To Balance The Game We Need Enemy Level Cap . Nothing More Nothing Less

[AMDMAD]

I see tons of posts that try to "balance" the game by nerfing weapon/ warframes or even removing entirely some mods like serration or hornet strike claiming "power creep" .However they fail to regognize the real problem which are the endless leveling of the enemies .

 

With endless leveling they have endless armor/health as well that creates all problems since our weapons as well have to have endless scaling  damage to counter which creates an endless paradox .

 

What my simple suggestion is make the enemies have a cap around 100~150 (every number i will use is an example and not necerily realistic in game ) which would have lets say 1000 armor/health (ferrite or alloy) thus then we can categorize the frames / weapons / mods  etc . If a weapon fully moded  vs heavy grineer and is able to kill it at a max level (150) with 4 magazines (250 damage each) we have a better perspective and grasp on how to have and balance end game weapons and low end weapons.

 

So lets say a high end weapon fully moded can take an enemy with 3~6 mags then it is clasified as a high end weapon ,7~10 mags then it is a mid tier weapon and 10+ mags it is a low tier weapon. With that we can balance the place of each weapon and make them belong somewhere instead of being all over the place .However the many varieties of each Faction makes the maters quite complicated and i believe it should be tonned down in order for that to be achieved .

 

Kinda same logic can be used to balance the frames based on the damage they are /element they can be buffed or nerfed . However because the frames want to be general usefull thus they will get lower damage / health etc when  in low missions and higher damage / health etc at maximum level  . That could also be used in some extend in weapons as well that if you are in lower level it will lower its damage like in Guild Wars 2

 

Tl:DR : making the enemies have acap can make the weapons have a cap effectivnes to each faction making each weapon balanced and serving a purpose which can further copied by frames by altering some parameters

Edited January 13, 2015 by AMDMAD

[Rakshal]

1+ Having a level cap on enemies will allow DE to balance the game more accurately.

[OniDax]

Yep, this. Also, if enemies are level 40, then warframes and weapons should get to level 40. As for frame balancing, Excalibur is supposed to be the "balanced" frame, right? Then when it comes to health, shields, armor, and speed, balance all frames against Excalibur's stats - meaning each frame has stats above AND below Excalibur's stats. That's true balance.

[VoidPunch]

This is an interesting idea but part of what makes endless missions fun is the fact that the enemies get infinitely stronger but maybe it could work.

 

I have to disagree with the difference between factions. I like how fighting them and the damage types used are different because when damage 1.0 was boring and made only certain weapon types good.

Edited January 13, 2015 by HandsOfnArtist

[AMDMAD]

This is an interesting idea but part of what makes endless missions fun is the fact that the enemies get infinitely stronger

I dont say they wont stronger that they will get a max level at some point . If they reach max level by 40 min ~ 60 min they will be fairly strong + you can challenge yourself using lower rank weapons since now they are in categories

[OniDax]

This is an interesting idea but part of what makes endless missions fun is the fact that the enemies get infinitely stronger

 

Why should they? In what world does this make sense? For me, what's the point of the Tenno if the Grineer and Corpus are so much stronger than them? What's special about the Tenno that they hunt them, trying to understand their power, if we have Grineer/Corpus that have weapons, armor, health, and shields stronger than the Tenno? What good is Tenno ability when the Grineer and Corpus have Eximus that best frames like Frost and Ember at their own AoE attacks? I'd rather be swarmed by enemies than face enemies that are so much better than the Tenno just for the sake of difficulty.

[SafeguardSanakan]

Yep, this. Also, if enemies are level 40, then warframes and weapons should get to level 40. As for frame balancing, Excalibur is supposed to be the "balanced" frame, right? Then when it comes to health, shields, armor, and speed, balance all frames against Excalibur's stats - meaning each frame has stats above AND below Excalibur's stats. That's true balance.

For the most part though, being above level on enemies (especially once you get some mods, or have good weapons) is like kicking puppies.

 

We don't need to be level 40 to kick level 40 enemy buns.

[Kasumi-]

Technically, we already do have an enemy level cap.

 

 

But really, nobody's gotten that far outside of Breeding Grounds.

[AMDMAD]

This is an interesting idea but part of what makes endless missions fun is the fact that the enemies get infinitely stronger but maybe it could work.

 

I have to disagree with the difference between factions. I like how fighting them and the damage types used are different because when damage 1.0 was boring and made only certain weapon types good.

I dont say unify them all factions to one damage but rather its faction will have its own weakness . Corpus will Have Magnetic/Toxic , Grineer Corrosive / Radiation and infested corrosive . However the difrence will be that the Heavy enemies will have their own unifies damage aka lets say corrosive while lower unities have radiation weakness to be more clear what is what instead of having 2 very difrent elements from 2 very heavy enemies

[AMDMAD]

Technically, we already do have an enemy level cap.

 

 

But really, nobody's gotten that far outside of Breeding Grounds.

That is an imposible level cap and it excists jsut because

[NinjaSnipe11]

If enemies did not scale in endless gamemodes then there would be no reason to have to leave besides nothing more than your own boredom. This has always been the idea of endless gamemodes in most games. And before you say "just because everyone else is doing  it doesn't mean we should" maybe think the reason all those other games have near impossible to infinite scaling is because its a good system that prevents a unholy amount of reward and resources. This is balance, taking this away however, would get what you are describing now.

 

So OP, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with all your points.

Edited January 14, 2015 by NinjaSnipe11

[AMDMAD]

For the most part though, being above level on enemies (especially once you get some mods, or have good weapons) is like kicking puppies.

 

We don't need to be level 40 to kick level 40 enemy buns.

Just try to find how the balance on Guild Wars 2 works  and you will understand what i am saying . Lets say a despair maxed has 3k corrosive vs 150 level enemies while vs 30 level enemies will be 300 .However  it will be modded excactly the same

[Jahadaya]

While I agree, we should also have the +base damage mods (Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, Point Blank, etc.) removed and integrated into the weapon's base stats as you level them up. They simply take up a mod slot and mod points, and kill build variety and different playstyles. 

[AMDMAD]

While I agree, we should also have the +base damage mods (Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, Point Blank, etc.) removed and integrated into the weapon's base stats as you level them up. They simply take up a mod slot and mod points, and kill build variety and different playstyles. 

Define diffrent playstyles? What would you able to build if those did not block your way? You can always build crit / status or damage .i dont see how they block anything. Care to explain?

Edited January 14, 2015 by AMDMAD

[Jahadaya]

Define diffrent playstyles? What would you able to build if those did not block your way? You can always build crit / status or damage .i dont see how they block anything. Care to explain?

They are essential to every build and take up a mod slot for no reason as they are just simply "+MOAR DAMAGE" mods. The idea of replacing them with conditional mods like Rebecca said on stream 44 was great.

[AMDMAD]

They are essential to every build and take up a mod slot for no reason as they are just simply "+MOAR DAMAGE" mods. The idea of replacing them with conditional mods like Rebecca said on stream 44 was great.

Maybe if had the system i suggest or something similar they would not b necessary . However atm they excist for better or worse

Edited January 14, 2015 by AMDMAD

[Cynaris]

This is an interesting idea but part of what makes endless missions fun is the fact that the enemies get infinitely stronger but maybe it could work.

 

I have to disagree with the difference between factions. I like how fighting them and the damage types used are different because when damage 1.0 was boring and made only certain weapon types good.

Endless missions are endless because there is no set endgoal, you go as long as you want.

 

However you can't scale unlike your enemies, which makes the game able to reach a certain point where you are pretty much dead, even if you turn on your head.

 

That should not happen in ANY game.

 

Warframe needs a cap that should be hard to reach, but still farmable if a capable group is reaching it.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Cynaris

[AMDMAD]

Endless missions are endless because there is no set endgoal, you go as long as you want.

 

However you can't scale unlike your enemies, which makes the game able to reach a certain point where you are pretty much dead, even if you turn on your head.

 

That should not happen in ANY game.

 

Warframe needs a cap that should be hard to reach, but still farmable if a capable group is reaching it.

Yeah but something in a logical time like 60 min and not like 7 hours or more

[Cynaris]

Yeah but something in a logical time like 60 min and not like 7 hours or more

Um, no. Rotations exist for a reason. You can get your stuff in 60m or 7hours, let people go for 7 hours if they want, the only real benefit for them is XP at that point, or rep.

[ENIAK_Prime]

you can challenge yourself using lower rank weapons since now they are in categories

This is one thing a lot of people (gamers AND game devs) don't understand about games. Ultimately, the decision to undertake a challenge should be entirely up to the player, and not something that is forced upon them by factors in the game beyond their control.

Players should ABSOLUTELY be given the ability to scale alongside their enemies in terms of stats. There should NEVER be an arbitrary gap in strength between the player and enemies of the same level, regardless of who's favor it's in. If the player is stronger than his enemies, it should only be because he put forth the time and effort to MAKE himself stronger, and if the player is weaker than his enemies, it should only be because he did NOT prepare himself thusly, whether by accident or on purpose (for the challenge).

 

Right now, not only does WarFrame create mandatory gaps in strength between the player and the enemy in favor of their enemy, but this gap increases as the player ascends through levels of difficulty, which is insane. This kind of scaling is appealing only a special kind of player who is both masochistic enough to enjoy it, and immature enough to brag about it (the kind of players that give games like CoD and Halo a very bad name). And to be perfectly clear, I'm not even talking about Endless Missions here. This is just something you can notice about the game IN GENERAL.

Bravo to the OP for pointing out this issue. I made a huge topic about a lot of things that I felt were wrong with WarFrame (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/360755-what-is-warframe-really-about) and that particular issue hadn't occurred to me at all, despite it making perfect sense.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Soldatto

[oinkah]

Interesting.

But then why have enemy levels to begin with? Aside from that cheesy feeling when stomping mercury with maxed gear, it doesn't add anything to the game. Beginner planets already have lower enemy variety with dangerous ones excluded. Earth has more variety, but all enemies there are "Frontier" subtype, which can be made weaker than regular ones. They have unique models, so it makes more sense than adding lower number next to their name.

This is expanding OP idea to it's logical conclusion. But since devs are about to dispose of Serration, it's worth consideration.

Edited January 14, 2015 by oinkah

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

I see tons of posts that try to "balance" the game by nerfing weapon/ warframes or even removing entirely some mods like serration or hornet strike claiming "power creep" .However they fail to regognize the real problem which are the endless leveling of the enemies .

 

With endless leveling they have endless armor/health as well that creates all problems since our weapons as well have to have endless scaling  damage to counter which creates an endless paradox .

 

What my simple suggestion is make the enemies have a cap around 100~150 (every number i will use is an example and not necerily realistic in game ) which would have lets say 1000 armor/health (ferrite or alloy) thus then we can categorize the frames / weapons / mods  etc . If a weapon fully moded  vs heavy grineer and is able to kill it at a max level (150) with 4 magazines (250 damage each) we have a better perspective and grasp on how to have and balance end game weapons and low end weapons.

 

So lets say a high end weapon fully moded can take an enemy with 3~6 mags then it is clasified as a high end weapon ,7~10 mags then it is a mid tier weapon and 10+ mags it is a low tier weapon. With that we can balance the place of each weapon and make them belong somewhere instead of being all over the place .However the many varieties of each Faction makes the maters quite complicated and i believe it should be tonned down in order for that to be achieved .

 

Kinda same logic can be used to balance the frames based on the damage they are /element they can be buffed or nerfed . However because the frames want to be general usefull thus they will get lower damage / health etc when  in low missions and higher damage / health etc at maximum level  . That could also be used in some extend in weapons as well that if you are in lower level it will lower its damage like in Guild Wars 2

 

Tl:DR : making the enemies have acap can make the weapons have a cap effectivnes to each faction making each weapon balanced and serving a purpose which can further copied by frames by altering some parameters

Sounds right to me.

[Ashnal]

*snip*

How about instead of removing enemy scaling, we just pick a level as a balance point?

There is no need to remove the ability for enemies to scale infinitely, only to pick a point you want to balance around with the caveat that anything past that is "your mileage may vary."

 

You can achieve what you want by simply picking a level that would be the "level cap" balancing towards that, and not actually capping the level. No harm, no foul. No angry players that love endless missions, balance achieved.

[DSpite]

Players should ABSOLUTELY be given the ability to scale alongside their enemies in terms of stats. There should NEVER be an arbitrary gap in strength between the player and enemies of the same level, regardless of who's favor it's in. If the player is stronger than his enemies, it should only be because he put forth the time and effort to MAKE himself stronger, and if the player is weaker than his enemies, it should only be because he did NOT prepare himself thusly, whether by accident or on purpose (for the challenge).

 

 

 

Really? Because I'm pretty sure that if you hole yourself up in a bunker with high tech guns and the enemy keeps losing units, then also loses a few tanks - god knows how that could happen - they would shrug and nuke the place from orbit. If THAT also failed, then probably getting the local Star to go Nova might be the next step, all other life in the system be damned.

 

I don't give a rats tail how strong you think you should be, "infinite escalation" means that the units coming against you are only SHAPED like people. Last time I looked, Superman is also shaped like a person, but regardless of how "prepared" you are, you can't beat him. And before you say "but Kriptonite", you should remember that he can hit you with a thrown rock from orbit, THAT is the entire point, that being if "you" can prepare, so can the damn enemy when they scale high enough, and when they have scaled enough, you WILL always lose.

 

Enemies in this game don't scale for challenge sake, they do it to stop people farming endlessly, which they try and do, constantly, by exploiting every weakness in the game and AI they can find.

[AMDMAD]

Um, no. Rotations exist for a reason. You can get your stuff in 60m or 7hours, let people go for 7 hours if they want, the only real benefit for them is XP at that point, or rep.

No i meant that the enemys will reach max level (lets say 150) in those 60 min. However that does not mean you wont be able to do 7 hours if you want but enemies simply wont scale from 60 min and onwards