Why Were Syndicate Effects Basically Nerfed? :/

[XxCurtennoxX]

Why were they nerfed in the recent patch? I didn't see anything wrong with them before! Whilst i disagree that weapons that use the effects are "unusable", i definitely personally feel that making it scale off base energy is a bit odd. Is this something to do with cutting back on the amount of energy we gain and therefore the amount of abilities we can spam? 

NOTE: This is my personal opinion. Please no arguing if you think i'm wrong. Don't want this to turn into a argument thread! Otherwise please discuss :P

[Imaru]

Because they were far too strong. 

 

Now, like warframe mods, they scale off of base stats, not max stats so they are more in line with the rest of the mods in the game. 

[Rydian]

Didn't the other effects work off of base and these worked off of total, and they were changed to work off of base like the others do?

At least I think that's how it went.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Rydian

[R34LM]

No idea why it was changed. Maybe it was to nerf Synoid without going back on their original damage buff. But this also means that blight and entropy effects on any weapon is rather lackluster. 25% of 100 or 150 is rubbish, compared to what we were getting originally. It'll create the illusion of worthlessness.

Edited January 15, 2015 by R34LM

[SquirmyBurrito]

Because they were far too strong. 

 

Now, like warframe mods, they scale off of base stats, not max stats so they are more in line with the rest of the mods in the game. 

 

They were too strong, now they're too weak. Not everything needs to/should scale off base stats.

 

Didn't the other effects work off of base and these worked off of total, and they were changed to work off of base like the others do?

At least I think that's how it went.

 

According to the wiki they work off max stats. No idea if that's true as I dropped my other syndicate weapons as soon as the revive bug got fixed.

[XxCurtennoxX]

25 energy from 100 base energy is pretty terrible, but it's still a nice little bonus from the Synoid Gammacor i guess. Honestly i'd have preferred a lower percentage off of Maximum Energy, rather than 25% off base. Maybe something like 20% of max, or something similar. It's at least a bit better than it currently is. If my calculations are correct at least.

[Rydian]

They were too strong, now they're too weak. Not everything needs to/should scale off base stats.

 

 

According to the wiki they work off max stats. No idea if that's true as I dropped my other syndicate weapons as soon as the revive bug got fixed.

Ah, looks like it's the buffs that work off of base, not the restore, that's what I was thinking of.

[Rakshal]

Because they were far too strong. 

 

Now, like warframe mods, they scale off of base stats, not max stats so they are more in line with the rest of the mods in the game.

^

[taiiat]

because getting 200 Energy every 15-20 seconds (or less) for free is rather silly.

[NalkorRN]

because getting 200 Energy every 15-20 seconds (or less) for free is rather silly.

Sooo, about EV Trin's....

[taiiat]

Sooo, about EV Trin's....

at the very least that requires Mods and theoretical player interaction to gain that benefit.

[SquirmyBurrito]

at the very least that requires Mods and theoretical player interaction to gain that benefit.

 

Weapons attaining the proc via augments require mods, and killing requires player interaction... I'm not seeing a valid argument here.

[taiiat]

Weapons attaining the proc via augments require mods, and killing requires player interaction... I'm not seeing a valid argument here.

the Mod is a 3 Rank Mod. inconsequential investment.

you're already killing Enemies either way. this just comes along for the ride, for free.

[CodenameJR]

I'm also disturbed by this change. I must say it took me by surprise (and it wasn't a good one).

 

I can't figure a reason for DE to nerf Entropy and Blight and not the rest of the other Syndicate effects. I know Synoid Gammacor is a strong weapon, but nerfing what's supossed to be high-end weapons won't solve the problem more than adding real high-end challenges to use such weapons (I've been thinking about an epic fight of 8+ Tennos vs an absurdly-hard-to-take-down-without-coordination-and-powerful-or-functional-gear-boss). Besides, people is still going to say SG is "still too strong" (as if getting strong in a videogame was a sinful and uncommon feature on them).

 

The only thing I can think of is such a sudden and radical change forces all my caster frames to abandon the QT+Primed Flow+weapon with either Blight or Entropy effect build (which was fun, original, not easy to attain, and wasn't overpowered at all since it barely helped me reach 60 minutes on T3 surv. anyway) and stick to regular combinations of health+armor or health+shield, killing customization in the process, and we all know one of the best features of these kind of games is customization.

Edited January 15, 2015 by CodenameJR

[Tostov]

-snip-

Primed Flow/QT builds still work very well. Flow/QT builds still worked very well before syndicate weapons, and their associated syndicate burst effects. Your caster didn't need this energy restore to actually function, ever, it was just a nice bonus you got.

Look, Imma be honest, I never actually realised that the blight/entropy effect didn't only restore 25 energy. I thought it worked fine under the assumption it restored 25 energy, especially considering pretty much everyone is modded so their ultimate only costs 25 anyway. 

The reason why the other's weren't also nerfed? Simple. Because Blight/Entrophy, with quick thinking, was a larger restore on a wider variety of frames than any of the other effects were. We're looking at just under 400 effective health (without accounting for damage resist), versus about 300 on mag and volt for sequences' sheild restore, and 150~270ish HP on all the other frames for the HP restore effects. Not only that, but unlike HP, the energy could be used for other stuff, like getting kills if you weren't strapped for survivalness.

Sure, it's a lot worse now, but you're still looking at about 100 addtional HP from quick thinking each time it procs, and with flow/primed flow, you can still build up an absurd energy pool in a short amount of time, simply by shooting/cutting things, even before you take into account orb drops.

[SandwitchPrime]

because we totally need that 25 energy

[Tostov]

because we totally need that 25 energy

As I said, with the right build, 25 energy is a room clear on anything other than survival past 20 min, thanks to super efficient ultimate.

Also, if it's 25% of base, you're actually looking at 37.5 energy on most frames.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Tostov

[LtZefar]

As I said, with the right build, 25 energy is a room clear on anything other than survival past 20 min, thanks to super efficient ultimate.

Also, if it's 25% of base, you're actually looking at 37.5 energy on most frames.

 

But on anything less than 20 minute survival you won't proc that Syndicate effect because you need like 1k EXP and Elite mobs don't pop up all that often.

Also you'll have more energy from killing enemies and picking up energy orbs. The energy it gives now is utterly worthless.

 

Oh and running full efficiency build doesn't work on all characters and the range is sometimes affected as well. Not to mention if you already got that good energy rates the weapon effect will be useless as all other energy restores will give you more than the skill costs.

 

Like come on, it is worthless. Fact.

[CodenameJR]

Primed Flow/QT builds still work very well. Flow/QT builds still worked very well before syndicate weapons, and their associated syndicate burst effects. Your caster didn't need this energy restore to actually function, ever, it was just a nice bonus you got.

Look, Imma be honest, I never actually realised that the blight/entropy effect didn't only restore 25 energy. I thought it worked fine under the assumption it restored 25 energy, especially considering pretty much everyone is modded so their ultimate only costs 25 anyway. 

The reason why the other's weren't also nerfed? Simple. Because Blight/Entrophy, with quick thinking, was a larger restore on a wider variety of frames than any of the other effects were. We're looking at just under 400 effective health (without accounting for damage resist), versus about 300 on mag and volt for sequences' sheild restore, and 150~270ish HP on all the other frames for the HP restore effects. Not only that, but unlike HP, the energy could be used for other stuff, like getting kills if you weren't strapped for survivalness.

Sure, it's a lot worse now, but you're still looking at about 100 addtional HP from quick thinking each time it procs, and with flow/primed flow, you can still build up an absurd energy pool in a short amount of time, simply by shooting/cutting things, even before you take into account orb drops.

 

I'm not saying Flow+QT got totally ruined by this, not at all. Flow+QT will still work, but will hardly replace Vitality+Redirection completely like it was doing on my Nova. And I'm almost completely sure you know it's not possible to stack all those 4 without making Nova lose enough room to efficiently arrange her abbilities as to provide some CC for her team on missions that do require such survivability.

 

Sure, I won't care about survivability on Apollodorus, but we all know, and even DE has accepted this fact, that the most rewarding missions on the game right now are the high tier endless ones. And since we can't get T4 keys easily anymore (and sometimes, not even T3 keys, as not too many people farm them nowadays), you'll be forced to stay longer and longer to farm whatever you might want from one single key use, which becomes harder and harder if your weapons start losing efficiency fast and your frames can't survive the hordes of enemies properly. How does all this have any relationship with the main topic of this thread? Simply put, on frames that can't rely too much on their shields, armor or health, using energy instead as a sort of HP bar sounds centainly like the best bet (since an important amount of the weaker ones are the ones with the best energy stats). Restoring energy with the previous effect of Blight and Entropy could help you in many situations, without turning you into an undestructible entity. Now, since this update and considering how strong enemies can hit at high levels, restoring 37 energy and being forced to cast 1 ult spell and remain with 12 left to tank is simply not enough (an trust me, whoever ventured long enough into the void knows this can happen very frequently). Yes, we can still use consumables, but there are certain situtation on which you'd love to be able to stand in position shooting to replenish your energy, yet if you do so you'll get killed (I'm not completely against consumables on this game, but I think the way they are used goes totally against the fast-paced spirit of the action genre). And in those situations, the previous Blight and Entropy effects fit better.

 

Not to mention restoring HP through the other syndicate effects on frames with high HP+armor gives an important amount of effective health anyway, which won't be consumed to use a power that might get you out of a dangerous situation, nor will be affected by any eximus aura or ancient disruptor hug.

 

Taking everything I've pointed out into consideration , it's obvious that DE decided to reduce the effectiveness of the Blight and Entropy procs in order to fulfill the dreams of those who wanted a nerfhammer over the Synoid Gammacor, and now the Rakta Ballistica, the Embolist and some other weapons which were favored by those synd effect feel useless again.

 

I can't do anything else but to remind that people asking for nerfs end up screwing up current features they didn't know that would be affected. The only way to balance things up is solving the issue with the end mission rewards on endless missions being much more rewarding than those on other missions types (something DE is actually caring about, as stated on the Devstream 44) and adding really challenging high-end content on which the traditionally called OP weapons would be finally welcomed without any grudge harboured against them.

 

TL; DR: No, seriously, READ IT, I promise it makes sense, at least a little bit.

[HibikiGanaha]

Rakta Ballistica was going to be too op once they released the buff for it next patch

 

lol could you imagine though

[SquirmyBurrito]

the Mod is a 3 Rank Mod. inconsequential investment.

you're already killing Enemies either way. this just comes along for the ride, for free.

 

Energy Vampire isn't even a mod anymore, it is even LESS of an investment than a weapon augment. Still not seeing a valid argument here.

Edited January 17, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito

[taiiat]

it is even LESS of an investment than a weapon augment.

you require atleast +100% Power Strength for Energy Vampire to give you 200 Energy per Cast.

 

that means 3 Power Strength Mods, and either one of the 10 Rank Mods needs to be fully upgraded or each need to be moderately upgraded.

 

 

an Augment that does the same thing automatically, takes one slot and costs 1,250,000 XP accruement.

a Weapon that does the same thing automatically, costs zero Mod Slots and costs 5,000,000 XP accruement.

 

an 'XP investment' is not very significant. just a bar to fill that literally doing anything in the game will add to automatically.

those XP counts are not particularly significant. you can almost buy a Augment Mod for the same XP it takes to level up a Warframe.

[SquirmyBurrito]

you require atleast +100% Power Strength for Energy Vampire to give you 200 Energy per Cast.

 

that means 3 Power Strength Mods, and either one of the 10 Rank Mods needs to be fully upgraded or each need to be moderately upgraded.

 

 

an Augment that does the same thing automatically, takes one slot and costs 1,250,000 XP accruement.

a Weapon that does the same thing automatically, costs zero Mod Slots and costs 5,000,000 XP accruement.

 

an 'XP investment' is not very significant. just a bar to fill that literally doing anything in the game will add to automatically.

those XP counts are not particularly significant. you can almost buy a Augment Mod for the same XP it takes to level up a Warframe.

 

You required flow to get over 65 energy per proc pre-nerf. And you only needed two power strength mods to achieve over +100% power strength, not three like you claimed.

 

And assuming I'm not forgetting anything, even a Loki Prime with maxed Prime Flow equipped would only have a maxed energy pool of 743, and 25% of 743 is only 185.75... That's one slot taken up on your weapon and one slot taken up on your frame. Whereas Trinity need only equip two power strength mods and she can restore more energy. To match the proc's restored amount of energy you could actually just equip a one from the top Blind Rage and you'd end up restoring 6.25 energy more than the proc (192 total). The amount of mod slots consumed ends up being less (one), as does the amount of mod capacity used (15 vs 18 if the augment is left unranked), and unlike the augment EV restores energy to all teammates within its AoE.

 

Weapons with inherent blight/entropy: Limit limit your choice in available secondary weapons, and discourage use of frames that do not have large energy pools.

EV: Limits your choice in frame (only Trinity can use the ability) if you're attempting to be the one casting the ability. Does not limit your choice in weapons and will also benefit teammates that are within its AoE. 

-------------------------------EV is less of an investment as far as I can tell.

 

Still not seeing a valid argument.

Edited January 17, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito