Efficiency Is Inevitable; Why Removing Serration Won't Fix Anything

[ProfessorZero]

Personally I understand the desire to remove the Serration+Split chamber mods because you always put them on. You get more value out of increasing puncture damage by 165% and slapping on a fire mod then just making a viral combo (regardless of the 75% buff to grineer). And since it factors in multiplicatively with the element mods, it reduces your potential DPS by around 60% (assuming you don't have heavy calibur). Remove the multishot mod and your total base DPS is down to about 20%-ish of its potential. Yes you can slap on hella elements, but even if you slap on a full 8 elemental mods, you damage is going to be so much LESS then it would have been that it seems silly to even consider doing so. 

What I've never understood is why ranking up weapons only gives you more mod capacity (let me rephrase, I get it, I just think that its not the best strategy). If our multishot chance went up 3% per level, and our base DPS by 5.5% per level, it would accomplish the same effect but now you can make the argument that ok fast hands gives more DPS then that last elemental mod, or the additional puncture mod here is better for your grineer build, but not on the corpus one, that needs shred or speed trigger. Hell you could have it so that everytime you forma'd, the percent increase per level would be higher, rewarding players for taking the time to grind a weapon 6 times even if it doesn't need to be. 

That said "conditional" weapon damage mods sound like you want to RNG how much damage you do. You might notice that besides the "alert/not alert/patroling" modes of enemies, theres not much about enemies state in warframe. Im imagining a mod that does triple damage on enemies with bleed procs. Fine you can put that on slash weapons, but it also means you wouldn't dare put any elemental mods since that limits the amount of slash procs. Now if every single enemy was nerfed back to mercury, then yeah, a build like that could work, otherwise you've just let RNGesus determine how much damage you do, and he is not a merciful lord. 

There will always ALWAYS be "staple mods". Mods that if you don't bring, you are silly, like if you don't bring toxic to corpus maps, whats wrong with you. And there will always be mods that if you do bring, like say magnetic to grineer, you are 3 types of ignorant. But lets look at the void, enemies of all types. I know corrosive is the damage to have cuz armor, but if you have magnetic damage. its not like theres nothing there that magnetic doesn't get a bonus against. Not as useful as corrosive, but still useful. The difference between that and say split chamber, Is that there is literally NOTHING. NOTHING. that is anywhere as close to in value as it (except serration/heavy cal). If you don't bring SC you are SO far in the hole. you've lost like 45% of your status chance, your crit chance, and your overall damage. At least magnetic helps you get rid of nullifers, drones, crewmen, and moas in the void. Corrosive maybe king, but all the other elementals are at least in the royal family. With SC, Ser, and HC, they are the gods and we don't even have any demi-gods or high priests to compare them to. Even on Crit weapons, which literally say "hey, elements are not the most important damage suppliment" You put these mods on. 
Edit: forgot a word or two

Edited January 21, 2015 by ProfessorZero

[ProfessorZero]

I'm arguing for the removal or drastic alteration of Serration/Pressure Point/etc because every weapon has to have those mods in order to be effective. I'm not super concerned if people always use crit mods on crit weapons, because there are plenty of viable non-crit weapons to choose from. It might be interesting to have a number of different conditional crit mods, conditional status effect mods, and so on, but my primary concern is Serration and the rest.

 

Mods that are staples for given playstyles, or even given weapon types, isn't a huge problem. Mods that are staples for every weapon are a problem.

Im with you, but melee is actually the least "broken" catagory when it comes to this. Yes you have to put on pressure point, but you don't put on the corrupted mod unless you put on fury or it has silly high attack speed, and if you forma even once or twice on most weapons you can add the little utility mods that you want. The most breakage occurs on pistols, which have 3-4 different "MUST" for dps mods. followed by rifles which have 2-3.

[Edgedemon]

If I had an extra mod slot because I wasn't forced to use Serration, most of my weapons would have a different mod per weapon as its replacement. Serration is not a choice; it is a requirement, and without it builds would be more varied if even just slightly.

like which? a single mod more wont drastically change your build and we both know that an elemental will be there in no time

[Edgedemon]

False.

 

The rest of the conversation about removing serration is replacing it with conditional damage mods. As in, you don't get your damage unless you meet a condition. Headshot, unaware target, hit from behind/beside, already proc'd target, CC'd target, multiple targets hit with the same shot, multiple hits without missing between them, etc. etc. Maybe leaving serration in the game heavily nerfed as a baseline of free damage if no other conditions are met.

 

but head shots already deal more damage, same goes for stealth multiplier, with event mods all weapons are status machines, multiple targets same shots is a plain old ragdoll, CC on shot is the blast elemental combo which few use because no extra damage, it is ALL already in game, the problem is not that you can't choose is you don't want to choose.

 

and half of the supporters of those changes only want to avoid the effort of leveling those r10 mods anyway.

[motorfirebox]

but head shots already deal more damage, same goes for stealth multiplier, with event mods all weapons are status machines, multiple targets same shots is a plain old ragdoll, CC on shot is the blast elemental combo which few use because no extra damage, it is ALL already in game, the problem is not that you can't choose is you don't want to choose.

 

and half of the supporters of those changes only want to avoid the effort of leveling those r10 mods anyway.

He's not talking about mods that grant CC, he's talking about mods that grant extra damage against CC'd targets. Same with the proc, multiple targets same shot, and so on.

 

As for ranking up mods, as a habitual Nyx user, I'd happily rank up an r10 mod that grants bonus damage against CC'd targets. As a habitual Dread user, I'd also happily rank up an r10 mod that grants bonus damage when I hit multiple targets with a single arrow.

[VKhaun]

but head shots already deal more damage, same goes for stealth multiplier, with event mods all weapons are status machines, multiple targets same shots is a plain old ragdoll, CC on shot is the blast elemental combo which few use because no extra damage, it is ALL already in game, the problem is not that you can't choose is you don't want to choose.

 

and half of the supporters of those changes only want to avoid the effort of leveling those r10 mods anyway.

 

The reason I "don't choose" is because base damage from higher tier weapons wipes all the enemies off the face of the planet without needing "want to choose". Which brings us to the topic at hand. Can we / How do we break this meta of doing nothing but stacking.

 

My answer is to use conditional mods so players "HAVE TO choose" how they're going to use a weapon if they want to get maximum DPS, because not using conditional damage mods or not meeting the conditions of them would no longer be maximum DPS.

Edited January 21, 2015 by VKhaun

[vaugahn]

This thread is based on flawed assumptions. The assumption that paper DPS has to be tied to mods, and that choice is impossible. Both are false.

 

Imagine if weapon damage was totally independent of the mod system. You could shuffle around elements and stuff, or maybe add a bit of multishot, but mods did not change damage profiles. Sure, someone could say they have a "best" build, but is that build really better than any other builds? All the builds are dealing essentially the same damage, after all.

[sanj66]

The reason I "don't choose" is because base damage from higher tier weapons wipes all the enemies off the face of the planet without needing "want to choose". Which brings us to the topic at hand. Can we / How do we break this meta of doing nothing but stacking.

 

My answer is to use conditional mods so players "HAVE TO choose" how they're going to use a weapon if they want to get maximum DPS, because not using conditional damage mods or not meeting the conditions of them would no longer be maximum DPS.

you do realize this is just more words to say a staple mod, i.e. they have to use x mod to get max dps. isnt that the same as they must use serration to get max dps, sure it got a condition now but it would still generate staples, and like i pointed out, due to a weapon type or firing mechanic etc, these would not cater to all play type and may indeed force players to use a specific condition that they dont want to use but must use. creating a staple and a forced playstyle, two things people claim is the problem atm.

[VKhaun]

you do realize this is just more words to say a staple mod, i.e. they have to use x mod to get max dps. isnt that the same as they must use serration to get max dps, sure it got a condition now but it would still generate staples, and like i pointed out, due to a weapon type or firing mechanic etc, these would not cater to all play type and may indeed force players to use a specific condition that they dont want to use but must use. creating a staple and a forced playstyle, two things people claim is the problem atm.

 

No I don't realize that. I thought I just explained the opposite on page 1 and I thought I did a darn good job of it. :/

[Xana_Skullsunder]

You can use whatever mods you want. Don't like serration don't use it. But don't complain about people using them.

 

This is a load of crap, and always has been. If you want to actually be a contributing member of the team, you need to do as much damage as you can. You can't afford anything less, because every other player is going for maximum damage too. So while you're plinking away with 10 damage a shot, some other guy is gonna steamroll your target with 300. Bam, you may as well not be in the mission, because another player just rendered you obsolete.

 

It does affect other people, and frankly you're blind if you can't see that.

[Edgedemon]

This is a load of crap, and always has been. If you want to actually be a contributing member of the team, you need to do as much damage as you can. You can't afford anything less, because every other player is going for maximum damage too. So while you're plinking away with 10 damage a shot, some other guy is gonna steamroll your target with 300. Bam, you may as well not be in the mission, because another player just rendered you obsolete.

 

It does affect other people, and frankly you're blind if you can't see that.

actually it only affects your ego but suit yourself

 

you are admitting you are aiming for max dps, and you will keep trying to get max dps even if serration is not the way to get max DPS, which only exchanges one required mod for another.

[motorfirebox]

you do realize this is just more words to say a staple mod, i.e. they have to use x mod to get max dps. isnt that the same as they must use serration to get max dps, sure it got a condition now but it would still generate staples, and like i pointed out, due to a weapon type or firing mechanic etc, these would not cater to all play type and may indeed force players to use a specific condition that they dont want to use but must use. creating a staple and a forced playstyle, two things people claim is the problem atm.

That assumes that only a few conditional mods will be desirable, and that most people won't be able to find a mod that suits their preferred play style. With the 50+ mods being suggested, that seems unlikely to me.

[00zau]

That assumes that only a few conditional mods will be desirable, and that most people won't be able to find a mod that suits their preferred play style. With the 50+ mods being suggested, that seems unlikely to me.

Regardless, the group of mods as a whole won't fix anything; instead of slapping serration on every gun, you'll HAVE to slap one of the new mods on instead. It won't help build diversity; you'll have not!serration and the same 7 other mods you had before. The only difference is that now we'll have to juggle 10 different versions of not!serration (and max them). No one's going to start using utility mods, they're just going to go on stacking the 8 best damage mods for the given gun. There will be a 'best' build for every gun, still.

[motorfirebox]

The best solution I've seen for that is to only allow one Serration / !Serration mod per weapon. Maybe make an aura/stance slot for it.

 

Another option, I suppose, though significantly more complex, might be to add conditional damage to utility mods. For instance, a reload speed mod might give +reload speed and a short-duration damage boost after reloading. I'm not sure if I like that or not, just throwing it out as a possibility.

[00zau]

The best solution I've seen for that is to only allow one Serration / !Serration mod per weapon. Maybe make an aura/stance slot for it.

 

Another option, I suppose, though significantly more complex, might be to add conditional damage to utility mods. For instance, a reload speed mod might give +reload speed and a short-duration damage boost after reloading. I'm not sure if I like that or not, just throwing it out as a possibility.

It'd be better to just make fast hands. magazine warp, etc into 'aura' mods that have their own slot and don't cost mod points. Utility simply can't compete with straight damage, so better to just make it so they don't have to compete at all and have their own space.

[motorfirebox]

That would just exacerbate the basic complaint even further. Instead of a handful of mods being effectively mandatory, there wouldn't be any deviation in mod loadout at all. Better to boil all direct damage increases on a weapon down to a single mod slot, and leave the rest open for utility and changing around the type of damage.

[00zau]

That would just exacerbate the basic complaint even further. Instead of a handful of mods being effectively mandatory, there wouldn't be any deviation in mod loadout at all. Better to boil all direct damage increases on a weapon down to a single mod slot, and leave the rest open for utility and changing around the type of damage.

There aren't enough utility mods, and not every weapon even needs them. 'Changing around the damage type' will be just as required as damage was; you'll spend as many mods as possible focusing your damage on the enemy you're facing.

[manub]

yes & no

 

yes serration/hornet strike is a simple system to amp damage on weapons

 

no, this is efficient if you have a fully upgraded/high lvl mod which takes a while considering the amount of cores/duplicates needed

meaning that new players have a more difficult access to/are cut of from part of the game unless they wait until they upgrade it enough or buy 1 with plat, which not everyone is rich enough to do (don't say they can trade, how many newbs have something someone would pay with plat or fully upgraded mods frankly?)

 

also munchkinism from the players will restrict the used builds true, but more variety will nevertheless occur in builds

 

integrating dmg amp to weapon mastery seems a simple & efficient to counter the current wall to me

[motorfirebox]

There aren't enough utility mods, and not every weapon even needs them. 'Changing around the damage type' will be just as required as damage was; you'll spend as many mods as possible focusing your damage on the enemy you're facing.

Every enemy faction has a number of different types of defenses spread across numerous mob types. Deciding which defenses to focus on defeating, on which weapon, requires far more individual player input than just slapping on as many damage mods as can fit.

[00zau]

Every enemy faction has a number of different types of defenses spread across numerous mob types. Deciding which defenses to focus on defeating, on which weapon, requires far more individual player input than just slapping on as many damage mods as can fit.

Except the decisions have already been made. Those decisions are made in the builds as they currently exist; you pick Corrosive  or Radiation + Viral for Grineer, Magnetic + Toxin for Corpus, Corrosive + Blast/Heat for Infested, and use either the Infested or Grineer build for Void. Maybe use straight Viral if your team runs 4x CP. There are currently only 8 slots on the weapon, and you can only have two elemental damage types (or three if you're base damage is a dual element). The "which defense should I focus on" is already a decision players have to make when they chose which damage mods, and in what order, when they're "just slapping on as many damage mods as can fit."

 

There will still be a "best" way to mod each weapon for a given faction, and it will be modding to maximize damage for the given faction, whether that's by slapping on a bunch of damage mods, or slapping on a bunch of mods to turn as much of your base damage to corrosive as possible. Fast Hands and Magazine Warp aren't going to supplant mods that will effect your damage against the other faction. They'd have to either remove damage-effecting mods entirely (along with punch-through and fire-rate, since those would become the new "wah, everyone is using the same mods, wah" mods), or they can just give us dedicated slots for utility mods. I'd love to use Fast Hands or whatever, but I'm not giving up damage for them. If there's a way to increase your damage, 99% of players will pick that option first. Period.

[Innocent_Flower]

I don't think the OP 'gets it'

 

one doesn't simply 'remove serration' one redoes the damage system in glorious balance and general improvement. 

[motorfirebox]

Except the decisions have already been made. Those decisions are made in the builds as they currently exist; you pick Corrosive  or Radiation + Viral for Grineer, Magnetic + Toxin for Corpus, Corrosive + Blast/Heat for Infested, and use either the Infested or Grineer build for Void. Maybe use straight Viral if your team runs 4x CP. There are currently only 8 slots on the weapon, and you can only have two elemental damage types (or three if you're base damage is a dual element). The "which defense should I focus on" is already a decision players have to make when they chose which damage mods, and in what order, when they're "just slapping on as many damage mods as can fit."

 

There will still be a "best" way to mod each weapon for a given faction, and it will be modding to maximize damage for the given faction, whether that's by slapping on a bunch of damage mods, or slapping on a bunch of mods to turn as much of your base damage to corrosive as possible. Fast Hands and Magazine Warp aren't going to supplant mods that will effect your damage against the other faction. They'd have to either remove damage-effecting mods entirely (along with punch-through and fire-rate, since those would become the new "wah, everyone is using the same mods, wah" mods), or they can just give us dedicated slots for utility mods. I'd love to use Fast Hands or whatever, but I'm not giving up damage for them. If there's a way to increase your damage, 99% of players will pick that option first. Period.

The current meta for damage type vs faction is based on several factors that would bee changed significantly, not the least of which is the fact that you currently have to stack elemental mods in order to gain damage. Other factors include slot availability and the maximum damage increase (right now it's we'll north of 400%; this change would put it south of 200%).

The lower damage would require much more care in selecting damage type; you might conceivably end up packing one weapon for dealing with trash and another for the boss. Removing the requirement to stack 3+ elemental mods means more damage types could be attractive. And the freed slots means you can put 2 or 3 utility mods without sacrificing dps.

Relegating utility mods to an aura slot would just put them in the same boat damage mods are in currently: there'd only ever be one good choice per weapon, ever. Why even have a mod system, at that point?

[sanj66]

The current meta for damage type vs faction is based on several factors that would bee changed significantly, not the least of which is the fact that you currently have to stack elemental mods in order to gain damage. Other factors include slot availability and the maximum damage increase (right now it's we'll north of 400%; this change would put it south of 200%).

The lower damage would require much more care in selecting damage type; you might conceivably end up packing one weapon for dealing with trash and another for the boss. Removing the requirement to stack 3+ elemental mods means more damage types could be attractive. And the freed slots means you can put 2 or 3 utility mods without sacrificing dps.

Relegating utility mods to an aura slot would just put them in the same boat damage mods are in currently: there'd only ever be one good choice per weapon, ever. Why even have a mod system, at that point?

you realize this can be compared to say damage 1.0? the only way to make elemental stacking less would be to revert to a flat element system and not a combo system, even so with event mods and variant mods such as nightmare mods, you do realize elements have up to 3 mods per element type, also like i pointed out this does not aid play style it forces players to play a certain way. what if i want my soma to be a boss killer but due to the constraints i must now relegate it to fodder mobs killer? what if i like running melee only, now i must carry multiple weapons and use them due to this idea. 

[Astrotrap]

I don't think the OP 'gets it'

 

one doesn't simply 'remove serration' one redoes the damage system in glorious balance and general improvement. 

Even if they do.

 

Everyone will still use the same mods, because that's still the best setup.

 

This is a game, there will always be min/maxers, and no nerfing OR "re-balancing" can change that.

[vaugahn]

Everyone will still use the same mods, because that's still the best setup.

 

Not necessarily true.