Efficiency Is Inevitable; Why Removing Serration Won't Fix Anything

[motorfirebox]

you realize this can be compared to say damage 1.0? the only way to make elemental stacking less would be to revert to a flat element system and not a combo system, even so with event mods and variant mods such as nightmare mods, you do realize elements have up to 3 mods per element type, also like i pointed out this does not aid play style it forces players to play a certain way. what if i want my soma to be a boss killer but due to the constraints i must now relegate it to fodder mobs killer? what if i like running melee only, now i must carry multiple weapons and use them due to this idea. 

I don't see how it's comparable to Damage 1.0 at all, nor do I see how it's forcing players to play a certain way—especially in comparison to the current "must have Serration and 3+ elemental mods" setup. All it's doing is removing the requirement to stack elemental damage on every weapon. I also don't see how these suggested changes would force any particular weapon into any particular role. The whole point of my idea of being able to swap damage types, rather than just stack more damage, is that you can reconfigure any weapon to have significant output of just about any damage type.

 

I don't think there'll be anyone forced to carry more weapons. It's still a tradeoff, since you have to decide if the specialized damage is worth swapping weapons. The most that can be said is that forgoing extra weapons is something to be done with care, but these ideas are intended to make that true for weapon selection and modding across the board.

 

Reducing damage increases to a single mod slot and using the rest of the slots to shape damage and gain utility increases player choice and customization. Reducing utility to a single mod slot decreases player choice and customization.

Edited January 22, 2015 by motorfirebox

[sanj66]

I don't see how it's comparable to Damage 1.0 at all, nor do I see how it's forcing players to play a certain way—especially in comparison to the current "must have Serration and 3+ elemental mods" setup. All it's doing is removing the requirement to stack elemental damage on every weapon. I also don't see how these suggested changes would force any particular weapon into any particular role. The whole point of my idea of being able to swap damage types, rather than just stack more damage, is that you can reconfigure any weapon to have significant output of just about any damage type.

 

I don't think there'll be anyone forced to carry more weapons. It's still a tradeoff, since you have to decide if the specialized damage is worth swapping weapons. The most that can be said is that forgoing extra weapons is something to be done with care, but these ideas are intended to make that true for weapon selection and modding across the board.

 

Reducing damage increases to a single mod slot and using the rest of the slots to shape damage and gain utility increases player choice and customization. Reducing utility to a single mod slot decreases player choice and customization.

it is comparable to damage 1.0 what you posted earlier, you yourself posted in the post i quoted where you said players would have to decide if yo mod for fodder mobs or bosses, that is forcing a style upon players, that is not diversifying player choices that is limiting weapon roles and by in large player roles depending on how they set up weapons, this also poses risk when pugging, as what if everyone ends up in a pugged group with only fodder mob set up on their weapons but they have a mini boss show up, or void vor? you have not seem to considered that, these are things you posted that i quoted earlier, also how do you propose to reduce damage mods to a single mod slot? you would either have to give guns innate elements, again limiting player choice, as what if my opticor gets ice damage but i want to go use it in an infested defense with my vauban? my style and preference is hampered, what would be the point of damage 2.0 if you have damage increase limited to a single mods slot, as you wont be able to build elemental combos, unless like i suggested weapons come with innate elements, but that limits play style and preference even more. what you are describing is a system that would work with damage 1.0. and yes it would force people to carry more weapons, as it is within each sect of opponents there are those that comprise of different weaknesses. how are you proposing to remove the need to stack elemental damage and reducing damage mod needs or slots to 1 slot while making hte weapon viable, non locked and impeding on play style, i would love to see how you are going to do that, as that would need a brand new damage system and brand new enemy scaling, and it would essentially render all the hard earned event mods some what useless as almost all are elemental damage types to stack damage or base damage type.

[motorfirebox]

I said that one "might conceivably" end up packing one weapon for trash and another for the boss. It's an option.

 

As for how to reduce damage to a single mod slot, it's like this: your Serration or Serration-like mod goes into an aura/stance slot (melee stances are altered to add Pressure Point's damage increase). Elemental and slash/impact/puncture mods are altered so that any damage they add to one damage type is subtracted from another damage type. Elemental mods would probably reduce regular damage by the same amount (spread equally across slash, impact, and puncture). A mod that adds puncture damage might subtract slash damage, and so on. You build elemental combos like normal.

Edited January 23, 2015 by motorfirebox

[00zau]

I said that one "might conceivably" end up packing one weapon for trash and another for the boss. It's an option.

 

As for how to reduce damage to a single mod slot, it's like this: your Serration or Serration-like mod goes into an aura/stance slot (melee stances are altered to add Pressure Point's damage increase). Elemental and slash/impact/puncture mods are altered so that any damage they add to one damage type is subtracted from another damage type. Elemental mods would probably reduce regular damage by the same amount (spread equally across slash, impact, and puncture). A mod that adds puncture damage might subtract slash damage, and so on. You build elemental combos like normal.

Thus the "muh deeps" build becomes

2-4 elemental mods to swing your damage heavily toward the 1-2 best elements or combo elements for a given faction

0-1 physical mods to swing the remaining physical damage to the best type for the faction you face (depending on if there's enough physical damage left to matter)

Some combination of punch through, fire rate, Ammo Mutation and crit mods (and the borderline for "crit viable" will get a lot lower; if you can't increase damage some other way, then anything with more than a 5%/1.5x crit profile will get crit mods slapped on it to claw back some more DPS).

Punch through, fire rate, and ammo restoration are the best options after damage. Especially since they actually get used already. The 2 fer 1 ability of multishot makes Shred a well used mod, at least. Firerate will be used to get more DPS, and the high usage of spamfire will make ammo mutation more important than ever.

 

Literally the only way you're going to get anyone to pick Fast Hands or Magazine Warp or the like is by removing every other option. Even if elemental and physical mods only change the damage balance, the fact that dual elements have 50-75% multipliers means that modding your damage type becomes your way of increasing damage. Reducing the number of mods will increase the usage of mods that are already in regular use, but it's not going to make pure utility come back. Fast Hands and Magazine Warp have so little effect on DPS (and will remain largely ineffective regardless of how much they get buffed on anything with better magazine/reload time ratio than the Vectis or Tigris) that they will not be chosen unless there are <8 mods that effect damage per shot, burst DPS, or effective DPS (punch through effectively multiplies DPS when hitting multiple targets).

 

Munchkins gunna munchkin, and the content will be balanced for the most effective, and most damage heavy, players. You can always live with a painful reload or small magazine or high recoil; if you don't do enough damage you're screwed. You can compensate for annoying traits, you can't compensate for having poor damage. No matter how you change the system, people will find the best way to use the system. Just like "there will always be a loot cave" there will always be a best way to build to farm said loot cave.

 

The best way to allow for some build diversity is to give us a slot dedicated to mods that don't matter. Recoil Reduction, Silencers, Reload, Magazine Size; the choice between them boils down to personal preference a lot more than damage; even if the DPS is technically lower with one than the other, the difference is negligible and people who like the 'worse' one better will not be making much of a sacrifice. They'll be brought if they don't have to compete with damage or damage!utility, and the decision on which one to use will be almost pure player preference.

Edited January 23, 2015 by 00zau

[(PSN)XxDaKiDD420]

If I had an extra mod slot because I wasn't forced to use Serration, most of my weapons would have a different mod per weapon as its replacement. Serration is not a choice; it is a requirement, and without it builds would be more varied if even just slightly.

How exactly will builds be more varied? Are you really gonna put in a Mod like ammo drum or will you more likely put in another damage or elemental mod

[motorfirebox]

The use of utility mods is not a good marker for diversity. Putting in an aura slot for utility mods doesn't make builds diverse, it just separates utility from the cookie-cutter build that everyone has to use because it's well over twice as good as any other option.

 

Elemental damage is in a pretty good place, in terms of diversity. Using the 'correct' elemental type for the faction you're running against offers a significant advantage, but not so significant that it simply isn't worth playing if you don't choose the optimal combination. If you choose the least optimal combination, your damage can actually take a really noticeable hit—enough that, even if you're not going to go with the optimal combination, it's worth paying enough attention to avoid making the worst choice. You can make good choices, you can make okay choices, and you can make bad choices; you're rewarded for the good choices, you can succeed making the okay choices, and you're penalized for the bad choices. That allows for some fairly significant build diversity, if only in terms of elemental mods. Sure, 'munchkins' will take the cookie-cutter build, but someone who makes a different choice of elemental mods can still contribute significant damage.

 

With Serration and the like, there's only good or bad, and the gap between them is massive. You either take Serration and have enough damage to contribute, or you put another mod in—literally any other mod that can fit in the slot—and your damage drops into insignificance.

 

The goal isn't to make it so that all builds are equally effective. There should be rewards for making good choices and penalties for making bad choices. But the gap between the good choices and the bad choices shouldn't be so wide as to essentially render choice meaningless. If the 'munchkins' all choose the same build, that's fine. If everyone choose the same build, because any other build is worthless, that's a problem. And that's where Serration is at right now. Putting in an aura slot for utility doesn't address that.

Edited January 23, 2015 by motorfirebox

[00zau]

The use of utility mods is not a good marker for diversity. Putting in an aura slot for utility mods doesn't make builds diverse, it just separates utility from the cookie-cutter build that everyone has to use because it's well over twice as good as any other option.

 

Elemental damage is in a pretty good place, in terms of diversity. Using the 'correct' elemental type for the faction you're running against offers a significant advantage, but not so significant that it simply isn't worth playing if you don't choose the optimal combination. If you choose the least optimal combination, your damage can actually take a really noticeable hit—enough that, even if you're not going to go with the optimal combination, it's worth paying enough attention to avoid making the worst choice. You can make good choices, you can make okay choices, and you can make bad choices; you're rewarded for the good choices, you can succeed making the okay choices, and you're penalized for the bad choices. That allows for some fairly significant build diversity, if only in terms of elemental mods. Sure, 'munchkins' will take the cookie-cutter build, but someone who makes a different choice of elemental mods can still contribute significant damage.

 

With Serration and the like, there's only good or bad, and the gap between them is massive. You either take Serration and have enough damage to contribute, or you put another mod in—literally any other mod that can fit in the slot—and your damage drops into insignificance.

 

The goal isn't to make it so that all builds are equally effective. There should be rewards for making good choices and penalties for making bad choices. But the gap between the good choices and the bad choices shouldn't be so wide as to essentially render choice meaningless. If the 'munchkins' all choose the same build, that's fine. If everyone choose the same build, because any other build is worthless, that's a problem. And that's where Serration is at right now. Putting in an aura slot for utility doesn't address that.

I haven't crunched the numbers, but I suspect that picking the right elemental mods makes just as much difference as using or not using serration. A maxed serration will make you do a little less than 3x the damage. Going from Radiation/Viral damge to Magnetic/Gas damage against alloy armored grineer goes from a 75% bonus to a 50% penalty, which means that Radiation and Viral do 175/50 around 3.5x as much damage as Magnetic and Gas do. On a physical damage weapon that'll be mitigated a bit because the physical damage isn't effected, so it'll be something like 275% vs 150% instead, but on a pure elemental weapon, yes, using the wrong damage mothe same weapon with Magnetic/Gas would do with serration.

[motorfirebox]

Serration grants +165% damage; the worst elemental combo you can get is radiation+toxin against certain Infested and Corrupted Infested (ancients, mutalist MOAs, and the like), which nets you -125% . Using the worst elemental mods doesn't come close to not using Serration. And even if it did, it would only be against certain specific types of enemies, not entire factions. And then, only on the tiny fraction of weapons which do pure elemental damage (and which can be modded to do radiation+toxin).

[00zau]

Serration grants +165% damage; the worst elemental combo you can get is radiation+toxin against certain Infested and Corrupted Infested (ancients, mutalist MOAs, and the like), which nets you -125% . Using the worst elemental mods doesn't come close to not using Serration. And even if it did, it would only be against certain specific types of enemies, not entire factions. And then, only on the tiny fraction of weapons which do pure elemental damage (and which can be modded to do radiation+toxin).

+165% damage means you are multiplying damage by x2.65.

Two 90% elemental mods add a total of 180% damage to the weapon, or a x2.8 multiplier.

Lets assume you're putting two elemental damage mods on a weapon, both 90% mods. Let's assume that it's a physical damage weapon. We're fighting grineer with alloy armor. (for sake of argument. we'll assume the physical base damage does 100% damage to the grineer)

Option one; you use serration and magnetic damage. This means you deal base damage x2.65 damage from Serration. The elemental mods at 180% damage, but they are only 50% effective due to the bad damage type. which makes it a 90% increase, or a x1.9 multiplier. Total damage is basex2.65x1.9, or 5.035 times the base damage.

Option two; you use radiation and no serration. There is no multiplier from serration, since you aren't using it. The two elemental mods give you 180% more damage, but they are 75% more effective because of the damage type, meaning they actually increase damage by 315%, or a x4.15 multiplier.

Thus, without serration, two 'correct' elemental mods do more than 80% of the damage of serration with the 'wrong' elemental mods. If instead you replaced serration with a 60% mod of the 'correct' type (so that the two weapon have the same number of mods on them), then the elemental mods add 420% damage, or a x5.2 damage multiplier, which is better than serration + two 'wrong' elements.

 

In short, yes. Stormbringer + Hellfire + Thermite Rounds/Wildfire/High Voltage Gives more damage than Stormbringer + Cryo Rounds + Serration against Alloy armor.

 

And that's only two damage mods. On a non-crit weapon you could easily have 4-6 elemental damage mods, which makes using the 'right' ones even more imporant. Against corpus the difference isn't as big since they don't have as many major resistances, but in general...

 

So yeah, picking the right damage types matters just as much or more than serration, at least against grineer.

Edited January 23, 2015 by 00zau

[taiiat]

you do realize this is just more words to say a staple mod, i.e. they have to use x mod to get max dps. isnt that the same as they must use serration to get max dps, sure it got a condition now but it would still generate staples, and like i pointed out, due to a weapon type or firing mechanic etc, these would not cater to all play type and may indeed force players to use a specific condition that they dont want to use but must use. creating a staple and a forced playstyle, two things people claim is the problem atm.

okay, let's play ball.

 

 

Situational Mods:

 

- basic Damage increase. let's call it +50% Damage at all times.

- unalerted Damage increase. let's call it +125% Damage when Enemies hit are unalerted.

- backstab Damage increase. let's call it +40% Damage if you hit an Enemy from behind.

- repetition Damage increase. let's call it +10% Damage on every consecutive shot on an Enemy that doesn't miss. has a window of 2.5 seconds before it resets.

extra conditions. if you shoot another Enemy, the window on the first Enemy is reset. if you miss, it's reset. 

- skillshot Damage increase. when using Punch-Through, all Enemies other than the original target that are hit take +75% Damage. also provides 0.5m Punch-Through.

- Weakpoint Damage increase. +100% Damage on Weakpoints. -40% Damage anywhere else.

- hipfire Damage increase. +35% Damage when not using FineAim. -25% Accuracy.

- trueshot Damage increase. +40% Damage when using FineAim. +15% Accuracy. -25% Damage when not using FineAim. -15% Rate of Fire.

- power shot Damage increase. +50% Damage on a Crit. -75% Damage when you don't Crit. -25% Rate of Fire.

 

- limp wrist. +40% Rate of Fire, +50% Magazine Capacity. -30% Damage, -35% Accuracy.

 

- Airburst. +1.0m Punch-Through. if you hit an Enemy, when your Projectile Pierces it, an Airburst is created behind the Enemy, dealing 50% of the Weapon's Damage in a 3m AoE.

- Line Shot. +3.0m Punch-Through. +15% Damage to all Enemies hit per Enemy hit per shot. (so if you hit one Enemy with a Projectile, +15%. hit 5 Enemies, +75%. hit 10 Enemies, +150%)

- Piercing Cloud. +2.5m Punch-Through. -40% Damage. -20% Accuracy. +100% Multishot. +30% Rate of Fire. +50% Magazine Capacity.

- Hailstorm. +400% Multishot. +40% Rate of Fire. +100% Magazine Capacity. -75% Damage. -50% Accuracy. each projectile hit has a 10% Chance to Stagger.

- Incendiary Inferno. +30% Chance on impact to Ignite. +200% Multishot. -50% Damage. -35% Accuracy. 

 

 

just some quick ideas. some of them don't sound super impressive because there's other Mods that we presume you'll probably combine with them.

if someone wants to say 'but balancing all of that and more is impossible!', well, i then direct you to Ring Runner. this game, made by four people, has a nearly bottomless pit of customization. and it's all balanced.

Edited January 23, 2015 by taiiat

[motorfirebox]

So yeah, picking the right damage types matters just as much or more than serration, at least against grineer.

 

 

You're failing to account for the costs involved, and those costs mean that picking the right damage type is not nearly as important as packing Serration. Stormbringer + Hellfire + Thermite Rounds requires three mod slots and 29 capacity—nearly half of your total, in each case. Serration requires one mod slot and 14 capacity: an eighth and a fifth of your total, respectively. Breaking it down into cost-per-+1x multiplier, each approach yields about +1x per 5 mod capacity unpolarized. The elemental combo costs 1.7 mod slots per +1x; Serration, obviously, costs 1 per +1x. That gives Serration a pretty significant advantage right out of the gate.

 

With formae, the difference becomes even more pronounced. A single forma brings Serration's capacity-per-+1x to 2.6; the same forma (spent for a different polarity) will only bring the elemental combo down to 4.6.

 

Elemental mods, per-cost, are significantly less effective than Serration.

Edited January 23, 2015 by motorfirebox

[NocturneOfSolace]

Why is this a thread a thing, DE in no way said they are removing serration

[Llyssa]

Keep in mind that the driving force behind this kerfluffle is one person very angry that they need 2 copies of maxed serration if they intend to use a rifle on their sentinel.

 

The rest is just attempts to justify it besides the rather weak base "I don't wanna max TWO serrations in order to use TWO serrations at once!"

[Llyssa]

Why is this a thread a thing, DE in no way said they are removing serration

There have been a number of threads(mostly started by the same person I mentioned) demanding it, and a few others joining the chorus. This got it posted as a "community hot topic", with polls included.

[00zau]

 

 

 

You're failing to account for the costs involved, and those costs mean that picking the right damage type is not nearly as important as packing Serration. Stormbringer + Hellfire + Thermite Rounds requires three mod slots and 29 capacity—nearly half of your total, in each case. Serration requires one mod slot and 14 capacity: an eighth and a fifth of your total, respectively. Breaking it down into cost-per-+1x multiplier, each approach yields about +1x per 5 mod capacity unpolarized. The elemental combo costs 1.7 mod slots per +1x; Serration, obviously, costs 1 per +1x. That gives Serration a pretty significant advantage right out of the gate.

 

With formae, the difference becomes even more pronounced. A single forma brings Serration's capacity-per-+1x to 2.6; the same forma (spent for a different polarity) will only bring the elemental combo down to 4.6.

 

Elemental mods, per-cost, are significantly less effective than Serration.

 

But my calculations were made assuming that you were using serration and two other mods. Serration + two elemental mods vs. three elemental mods (specifically to make the costs more or less equal).

 

I never contested that serration was the best damage mod, I was contesting the claim that picking the 'right' damage mods is less important than using serration.

[(PSN)XxDaKiDD420]

People think that the removal of serration (aka making it innate) will solve all of their problems with warframe, but the reality is gamers will always look for the "best build" or the "most damage build" in games like these. There isn't anyway around that fact.

Serration isn't or damage mods in general aren't the problem, the lack of diversity in the damage mods is.

While I like the idea of situational mods, I don't think they should come at the cost of the serration's removal.

Serration should be changed into more of a entry level mod with a lower max dmg increase percentage, and new dmg mods with dual stats should be implemented. So for example lets say this new version of serration has a max dmg of 100% but the new "situational" dual stat version of serration has a 60% max dmg increase but a headshot dmg increase of 250%. This kind of mod would continue to foster leveling progression and give veteran players a different style of play.

[motorfirebox]

But my calculations were made assuming that you were using serration and two other mods. Serration + two elemental mods vs. three elemental mods (specifically to make the costs more or less equal).

 

I never contested that serration was the best damage mod, I was contesting the claim that picking the 'right' damage mods is less important than using serration.

Picking the right elemental combo is less important. Two 90% mods of the correct type provide a 4.15 multiplier; two 90% mods of the wrong type provide a 1.9 multiplier. That means that the right combo only adds 2.25x over the wrong one (even less if you pick an in-between combo such as gas), which is less than Serration's 2.65x. And that's before the vastly lower cost of Serration compared to an elemental combo. If you pick the wrong elemental combo, you will lose less damage than if you don't pick Serration.

 

Which is why I pointed to the elemental mod set as an example of good diversity. There's room to play with it. If you wanted to focus on AOE damage, you could mod for Blast+Electric, or Gas, and still do okay against any faction. We can argue over whether or not that's really the best choice—I don't think it is—but the point is that you're not penalized so harshly for it that only the 'best' elemental type is even a consideration.

[Thyriell]

Serration and pure dmg mods aren't the issue.

The dmg system is.

The way I look at it ?

Letting weapons get stats via leveling is nice.

Getting the same potential damage without serration is FANTASTIC.

And lo and behold, we got a free mod slot !

Finally someone will put in a Primed Fast Hands !

 

But you know what will happen ?

People will put another damage modifier into their gun.

 

Weapons that previously did not have slots for a Bane / Shred like Soma for example (Serration, SC, HC, PS, VS, 3 elemental mods) will have an open slot to fit in.

 

Guess what happens ?

Moar DPS.

 

Will things change ?

Nope.

 

This post summarizes it excellently. BUT, if they were to remove serration as a result of Damage 3.0, which may or may not fix the impending powercreep...

 

I am more curious about what the devs have in mind. The system we have now works, but it isn't perfect. That however, doesn't mean it needs to be left alone.

[sanj66]

I said that one "might conceivably" end up packing one weapon for trash and another for the boss. It's an option.

 

As for how to reduce damage to a single mod slot, it's like this: your Serration or Serration-like mod goes into an aura/stance slot (melee stances are altered to add Pressure Point's damage increase). Elemental and slash/impact/puncture mods are altered so that any damage they add to one damage type is subtracted from another damage type. Elemental mods would probably reduce regular damage by the same amount (spread equally across slash, impact, and puncture). A mod that adds puncture damage might subtract slash damage, and so on. You build elemental combos like normal.

then you contradict yourself, by saying limit it to 1 damage mod per weapon, but now saying saying elemental mods will still work, elemental mods are damage mods, and you still will be doing what you claim the current system is atm, stacking elemental mods for elemental damage, its still the same thing and nothing is changing. so what is the whole point of your suggestion if we are ending back up doing the same thing as before? like i told you all earlier you all are talking about staples but not lookin at the whole mods listing, and are not looking at the system you all propose which is just breeding more staples, if not just rehashing the current system to do the same thing under a different mechanism.

[motorfirebox]

then you contradict yourself, by saying limit it to 1 damage mod per weapon, but now saying saying elemental mods will still work, elemental mods are damage mods, and you still will be doing what you claim the current system is atm, stacking elemental mods for elemental damage, its still the same thing and nothing is changing. so what is the whole point of your suggestion if we are ending back up doing the same thing as before? like i told you all earlier you all are talking about staples but not lookin at the whole mods listing, and are not looking at the system you all propose which is just breeding more staples, if not just rehashing the current system to do the same thing under a different mechanism.

I answered that concern in the post you quoted. "Elemental and slash/impact/puncture mods are altered so that any damage they add to one damage type is subtracted from another damage type." In other words, if an elemental mod adds 60% damage, that same amount is subtracted from other damage types. Total damage increase comes from a single source, and everything else is zero-sum.

[sanj66]

okay, let's play ball.

 

 

Situational Mods:

 

- basic Damage increase. let's call it +50% Damage at all times.

- unalerted Damage increase. let's call it +125% Damage when Enemies hit are unalerted.

- backstab Damage increase. let's call it +40% Damage if you hit an Enemy from behind.

- repetition Damage increase. let's call it +10% Damage on every consecutive shot on an Enemy that doesn't miss. has a window of 2.5 seconds before it resets.

extra conditions. if you shoot another Enemy, the window on the first Enemy is reset. if you miss, it's reset. 

- skillshot Damage increase. when using Punch-Through, all Enemies other than the original target that are hit take +75% Damage. also provides 0.5m Punch-Through.

- Weakpoint Damage increase. +100% Damage on Weakpoints. -40% Damage anywhere else.

- hipfire Damage increase. +35% Damage when not using FineAim. -25% Accuracy.

- trueshot Damage increase. +40% Damage when using FineAim. +15% Accuracy. -25% Damage when not using FineAim. -15% Rate of Fire.

- power shot Damage increase. +50% Damage on a Crit. -75% Damage when you don't Crit. -25% Rate of Fire.

 

- limp wrist. +40% Rate of Fire, +50% Magazine Capacity. -30% Damage, -35% Accuracy.

 

- Airburst. +1.0m Punch-Through. if you hit an Enemy, when your Projectile Pierces it, an Airburst is created behind the Enemy, dealing 50% of the Weapon's Damage in a 3m AoE.

- Line Shot. +3.0m Punch-Through. +15% Damage to all Enemies hit per Enemy hit per shot. (so if you hit one Enemy with a Projectile, +15%. hit 5 Enemies, +75%. hit 10 Enemies, +150%)

- Piercing Cloud. +2.5m Punch-Through. -40% Damage. -20% Accuracy. +100% Multishot. +30% Rate of Fire. +50% Magazine Capacity.

- Hailstorm. +400% Multishot. +40% Rate of Fire. +100% Magazine Capacity. -75% Damage. -50% Accuracy. each projectile hit has a 10% Chance to Stagger.

- Incendiary Inferno. +30% Chance on impact to Ignite. +200% Multishot. -50% Damage. -35% Accuracy. 

 

 

just some quick ideas. some of them don't sound super impressive because there's other Mods that we presume you'll probably combine with them.

if someone wants to say 'but balancing all of that and more is impossible!', well, i then direct you to Ring Runner. this game, made by four people, has a nearly bottomless pit of customization. and it's all balanced.

there are already clear cut staples for weapons here, bows will just use the crit mod as they will always crit, snipers will use the aim mod as you are looking down your sights, boltor p or even soma users will use hip fire, the only other option is the soma using the crit mod. the two italics are potentially unbalancing conditions as a loki can abuse both with its melee crit booster during invisibility. like i said there will always be staples with the mod system, and you all are still not looking at the fact that there are more staples that flat damage mods, yet you all want staples removed, point in case crit weapons and crit builds, what about those guys?

[sanj66]

 

I answered that concern in the post you quoted. "Elemental and slash/impact/puncture mods are altered so that any damage they add to one damage type is subtracted from another damage type." In other words, if an elemental mod adds 60% damage, that same amount is subtracted from other damage types. Total damage increase comes from a single source, and everything else is zero-sum.

 

you are not getting it, that is still stacking more than 1 damage mod, an elemental mods is a damage mod, you claimed you wanted to reduce damage mods to 1 per load out and the rest for utility, so how can you now say yes you can still stack elementals, i am not contesting how you want them to stack now, but you clearly now contradict yourself, and it is doing the exact same thing as before, you are still building elemental combos via elemental mods which will still be staple damage mods with the damage 2.0 system.

[taiiat]

-snip-

everything i wrote up there in 5 minutes was balanced. easier to accomplish states were less rewarding, more difficult to accomplish states were more rewarding.

 

btw, when you shoot and Et Cetera while Invisible, Enemies can become aware of you. they don't know the exact spot you're standing at, but they still know you're there.

Loki being able to utilize something like backstabbing is just fine. a decent Damage Bonus on your Melee Weapon. it's not killing Enemies quickly, but it is also moderately easy to create the situation, therefore a moderate Damage Bonus for that situation.

 

 

and combining these Mods is the entire point of them. you SHOULD be combining these. take any and all of the ones you consider to work for your Playstyles.

you don't Equip just one. you Equip as many as you want.

do the same for all Mods. have this that and the other thing, and know that just about nobody has the same Playstyle as you.

since the Mods are situational, you're opting in to your stats.

this is critical to true open ended customization. Players having a wide enough myriad of options that they can pick and choose any combination they want, and therefore feel rewarded for their Niche Playstyle.

 

 

we'll never get anywhere if Players don't have the opportunity to create Playstyles. we want Players to be able to use any combination of Mods they want. having enough of each Archetype of Mod so they can choose from a wide range that supports all kinds of Playstyles.

 

 

Edit:

and again, the technical excellence of Ring Runner should be an example to the industry of how to encourage players to play the game their way, allowing them to have any playstyle they want, while still being balanced.

Edited January 24, 2015 by taiiat

[(PSN)XxDaKiDD420]

Sorry but respectfully I don't agree with this, mostly because the frame your using is suppose to dictate your playstyle.

That's why each warframe has a different skill set. If you want to play sneaky and more stealth Loki is great for that role.

If you want to play with a more straight forward approach obtain rhino.

Edited January 24, 2015 by (PS4)XxDaKiDD420

[00zau]

Picking the right elemental combo is less important. Two 90% mods of the correct type provide a 4.15 multiplier; two 90% mods of the wrong type provide a 1.9 multiplier. That means that the right combo only adds 2.25x over the wrong one (even less if you pick an in-between combo such as gas), which is less than Serration's 2.65x. And that's before the vastly lower cost of Serration compared to an elemental combo. If you pick the wrong elemental combo, you will lose less damage than if you don't pick Serration.

 

Which is why I pointed to the elemental mod set as an example of good diversity. There's room to play with it. If you wanted to focus on AOE damage, you could mod for Blast+Electric, or Gas, and still do okay against any faction. We can argue over whether or not that's really the best choice—I don't think it is—but the point is that you're not penalized so harshly for it that only the 'best' elemental type is even a consideration.

Are you saying that 2.25x isn't close to 2.65? It's pretty damn close. The 'wrong' elements provides almost as much of a penalty as not having serration, and costs just as many mods. And that ignores the earlier point you made about opportunity cost; not bringing serration gives you an extra mod slot. 3 elementals of the 'right' type are better than serration and 2 elementals of the 'wrong' type.

 

And yes, there is a little more room to play with elementals, but that's only if you aren't making a damage focused build. My torid runs a lot of blast for floor dancing... but I'm giving up damage to do it. However, I don't have to give up too much since blast is a generally good damage type, and the rest is the highly effective corrosive damage. And that's how the modding system works best; small sacrifices for a large gain somewhere else. Dual element mods as well; some guns I run them instead of formaing for more 11pt mods because I like the proc chance. The reason you can get away with not picking the 'best' element is that there is a middle ground option; you aren't chosing between rad and mag damage; you can chose something moderatly effective with a utility effect. But that still isn't freedom of choice. Many weapons have no use for the utility effects of the 'okay' damage types, and you are taking a massive penalty, almost (if you want to think of it your way) as bad as serration, for picking the wrong one.