Here's How We Remove Serration And (Attempt To) Balance The Game. Damage 2.5 (Designated Megathread)

[xRufus7x]

I feel like the serration rebalance is a bad idea. Serration is a huge part of warframe. Also nerfing all other mods that help with dmg sounds horrible. You missed a key ingrediant in all of this. The enemys will have to change if we lost all that extra dmg we wouldnt even be able to do T2 survival missions.

I feel like serration and other mods like it are the very core of our mod system. Removing these would need a total rework of the mod system. I feel like they would instead rush it, and the game would be broken in many too many ways.

Well it wouldn't be the first time a mechanic was overhauled, hell it wouldn't even be the first time the mod system was overhauled.

[Chaosyn]

Do you really believe that DE would remove Serration w/o any other alternative? 

Nope not at all. I believe if serration is removed DE will find something similar to add. OR. The community will do what they always do....Replace it with some random mod and deem IT mandatory....and then in a few months ask to have that removed too....

 

I can see DE removing damage mods,reducing scaling (but not removing it),and going from there....the PROBLEM is that enemies will still scale to the bullet sponge/instagib heights they do now. It WILL take longer,sure,but we will still hit that point where everything we do is pointless...Hell evn with them as bonus damage it would happen....I'm JUST offering scenarios here...They can take my damage mods,I won't care....IF they do something that makes sense and makes high level content more than "Status Procs and luck to kill folks"

 

I can also see removing scaling and setting hard limits to what you fight...The problem with that is that you hit a ceiling as to how powerful you and your enemies can become.....meaning once you hit that ceiling,you're done....You'll never get better...ever. And you'll never face another challenge either.

[swihart91]

Did this amount if obvious really require a thread?

Seriously.

Meanwhile...on Twitter:

Sup homies, guess what. The sky iz blu.

#mindblown

No people are trying to hide ot behind damage being broken and I dont think it is lile it was said else where another mod will take its place as being mandatory so what do they do then do they intergrate it also into the weapons? Damage doesnt need reworked, the only time damage does fall off is at the 60 minite mark of a survival or wave 50+ in defense then that requires a team build to last longer which is what this game is all about. Do ypu just want to be able to solo for as long as ypu want? No i want a challange, i want to be restricted on my builds so lvl 70 heavy gunners just dont bow before me but no lets make this game as easy as possible to please every one

[(PSN)jwernecke]

Here's my idea.... Shut your hole.... Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, Point Blank... what's next the dual stat mods? Fast hands? Ammo Drum is to OP...

I hope when I reach rank 19 no lifer status I don't suddenly think that the game is flawed to the core and that no one else should have the fun I had.

[Arkrados]

This game isn't so easy that something like this needs to happen. If you want more challenge, take the offending mods off your weapon, sell them on market, or something like that. Don't ruin the game for the sake of a vocal minority.

[HonorGuard2074]

1-4 and 6-7 ,5 I am 50 50 on elemental part and muti shot

8 is different,I suggest guns like soma prime and bolter are at like mr 8,and lower efficiency guns are lower

Also MR should matter,maybe add 5% dmg increase to every gun til MR 10 to encourage trying new guns to get a full 215% dmg increase on lvl 30 weapons which is 5% down from hoernet strike

On the case of 5 leave the muti shot and elements because it very nice as is

On 1-4 and 6-7 I argee

Edited January 18, 2015 by robby2074

[JakeRobber]

That seems to be the case, OP, whenever someone says weapons should have a 165% passive damage increase.  Doing this would solve one problem, while creating various others.

 

If Serration and the like are removed, a lot of other changes will need to be made.  It's more complicated than many seem to realize.

[(XBOX)MAXsandwich]

You just cant outright remove serration... why? Beacuse serration is the only dmg progression there is for primaries... if serration is inherintly built into the weapon you just go from 0-60 in less than a second.

Warframes and weapons take pretty much zero effort to lvl to max rank... if you remove the 10 rank cards your just making the player max power in what? 1-2 hrs?

Why not just remove wep and frame lvl's all together, just let players pick all the abilities they want right off the bat and call it a day?



How about they just come out with several serrition/utility variants... same dmg as serration+utility stat.. punch thru, reload, status whatever

You go up to an NPC and trade you serration to em and get the serration variant of you choice the same rank as the one you gave him..


 

[Synvul]

I agree that people want it removed for the slot. I would rather just see pure overall damage mods just get some sort of disadvantage where using it means looking most consistent straight damage.

[immolator1001]

OP says that like its a bad thing...

[Sloan441]

Won't make a bit of difference.

 

Sure, you'd get the slot back and about 99% of the playerbase would just put a 90% elemental mod in there and you're back exactly where you started.

 

The whole idea is half-baked.

[egregiousRac]

Here's my idea.... Shut your hole.... Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, Point Blank... what's next the dual stat mods? Fast hands? Ammo Drum is to OP...

I hope when I reach rank 19 no lifer status I don't suddenly think that the game is flawed to the core and that no one else should have the fun I had.

 

The system IS flawed. Serration is not only good at everything, it is better on its own than anything else. Even the 'bad' damage mods (pressure point and point blank) are equal in power to a single elemental mod on its own, and they boost those elemental mods.

 

The point of a mod system is customization. Having a mod that is the best choice for a slot on literally every weapon makes no sense.

[egregiousRac]

Won't make a bit of difference.

 

Sure, you'd get the slot back and about 99% of the playerbase would just put a 90% elemental mod in there and you're back exactly where you started.

 

The whole idea is half-baked.

 

Most of the people asking for the changes want more than just base damage mods removed. We want the whole system overhauled.

[CY13ERPUNK]

Just watching the forums people have been begging for mod slots and now that de has mentioned removing seration everyone has jumped down their throats for it. Weapon progression will still make the weapon as powerful as it was fpr everyone arguing the game is to easy with. I honestly just see this as everyone wanting that additional slot to make their builds that much stronger which actually defeats the purpose of this whole argument anyways. Maybe there is is something I'm missing? If so please explain and also leave your thoughts below.

 

the ppl who just want the slot gone for 'MOAR POWA' have just jumped on the bandwagon without understanding the core issue/problem

 

the problem is that the core base dmg mods hurt build variety, they are 'required' thus they should be removed/replaced/reworked

 

prior to the mod card system this was not an issue, and post-change the frames were given innate stat upgrades as they rank 1-30 (ie hp/shields/energy), this was never done for the weapons and there have been problems ever since (originally there were not a lot of weapon mods so it was a non-issue, but now it is more obvious)

 

ideally all weapons should gain around 5% dmg per rank 1-30 giving them a total of +150% base dmg at rank 30, this would be a slight nerf to some weapons if it was applied across the board, or alternatively primary/2ndary/melee could all gain different amounts per rank, whatevs works

 

personally i would prefer that the weapons gain innate base dmg upgrades, but that those should be less than what they would have gained with the serration/hornet/etc to make up for the extra slot now available (this would require the least amount of effort on the 'balancing' front)

 

another possible alternative is to remove the existing base dmg mods, and replace them with 2-4 alternative versions that all have tradeoffs, ala HvyCal, so that there would be CHOICES

 

the same argument can be made for all the multishot mods (ie they need tradeoffs/pros/cons)

 

the bottom line, the core base dmg mods and multishot are TOO GOOD and are 'required', this is why they need to be removed/replaced/reworked/etc, the intelligent ppl making these arguments are NOT doing it just for more powercreep, they dont want more powercreep, they want viable choices, not false choices, and they want real build diversity (taking protips from other great games like PoE)

 

i am under the impression that the decision makers at DE understand the issue fairly well, even if a large chunk of the community does not

Edited January 18, 2015 by CY13ERPUNK

[swihart91]

The system IS flawed. Serration is not only good at everything, it is better on its own than anything else. Even the 'bad' damage mods (pressure point and point blank) are equal in power to a single elemental mod on its own, and they boost those elemental mods.

 

The point of a mod system is customization. Having a mod that is the best choice for a slot on literally every weapon makes no sense.

Ok so when a nother mod becomes mandatory do we just make it apart of the weapon as well as everyone is suggesting? Where would this loop hole end? This is the whole point of molding. Go play other mmos or a moba they to have mandatory equipment for almost every class or champion people just want more damage

[Xeo_Nespydonum]

Here's my idea.... Shut your hole.... Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, Point Blank... what's next the dual stat mods? Fast hands? Ammo Drum is to OP...

I hope when I reach rank 19 no lifer status I don't suddenly think that the game is flawed to the core and that no one else should have the fun I had.

When I think about how much fun I've had in Warframe, the first thing that comes to mind isn't exactly leveling Serration.  What I've had fun doing is learning about the systems, doing cool ninja stuff, hanging out with friends, and building ridiculously cool equipment.  Anything we, as a community, can do make the experience even more fun for new players should be done. 

[ROXXXY]

Um, no, you couldn't be more wrong. Forma is easy to make, and you can max out a weapon in about a half hour. I haven't spent any money on warframe except the hunter pack way back when. 

 

I had to change my trinity when she got revamped. Do you see me complaining and slinging mud at a total stranger? Stop being so accusatory and defensive, it's unpleasant and unbefitting of a civil person. When this stuff happens I just carry on, play the game, and get back to where I once was. Right now you're being rude to me for nothing. You're not special, I'm not special. Nobody promised you or me anything.

 

Would you like me to show you what to do? You could benefit from this knowledge and I'm more than happy to help anybody who wants it.

Half an Hour O_o. It takes me longer then a day.

[swihart91]

Why dont they just make seration variants lile one that gains 1% fast hands per lvl then one that has 1% ammo drum per lvl etc that would add variation to builds and no dont drop tem like a normal serration

[iuki.]

I have never asked for serration to be removed; it is DE's idea, not mine lol.

 

Looking forward to having to re-forma and relevel that V slot for every single potatoed weapon I have! Forma CS sales will make much monies fo sho.

Edited January 18, 2015 by fizbit

[Aercascade]

I think forma'ing and people not having the ability to have their weapons viable even being at a low level is something that people don't like.

As much as I was pretty annoyed they'd removed skill slots.  (For as silly reasons as: I pvp with friends I can't do anything to disable skills or having lost slots where I'd intended a pure defense build.)

 

However, I've learn't to adapt and welcome the additional slot of an augment mod. (As much as I'd like it to have it's own space.) I honestly can't complain now that I can at least fit it in. I run Ash with the Smoke Screen Augment and never without. It's pretty darn handy.

 

 

 

Basically. I'll see what they propose as a replacement before I get out my Boltor; because what they change might not be as bad as I fear.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Lilliannette

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

No people are trying to hide ot behind damage being broken and I dont think it is lile it was said else where another mod will take its place as being mandatory so what do they do then do they intergrate it also into the weapons? Damage doesnt need reworked, the only time damage does fall off is at the 60 minite mark of a survival or wave 50+ in defense then that requires a team build to last longer which is what this game is all about. Do ypu just want to be able to solo for as long as ypu want? No i want a challange, i want to be restricted on my builds so lvl 70 heavy gunners just dont bow before me but no lets make this game as easy as possible to please every one

No, everyone knows the purpose if removing serration. You're literally gimping yourself if you don't use it. Freeing up said slot would, theoretically, lead to more horizontal progression/varied builds.

The unfortunate problem is that Warframe was built from the ground up with vertical progression in mind. The game is so grindy for a reason. Therefore, trying to half arse horizontal progression will only lead to the main counter argument: players finding the next "must have" mod.

So, DE would need to remove literally all vertical progression from the game. That means steel fibers, that means vitalities, and that means literally any mod that can't be iterated upon (you cannot have two different pure damage mods as they do the same but you can have multiple elemental mods as there are multiple elements) must be removed.

And that would break the game.

[Sixty5]

Removing serration is a monumentally silly idea.

The number one problem is replacing it.

Many people seem to think damage per level is the way to go, which is stupid, since it completely breaks scaling and makes ranking weapons that much more annoying.

Giving +165% damage at weapon level 30 would mean that as soon as you get your first gun to level 10 or so, early content ceases to be balanced, at level 30 that problem becomes much larger.

Others have suggested connecting it to mastery rank, which equates to forcing players to rank up any number of items in order to boost the damage of the one they want it on.

The focus system could offer a solution, but given that it has been "coming soon" for over a year now, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

The next problem is scaling.

Outright removal of damage mods would reduce overall weapon damage by a huge margin.

The 30k dps boltor prime you love so much will struggle to hit 5k.

High level gameplay would become nearly impossible.

Every enemy in the game would require rescaling.

And in the end the scaling curve would become much shallower, making it easier to rush into high level stuff.

Finally it isn't going to expand any build variety.

We got more frame mod slots with the ability removal in U15, and yet, I don't see anyone running Intruder or warm coat.

Instead people are just running more optimal tank or power spam builds.

Removing damage mods wouldn't mean people run big ammo builds, or use IPS mods, they'd run whatever gives them a bit more deeps.

Removing damage mods won't solve the problem and will only create more issues.

[emptiness]

i agree with the OP

[ChameleonDude]

Do I want it gone for the slot? Yes.

 

To make my build stronger? Yes.

 

To add more raw damage to it? No.

 

We need room for utility mods, but so long as we can just slot something damage/fire rate related in there, it's just not going to happen.

[ChameleonDude]

While I'm not 100% with you, this is the general idea of how I'd like to see things rebalanced. Mods slots being freed up, more variety, weapons that should clearly be good being good, etc. However, there's one thing I really have to pull out as a bad idea:

 

Multishot mods - Instead of these mods just adding extra shots for free, have them sort of "split your shots in two", doubling your proc chance, and increasing crit. Either this, or just nerf them to do something along the lines of +25% multishot. 

 

Low multi-shot chances are just annoying and bring RNG into things. We already have crits for that - we don't need any more. Just round out all multi-shot mods to 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% at ranks 0, 1, 2, 3 respectively. At max rank, the RNG of it will be negated so you don't have to deal with multi-shotting against that lancer and then not doing so against the bombard; once again - we have crits for that.