Here's How We Remove Serration And (Attempt To) Balance The Game. Damage 2.5 (Designated Megathread)

[ReaperSticks]

So with everyone talking about the removal of serration and why it should happen and why it shouldn't blah blah blah.

what about hornet strike. If serration does end up being removed will hornet strike as well?

[Trichouette]

They talked about removing "mod damage"

So hornet strike too

And point blank and pressure point etc etc.

I'm not sure about the elemental one.

[Stratego89]

The discussion (argument) in the community is in relation to the developers considering a plead to remove damage mods in general, so yes.

[T-REXFury]

what realy need 2 happen is 2 revamp the damage system take the pure base dmg mods out of the game and scale the dificulty of the enemyes not by hier levels but by making new types of enemyes that will be more dificult 2 survive from and increse sligltly the number of enemyes that apear in waves in survivals, interception and defence. it seems ilogical that we as tenno have a cap of evolving and the enemyes have an almost unlimited amount of it.

[Rakshal]

I was thinking all damage mods (aside from the ones that have negative effect).

[vaugahn]

another mod will take its place as being mandatory

 

Except not really. This is a fallacious argument. 

 

Also, I must not be people.

[-KHAOS-PROTOGENOI-]

If they remove damage mods cause players are building too OP builds with them. Then might aswell quit the game. Seeing if you do anything better than expected, it's going to be removed.

[xRufus7x]

This is from the Overview of the devstream. https://warframe.com/news/devstream-44-overview

 

Power creep is a delicate subject, but it's one we're discussing.

One of the problems with looking at damage in Warframe (both for Tenno and enemies) is that there is no single change that can be made to easily 'fix' inconsistencies. Mods like Serration are obvious flaws in a system designed to be as customizable as possible, and we're not happy with forcing any players to build their Warframe in a particular fashion.

Although Serration is a great example of a Mod with too much strength, there's still no benefit to simply removing it. To do so would disrupt the balance of Tenno damage to favor the opposition, and we recognize that some higher level areas of Warframe would be inaccessible without the advantage Serration brings.

Respecting the time and investment every player has put into their Warframes and Loadouts is important to us. Rest assured, when the time comes to make adjustments to damage output it will be more than just a small tweak. Enemy damage, health, armor, and even damage types may be questioned.

 

Take from it what you will.

[(PSN)Legend_Beast4]

If they remove Serration, then what do we get in return? I've used up a lot of fusion cores for that mod.

[(PSN)Santar0s]

so all the time and effort that goes into getting these up to rank 10 and the new primed mods and now they are discussing axing it? So what happens to all my cores that I dumped into these mods? Will they be arcane mods like the old helmets?

[Egg_Chen]

Serration, Point Blank, Primed Point Blank, Pressure Point, Blaze, Hornet Strike.

Multishot mods, those are just straight damage really, get rid of them.

... and really? Why not Heavy Cal, Magnum Force, Spoiled Strike?

Because when the others have gone people will just slap those on.

 

Hey, Charged Chamber and Primed Chamber are essential on the Vectis, let's remove those as well.

 

Yup, let's remove it all and start again (again).

[Jahadaya]

Removing serration is a monumentally silly idea.

The number one problem is replacing it.

Many people seem to think damage per level is the way to go, which is stupid, since it completely breaks scaling and makes ranking weapons that much more annoying.

Giving +165% damage at weapon level 30 would mean that as soon as you get your first gun to level 10 or so, early content ceases to be balanced, at level 30 that problem becomes much larger.

Others have suggested connecting it to mastery rank, which equates to forcing players to rank up any number of items in order to boost the damage of the one they want it on.

The focus system could offer a solution, but given that it has been "coming soon" for over a year now, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

The next problem is scaling.

Outright removal of damage mods would reduce overall weapon damage by a huge margin.

The 30k dps boltor prime you love so much will struggle to hit 5k.

High level gameplay would become nearly impossible.

Every enemy in the game would require rescaling.

And in the end the scaling curve would become much shallower, making it easier to rush into high level stuff.

Finally it isn't going to expand any build variety.

We got more frame mod slots with the ability removal in U15, and yet, I don't see anyone running Intruder or warm coat.

Instead people are just running more optimal tank or power spam builds.

Removing damage mods wouldn't mean people run big ammo builds, or use IPS mods, they'd run whatever gives them a bit more deeps.

Removing damage mods won't solve the problem and will only create more issues.

I literally addressed everything you said in the OP. Did you even read it? I said this would require a complete rework of enemy scaling. Go back and reread, please.

 

 

While I'm not 100% with you, this is the general idea of how I'd like to see things rebalanced. Mods slots being freed up, more variety, weapons that should clearly be good being good, etc. However, there's one thing I really have to pull out as a bad idea:

 

 

Low multi-shot chances are just annoying and bring RNG into things. We already have crits for that - we don't need any more. Just round out all multi-shot mods to 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% at ranks 0, 1, 2, 3 respectively. At max rank, the RNG of it will be negated so you don't have to deal with multi-shotting against that lancer and then not doing so against the bombard; once again - we have crits for that.

The only reason I said to nerf the multishot mods and elemtentals and stuff was to make them less "essential" so that when Serration is removed, there wouldn't be a false-choice where the next best mods to slap on instead of Serration are just more elementals. 

[Entari0]

If they remove Serration, then what do we get in return? I've used up a lot of fusion cores for that mod.

it would probably be compensated in a way similar to the way people were reimbursed when steel charge went from 5 to ten to five ranks: legendary cores. also perhaps some credits.

[vaugahn]

Serration, Point Blank, Primed Point Blank, Pressure Point, Blaze, Hornet Strike.

Multishot mods, those are just straight damage really, get rid of them.

... and really? Why not Heavy Cal, Magnum Force, Spoiled Strike?

Because when the others have gone people will just slap those on.

 

Hey, Charged Chamber and Primed Chamber are essential on the Vectis, let's remove those as well.

 

Yup, let's remove it all and start again (again).

 

Rest assured, when the time comes to make adjustments to damage output it will be more than just a small tweak. Enemy damage, health, armor, and even damage types may be questioned.

 

Serration isn't the only thing that needs a change. Saying "hey look these things need changes too, we should just change nothing" doesn't make any sense. 

[--F--NerevarCM]

they wont remove pure damage mods, they will put then in every weapon, a lvl 0 weapon will have 0% more damage, at the lvl 30, the weapon will have 160% more damage, like the same effect if u put a max serration in the weapon, players are complaining because pure damage mods are necessary in every weapon, so its better remove the mod and incorporate the effect on the weapon

[Jahadaya]

Serration, Point Blank, Primed Point Blank, Pressure Point, Blaze, Hornet Strike.

Multishot mods, those are just straight damage really, get rid of them.

... and really? Why not Heavy Cal, Magnum Force, Spoiled Strike?

Because when the others have gone people will just slap those on.

 

Hey, Charged Chamber and Primed Chamber are essential on the Vectis, let's remove those as well.

 

Yup, let's remove it all and start again (again).

This is a stupid point. Serration, Point Blank, PRimed Point Blank, and Pressure Point are different as they are just "+MOAR PURE DAMAGE 100% EFFECTIVE AGAINZT EVERYTHANG WITH NU DRAWBAKS." They are ridiculously dumb mods and just waste a mod slot.

[Egg_Chen]

@Jahadaya - Funniest thing I have read all day, you quote me, call it a stupid point, then agree with what I said?

Pure genius, well done.

 

Tell me please how a Multishot Mod or Primed Chamber is not, and I quote "+MOAR PURE DAMAGE... WITH NO DRAWBAKS".

 

Wow it hurt to type that, I feel dirty.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Egg_Chen

[Mazrim]

This is a stupid point. Serration, Point Blank, PRimed Point Blank, and Pressure Point are different as they are just "+MOAR PURE DAMAGE 100% EFFECTIVE AGAINZT EVERYTHANG WITH NU DRAWBAKS." They are ridiculously dumb mods and just waste a mod slot.

By this logic, elemental damage mods are dumb and just waste a mod slot.

[(XBOX)MAXsandwich]

they wont remove pure damage mods, they will put then in every weapon, a lvl 0 weapon will have 0% more damage, at the lvl 30, the weapon will have 160% more damage, like the same effect if u put a max serration in the weapon, players are complaining because pure damage mods are necessary in every weapon, so its better remove the mod and incorporate the effect on the weapon

So what happens to the aspect of the game that rewards players for all the time and effort involved in maxing out a serration card? Cause after all maxing out serration is an achievemant and a minor milestone.. geting a weapon to lvl 30 is not.

Bad Idea

 

[Jahadaya]

@Jahadaya - Funniest thing I have read all day, you quote me, call it a stupid point, then agree with what I said?

Pure genius, well done.

 

Tell me please how a Multishot Mod or Primed Chamber is not, and I quote "+MOAR PURE DAMAGE... WITH NO DRAWBAKS".

 

Wow it hurt to type that, I feel dirty.

Lol, sorry I read sarcasm in your post. :P 

 

Multishot mods do need a change, aswell. But they just need to be nerfed if we're going to tackle the essential mod and balancing problem, and not full out removed like +base damage mods.

 

By this logic, elemental damage mods are dumb and just waste a mod slot.

No, because elements are not +100% effective against every enemy everywhere. Like I said though, if we're going to tackle the "essential mod" and balancing issues as a whole, they need to be heavily nerfed in order to not be pretty much 100% used on most peoples builds. I made a thread about this, actually:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/387330-heres-how-we-remove-serration-and-attempt-to-balance-the-game-damage-25/

[xRufus7x]

they wont remove pure damage mods, they will put then in every weapon, a lvl 0 weapon will have 0% more damage, at the lvl 30, the weapon will have 160% more damage, like the same effect if u put a max serration in the weapon, players are complaining because pure damage mods are necessary in every weapon, so its better remove the mod and incorporate the effect on the weapon

to my knowledge the devs have never said that this is what they intend on doing. Honestly they haven't said much on the matter. The longest mention I have come across is what I posted above from the devstream overview. Even the mention in the devstream was pretty vague. They could just remove the mods and reduce the health of the enemies, or have the weapons gain damage as they level, or add negative effects to Serration, turning it into a corrupted mod, or do nothing at all, or turn all the frames into pink Rhinos. We really don't know what DE's plan is at this point, or if they even have one.Just that they are aware of the "issue".

 

Please refrain from stating conjecture as fact.

Edited January 19, 2015 by xRufus7x

[swihart91]

Except not really. This is a fallacious argument. 

 

Also, I must not be people.

So multi shot isnt going to take its place as being mandatory? really ypu believe that also as i have syated before almost all mobas or mmos have equipment that is pretty much mandoatory this isnt some new problem that popped up in this game it is a ncessary evil I don't get why this community is all up in arms about it lately

[ACorpse]

I had suspected they were rethinking the amount of effect any mod has, since the Archwing mods are all pathetic (5%, 7.5% etc) by comparison.

[Sloan441]

It's not a matter of mandatory, it's a matter of people are going to stack damage. It's a gun, it does damage, they'll stack damage.

 

So nothing really changes.

 

I simply don't see DE going for Damage 3.0--and that's what you're asking for. If you end up with tiered weapons and a fixed damage progression, you've just recreated Destiny's weapons. I don't think that's what we want in this game.

[Mazrim]

Lol, sorry I read sarcasm in your post. :P 

 

Multishot mods do need a change, aswell. But they just need to be nerfed if we're going to tackle the essential mod and balancing problem, and not full out removed like +base damage mods.

 

No, because elements are not +100% effective against every enemy everywhere. Like I said though, if we're going to tackle the "essential mod" and balancing issues as a whole, they need to be heavily nerfed in order to not be pretty much 100% used on most peoples builds. I made a thread about this, actually:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/387330-heres-how-we-remove-serration-and-attempt-to-balance-the-game-damage-25/

 

So here's a question. If we remove all elemental mods and damage mods, what do we fill our weapons with? Magazine Warp and Ammo drum? Can't have crit mods, thems are damage mods. Primed Fast Hands?

 

Howabout Channeling Mods. The only channel mod worth anything is Life Strike. Reach and Fury are staples of every build as is. Do we remove those too?

 

Where do we stop removing "Damage mods" in the name of "Variety?" Do we keep going onto Warframe mods? So let's remove things that make frames good, i.e. Vitality/Vigor/Redirection. Those are, after all, 'essential mods.' Oooh! I know. Howabout Flow, Streamline, Intensify. Those are essentials is 90% of all Frame builds. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Mazrim