Why The Void Trader Can Never Sell Prime Parts

[Ajreil]

  I have seen a lot of talk lately about people wanting the Void Trader (Baro Ki'Teel) to sell prime parts for Orokin Ducats. This seems fine on paper, saving many hours or grinding trying to get that last prime part you need. RNG is rarely kind to anyone. But there's a problem here. Being able to create any prime part at a moment's notice would damage the economy, and by extension Warframe's entire free to play model.

 

Prime parts encourage trading

  Prime parts are valuable. The fact that I have seen so many people wanting the Void Trader to sell a prime part is proof of that. That's a good thing, because it means that as a player, if I really want that last Soma Prime part, I might just be willing to trade something valuable for it. "My hard earned Nova Prime Chassis for your Soma Prime blueprint? It's a deal."

 

Trading gives Platinum a value

  One feature that sets Warframe in a league of it's own as far as it's free to play model is concerned is the fact that Platinum, something that is only created by paying real money, can be traded to other player for other items. Some games make you pay money to progress through the game, or they frustrate you by making you pay money to play the game at all. Not warframe. Warframe lets those who pay for platinum dominate the economy without making those who don't pay feel left out. A player who farms a rare mod or prime part gets platinum in return for the time they spent grinding for it, while someone who paid for the game can buy that same item from them with a few dollars. Everyone wins.

 

 

Platinum's value encourages people to pay

  Since I made my account about 6 months ago, I have spent about $50 on platinum. With that I have purchased full sets of Frost prime, Rhino prime, a Mag prime part, an arcane helmet, about 20 potatoes, 3 stasis slots, at least 30 slots for weapons/warframes, and a boltor prime part. Try getting that much with your money on a Facebook game.

 

The Void Trader would collapse this system

  If the Void Trader sold prime parts, it would lower Warframe's grind wall by at least half. People currently pay other players platinum to get over that grind wall. This would mean less people spending platinum to get prime parts, less people spending money to get it, less money in DE's pocket, and less money on development. The Void Trader would probaby single-handedly stop DE from releasing update 16 on time.

 

The void trader would be trading convenience for future content. Convenience kills games, especially free to play games. Now you know why. Now the fact that he isn't always available, that's something to complain about...

Edited January 20, 2015 by Ajreil

[Dawn11715]

nice summery

[direcyphre]

A fine point on how trading is the core of the economy as it stands.

 

"Take my +1" or one of those cliched phrases.

[Buzkyl]

I'm going to save this in a document whenever someone mentions the Void Trader increases grind by taking void parts not selling them.

[Ajreil]

Glad to see poeple are behind me on this, so thanks for the support.

 

Update: changed like instances of me saying void parts instead of prime parts, including one in the title. (that was embarassing)

[OverlordMcGeek]

I am glad that at least some of the community here uses their brains. I agree in this is why it should never be implemented in. This same logic should be used with everything that DE releases and some users decide to rant about.

[Archistopheles]

We used the same argument before trading was introduced. "It will belittle the void" we said, "It will cause people to stop playing, because grinding the void is the only thing to do in this game".

[Vorsches]

I'm not for or against buying prime parts from that sleazy fella, but this is a nice argument/analysis. Sooo...

+1

[Ajreil]

We used the same argument before trading was introduced. "It will belittle the void" we said, "It will cause people to stop playing, because grinding the void is the only thing to do in this game".

 

Actually I think that empowered the void, because people now run T4 keys with the intention of getting a prime part/item to sell. It also empowered Warframe's F2P model, which is what this post is concerned about. Trading got over the grind wall, but that was ok because it reinforced the F2P model. Pulling void items out of thin air will also get over the grind wall, but in a way that harms the F2P model.

[NocturneOfSolace]

This is kind of in the wrong section...

[420degreequicksopeswag]

We used the same argument before trading was introduced. "It will belittle the void" we said, "It will cause people to stop playing, because grinding the void is the only thing to do in this game".

Well, and a very balanced pvp.

[Archistopheles]

Actually I think that empowered the void, because people now run T4 keys with the intention of getting a prime part/item to sell. It also empowered Warframe's F2P model, which is what this post is concerned about. Trading got over the grind wall, but that was ok because it reinforced the F2P model. Pulling void items out of thin air will also get over the grind wall, but in a way that harms the F2P model.

So the answer of course would be to introduce prime parts to Baro Ki Teer's inventory in light doses and high prices so that even "Traders" can trade junk parts that sell for 0-5p into the more rare parts that actually sell.

It would "empower" the F2P model even further, like a virtual stock market.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Not true. The Trader doesn't have a grindwall to lower, only an RNG one. DE simply has to set the Ducat cost for Prime Parts above the point they envision people should be able to get it on their own (it should take at least 40 runs to get this, but he's going to need 120 runs' worth of Ducats to get it). It only makes things easier for people who just have bad luck.

[AureusVulpes]

Not true. The Trader doesn't have a grindwall to lower, only an RNG one. DE simply has to set the Ducat cost for Prime Parts above the point they envision people should be able to get it on their own (it should take at least 40 runs to get this, but he's going to need 120 runs' worth of Ducats to get it). It only makes things easier for people who just have bad luck.

 

Or, people could buy popular Primed Mods when they're in rotation and trade them later when they're not available. Primed mod for your Nova Prime Chassis? sounds like it might be a worthwhiile deal.....

[Cpl_Facehugger]

We used the same argument before trading was introduced. "It will belittle the void" we said, "It will cause people to stop playing, because grinding the void is the only thing to do in this game".

 

Exactly. This is why I'm fairly dismissive of the notion that allowing void trader to sell prime parts will bring about the apocalypse. I've seen the same arguments made before and watched as they don't actually pan out that way in reality.

[Vadrigos]

If this is the case, trading needs an overhaul, or we will forever be at the mercy of overinflated prices thrown out by those who have the will and time to grind through a hundred tower missions for a single part...not to mention a cluttered chatbox that does very poorly the job of an auction house...

[Lord.Finster]

You forgot to mention how the massive grindwall frustrates players to such a degree that they quit the game entirely.

Or that the platinum and prime access prices are just ridiculously high.

Or why it happened in the first place that grinding became such an integral part of warframe as it is today.

 

I'm not opposed to playing 20 missions to get something that I really want. That is in fact the only motivation there is atm.

But if I played that 20 missions I'd like to get my stuff guaranteed.

 

I have 46 T1 capture keys. They are sitting there being useless. Why should I not grind those for ducats and buy myself a Nova Prime system?

[ZukaBazuka]

Look there is a simple way to fix this, Have the void trader just sell a random amount of void items say around 5-10, each costing 250 ducats and 50k and have him on rotation on the same timer. So now you have to either farm up ducats to afford both the prime mods and those other prime gear he sells and then hope he has that one part you need. The item that show up in the shop can not show up the next time he is in the relay.

 

There solved the market problem and if the item didn't show up for the player he will instead look for a party for that map or try to buy it. Worst case he waits another 2 week to get it. But its his choice.

[low1991]

  I have seen a lot of talk lately about people wanting the Void Trader (Baro Ki'Teel) to sell prime parts for Orokin Ducats. This seems fine on paper, saving many hours or grinding trying to get that last prime part you need. RNG is rarely kind to anyone. But there's a problem here. Being able to create any prime part at a moment's notice would damage the economy, and by extension Warframe's entire free to play model.

Warframe' in-game economy is created in supplies & demanded by players. meaning a player-base economy.

An player-based market (which was introduced by RNG & recently) should never be being to hider or stop the implementation or suggestion of fixing RNG-ness.

 

From the way, i see the current economy is but a an inflation of overpricing & under-pricing in plats on prime parts/BPs being screwed left right center front & back by the bias RNG wall. 

 

If you want warframe in-game economy to improve, the RNG shld be FIXED! introducing prime parts for ducats is but a temporary solution. Further suggestion & improvement will be able to follow after.

Edited January 21, 2015 by low1991

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

Dont forget, it not only DE.

It will break all grind economy.

 

So, u will never buy dmg+status pack, arcane helm or maxed mods, becouse all your prime parts and bp will became rubbish.

[Liminal]

Convenience kills games, especially free to play games. 

While I agree this guy shouldn't sell prime parts, I disagree with this statement. Convenience can kill games, but a lack of it can as well. It's too much of a generalization.

[Ajreil]

Some very valid points have been brought up, and I would like to address them.

 

So the answer of course would be to introduce prime parts to Baro Ki Teer's inventory in light doses and high prices so that even "Traders" can trade junk parts that sell for 0-5p into the more rare parts that actually sell.

It would "empower" the F2P model even further, like a virtual stock market.

Prime parts maintain their value because they are rare, so having a limited stock would not be nearly as large of a hit as having an infinite supply of every prime parts. I would back this approach. In fact, I seem to remember this being mentioned in a Devstream (which one it was escapes me).

 

The Trader doesn't have a grindwall to lower, only an RNG one. DE simply has to set the Ducat cost for Prime Parts above the point they envision people should be able to get it on their own (it should take at least 40 runs to get this, but he's going to need 120 runs' worth of Ducats to get it). It only makes things easier for people who just have bad luck.

No matter how high prices are set, unless his stocks are limited, the price of prime parts will fall dramatically. Yes it might take 120 runs worth of ducats to get an item that takes about 40 run to get, but keep in mind that you will still be selling useless parts (lex prime blueprints, latron parts, boar receivers and the like) to get one valuable part. This also means that I could run a T4 defense mission for a loki prime part AND sell all the lex prime blueprints I got along the way for the cost of another loki part.

 

If this is the case, trading needs an overhaul, or we will forever be at the mercy of overinflated prices thrown out by those who have the will and time to grind through a hundred tower missions for a single part...not to mention a cluttered chatbox that does very poorly the job of an auction house...

Absolutely, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion. Also I think one of the recent devstreams mentioned putting auction houses in relays.

 

You forgot to mention how the massive grindwall frustrates players to such a degree that they quit the game entirely.

Or that the platinum and prime access prices are just ridiculously high.

Or why it happened in the first place that grinding became such an integral part of warframe as it is today.

 

I'm not opposed to playing 20 missions to get something that I really want. That is in fact the only motivation there is atm.

But if I played that 20 missions I'd like to get my stuff guaranteed.

 

I have 46 T1 capture keys. They are sitting there being useless. Why should I not grind those for ducats and buy myself a Nova Prime system?

Prices for platinum and price access are high because developing a game costs money. They are giving you this game free of charge in the hopes that a fraction of it's users will pay for platinum to support this game. In my years of being a hardcore gamer I have never heard of a better F2P model than warframe.

  What you are describing by running T1 keys and turning them into a high value part like the Nova prime systems is exactly the kind of thinking that made me feel the need to write this post. Rather than pulling a rare void part out of thin air, go spend a few dollars and trade the platinum to a player who found the part the hard way. If you need more convincing, feel free to read the post a bit more thoroughly.

  Edit: I saw Nova Prime systems going for over 200p when it first dropped. That means that people were paying real money to get the platinum they needed to buy it from someone farming it the hard way. And it means that someone got a bit over $13 in platinum for playing it the hard game. Good luck finding too many other games that can do that.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Ajreil

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

No matter how high prices are set, unless his stocks are limited, the price of prime parts will fall dramatically. Yes it might take 120 runs worth of ducats to get an item that takes about 40 run to get, but keep in mind that you will still be selling useless parts (lex prime blueprints, latron parts, boar receivers and the like) to get one valuable part. This also means that I could run a T4 defense mission for a loki prime part AND sell all the lex prime blueprints I got along the way for the cost of another loki part.

 

This simply isn't true. It's impossible from an economic standpoint to suggest that enough low value items don't eventually reach the value of a desired one. Unless an item has 0 value, and the Ducats suggest that's not the case. If players are willing to do enough runs, they get the part. If they get lucky, they get the part early. If they don't feel like grinding, they can buy the part. It's up to DE to decide the value they give to parts, and to offer the Ducat price accordingly.

[Loswaith]

.....

Prime parts encourage trading

  Prime parts are valuable. The fact that I have seen so many people wanting the Void Trader to sell a prime part is proof of that. That's a good thing, because it means that as a player, if I really want that last Soma Prime part, I might just be willing to trade something valuable for it. "My hard earned Nova Prime Chassis for your Soma Prime blueprint? It's a deal."  ...

While prime parts can encourage trading SOME parts have a value, while others are difficuilt to even give away (and only have a value because of ducats).  This 'value' drops over time and only the rarest bits have any inherant lasting value (again outside of ducats).

Sadly the vast majority of trades (outside of within clans and friends, which was the kind of trading asked for) are not as your example shows and are only done if platinum is involved, it is often a trade for platinum or bugger off deal.

Then there is the chat channel thats more a massive hinderance to trading than an actual trading system.

 

 

...

Trading gives Platinum a value

  One feature that sets Warframe in a league of it's own as far as it's free to play model is concerned is the fact that Platinum, something that is only created by paying real money, can be traded to other player for other items. Some games make you pay money to progress through the game, or they frustrate you by making you pay money to play the game at all. Not warframe. Warframe lets those who pay for platinum dominate the economy without making those who don't pay feel left out. A player who farms a rare mod or prime part gets platinum in return for the time they spent grinding for it, while someone who paid for the game can buy that same item from them with a few dollars. Everyone wins.

......

Sadly the system doesnt really add value to platinum, it devalues it as more and more platinum is infused into the system and it becomes easier to obtain it actually decreased in its value within the player to player based economy.  One just has to look at prices to see this is exactly as it is going, prime parts when trading came about and for a while after sold for under (or around) 100 plat (for the newer primes), while now commonly accepted 'reasonable prices' are around the 200 platinum point (for newer prime parts).

 

This doesn't let those that purchase platinum dominate the economy so much as those that sell parts to dominate the economy as they are usualy those with the the larger quantites of platinum having purchased a very small percentage (if any at all) of the platinum they have used or own.

At the end of the day it is actually those players that do support the game by purchasing platinum that lose out becuse they will constantly be getting less value for their platinum as prices for newer parts increase with the inflation of platinum in the system.

 

Part of the issue means that players that dont sell parts need to purchase more platinum for what they would gain from DE.  Thus making drops as rare as possible is an incentive for DE as it means players will increase the cost to compensate for the grind to find the parts and those that dont sell parts (typically those that dont grind much either) have to buy more patinum to get parts they want from DE.

All the while these players are less happy with the game and leaving more frequently (and recomending to others to not bother trying the game).  At the end of the day those players selling parts arent those that are purchasing platinum from DE (as they dont need to do so).

 

Having prime parts sold by the trader makes all prime parts more valuable (not just the newest ones) as they are the only way to get Ducats, sure the more rare ones become less valuable but the rare parts are the contention of the repetition within warframe and are by far the smallest group (typically only accounting for 20%-25% of all prime parts).  Above all it removes a huge glut of parts that are droped excessivly from the game as a whole (typically meaning each account takes up less data space, and causes less strain on the system when gathering that information to show to a player).

 

...

Platinum's value encourages people to pay

  Since I made my account about 6 months ago, I have spent about $50 on platinum. With that I have purchased full sets of Frost prime, Rhino prime, a Mag prime part, an arcane helmet, about 20 potatoes, 3 stasis slots, at least 30 slots for weapons/warframes, and a boltor prime part. Try getting that much with your money on a Facebook game.  ...

The factor is with the void trader having the ability to trade for parts means that you would have gotten more value for your platinum.  You may not have needed to purchase the primes you got, instead you could have gotten more slots, or orokin catalysts/reactors, a mod or two you have had trouble farming for or even some cosmetics instead.

Sure you may have gotten more value than from a facebook game, but it doesnt mean you couldn't have gotten more for your money than you did.

 

 

...

The Void Trader would collapse this system

  If the Void Trader sold prime parts, it would lower Warframe's grind wall by at least half. People currently pay other players platinum to get over that grind wall. This would mean less people spending platinum to get prime parts, less people spending money to get it, less money in DE's pocket, and less money on development. The Void Trader would probaby single-handedly stop DE from releasing update 16 on time.

 

The void trader would be trading convenience for future content. Convenience kills games, especially free to play games. Now you know why. Now the fact that he isn't always available, that's something to complain about...

Actually if the void trader sold parts it wouldn't reduce the grind by half, it would just move the grind.  Instead of farming one location trying to get the part you need getting a 100 of parts you dont (as an example), you would stop at say the 20 other parts you could sell to the trader for that part you were after and move to other places to play.  The net result is now there are 80 parts less in the game that you may have sold to other players (thus you did their playing/grinding for them) or used them for ducats to buy the void trader mods.

 

You likely still want the mods however so now you can go anywhere to farm for parts to get the ones you want (since you dont have the incedental accumulation of parts).  You have now diversified the places you can farm at, so instead of doing one map 100 times, making it very stale and boring by the end of it, you can do 5 maps 20 times each meaning the maps are all less stale over the same timeframe.

 

Bordem kills games far quicker than any convenience will achieve as bordem will make you leave the game entirely and not recomend it to others (repeating the same mission with no feeling of progression causes bordem faster).  Convenience will let you play with new stuff or in new places keeping the game fresh and interesting.  This is exacly why DE push out new content all the time dispite there being an abundace of it already.

 

Sure less people will be buying as much platinum (there are still things you can only get with platinum, like cosmetics) but more people will be buying it from DE (and in smaller quantity purchases individual platinum is more expensive, thus more profit for DE) and platinum will have more value on the whole as it will suffer much less from inflation. 

While DE will have more incentive to keep a larger player base, which can only be good for the game as a whole.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Loswaith