Nerfing Nova For The Sake Of Challenging Missions.

[vaugahn]

Hold on now. What some are calling "balance" can also be viewed as not improving the game. That's because you're nerfing something that's a good ability, simply because it isn't fitting the paradigm that you think the game is at the moment.

 

President is right, from his perspective. You are right in your perspective.

 

We could be improving the game by bringing up other powers up to par, rather than hurting a power simply because it is good. We could be increasing the mechanics of our enemies also, making both our powers and our enemies multifunctional and more in-depth. This is improving the game, as rather than stagnating its evolution, this route actually helps to grow it and make it more complex. Far better than nerfing the good for being good.

Simply put, no.

Balance is the idea that similar choices are equally viable. He's conflating balance with gameplay flavor, and then using that misunderstanding to try and shut down conversations about balance. I don't need to explain why that's not constructive.

Furthermore, as I've already explained to you, buffing everything around one thing instead of just nerfing that thing arrives at the same relative place. Any one thing is not meant to be overwhelmingly more powerful than its peers. The irrational fear of nerfs needs to stop. Sometimes we nerf things, sometimes we buff things. We may disagree on what needs to be nerfed or buffed, but the idea that we only need to do one of those is ridiculous.

[MechaKnight]

Mecha, this game isn't just a shooter, that's the thing. You're viewing this game as primarily a shooter, when that isn't the case. Guns make up half of the tools, powers the other half. This game is a mix of many genres, of which both makes it unique and broad.

 

Cooldowns were bad, DE was right to remove them.

Already explained it. Cooldowns only work in games where we are locked in combat with unavoidable enemies. The energy system was okay, but they made energy way too common from a lot of sources. As in, abilities should consume energy like Kohm consumes ammo, but instead it's more like a latron, which almost never really runs out. Either way, an expansion could solve a lot of imbalance.

[AlphaHorseman]

Simply put, no.

Balance is the idea that similar choices are equally viable. He's conflating balance with gameplay flavor, and then using that misunderstanding to try and shut down conversations about balance. I don't need to explain why that's not constructive.

Furthermore, as I've already explained to you, buffing everything around one thing instead of just nerfing that thing arrives at the same relative place. Any one thing is not meant to be overwhelmingly more powerful than its peers. The irrational fear of nerfs needs to stop. Sometimes we nerf things, sometimes we buff things. We may disagree on what needs to be nerfed or buffed, but the idea that we only need to do one of those is ridiculous.

I'll agree that buffs and nerfs are needed. But the multifuctionality of a skill doesn't merit it needs to be nerfed. In the case of powers, I'm of the camp that multifunctionality of powers that creates snyergy and individuality is actually a better route to take. We've seen how going full damage powers doesn't scale well into later content, but powers that possess or are primarily CC/Utility are still useful. To that extent, I'm ecstatic that Nova's MP is a power of multifunctionality that synergizes with her kit very well, not to mention functions well as a stand alone from her kit (though it does need outside help to set off the damage side of its functions).

 

That's what I'm hoping our powers will become one day. And why I'm against nerfing powers that function well and have multifunctionality. MP is a good power, it functions well and completes its purpose.

 

At the same time, I agree that immortality, as was the case with Trinity (many nerfs ago) and the old Blessing was a called for nerf by DE. But MP though, no I believe this skill is good, and hope that we can see such types of multifunctionality to all our powers soon, as this is supposed to be the year of quality.

 

Already explained it. Cooldowns only work in games where we are locked in combat with unavoidable enemies. The energy system was okay, but they made energy way too common from a lot of sources. As in, abilities should consume energy like Kohm consumes ammo, but instead it's more like a latron, which almost never really runs out. Either way, an expansion could solve a lot of imbalance.

True on the availability of energy, but the same could be said about ammo and ammo restores my friend, to be fair.

 

I agree with expansions, I just hope it isn't going to be continued "expansions" of the look of bullet sponges, rather than improving the mechanics of our enemies.

Edited February 2, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[vaugahn]

I'll agree that buffs and nerfs are needed. But the multifuctionality of a skill doesn't merit it needs to be nerfed. In the case of powers, I'm of the camp that multifunctionality of powers that creates snyergy and individuality is actually a better route to take. We've seen how going full damage powers doesn't scale well into later content, but powers that possess or are primarily CC/Utility are still useful. To that extent, I'm ecstatic that Nova's MP is a power of multifunctionality that synergizes with her kit very well, not to mention functions well as a stand alone from her kit (though it does need outside help to set off the damage side of its functions).

 

That's what I'm hoping our powers will become one day. And why I'm against nerfing powers that function well and have multifunctionality. MP is a good power, it functions well and completes its purpose.

 

At the same time, I agree that immortality, as was the case with Trinity (many nerfs ago) and the old Blessing was a called for nerf by DE. But MP though, no I believe this skill is good, and hope that we can see such types of multifunctionality to all our powers soon, as this is supposed to be the year of quality

Well I think one of the real problems there is that those skills can be used far more often than they should be. For a skill that's doing as many things as M Prime does, you should not be able to spam it. The skills themselves often aren't overpowered. If you could only use M Prime sparingly, very few people would have a problem with it.

If we want to keep the spam, then we should seriously consider adjusting the effectiveness of some of those abilities. If we want to keep the effectiveness of those abilities, then we should seriously consider reducing spammability. You only get one, not both.

[TypeSaber]

Well I think one of the real problems there is that those skills can be used far more often than they should be. For a skill that's doing as many things as M Prime does, you should not be able to spam it. The skills themselves often aren't overpowered. If you could only use M Prime sparingly, very few people would have a problem with it.

If we want to keep the spam, then we should seriously consider adjusting the effectiveness of some of those abilities. If we want to keep the effectiveness of those abilities, then we should seriously consider reducing spammability. You only get one, not both.

Why can't you have both exactly? See this is the problem again with people spamming (hah) the word balance. BALANCED TO WHAT!?

I agree with your premise that skills of similar functionality should have similar damage/cc/ability caps so as not to promote one frame as a choice above others. But what does that mean for MPrime? The ability is very very strong for easy content, has good utility, and is thematically cool, it is versatile on how it can be built and isn't overpowered. What are you stating it needs to be balanced to? balance implies a agreed upon medium to build around. One that this game just does not have. We have a good variety of players and playstyles all coexisting for the most part in the same game. its a fallacy to say its disrupting the way you play because honestly, just dont play with those people nobody is forcing you.

(As a note the lack of a kick player option while playing with randoms is a bit of an issue sometimes but a issue deserving of its own topic and not to be discussed in length on this rediculous MPrime Nerf thread)

So kindly stop misusing the world balance. Without an agreed upon medium your use of the word balance is just you saying make the game how I want it.

[AlphaHorseman]

Well I think one of the real problems there is that those skills can be used far more often than they should be. For a skill that's doing as many things as M Prime does, you should not be able to spam it. The skills themselves often aren't overpowered. If you could only use M Prime sparingly, very few people would have a problem with it.

If we want to keep the spam, then we should seriously consider adjusting the effectiveness of some of those abilities. If we want to keep the effectiveness of those abilities, then we should seriously consider reducing spammability. You only get one, not both.

Haha, why not both though? Multifunctionality and availability are both good things.

 

Remember also that not everyone has that luxury, as not everyone has that level of efficiency available to them, or chose not to go for high levels of efficiency.

 

It can be used, but not everyone has that build on their frames, and not all of us even go for those kinds of builds even when we have the tools for it, because they don't fit our builds.

 

The good thing about MPrimes multifunctionality is that it is tied to three aspects to balance it out. Range, Duration, and Power Strength. Without Corrupted mods, you could make it an ability that's "a jack of all trades, master of none", but adding in Corrupted Mods for specialization also sacrifices one aspect or another of the power, to increase another. Thus, it is a very balanced ability when looked at with benefits and detriments.

[vaugahn]

Haha, why not both though? Multifunctionality and availability are both good things.

 

Remember also that not everyone has that luxury, as not everyone has that level of efficiency available to them, or chose not to go for high levels of efficiency.

 

It can be used, but not everyone has that build on their frames, and not all of us even go for those kinds of builds even when we have the tools for it, because they don't fit our builds.

 

The good thing about MPrimes multifunctionality is that it is tied to three aspects to balance it out. Range, Duration, and Power Strength. Without Corrupted mods, you could make it an ability that's "a jack of all trades, master of none", but adding in Corrupted Mods for specialization also sacrifices one aspect or another of the power, to increase another. Thus, it is a very balanced ability when looked at with benefits and detriments.

 

If we want our abilities to have everything, then we need to give a competitive edge to our enemies. This game is about 4 elite warriors facing impossible odds, true, but we shouldn't just be able to faceroll like we do.

 

Even without corrupted mods, M Prime is very strong. It CCs, deals massive damage, and gives damage buffs to teammates. It's doing the job of three other abilities all at once. Imagine if Rhino's Stomp could chain to enemies across the map and had roar built in? There's a fine line between a multifunctional ability and an ability that has no weaknesses. Honestly, I'd suggest splitting M Prime up into two abilities. There's nothing necessarily wrong with how strong it is, it's just doing way too many things at once. I've always felt that wormhole didn't synergize with Nova's kit very well, and moving some aspects of M Prime onto a different ability would make using Nova require slightly more thought than the current "press 4 to wreck faces".

 

-snip-

 

"don't like it don't play it" is not a real response. 

[ThePresident777]

Ignoring the fact that a lot of player like spam and power is not a real response.

[AlphaHorseman]

If we want our abilities to have everything, then we need to give a competitive edge to our enemies. This game is about 4 elite warriors facing impossible odds, true, but we shouldn't just be able to faceroll like we do.

 

Even without corrupted mods, M Prime is very strong. It CCs, deals massive damage, and gives damage buffs to teammates. It's doing the job of three other abilities all at once. Imagine if Rhino's Stomp could chain to enemies across the map and had roar built in? There's a fine line between a multifunctional ability and an ability that has no weaknesses. Honestly, I'd suggest splitting M Prime up into two abilities. There's nothing necessarily wrong with how strong it is, it's just doing way too many things at once. I've always felt that wormhole didn't synergize with Nova's kit very well, and moving some aspects of M Prime onto a different ability would make using Nova require slightly more thought than the current "press 4 to wreck faces".

 

 

"don't like it don't play it" is not a real response. 

I gave examples of expanding enemy functionality through my other posts in this thread, you can read those if you wish.

 

It has weaknesses. Its tied to three aspects, and to max out one leaves the other two lacking. Not to mention the ability itself isn't actually the damage dealer, it's the outside source that sets the bomb off. MP is the gunpowder, the outside source is the spark. You need range for the explosions to be useful with each other, you need duration to make sure your MP actually gets far, and you need Power Strength to ensure a stronger (or weaker) slow effect. For an ultimate, it's great usefulness is tied to it's reliance on different traits. That's very balanced.

 

Oh, and TypeSaber's part wasn't about don't like it don't play it, just letting you know. It was about changing the game to how some people perceive as "Balanced" while others perceive it as changing the game to better suite someone else's play style and needs, rather than being a broad game that allows us the luxury of "to each his/her own."

Edited February 2, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[TypeSaber]

If we want our abilities to have everything, then we need to give a competitive edge to our enemies. This game is about 4 elite warriors facing impossible odds, true, but we shouldn't just be able to faceroll like we do.

 

Even without corrupted mods, M Prime is very strong. It CCs, deals massive damage, and gives damage buffs to teammates. It's doing the job of three other abilities all at once. Imagine if Rhino's Stomp could chain to enemies across the map and had roar built in? There's a fine line between a multifunctional ability and an ability that has no weaknesses. Honestly, I'd suggest splitting M Prime up into two abilities. There's nothing necessarily wrong with how strong it is, it's just doing way too many things at once. I've always felt that wormhole didn't synergize with Nova's kit very well, and moving some aspects of M Prime onto a different ability would make using Nova require slightly more thought than the current "press 4 to wreck faces".

 

 

"don't like it don't play it" is not a real response. 

 

It does have a weakness, Mprime does its job of slowing too well creating clusters of enemy soldiers that stagnate in different rooms. This is often because inexperienced people build so much duration on her but I digress. The result is it turns survival runs into a game of roam to get your enemies because holding in one room doesn't work when they aren't coming into it, no kills, no air, failed run. This in turn greatly weakens the teams ability to respond to threats as they are essentially forced to breach rooms and roam around the map, this means entering rooms that may include threats they were unaware of leaving them in dangerous situations. For example enemies spawning unslowed by Mprime, or Nullifiers. At 60 minutes even tanky frames tend to get IKO'd by one bombad launching a rocket even while slowed.

 

Defense missions have a similar problem at around wave 60 a Mprime has a few times caused a heavy to be slowed down so much that the team gets lulled into a false sense of security, proceeds to pick up the loot, and the MPrime turns off, leaving one &!$$ed of heavy Gunner wiping out the entire party as their backs are turned, or sniping the pod from ages away using their quite frankly absurd ranges sometimes.

 

MPrime is one of those skills that is very strong against enemies your just killing as you move towards them, but once the game turns into a quick-draw contest of cover and tactical aiming, MPrime is in fact a detriment unless built very specifically. I don't know how I can explain this any better, my outlook was born from experimenting with many other frames as well as the nova in a combination of high end and low end content. As well as enough time in both game design and hardcore gaming to understand the different issues of game balance and pleasing ones entire userbase at once. I'm sorry Vaughan but you come off very entitled and self involved with some of your comments towards game balance, try and think about the player base as one of different styles and levels of involvement not just yours.

 

Furthermore, I said don't play with people who don't match your play-style and interests. Outside legitimate abuse-able ability's which cause unrepeatable advancements that are both a necessity and trivialize content at all levels of the game. (Im looking at you original trinity blessing) there is not really anything in warframe that needs to be nerfed currently. Just a whole lot of stuff that needs to be buffed. As well as stronger enemies, better rewards, and a much greater control on variable difficulty given to the players. We could spend the next month straight listing all the weapons and individual frame ability's that aren't up to scratch, lack a versatile roll of their own or are just bad, but that should be in a thread of its own not here. Not in a thread as stupid as "nerfing Nova for the sake of balance." ick

Edited February 2, 2015 by TypeSaber

[akira_him]

If we want our abilities to have everything, then we need to give a competitive edge to our enemies. This game is about 4 elite warriors facing impossible odds, true, but we shouldn't just be able to faceroll like we do.

[RealPandemonium]

 

If we want our abilities to have everything, then we need to give a competitive edge to our enemies. This game is about 4 elite warriors facing impossible odds, true, but we shouldn't just be able to faceroll like we do.

 

 

 

[ThePresident777]

So this is what "balance" comes down to, just calling names on content one doesn't like.  Anybody can do that.  It's not a compelling argument.  No one opposing the nerfs is saying that people who want the nerfs can't have the nerfs.  What people opposing nerfs are saying is, not at their expense.  Some how the proponents for nerfs can't seem to have their nerfs if it's not at the expense of people who do not want them.

[TypeSaber]

So this is what "balance" comes down to, just calling names on content one doesn't like.  Anybody can do that.  It's not a compelling argument.  No one opposing the nerfs is saying that people who want the nerfs can't have the nerfs.  What people opposing nerfs are saying is, not at their expense.  Some how the proponents for nerfs can't seem to have their nerfs if it's not at the expense of people who do not want them.

Uh what?

Edited February 2, 2015 by TypeSaber

[AlphaHorseman]

So this is what "balance" comes down to, just calling names on content one doesn't like.  Anybody can do that.  It's not a compelling argument.  No one opposing the nerfs is saying that people who want the nerfs can't have the nerfs.  What people opposing nerfs are saying is, not at their expense.  Some how the proponents for nerfs can't seem to have their nerfs if it's not at the expense of people who do not want them.

I'm lost...

[Xardis]

Yeach, take away any ability that has utility so endgame will be even harder. utility does not scale with time, damage do. thats why loki's disarm is good, thats why nyx's chaos is good and thats why vauban's vortex is good. good abilities give utility, if you need damage you have a weapon for it.

[Me.KayOh]

Lmao...nerf nova talk coming back.....scott should just tak

e a machete to all frames at this point. I see "40 WAVES" keeps being mentioned...but endless content is endless....not 40 waves or 40mins or however long the OP plays for.

I highly believe that this is a biased with no real premise...because if he wants to say this about nova, then silly argument will carry over to other frames like rhino, banshee, saryn etc. all of who can make 40 waves of enemies seem like cake walk.

If the op wants a challenge with nova, try lowering her conclave...or better yet, try a mobility/survivability build on her and see how far you get in the void.

OP not sounding like his problem is using nova; his problem is other people using nova, which is just lame.

[ThePresident777]

Uh what?

 

 

I'm lost...

 

 

Someone answers nullifiers, another person answers band-aid.  That's not a real response.  It's fine if someone feels that nullifiers are boring.  They need something else to fight.  But nerfs are not a universal solution.  Challenges have to be created and there is no such thing as a universal challenge.

Edited February 2, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Sakatchi]

Missions are plenty challenging even with her outside the starmap. If you ever been a hour into a t4 survival, you'll be thankful shes there. Also with the new derped spawn rate and how nullifiers like to spawn in packs of 6 you'll still get your challenge due to nullifers spawining in packs of six.

[ThePresident777]

Keep in mind what Warframe is about.  It's rather bold:

 

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

 

Warframe abilities should be more interesting than just doing one thing and so should the enemy.  Nerfing the Warframes means that they have less potential, they are less bold, they are lame.  This ripples to the rest of the game because if the Tenno have nothing to challenge then there is no point to challenging them.  All non-Tenno content may as well be dull too if the Tenno are going to be dull.  There is no sense to a capability if it can't be countered in some way, even a counter so simple as raw numerical advantage.

 

That Mprime is multi-faceted means that the enemy can be multi-faceted too.  The idea that Mprime has too many facets can easily and more effectively be implemented as enemy capability, or other externality, than nerfing Mprime.  An enemy that counters a Tenno facet offers the Tenno potential that doesn't exist if the Tenno are not first multi-faceted.

Edited February 2, 2015 by ThePresident777

[vaugahn]

I gave examples of expanding enemy functionality through my other posts in this thread, you can read those if you wish.

 

It has weaknesses. Its tied to three aspects, and to max out one leaves the other two lacking. Not to mention the ability itself isn't actually the damage dealer, it's the outside source that sets the bomb off. MP is the gunpowder, the outside source is the spark. You need range for the explosions to be useful with each other, you need duration to make sure your MP actually gets far, and you need Power Strength to ensure a stronger (or weaker) slow effect. For an ultimate, it's great usefulness is tied to it's reliance on different traits. That's very balanced.

 

Oh, and TypeSaber's part wasn't about don't like it don't play it, just letting you know. It was about changing the game to how some people perceive as "Balanced" while others perceive it as changing the game to better suite someone else's play style and needs, rather than being a broad game that allows us the luxury of "to each his/her own."

 

And we're back to relative balance. Buffing everything up around something is the same end result as nerfing that thing. And that does not preclude the existence of new enemy techniques.

 

Note that I don't actually have any serious problem with M Prime. If I had to pick things I would say need nerfing, it wouldn't be one of them. I'm just trying to get across that this whole "buffs only" mentality is patently absurd.

 

Keep in mind what Warframe is about.  It's rather bold:

 

Warframe abilities should be more interesting than just doing one thing and so should the enemy.  Nerfing the Warframes means that they have less potential, they are less bold, they are lame.  This ripples to the rest of the game because if the Tenno have nothing to challenge then there is no point to challenging them.  All non-Tenno content may as well be dull too if the Tenno are going to be dull.  There is no sense to a capability if it can't be countered in some way, even a counter so simple as raw numerical advantage.

 

That Mprime is multi-faceted means that the enemy can be multi-faceted too.  The idea that Mprime has too many facets can easily and more effectively be implemented as enemy capability, or other externality, than nerfing Mprime.  An enemy that counters a Tenno facet offers the Tenno potential that doesn't exist if the Tenno are not first multi-faceted.

 

Look, it's good that you continue to respond. But try to stay on topic.

 

Nobody is suggesting that tenno should be dull. Nobody is suggesting that abilities should be boring. Stop conflating balance with gameplay mechanics.

[LisRestall]

Because 30% slow, x2 damage multiplier and 1600 (800*2) blast damage that is doubled for each enemy that exploded and has no fall-off within range is not overpowered enough. They must reach to the point that the skill spreads to more than 60 meters easily with just a few duration mods and 75% slow because dodging ain't their thing, they don't enjoy something they can't do. Like someone mentioned, enemies are still facing them when Mprime is applied, yup, you don't strafe to the sides after using Mprime, just still brainlessly fight them head-on.

[BladeAsh]

People will always find something to complain about.

It`s a game people, start playing not qqing.

[ThePresident777]

Those stats are context free.  The context includes people who enjoy playing with that kind of power.  The context includes all sorts of externalities not being factored such as enemies, maps, missions, etc.  As I stated before the nerfs would be better as enemy abilities, etc.  Games are better off being unique rather than following "balance" idealogies that ignore the fact that players have fun.  In fact, one of Warframe's basic premises is players having fun in unconventional ways.  Unconventionality is not achievable by following "the rules".

Edited February 2, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Ghost]

I don't think she's over-powered at all! Infact I don't do as well with her as I do with Loki, Hydroid or even Banshee.

But hey that's the magic of Warframe; one man's "over-powered" frame is another man's "under-powered" frame.