The Rhino Syndrome

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I'll tell you how: look at in-game stats usage of any large clan - Rhino will be the most overall used, or at least second most used. It's also backed up by several suveys where Rhino came as one of the most popular and most used.

BTW the stats of sentinels usage are bogus, again you can check clan stats - its Carrier ~70% (Kubrows are counted separately, but still those stats have nothing to do with real usage, they might be from the time when Kobrows were new and many used them indeed, but not overall)

The stats presented were the stats for the time period (I think it was a week)

It does not reflect large clans, veteran players, and how many hours they have put into their companions, just how much usage the playerbase had overall. 

None of these stats are bogus. They represent different things.

[Thaumatos]

If you didn´t catch my meaning, I meant that progression rate we had then.

We had no progression then.... (the same as we have now)

 

What are you talking about?

[geninrising]

Part of those stats that are stated showing Rhino as one of the most used frames is due to the fact that Rhino is the second frame and a welcome change from the squishee frame you start as. Thus Rhino gets a solid amount of play time whereas other frames fall a bit short of his total time due to acquiring them later in game, other frames having little viability in Nightmare mode missions, and some people just preferring tank roles over DPS.

Add to that the ease of acquiring Rhino Prime versus some of the other prime variants and it's quite easy to see why there is a plethora of players that utilize Rhino OVER TIME.

 

In end game scenarios you encounter Rhino, however their occurrences are few and far between because some players have not learned necessary skills to continue his use effectively. 

[LazyKnight]

Ok lets get to the core of the problem, shall we? People are not learning the game relying on a beginner frame - Rhino - that makes early levels very easy, thus they arrive to high level game unprepared and fail. So the problem is that they don't learn, not the Rhino in particular. 'Rhino noobs' is only a symptom of a bigger issue.

We need the game to be better at teaching players. If you want to improve education level you don't make students life harder, you improve schools, you publish better guides and textbooks and even more important - make them more accessable. 

I would argue that there are problems, major problems, with several Warframes, Rhino is just where it is most obvious. The same complaints that can be levied against a rhino can be used against those that play invisibility Loki. Neither take any skill, yet Rhino gets the heat for being a noob's choice. There is not a difference between them, except one scales and the other does not.  There are several new Warframses that are far easier to play than rhino and they do not have a learning curve either. 

 

If you want people to learn the game's mechanics, it requires playing any warframe without powers.

Edited January 25, 2015 by LazyKnight

[BaIthazar]

which leads to those inexperienced players in later missions, facetanking everything while shooting with their Somas, standing still.

 

*Sweats Nervously*

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Even that's only part of the problem. I generally agreed with you until you hit "LAZINESS". Another large part of the problem is that, because our abilities are powerful without challenge and can be modded into having few, if any, limits, the only challenge in this game comes from taking away the things we have or making them irrelevant. They come from things completely unavoidable attacks, like Seeker and Ballistica shots, Slash procs from hitscan enemies, Toxic Eximi procs that cover a huge range and offer no way of attacking the target without charging through and hoping to get lucky, and Hellion rockets. They come from enemy buffs to the point of rendering weapons useless, shown with Ancients stacking over and over as well as Nullifier bubbles. They come from debuffing us so we can't use the skills we're supposed to rely on, as shown with Nullifiers and Parasitic Eximi.

This game alternates between leaving you bored when you can use your superpowers and weapons, and leaving you feeling punished when you can't. In this game, difficulty doesn't come from pushing our skills to the limits, because they too often have no limits. Instead, difficulty comes from taking our skills away. This is why nerfing, villified by gamers everywhere, must happen in this game. We cannot have our limits pushed if we have none; we cannot have our skills tested if nothing can test them; we cannot feel progression if it's only something to be taken from us.

Iron Skin is like a microcosm of the problem, but the problem extends to every component of our arsenals. It's not laziness; it's players being unable to feel progression because they have already achieved god-like status. The game trained them to win with it, and it only feels like a punishment to them when they no longer can rely on it because they were given no other skills.

Mario teaches players to jump early on, and then teaches them to get better at it, and then asks them to do it better when the game gets harder. Warframe with Rhino teaches players to Iron Skin early on, then teaches them nothing, and then tells them to throw it out when the game gets harder. Warframe as a whole teaches players to spam abilities and oneshot enemies, then teaches them nothing, and then tells them their guns no longer work and their abilities no longer work when the game gets harder. This is just bad progression.

This in and of itself right here.

[TheRealBadWolf]

So this is why i had to go revive the same Rhino 10 times the other day. Playing as a Nova it should be the other way around. If at all.

[Setsuna_Major]

I honestly don't remember the last time I saw a Rhino in any mission, barring when I played as him myself.

[Dillon_J]

Like people have said above, just dont play with them. Not rocket science.

[Clay_Blockss]

Hold there, pony boy. Here's the deal. Mastery rank is supposed to be a measure of experience, no? Though most of the time it works for its purpose, it has two major flaws: It's based solely around how many items you have ranked, and you have to manually rank up. These two things make it a horrible measure of how much you have actually played the game. You could have ranked up half the items in the game to 30, but be only MR2 because you don"t feel like taking the tests or dealing with anything. Still, you've got plenty of experience, just dont feel like ranking up. So you have your rhino prime, you're pretty happy, and now higher MR players are rejecting you because they find you have no experience. Now where are you? Simple answer, perfectly proficient player being rejected for a bad reason. And there's only one thing you can do now: rank test after rank test. You need to go fast, so you use rhino. Maybe when you're done, you've found that you like rhino, so you keep using him. Theres nothing wrong with people who use rhino, other than the fact that people hate them for it. Deal with it A******, if you don't like the frames others are using, play solo. I myself play rhino very rarely, but guess what? I dont give a F*** when people do. Let it go.

[traybong111]

IIRC, the starter frames are Excalibur, Mag and Volt right now. All of them are quite squishy and will die very quickly when more than 2 Grineer Lancers start shooting at them. 

 

This so-called 'Rhino Syndrome' reaches much deeper than the fact that his Iron Skin needs some kind of revisiting, it's also an important part of Warframe's weird difficulty that starts out nigh-impossible for newbies but gets way too easy for veterans who have acquired better mods. There have been a lot of suggestions to ameliorate this (one I especially liked was to give players a yellow potato at the end of Vor's Prize quest that they HAVE to use on their starter frame) but I still think the difference a newbie faces between their squishy starter and much more resilient Rhino is far too wide. When a newbie doesn't have access to better mods and the credits to improve on their Redirection/Vitality mods, it's really the frame's abilities and raw stats that will make the difference in survival and perceived difficulty. 

 

The easiest and quickest suggestion I can think of would be to increase the starters' armor/EHP/general survival or maybe replace Mag with Ember (who has 100 armor now...I mean come on, at least Excal and Volt could use some armor buff) so it's not such an I'M ALIIIIVE moment when someone gets his/her hands on Rhino & Iron Skin. Rhino should offer interesting choices and playstyle, not a 'this is the only frame that can take hits.' 

 

Other than that, and risking going off-topic, I think with some tweaks Rhino'd fit for what a 'well-balanced' frame is, with his Iron Skin being able to take hits in the early game but requiring drastic rethinking when facing higher level content. And yes, Iron Shrapnel is awesome, thank you DE. 

[sappinmahsentry]

All I do is run around with Nyxcalibur (seeing enemies kill eachother amuses me), Hydroid (or Volt), and Trin, I only use the rhino for rep farming, anybody else? Anybody?

Edited January 26, 2015 by sappinmahsentry

[RiouHotaru]

1) Rhino is a fantastic frame for people who can't find groups because he's incredibly sturdy.  There's a reason he's available so early on.  I'm almost 100% that's intentional.

 

2) Locking Prime Weapons behind anything BUT Mastery is an awful idea and that train of thought needs to stop.  Yes, Boltor Prime is ridiculously good but let's be fair it's not easy to get unless you're willing to shell out a ton of plat and in that case you've got money to burn.  There's plenty of weapons comparable to Boltor Prime already in existence.

[sanj66]

This annoying and disgusting way to play has spread over the community for a long time now, just like a virus. After the trade system was released, high end prime weapons accessibility has been so easy that even a mastery 3 player may obtain a full prime set for himself. 

 

Before trading the problem that rot the game was that you could access Rhino way too early. That frame is all okay for me but iron skin as an ability is way too good in those early missions, which leads to those inexperienced players in later missions, facetanking everything while shooting with their Somas, standing still.

 

Now you are able to access the whole endgame set after just a couple hours of playing. And guess what frame most of the people are getting? :___: The freaking all great Rhino Prime, and of course with the Boltor Prime to make it worse. Now you try to host a T4 Survival just for fun when half of your invite requests are something like "inv plzz rhino prime" -> i check the profile, mastery 3. I skip that player. 

This is getting out of control. I liked Rhino a little one year ago. Now i see only these mindless animals just acting like some bad bots walking towards enemies with their golden skin on, they stop, and start shooting with their Boltors, which I nowadays mind as the mating call of a this wild Rhino. 

 

So what is the point of this post then? 

1) Take the Iron Skin away or change it. Those players, playing 85% of the time with Rhino will NEVER get ANY better in this game. Same old formula. Iron skin, run, locate enemies, stop and stand still, shoot, win.

2) Trade system is a great thing but definitely broken, giving recently started players a change to get end game weapons instantly. After they have played +100 hours only Rhino+Boltor combo they are leaved with only a few better weapons to play with in the future and a really narrow Warframe experience.

 

Just bring back that old beginning of Warframe. Various good weapons to choose from while progressing and getting better. I dont want to see that golden juice covered frame in my life anymore, it ruins the fun. I just want to hear that what you think about this. <__<

Sorry for hating, here´s a potato for you. <3

 

 

no offence but you seem to think rhino is itself the problem, rhino is not mainly the problem, its the players, to remove iron skin would make him one of the worst tank frames in game, noting that only he and frost are the actual tanks but yet are out tanked by support,caster and berserker frames. iron skin as it is is aproduct of the players, people cried about god mode, which DE had a problem with and they removed his duration based iteration, though it seems ok for valkyr to have god mode......, then the damage mitigation iteration which was better, and needed a bit of a learning curve as you still take damage, but it scaled and wasnt a damage shield, but people wanted their shields to recharge and we got this bogus rubbish of ferrite armor. also rhino prime and boltor prime are not op weapons as people make them out to be, i main rhino for over a year now because of how he looks, i dont even use IS until 20-25 mins into a t4s or unless someone is downed before that. there are more powerful "nooby" frames than rhino, loki for instance, needs no corrupted build no set of thinking into his build and he can walk past the star chart and scale into late game in voids, nyx the ultimate cc frame in a game where cc is really what matters in the "hard" content, nova etc. sure IS needs to be reworked maybe be reverted to the damage reduction iteration, so it can scale and still make you think about what shots you can take and yes farmed prime gear should be mr locked like the dakra etc.

[Kungpaobeef]

Rhino was my fourth frame. I got him at MR5, built him, maxed him, and decided I disliked him. First off, I don't even have stretch on my rhino and rhino stomp has a range further than my frames with stretch on. Second, iron skin. Way too nooby of a tactic. Wait until a couple rotations into t3/4 and they'll just keep standing there, shooting their guns and not noticing that their formerly invincible silk skin has gone. Rhino is MR locked(MR2), but he is obtained through the second boss that players encounter so..........................

Rhino p on the other hand.....Even though I dislike the Rhino series, it still hurts me when I see a MR4 with a rhino prime go down multiple times on Saturn or something. 

-Now, I will describe the typical Rhinoob player. Iron skin-tank-tank-shoot-shoot-shoot-tank-tank-tank-shoot-shoot-reload-shoot more-*big crowd of enemies*-rhino stomp-shoot more-tank-tank-recast iron skin-tank-tank-shoot-shoot-tank. Notice how I didn't include rhino charge or roar in this list... The only time they move is to get an enemy in their line of sight...

 

*Also, ignore the rhino I have in my prof. It's just a placeholder that I'm too lazy to change*

Edited January 27, 2015 by Kungpaobeef

[Kungpaobeef]

rhino and frost are the actual tanks but yet are out tanked by support,caster and berserker frames. 

You do realize that Valkyr and Saryn are true tanks right? It's more about the armor ratings than her abilities....Rhino is only considered tankier than most frames because of Iron skin. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by Kungpaobeef

[Holeypaladin]

You do realize that Valkyr and Saryn are true tanks right? It's more about the armor ratings than her abilities....Rhino is only considered tankier than most frames because of Iron skin. 

Valkyr is a berserker.

 

Saryn doesn't have a single damage reduction ability, only a decoy ability, so she's no tank at all.  Just slow.  A slow caster with a room-nuking corrosive spell.

 

Armor is pretty worthless in Warframe unless you have over 300 of it, so the only frame with tanky armor is Valkyr who is a bit broken.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Kungpaobeef]

Valkyr is a berserker.

 

Saryn doesn't have a single damage reduction ability, only a decoy ability, so she's no tank at all.  Just slow.  A slow caster with a room-nuking corrosive spell.

 

Armor is pretty worthless in Warframe unless you have over 300 of it, so the only frame with tanky armor is Valkyr who is a bit broken.

Saryn has the second most amount of armor in the game and she has pretty high health(1110 with max vitality)

Although most people don't have regenerative molt, the mod makes her an ultimate tank that no one can beat. Just slap on some power efficiency mods and you're invincible so long as you keep casting molt.

[sanj66]

You do realize that Valkyr and Saryn are true tanks right? It's more about the armor ratings than her abilities....Rhino is only considered tankier than most frames because of Iron skin. 

valkyr is a berserker, the bump in armor was a bandaid to aid her survivability, rhino is actually named as a tank by DE in his video none of the others are, and by their code names prior to release and initial release stats none of these other frames are actually meant to be tanks, some became tanky like i said due to bandaid fixes to help them survive. valkyr was never meant to be a tank, neither is trinity.

Edited January 27, 2015 by sanj66

[Holeypaladin]

Saryn actually has the fourth highest armor, behind Valkyr, Rhino, and Frost.

 

Regenerative most is the closest thing she has to a tanking ability, but it's really a self-heal.  It provides less healing than iron skin provides artificial health, so it's a weaker ability than even iron skin, and that's saying a lot since iron skin is the weakest defensive power at high levels.

[geninrising]

You do realize that Valkyr and Saryn are true tanks right? It's more about the armor ratings than her abilities....Rhino is only considered tankier than most frames because of Iron skin. 

 

Saryn has the second most amount of armor in the game and she has pretty high health(1110 with max vitality)

Although most people don't have regenerative molt, the mod makes her an ultimate tank that no one can beat. Just slap on some power efficiency mods and you're invincible so long as you keep casting molt.

Careful folks we either have a troll or someone who is truly ignorant of all things in WF.

[-CM-Shymaw]

no offence but you seem to think rhino is itself the problem, rhino is not mainly the problem, its the players, to remove iron skin would make him one of the worst tank frames in game, noting that only he and frost are the actual tanks but yet are out tanked by support,caster and berserker frames. iron skin as it is is aproduct of the players, people cried about god mode, which DE had a problem with and they removed his duration based iteration, though it seems ok for valkyr to have god mode......, then the damage mitigation iteration which was better, and needed a bit of a learning curve as you still take damage, but it scaled and wasnt a damage shield, but people wanted their shields to recharge and we got this bogus rubbish of ferrite armor. also rhino prime and boltor prime are not op weapons as people make them out to be, i main rhino for over a year now because of how he looks, i dont even use IS until 20-25 mins into a t4s or unless someone is downed before that. there are more powerful "nooby" frames than rhino, loki for instance, needs no corrupted build no set of thinking into his build and he can walk past the star chart and scale into late game in voids, nyx the ultimate cc frame in a game where cc is really what matters in the "hard" content, nova etc. sure IS needs to be reworked maybe be reverted to the damage reduction iteration, so it can scale and still make you think about what shots you can take and yes farmed prime gear should be mr locked like the dakra etc.

 

That IS the problem.... People who don´t see the problem with Rhino´s skills. Iron skin is useless in lategame and spoils the game early on. And that what you are trying to do is to move the "nooby" title to other frames. Loki is still one of the most hardest frames to play in high level void (1H T4 Survival for example) You have to know exactly what to do, and how, and when. Also he´s the most fragile frame in the whole game and when going past level 105-110 enemies, one corrupted lancers misfire have the potential to kill you, while you are invisible. And how the heck you will survive there without a proper build? I´ve played Loki/Loki Prime for 250 hours so I think that i can easily tell how´s the frame like, also comparing other frames. And my T4 Survival corrupted build is (Overextended, Stretch, Redirection, Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Narrow Minded, Streamline, Irradiating Disarm.) <3

[unknow99]

I agree but blame their playstyle,not the frame.

I met people who used Rhino & kept their brain working while playing.

 

_{These run & gun people... -_-}

[Kungpaobeef]

Careful folks we either have a troll or someone who is truly ignorant of all things in WF.

My bad haven't checked the wiki in a while/not updated. Though I do feel like my valkyr "bandaid" is so much better than rhino's iron skin. Idk if I just had coincidences where I was with lots of rhinoobs, but often rhino's would go down far before my valkyr would and I wasn't even using hysteria all that much...

[ZechsX18999]

I've seen lots of Boltor Primes, but not alot of Rhinos. Rhino isn't even that good.