Serration Needs To Be Removed

[Easywinz]

I would love to see this: 

Remove all Mods that increase damage like serration-split chamber etc.

Make a cap on max level on Mobs (es 50). rebalance mobs hp-armor.

Replace endless modes with a rotation D that spawn a random hard boss that drop good things.

[Indfernox]

Getting damage when your weapon levels up is not a solution, the slot would be free so we can put another elemental mod, so more damage. In my opinion it should be leave like this.

[KingIzek]

whatever you say. i dont think most would agree with you

Well on this note I actually agree with his sentiment on wyrm. Plus for vaccum its more of a "nice to have" in my opinion. Generally if you see a mod/orb/whatever you need drop you'll just run to it. Actually I frankly don't see many people using carriers. Even on rep farming maps. you'd figure that would be THE place to use it.

[Dio_Brando]

why do people not use ammo drum or reload speed mods

[Ov3rd0se]

Most weapons reload speed isn't that bad save for Gorgon and a select few others. 

 

 

 

Also removing serration won't fix anything.

[Tyrian3k]

 I feel the same.

 

 The problems with the weapon balance aren't entirely the fault of the Weapons. There are other more important factors.

 

 Removing serration wont do anything at all save for weaken the Player character so that content that Serration was more or less mandatory for will suddenly be nearly impossible without metagaming even harder.

 

 

You assume that DE won't either put the damage bonus from Serration into the weapon progression or rebalance the enemies' health to fit with our new damage output which is not something you should assume.

 

And the fact that Serration and Split Chamber are mandatory on every build ever is exactly the reason why they should go. The mod system is for customization, to make builds for specific situations. Serration and Split Chamber are on every build regardless of the situation and thus aren't part of the actual customization.

[AureusVulpes]

whatever you say. i dont think most would agree with you

 

Let's take a look at the value of CC then?

 

What are generally considered top-tier frames for T4? Frames with CC, the ability to control enemies, and Frames that facilitate the use of those abilities. T4 being considered the "hardest" content, shows the value of CC in a difficult fight.

 

Carrier's vacuum ability is great for picking up ammo, mods, energy, and air capsules in a hurry and without having to specifically look for them. While useful, the effective passive pickup range is much larger than it was a long time ago. I actually haven't used carrier since that buff, and I haven't felt pressured at all to collect pickups. With practice, many players learn to move while shooting, picking up items that they need while doing so.

[Blatantfool]

 I feel like your heart is in the right place wanting the game to roll smoother in regards to balance but you're not looking at the whole picture if you think this type of solution fixes anything.

 

 You're right. Serration and Split Chamber and whatever are all more or less mandatory mods for every weapon. Before you put anything else in a weapon you add one of those. It's just how things work. 

 

 Typically it goes even further than that. It's safe to assume that almost everyone's build is going to be set up in the hopes of maximizing DPS. In fact I've taken to just referring to any weapon using that build mentality as a 'DPScannon' purely because that seems to be the idea behind it.

 

 

 So the question is "Why is this mandatory? Why do players swear by this and let other mods rot?"

 

 The answer isn't found in the Weapons mods. It's found in the Enemies we fight. Not Mercury level crap, a fart kills them. Not earth or Jupiter either. I'm talking about the kind of enemies you cope with while doing 40 wave rotations in T4. I'm talking about the kind of problems you face when attempting to clear Draco as fast as humanly possible to further maximize efficiency.

 

 In Warframe a weapons value is dictated first and foremost by how long it can last against the naturally steep enemy stat scaling in-game. It goes without saying that a weapon that is capable of a comfortable 2-3 second kill time even against level 80-90 foes will be considered a purely better weapon than a weapon that started to become useless against level 60-70 foes.

 

 The higher up the enemy level goes the shorter their kill times get as they shoot at you. Eventually enemies even reach damage that gives them kill times equal and under a second. For this reason weapons that can maintain their own short kill times against these foes are necessary. Everything that shaves a half second off is better then everything that can't. Purely better.

 

 So what significance does that have? Well. It means that removing mods like Serration - even if you replace them with equally powerful mods that add situational damage - will lengthen our kill times while the enemies remain the same. It means the ceiling for how far players can go before enemies can kill them faster than players can kill the horde will be that much lower.

 

 It will simply be impossible to fix weapon balance without fixing the reasons players rely on broken weapons.

 

 "But you could just add Serration's damage to weapons as a part of their ranking progression!"

 

 That'd be the same as just adding another mod slot. You'd just have an invisible Serration equipped on every R30 Gun and have on extra slot open for what'd probably just be another damage mod for most people. This solve absolutely nothing. You still have exactly the same DPS Meta only now players are slightly stronger since they can fit another damage mod in.

 

 This wont increase variety. It'll just slightly alter the meta build.

[Dio_Brando]

You assume that DE won't either put the damage bonus from Serration into the weapon progression or rebalance the enemies' health to fit with our new damage output which is not something you should assume.

 

And the fact that Serration and Split Chamber are mandatory on every build ever is exactly the reason why they should go. The mod system is for customization, to make builds for specific situations. Serration and Split Chamber are on every build regardless of the situation and thus aren't part of the actual customization.

finally a person who understands

[Dio_Brando]

 I feel like your heart is in the right place wanting the game to roll smoother in regards to balance but you're not looking at the whole picture if you think this type of solution fixes anything.

 

 You're right. Serration and Split Chamber and whatever are all more or less mandatory mods for every weapon. Before you put anything else in a weapon you add one of those. It's just how things work. 

 

 Typically it goes even further than that. It's safe to assume that almost everyone's build is going to be set up in the hopes of maximizing DPS. In fact I've taken to just referring to any weapon using that build mentality as a 'DPScannon' purely because that seems to be the idea behind it.

 

 

 So the question is "Why is this mandatory? Why do players swear by this and let other mods rot?"

 

 The answer isn't found in the Weapons mods. It's found in the Enemies we fight. Not Mercury level crap, a fart kills them. Not earth or Jupiter either. I'm talking about the kind of enemies you cope with while doing 40m rotations in T4. I'm talking about the kind of problems you face when attempting to clear Draco as fast as humanly possible to further maximize efficiency.

 

 In Warframe a weapons value is dictated first and foremost by how long it can last against the naturally steep enemy stat scaling in-game. It goes without saying that a weapon that is capable of a comfortable 2-3 second kill time even against level 80-90 foes will be considered a purely better weapon than a weapon that started to become useless against level 60-70 foes.

 

 The higher up the enemy level goes the shorter their kill times get as they shoot at you. Eventually enemies even reach damage that gives them kill times equal and under a second. For this reason weapons that can maintain their own short kill times against these foes are necessary. Everything that shaves a half second off is better then everything that can't. Purely better.

 

 So what significance does that have? Well. It means that removing mods like Serration - even if you replace them with equally powerful mods that add situational damage - will lengthen our kill times while the enemies remain the same. It means the ceiling for how far players can go before enemies can kill them faster than players can kill the horde will be that much lower.

 

 "But you could just add Serration's damage to weapons as a part of their ranking progression!"

 

 That'd be the same as just adding another mod slot. You'd just have an invisible Serration equipped on every R30 Gun and have on extra slot open for what'd probably just be another damage mod for most people. This solve absolutely nothing. You still have exactly the same DPS Meta only now players are slightly stronger since they can fit another damage mod in.

 

 This wont increase variety. It'll just slightly alter the meta build.

you wouldnt be forced to put elemental damage, you are given a choice. it opens up the choice of variety and isnt mandatory

[VampirePirate]

just like vacuum should be a standard sentinel mod, serration must be removed. serration destroys customization and creativity. i want to be able to use the other sentinels more but i don't because vacuum is the only useful mod. i want to increase my reload speed but i cant because i need to use damage mods. its the same thing. just remove serration and apply its bonus per level as the community has suggested. it will cultivate creativity in the modding system. 

You can remove Serration yourself and simply not use it.  You are not forced to use it.   However, you won't cease using it.   That makes your request a contradiction.  I know you disagree, and I know others will also disagree, but none of you will make any sense when demanding the devs to do something you can do on your own.

[DarkLordX2]

Plus, i must add that, Serration takes time, cores and credits to max, adding damage while your weapon levels up will kill this porgress, and no effort will be needed to do so.

 

How about the people who maxed their serrations? Should their effort be ignored, and remove serration without any compensation, however, by removing serration, you will just give people another mod slot so they can put another damage/elemental mod, hence, power creep happens.

[Aercascade]

 I feel like your heart is in the right place wanting the game to roll smoother in regards to balance but you're not looking at the whole picture if you think this type of solution fixes anything.

 

 You're right. Serration and Split Chamber and whatever are all more or less mandatory mods for every weapon. Before you put anything else in a weapon you add one of those. It's just how things work. 

 

 Typically it goes even further than that. It's safe to assume that almost everyone's build is going to be set up in the hopes of maximizing DPS. In fact I've taken to just referring to any weapon using that build mentality as a 'DPScannon' purely because that seems to be the idea behind it.

 

 

 So the question is "Why is this mandatory? Why do players swear by this and let other mods rot?"

 

 The answer isn't found in the Weapons mods. It's found in the Enemies we fight. Not Mercury level crap, a fart kills them. Not earth or Jupiter either. I'm talking about the kind of enemies you cope with while doing 40 wave rotations in T4. I'm talking about the kind of problems you face when attempting to clear Draco as fast as humanly possible to further maximize efficiency.

 

 In Warframe a weapons value is dictated first and foremost by how long it can last against the naturally steep enemy stat scaling in-game. It goes without saying that a weapon that is capable of a comfortable 2-3 second kill time even against level 80-90 foes will be considered a purely better weapon than a weapon that started to become useless against level 60-70 foes.

 

 The higher up the enemy level goes the shorter their kill times get as they shoot at you. Eventually enemies even reach damage that gives them kill times equal and under a second. For this reason weapons that can maintain their own short kill times against these foes are necessary. Everything that shaves a half second off is better then everything that can't. Purely better.

 

 So what significance does that have? Well. It means that removing mods like Serration - even if you replace them with equally powerful mods that add situational damage - will lengthen our kill times while the enemies remain the same. It means the ceiling for how far players can go before enemies can kill them faster than players can kill the horde will be that much lower.

 

 "But you could just add Serration's damage to weapons as a part of their ranking progression!"

 

 That'd be the same as just adding another mod slot. You'd just have an invisible Serration equipped on every R30 Gun and have on extra slot open for what'd probably just be another damage mod for most people. This solve absolutely nothing. You still have exactly the same DPS Meta only now players are slightly stronger since they can fit another damage mod in.

 

 This wont increase variety. It'll just slightly alter the meta build.

+1 to this.

Pretty much sums up my feels.

I don't think the damage mods are the problem here, it's just how this game is. I wish our weapons scaled with our enemies but that's just not going to happen now is it?

[Blatantfool]

you wouldnt be forced to put elemental damage, you are given a choice. it opens up the choice of variety and isnt mandatory

 

 That is complete crap. You've been around a little while so you know that there would be 0 reason to do anything aside from slot another Damage mod. Why wouldn't you? You'd be able to improve your old DPS build even further.

 

 And even if you wouldn't the community would certainly take it that way.

 

 The idea is bad for the same reason more slots isn't going to happen.

[Tyrian3k]

You can remove Serration yourself and simply not use it.  You are not forced to use it.   However, you won't cease using it.   That makes your request a contradiction.  I know you disagree, and I know others will also disagree, but none of you will make any sense when demanding the devs to do something you can do on your own.

 

Name ONE build that is better off if you do not use Serration please. Otherwise your argument is not valid.

[LazyKnight]

I feel like this is a good idea, as it could passively apply as the weapon levels. However we ALL KNOW that people will just slap moar elemental damage on the extra slot. it's a lose-lose tbh

If people want utility functions for weapons, then they are likely better off asking DE to make it part of the focus system. 

 

The utility mods in this game are all valued wrong (as in they are missing zeros). They are bad on their own merits, and only give a placebo effect at most.

[MechaKnight]

 That is complete crap. You've been around a little while so you know that there would be 0 reason to do anything aside from slot another Damage mod. Why wouldn't you? You'd be able to improve your old DPS build even further.

 

 And even if you wouldn't the community would certainly take it that way.

 

 The idea is bad for the same reason more slots isn't going to happen.

As much as DE intends good will for removing this staple mod to promote variety, more changes to mods need to take place to promote true variety. As it stands, if Serration were simply removed, we'd slot another standard elemental mod, an elemental/status event mod, or an event physical damage type mod. If more changes do not take place alongside the removal of serration, it would simply stress new players who don't have the array of mods we do due to limited availability gating.

[Liminal]

Sadly, removing serration would break more things than it would fix. Unless of course they rebalance scaling as a whole, which I'm 100% behind. Remove all damage enhancing mods that offer no absolute drawbacks (ie: drawbacks that no weapon can ignore) and make them into different mods. Reduce the abyssmal gap between Mercury and Lv50 enemies. Reduce all health, shield, armor gains. Etc. By making the numbers smaller, tweaks become easier to manage. Even implementing hard caps for some values could help.

No wonder they did that with D&D 5th edition.

[Blatantfool]

As much as DE intends good will for removing this staple mod to promote variety, more changes to mods need to take place to promote true variety. As it stands, if Serration were simply removed, we'd slot another standard elemental mod, an elemental/status event mod, or an event physical damage type mod. If more changes do not take place alongside the removal of serration, it would simply stress new players who don't have the array of mods we do due to limited availability gating.

 

 Exactly this.

 

 The problem is not entirely in the mod system, either. It's all in what we need the mods for in the first place.

 

 Nobody gives a rat's arse about what build best clears Mercury or Earth. It will always be about what build still works when you're in the thick of a long run against the toughest foes. Any build that can weather the worst the game has trivializes anything less after all.

 

 And the builds that weather the storm are all DPScannon builds. There is no option even close.

 

 Without smoothing the enemy stat scaling more there is simply no possibility the DPScannon meta will budge.

[Tyrian3k]

 That is complete crap. You've been around a little while so you know that there would be 0 reason to do anything aside from slot another Damage mod. Why wouldn't you? You'd be able to improve your old DPS build even further.

 

 And even if you wouldn't the community would certainly take it that way.

 

The reason why people will slot more elemental mods is unrelated to Serration and comes from the fact that most other mods like reload, clip size etc. are underpowered in comparison. Give players a mod that can double their clip size and they may just do it. Give them one that halves their reload and they may also use it.

 

Another problem is that stacking damage is too effective. If you for example mod radiation, you're effective against Grineer, but on top of that you can use viral which is also effective against the same faction. If viral was heavily ineffective against them, you could still use it to deal more damage, but this path gives diminishing returns.

[Dio_Brando]

You can remove Serration yourself and simply not use it.  You are not forced to use it.   However, you won't cease using it.   That makes your request a contradiction.  I know you disagree, and I know others will also disagree, but none of you will make any sense when demanding the devs to do something you can do on your own.

then why dont you try and remove it, and go to even the mid tier planets. remove split chamber and the like too. im sure your self righteousness will prevail you to victory. 

[Dio_Brando]

you might as well just remove all mods that don't say deals damage in the description then, just get barebones. it might as well be the same thing

[Archistopheles]

Based on the current game model, it would be more likely that DE would add different versions of Serration with the same name. For example: Marksman's Serration grants 200% damage on headshots, but 125% damage on everything else. Gunner's Serration adds 100% reload speed, 100% Ammo Mutation and 125% damage, or what have you. You could only ever use 1 "Serration" class mod at a time.

This would allow DE to add even more accursed rank 10 mods for us to grind, while also giving us choice and customization. Hell, make it a Primed mod and triple the resource dump.

[DarkLordX2]

Well, i will explain you your situation, let's say someone asks for the removal of Corrosive damage, because that guy wants to use Magnetic damage, but he can't because Corrosive damage is a must-have in a certain build.

 

By the way, you said that we all use these 3 mods, Heavy Caliber, Serration and Split Chamber, let me tell you that you were wrong, i don't use Heavy Caliber on my Dread, and it's working fine.

[DarkLordX2]

Based on the current game model, it would be more likely that DE would add different versions of Serration with the same name. For example: Marksman's Serration grants 200% damage on headshots, but 125% damage on everything else. Gunner's Serration adds 100% reload speed, 100% Ammo Mutation and 125% damage, or what have you. You could only ever use 1 "Serration" class mod at a time.

This would allow DE to add even more accursed rank 10 mods for us to grind, while also giving us choice and customization. Hell, make it a Primed mod and triple the resource dump.

This is a great idea, so they won't have to remove serration but make another versions for more customization.