Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread

[lonelydrone]

i agree there should be mods for silencing your pistles (rifles/shotguns is a bit extream) but how would you diferenteate between a lvl 1 silence mod from a lvl 30 one.

make "<weapon name> silencer" blueprint. And a special slot for it, like the reactor. this having side effects on the weapon, like some damage reduce, fire rate up, projectile speed down, stun chance buff, for example.

There would not be silencers for shotgun or bolt-shooting weapons (that wouldn't make any sense, if u ask me).

as for melee. I have a simple soltuion. Give frames universal stealh kill animations (like a neck braking move <all frames got hands, right?>, or an stealth weapon like kinfes in HALO REACH), so they dont have to do that huge ammount of work making a unique animation for each weapon.

Maybe 2 or 3 stealth kill animations, that randomly pop up when u stealth kill someone.

[_Chaser]

i think only singleshot secondary weapons should be silenced otherwise everyone will run around with snipertrons .

Edited February 6, 2013 by n7snk

[Juper0]

Maybe this is already mentioned, but im not about to read through 152 posts to find out. I hate jumping late to discussions.

first off, +1 to making stealth a more viable option. Im not really a stealth guy, but i got friends who are and i do enjoy changing my play style around.

second, silencers for all pistolas! some mod that makes them harder to hear and the more you have the better.

back stabing insta (or close to insta) kill with special animation would be bomb!

to keep things balanced and make sure that stealth is not superior to run and gun, I propose that the DE consider that XP/minute of play (average) is what keeps the avrious aproches balanced. if it takes me 20 minutes to get through a game in stealth and i only get half the xp a run and gun gets in 10 minutes, then steath sucks! (thats 1/4 the xp/minutes for non-math people).

as for the loki duplicate, maybe make it so that the player can duplicate an enemy? then they just get confused and go try to talk to the (not there) guy while you come up from behind? maybe this is a bad idea....

i don't think knowing the vision of the enemy is best. its a crutch and really good stealth players will not need it.

I love the idea of crawling under walkways! maybe have some kind of wall craller gear?

[Mak_Gohae]

If they want more stealth they need to turn down that rush of the enemies to the panels.

I was in a full team and as we opened a door into that L shap hall with the pillars in the middle and there was Grineer Trooper really close to us and we ALL shot him up as he ran to the panel that was basically in front of the door but the dude managed to actually hit the button as he died.

It was really funny. The dude was all like, "I'll sacrifice my life letting my brothers know, AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!"

[lonelydrone]

what they REALLY need to do.

is give enemies individuality, if ONE enemy sees you, his whole " squad gets alerted, so even if u kill who saw u fast, the rest of his teamn is running to panels to rise the alarm.

[GratuitousLurking]

Personally, I just want a way to lower the alert level somehow. It gets irksome if towards the middle of the level you botch up your 'silent running' thus far, and now EVERY enemy no matter how far into the level is now instantly running between cover or (even worse, especially in Infested areas) now running full-tilt to your position from 3 rooms away. It's annoying and doesn't seem to feel right. Perhaps a mechanic of no action from either side for a while and the player stays out of sight (like running back to an earlier room or hiding in cover for a while) they eventually reduce aggro? And as maybe another random suggestion, the aggro rating only effects humanoids? After all, the probes and MOAs only are working off programming, it's the Crewmen you have to worry about in those situations.

For what I'm thinking of, look to Metal Gear and similar games.

[Nediak]

So far i havent even tryed to do finish a mission by means of stealth even though i would very much like to and yes it would be wise for the Devs to implement some features as a silencer for lets say Latron its a good gun one head shot later and you're cleare to go.

Also in case of being detected the enemy AI should give chase but offered to posibility of breaking line of site and managing to hide should throw them of balance and start looking and not just running gunho to the spot you just hid at.

As for missions rewards well i would say that it should offer a bit more stealthing takes skill and time and boy it would take a lot of time to do a mission in stealth considering the fact that one shot can mean eithere breaking your cover or complete succses.

Silencer,hinden paths,breaking line of sight,back stab moves that can take down enemys in silence these are just a few things that could make stealth possible and fun im a fan of stealth its self and the game has the potential to be more then just well what it is right now.

Dont get me wrong i love the game its something that i would be playing for years to come im just trying to help and share my thoughts on the subject of stealth and how it could be a part of the game.

[Siilk]

Ok, I'm a bit late with that but here goes.

I think adding stealth elements of the gameplay could be nice. But it should not be overdone, warframe must stay an action game, with stealth being an optional part rather than a plane requirement.

-xp bonus for completing section undetected

Adding straightforward stealth XP bonus(same goes for stealth kill bonus) will break the flow of the game, as the most rewarding way of playing will be stealth kill everyone, which is unnatural for both stealth and action approach. Selecting a stealth approach should be completely up to players, game must not motivate that by any means.

-level restart option in solo.

just one more button in menu to restart level

Hardly that much important but as Ronyn said:

it does trivialize some of the stress of trying not to let enemies find you if you know you can just start it over right away.

- enemy view cons if you are undetected

No, no and no! It's a terrible thong for any stealth game to have. It's perfectly fine as it is, no need to simplify things line that. There's no challenge in avoiding the enemy if you perfectly aware of his abilities to detect you.

- backstab

this will be very comfortable way to kill enemies instead of strong attack which may cause detection on miss or hitting surrouninngs.

A must have, indeed. A silent takedown, maybe with an added benefit of dragging the body out of sight. Because yes, doscovered bodies of dead guards must be the reason for an alarm.

-no respawning enemies if undetected,

Not sure about that. My take here is that there must be less enemies to encounter while there is no active alert but

[Siilk]

-more predictable patchfinding

currently ai moves around randomly which creates alot of unpleasant situations due inability to predict their movement

video with example will be added later

Again a big no. It's too much of a simplification to force all the enemies to walk in the same patterns over and over, it's hardly challenging for a stealth run. Besides, there should be situation whrere being stealthy is just plain impossible. Players must be ready to face that and deal with the consequences.

-enemies should not spot you while they scratching/checking their legs

this is just annoying and illogical. they stop feeling safe enought to check their gear/whatever and it should be perfect moment to strike.

Well, I understand what you mean but I suppose it all depends on how we look at things. For me, guards not reacting on Tenno's (rather loud) footsteps or dors being opened near them is already too forgiving. So I guess form the game balance point fo view, current level of enemy awareness is satisfactory.

-vision

you can see through the walls for brief period of time

this skill can be added/replaced for ash or loki, or it could be a consumable item in shop, so all players will be able to use it.

Interesting suggestion. I think it's too gimmiky for a warframe power so it's better off being a consumable.

-"ready to fire" state cooldown

currently, you encountered enemy directly once - all other enemies even in different sections turn into in "ready to fire" state. this is alright, but there should be a cooldown for that so they will turn back into normal "safe" mode.

I think it should not be that straightforward. If you manage to deal with the enemies near you and stay out of sight for a while, all the enemies will "stand down from red alert" and will not be in a ready to fire state. But as they know Tenno is still somewhere on the ship, they will remain on "yellow alert", being a bit more cautious than before they spotted you in the first time. I'm speaking about more patrols, enemies looking around more often, that kind of things.

-bosses

if you get to a boss undetected, the boss is unprepared. IE Jakal is not yet assembled fully, other bosses aren't wearing a helmet, etc etc.

Yes, that is a good idea. A proper reward for sneaking on your enemy.

-silencer for singleshot secondary weapons

No, that will be too much. A specialised slow-firing bolt gun(think crssbow RoF) must be the only way to have a stealthy ranged weapon. It must be a deliberate choice, a sacrifice a player choses to make to be able to perform stealthy kills at range and destroy cameras.

[Dousiq]

It'd be cool if I stopped getting stealth side-missions while playing an up-in-your-face frame such as Excalibur. It really bugs me because I feel obligated to complete the missions and the only times I've managed to pull it off was by sniping at corpus cameras (annoying) and this one time I lined up a slash dash on about 13 enemies walking in a row (pure luck).

Speed kill? Easy. Melee kills? No problem. Headshots? Why do you think I carry a Lex? But when it comes to stealth I just sigh and resign myself to losing that delicious 500 affinity.

And sure, superjumping around is a good way to avoid getting seen in the grineer asteroids, but waiting around for single targets to come by for me to slash dash is inefficient and frankly boring.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a working stealth mechanic such as enemy cones of vision, being able to disable alarm panels so they can't alert the rest of the ship... But until we have such a thing please just remove the stealth side mission as it is a pain for even 'stealthy' frames.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Dousiq

[_ZAR_]

nice thought - sounds like game get harder with more player then :D

[Mak_Gohae]

If they want more stealth they need to turn down that rush of the enemies to the panels.

I was in a full team and as we opened a door into that L shap hall with the pillars in the middle and there was Grineer Trooper really close to us and we ALL shot him up as he ran to the panel that was basically in front of the door but the dude managed to actually hit the button as he died.

It was really funny. The dude was all like, "I'll sacrifice my life letting my brothers know, AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!"

Quoting myself here because i encountered a mission where this happen again but this time it was a Heavy Gunner which means he isnt really going to be stopped... too much life.

[FatRefrigerator]

I'm gonna go ahead and say TL;DR. I read the original post and a few replies and then realized I had 9 pages to go and said "yeah right".

So here's my take on how the stealth mechanics should work, I'm not sure if this idea is somewhere in the replies because, as I said, I didn't read all 150 of them.

There needs to be multiple levels of awareness and detection:

1. Clean Slate - The way it is when you enter the mission. No one has any idea that there is a threat on the ship/station. Enemies are very casual about patrolling and aren't going to be very keen to notice anything.

2. Alerted - The ship has been notified of the presence of threats. Enemies have no idea where you are at the current moment, however, they are more actively patrolling are keeping their eyes open for anything suspicious. Enemies in the alerted state will adjust their lines of sight towards a door if are within range to hear it open. (So don't just walk straight through a door as it opens, wait a moment, or follow behind an enemy before the door closes behind them.) Enemies in the alerted state will enter the "hunting" state if they recieve any sort of contact, soft or hard.

3. Hunting - Your exact location has been compromised; you either stayed in one room for too long after a firefight and reinforcements arrived or an enemy got a hard contact on you and reported it to his allies in the near vicinity. Enemies will flank you and close on your last known location.

Now using these above levels there should be multiple triggers and methods for being detected and avoiding detection:

Note: These methods of detection are all assuming that you are in the "Clean Slate" state, unless otherwise noted.

1. Audible Contact - Soft - An enemy heard you running(not sprinting) within 10m. The enemy and any others within 10m will enter an "alerted" state. They will stop their previous patrol route and begin to search the location the sound came from.

If sound suppressors are added as a weapon attachment then if an enemy within 10m hears you fire a suppressed weapon it will be considered a "soft audible contact".

Audible Contact - Hard - An enemy heard a gunshot or heard you full-out sprinting. They will enter the "hunting" state and will call for the assistance of allies in the same room. In addition, enemies in adjacent rooms will enter the "alerted" state if the contact was a gunshot.

2. Visual Contact - Soft - An enemy saw you in their peripheral vision within 10-20m or saw you cross their direct line of sight at a distance greater than 50m for a moment of less than 1.5 secs(i.e. you sprinted or dove across their LOS). They will take up the "alerted" state and patrol in the direction of the contact. They will ask for backup from any allies within 10m.

Visual Contact - Hard - An enemy saw you in their direct LOS for more than 1.5 secs(this time can be changed, just a placeholder). Enemies will enter the "hunting" state and converge on the location of the contact with the support of allies in the room.

Regarding alerting the ship to your presence:

Enemies will only attempt to set the ship to alerted after having been in the "hunting" state for over 5 seconds. If there only 1 or 2 enemies looking for you in the "hunting" state they will search for you on their own, however, if there are 3 or more, one will move to a terminal after the 5 seconds have passed. If an enemy sees a dead body they will head towards the nearest terminal but will not notify any allies in the vicinity. (This is because they assume they will make it to the terminal alive.)

There should be a set amount of time (3 seconds?) that the enemy must stay at the terminal before the alert is actually sent out. As it currently stands an enemy only has to be at a terminal for a mere instant for the alert to get out.

I know this is a long post and I'm sorry if I reiterated any ideas that have been put on the table already. I just wanted to get out a comprehensive system for managing the stealth system.

[MAL1WAN]

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/33960_578903765473069_1389682006_n.jpg

I just want more epic rewards for finishing missions undetected without unnecessary gunfire....

[_Chaser]

epic

[Tastyburger]

I would enjoy a more stealth twist to the game and it would be cool is if they added stealth takedowns

[RussetRabbit]

I like how LOKI's Invisibilty is now, you should NOT become visible when you hit someone. Instead the enemys should be alerted to you but still not know where you are and just shoot in your genrel direction.

As far as pathfinding is conserned, enemys routs should be more predictable but they should be able to randomly stop and take a brake or talk to someone so it's not really simple.

And I very mutch agree with your ideas on the level design. Creative and alternate paths through the level for stealth players (and heavy players like breaking locked doors or something) as well as more plases to hide. Put those AMAZING movement animations to even better use!

[KamaZotz]

Not sure if i could disagree more with your ash 4. Why don't you just get a detect enemy (insert the word i'm looking for here)

[_Chaser]

updated

[FatRefrigerator]

updated

Not to be braggy, but I think this goes for all people submitting ideas. anything you decide to add to the main post, would you mind putting who posted the idea originally. Just so we can put credit where credit is due for all ideas

[MikeMG]

I know pushing "Z" brings up player health bars. Anyway we can get these bars toggled on and off and show player shields as well. Would be beneficial for players trying to play that support role.

[EvaKadoya]

Tried going stealthy...... there's still a lot of issues for the later levels.......

[greenblazes]

I think the stealth system would benifit greatly from some movement improvements as well. For example:

- The ability to jump off of a wall-run in any direction instead of the default backflip/fall.

- Being able to actively direct/steer the rolling animation that happends after landing from a fall.

Both of these would allow for more fluid gameplay in both stealth and run-n-gun approaches.

[tactical_surgeon]

I know pushing "Z" brings up player health bars. Anyway we can get these bars toggled on and off and show player shields as well. Would be beneficial for players trying to play that support role.

thats already being dicussed alot in other threads as well -

- The biggest stealth problem I think, is that the AI has an overall hive mind - when you alert one, the rest are as well in sync. What needs to be done is remove that and only the alerted target is on attack, along with whomever is in his area of awarness i.e. other enemies in the room within his distance of call out.

-the other problem is the infested, once your noticed they all know and storm for you, all of them.

[tactical_surgeon]

I'm gonna go ahead and say TL;DR. I read the original post and a few replies and then realized I had 9 pages to go and said "yeah right".

So here's my take on how the stealth mechanics should work, I'm not sure if this idea is somewhere in the replies because, as I said, I didn't read all 150 of them.

There needs to be multiple levels of awareness and detection:

1. Clean Slate - The way it is when you enter the mission. No one has any idea that there is a threat on the ship/station. Enemies are very casual about patrolling and aren't going to be very keen to notice anything.

2. Alerted - The ship has been notified of the presence of threats. Enemies have no idea where you are at the current moment, however, they are more actively patrolling are keeping their eyes open for anything suspicious. Enemies in the alerted state will adjust their lines of sight towards a door if are within range to hear it open. (So don't just walk straight through a door as it opens, wait a moment, or follow behind an enemy before the door closes behind them.) Enemies in the alerted state will enter the "hunting" state if they recieve any sort of contact, soft or hard.

3. Hunting - Your exact location has been compromised; you either stayed in one room for too long after a firefight and reinforcements arrived or an enemy got a hard contact on you and reported it to his allies in the near vicinity. Enemies will flank you and close on your last known location.

Now using these above levels there should be multiple triggers and methods for being detected and avoiding detection:

Note: These methods of detection are all assuming that you are in the "Clean Slate" state, unless otherwise noted.

1. Audible Contact - Soft - An enemy heard you running(not sprinting) within 10m. The enemy and any others within 10m will enter an "alerted" state. They will stop their previous patrol route and begin to search the location the sound came from.

If sound suppressors are added as a weapon attachment then if an enemy within 10m hears you fire a suppressed weapon it will be considered a "soft audible contact".

Audible Contact - Hard - An enemy heard a gunshot or heard you full-out sprinting. They will enter the "hunting" state and will call for the assistance of allies in the same room. In addition, enemies in adjacent rooms will enter the "alerted" state if the contact was a gunshot.

2. Visual Contact - Soft - An enemy saw you in their peripheral vision within 10-20m or saw you cross their direct line of sight at a distance greater than 50m for a moment of less than 1.5 secs(i.e. you sprinted or dove across their LOS). They will take up the "alerted" state and patrol in the direction of the contact. They will ask for backup from any allies within 10m.

Visual Contact - Hard - An enemy saw you in their direct LOS for more than 1.5 secs(this time can be changed, just a placeholder). Enemies will enter the "hunting" state and converge on the location of the contact with the support of allies in the room.

Regarding alerting the ship to your presence:

Enemies will only attempt to set the ship to alerted after having been in the "hunting" state for over 5 seconds. If there only 1 or 2 enemies looking for you in the "hunting" state they will search for you on their own, however, if there are 3 or more, one will move to a terminal after the 5 seconds have passed. If an enemy sees a dead body they will head towards the nearest terminal but will not notify any allies in the vicinity. (This is because they assume they will make it to the terminal alive.)

There should be a set amount of time (3 seconds?) that the enemy must stay at the terminal before the alert is actually sent out. As it currently stands an enemy only has to be at a terminal for a mere instant for the alert to get out.

I know this is a long post and I'm sorry if I reiterated any ideas that have been put on the table already. I just wanted to get out a comprehensive system for managing the stealth system.

this right above, seriously is a good idea - although might different warframes have different stealth stats that may change the amount of "attention" they have - as in Ash for instance, would have a far greater time of visibility without being detected right away then say Rihno, right ? so maybe a stealth stat might need to be implimented as well