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Synoid Gammacor Does Not Need Changes, It Is Already Balanced


HibikiGanaha
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Syn. Gammacor it's already balanced. Why? Because I can't 1 shot enemy lvl 40++, need close range, steady shot.

 

If someone said, Syn. Gammacor OP. Please look at Vaykor Marelok, Brakk, Lex Prime, Tysis.

 

From what I see and I heard, Vaykor Marelok can 1 shot high lvl Stalker.

Edited by ZackNeutron
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a lot of 'magnum' type weapons can 1 shot a high level stalker, or a high level anything, if they land a crit

 

that's the point of a magnum type weapon tho - you get a lot of damage per shot by the cost of a slow rate of fire, low magazine size and a ton of recoil, so follow up shots are hard to land

 

that's a lot of downsides for one upside

 

what downsides does SG have? and no, a "standard" range, as far as stream weapons go, is not a downside, for what it has to offer

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a lot of 'magnum' type weapons can 1 shot a high level stalker, or a high level anything, if they land a crit

 

that's the point of a magnum type weapon tho - you get a lot of damage per shot by the cost of a slow rate of fire, low magazine size and a ton of recoil, so follow up shots are hard to land

 

that's a lot of downsides for one upside

 

what downsides does SG have? and no, a "standard" range, as far as stream weapons go, is not a downside, for what it has to offer

Yet the marelok is better than the grinlok, its longer sniper version.

 

The marelok is both a sidearm, better sniper and does huge damange with no downsides plus AoE. The marelok is OP.

The akbolto with macro can stomp everything. What are the downsides?

 

Again, this has nothing got to do with balance, just about ruining a weapon.

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Yet the marelok is better than the grinlok, its longer sniper version.

 

The marelok is both a sidearm, better sniper and does huge damange with no downsides plus AoE. The marelok is OP.

The akbolto with macro can stomp everything. What are the downsides?

 

Again, this has nothing got to do with balance, just about ruining a weapon.

 

We're not comparing Marelok to Grinlok here though, are we? Please compare Varelok to Sammacor. Both have AoE, so that argument is going straight out of the window too. Also, it's fine that its OP because this other thing is also OP is flawed argument, you should know that.

 

And Varelok indeed has some limitations. It is fairly inaccurate when fired fast. The faster you click the worse it gets... with multishot you can see clear spread pattern for example. You fire at high rate you lose accuracy, you fire slowly you lose DPS and so on. But I digress... if you feel Varelok is OP, please do start a thread about that, this is open forum. But otherwise keep the comparisons to Sammacor. Weapon tiering is an issue affecting all weapons, topic for another time perhaps.

 

The problem with Sammacor is that for a close range weapon, it doesn't suffer the same disadvantages most CQC weapons suffer in this game. 25m is still very generous range, it doesn't suffer any falloff, it doesn't suffer from ammo efficiency problems (unlike things like twin vipers for example, also somewhat CQC weapon). Also within those 25 meters the accuracy is pinpoint, while most other weapons have some kind of cone of fire . Despite lacking those limitations it does massive amount of damage.

 

Now, I don't want the damage nerfed. But I think the playstyle should be reinforced through the mechanics of the weapon some more. Risk vs reward kind of thing. As it is now... 25m isn't that much of a risk vs the significant reward.

 

So range nerf (to make it true short range nuke), ammo economy nerf (tight spot weapon/or sacrifice DPS through use of ammo mutation) or some kind of warm-up mechanic would be great ( I would suggest range warm-up as opposed to dmg warm-up). Playstyle shift adds fun to the game, stats no so much.

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Yet the marelok is better than the grinlok, its longer sniper version.

 

The marelok is both a sidearm, better sniper and does huge damange with no downsides plus AoE. The marelok is OP.

The akbolto with macro can stomp everything. What are the downsides?

 

Again, this has nothing got to do with balance, just about ruining a weapon.

 

Grinlok has higher status chance and crit damage, also crit mods are better for primary weapons than they are for secondaries, and add to that the grinlok specific crit chance mod.

 

The advantage that marelok has over grinlok lies within the mods - and not the gun itself - 2ndaries have better +damage and +multishot.

 

2ndaries will pretty much always outperform primaries, as long as that remains the case. Also, DMRs are pretty bad atm, and have very little utility. But they can still perform their function if you need a long range option and want a CQC 2ndary weapon.

 

Either way, you're comparing weapons that take different slots.

 

Akbolto's downsides are its projectile velocity and deviation. Also, akbolto is a minimum damage weapon. No crit, below average status, spare telos, which has average status.

 

I listed why marelok is what it is. It has pros and it has cons. You provided no answer to my question - what are the real downsides of the SG that justify its strenght?

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Grinlok has higher status chance and crit damage, also crit mods are better for primary weapons than they are for secondaries, and add to that the grinlok specific crit chance mod.

 

The advantage that marelok has over grinlok lies within the mods - and not the gun itself - 2ndaries have better +damage and +multishot.

 

2ndaries will pretty much always outperform primaries, as long as that remains the case. Also, DMRs are pretty bad atm, and have very little utility. But they can still perform their function if you need a long range option and want a CQC 2ndary weapon.

 

Either way, you're comparing weapons that take different slots.

 

Akbolto's downsides are its projectile velocity and deviation. Also, akbolto is a minimum damage weapon. No crit, below average status, spare telos, which has average status.

 

I listed why marelok is what it is. It has pros and it has cons. You provided no answer to my question - what are the real downsides of the SG that justify its strenght?

 

Go play vs level 80+ enemies, and come back here and talk about downsides. If you need to french kiss an enemy to kill it,  the weapon is worthless, especially in high levels.

 

You guys just want to cripple a mediocre weapon. There literraly isnt any good automatic secondary. Again, the vaylor marelok out pwerforms any single shot secondary, with huge status chance and one shot kills.

 

You have provided NO reasonable argument to why the gamamcor is OP. The ammo efficiency is like that OF kohm. YOu need to up the firerrate for this thing to be anysort of useful against high tier enemies.

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Go play vs level 80+ enemies, and come back here and talk about downsides. If you need to french kiss an enemy to kill it,  the weapon is worthless, especially in high levels.

 

You guys just want to cripple a mediocre weapon. There literraly isnt any good automatic secondary. Again, the vaylor marelok out pwerforms any single shot secondary, with huge status chance and one shot kills.

 

You have provided NO reasonable argument to why the gamamcor is OP. The ammo efficiency is like that OF kohm. YOu need to up the firerrate for this thing to be anysort of useful against high tier enemies.

 

The issue, though, is that only a tiny fraction of people using the Synoid Gammacor will ever fire one on an enemy much over level 50. I would postulate that, if we need a weapon with such outrageous stats as the SG to compete against the highest-scaled enemies, we need to look at the way enemies scale in Warframe as well as balance the SG to not blow every other weapon out of the water in terms of damage output.

 

I agree the issue is not just with the SG though. The Marelok, in my opinion, is just stupid. Rakta buff also went way too overboard. Boltor Prime is disproportionately more powerful than its vanilla counterpart in comparison to every other primed weapon. But all of this is by the by.

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Look at max damage builds for both Mk-1 Braton and Synoid. Which one is going to be more effective against a level 40 Elite Lancer? And that's just starchart levels. Yes, Mk-1 Braton can work well enough to decent levels with enough love. But with the same amount of love, the Synoid will be effective FAR longer. The only thing that can hope to compare is the FOTM weapon (Boltor/Soma Prime) or bows (hidden gems there). And even then, the Synoid's raw DPS is leagues ahead, not to mention anything about ease of use/ammo efficiency. 

 

 

The issue, though, is that only a tiny fraction of people using the Synoid Gammacor will ever fire one on an enemy much over level 50. I would postulate that, if we need a weapon with such outrageous stats as the SG to compete against the highest-scaled enemies, we need to look at the way enemies scale in Warframe as well as balance the SG to not blow every other weapon out of the water in terms of damage output.

 

I agree the issue is not just with the SG though. The Marelok, in my opinion, is just stupid. Rakta buff also went way too overboard. Boltor Prime is disproportionately more powerful than its vanilla counterpart in comparison to every other primed weapon. But all of this is by the by.

 

That is exactly my point! What is the point to all this max dps talk, when the playerbase isnt even making use of it except for a tiny fraction of people?

 

I am NOT arguing that the gammacor is more effective far longer. Im arguing false logic because many weapons fall in to the "Overkill" category at the levels the playerbase is at. So again I ask, who is this being balanced for? Because to even SEE the difference between this weapon and others is effectively above level 100 enemies. Im pretty sure the majority of people in this thread arent playing at that level. So how can you balance something you arent even making use of?

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That is exactly my point! What is the point to all this max dps talk, when the playerbase isnt even making use of it except for a tiny fraction of people?

 

I am NOT arguing that the gammacor is more effective far longer. Im arguing false logic because many weapons fall in to the "Overkill" category at the levels the playerbase is at. So again I ask, who is this being balanced for? Because to even SEE the difference between this weapon and others is effectively above level 100 enemies. Im pretty sure the majority of people in this thread arent playing at that level. So how can you balance something you arent even making use of?

You could say that players are following the path of least resistance.  Because you don't have to upgrade powercreeped weapons as much you can reach T4 viability with fewer catalyst/forma items than you would on a more modest weapon.  

 

It also begs another question: Why should our weapons be allowed to reach the "overkill" level of power in the first place?  This makes it so that you will never be challenged, ever with any game content.  If the "challenge" is an artificial one that begins past level 100 enemies then where is it really?  Toning down weapon damage to pre-Soma/explosive levels allows you to reach a level of viability in T4s when you have loaded all the mod slots on your weapon without massively overkilling everything until level 100+.

 

Removing Grineer armor scaling and revising enemies that one shot you past level 25 would also smooth out the viability curve; these are bandaids to curb the power of our equipment, which has gotten out of hand in the past year.  

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You could say that players are following the path of least resistance.  Because you don't have to upgrade powercreeped weapons as much you can reach T4 viability with fewer catalyst/forma items than you would on a more modest weapon.  

 

It also begs another question: Why should our weapons be allowed to reach the "overkill" level of power in the first place?  This makes it so that you will never be challenged, ever with any game content.  If the "challenge" is an artificial one that begins past level 100 enemies then where is it really?  Toning down weapon damage to pre-Soma/explosive levels allows you to reach a level of viability in T4s when you have loaded all the mod slots on your weapon without massively overkilling everything until level 100+.

 

Removing Grineer armor scaling and revising enemies that one shot you past level 25 would also smooth out the viability curve; these are bandaids to curb the power of our equipment, which has gotten out of hand in the past year.  

 

Thank you! Now THAT is a logical answer!

 

However, its already been stated that this problem goes beyond ONE single weapon like the gammacor. But nobody wants to talk about the deal as a whole, they want to focus on this single item here... which suggests alternate motives. More specifically, selfish motives. 

 

So lets talk about the whole "Overkill" level of power. Some people can make use of powerful weapons in the environment that they are suited for. I understand the concept of creating a even playing field within reason among the weapons, but this whole game is designed around leveling and customization like a RPG. For the people that are capable of utilizing something like the gammacor to its fullest capability at 100+ waves in a defense or something, is it fair to them for these changes to affect something they clearly have the skills to use?

 

Would it not be fairer to adjust the mastery rank requirement for weapons like that instead? And even make it more difficult to obtain to begin with?

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Would it not be fairer to adjust the mastery rank requirement for weapons like that instead? And even make it more difficult to obtain to begin with?

I don't think that weapons that take more time to acquire should be significantly stronger than weapons that are easy to obtain.  Maybe they should be more exotic, have alternative mechanics, or be difficult-but-rewarding to use, but it shouldn't be "I put in the time and effort so now I deserve to trivialize everything."

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When the Synoid has a 55% higher sustained DPS than the frickin Boltor Prime, that's a fair comparison that shows a glaring issue. And that's with max fire rate/Heavy Cal on the Boltor Prime.

 

And for the people saying range is a balancing mechanic, where's the love for the Synapse? The Spectra? The Fluc Rifle? The Phage/Amprex (both are in a good place though). If the Synoid had 15 meters of range, that would be balanced. Top of it's class and 2nd compared to all beam weapons is NOT balanced.

Boltor Prime is a bad example to compare against the Synoid Gammacor since you can't account for the ragdoll damage.  I can't find anything on how much damage ragdolled bodies inflict.  A better comparison would be the Soma Prime.

 

Here's a pretty typical soma p build - http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Soma_prime/t_30_22000000_131-2-5-132-1-5-133-6-5-134-7-5-137-0-10-140-4-5-141-3-5-159-5-5_137-7-132-8-131-9-141-11-140-9-159-9-133-11-134-11/en/2-0-65

 

If you look only at the numbers, soma prime is less than half as good.  If you consider how the soma prime has way more uptime compared to the synoid, even ignoring the punchthrough from shred, it outperforms the synoid for holding objectives on large tiles.

 

The synapse, spectra, and flux rifle aren't top tier.  Glaxion, phage, quanta, and amprex are all top tier with the Synoid.  All beam weapons are bad at defending on large tiles, with the exception of the quanta.

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Meanwhile, nobody complains about the vaylor marelok, telos akbolto, boltor prime,

 

This is just about ruining a weapon, nothing about weapon balance.

Each of those have roughly HALF the DPS, the first two require macros for said DPS, and the latter requires a max Heavy Cal and about 3 seconds of firing time. This isn't about ruining a weapon, it's about taming an outlier.

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Yet the marelok is better than the grinlok, its longer sniper version.

 

The marelok is both a sidearm, better sniper and does huge damange with no downsides plus AoE. The marelok is OP.

The akbolto with macro can stomp everything. What are the downsides?

 

Again, this has nothing got to do with balance, just about ruining a weapon.

Downsides? You ever tried a 16 rps Telos with a macro? It's just spray and pray. The Marelok at least has spread at higher ranges. In addition, a macroed Akbolto is gonna be out of ammo fairly quickly. The Synoid will still be shooting looooong after.

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Boltor Prime is a bad example to compare against the Synoid Gammacor since you can't account for the ragdoll damage.  I can't find anything on how much damage ragdolled bodies inflict.  A better comparison would be the Soma Prime.

 

Here's a pretty typical soma p build - http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Soma_prime/t_30_22000000_131-2-5-132-1-5-133-6-5-134-7-5-137-0-10-140-4-5-141-3-5-159-5-5_137-7-132-8-131-9-141-11-140-9-159-9-133-11-134-11/en/2-0-65

 

If you look only at the numbers, soma prime is less than half as good.  If you consider how the soma prime has way more uptime compared to the synoid, even ignoring the punchthrough from shred, it outperforms the synoid for holding objectives on large tiles.

 

The synapse, spectra, and flux rifle aren't top tier.  Glaxion, phage, quanta, and amprex are all top tier with the Synoid.  All beam weapons are bad at defending on large tiles, with the exception of the quanta.

Cool, 10 seconds of firing time. The Synoid has 15 seconds of firing time with a typical build, 11.6 seconds with an absolute max damage build. And FYI, the ragdoll damage is the damage from the killing shot...a bit over 1k on a good Boltor Prime build. All those weapons you listed are good, but nowhere near Synoid's level. Glaxion has ammo issues, Phage has focus time, Quanta has mediocre DPS with main fire, biggest draw is alt fire spam, Amprex admittedly can CC like a monster but consumes ammo crazy fast AND has a shorter range than the Synoid. None of these weapons, with the exception of a max Primed Point Blank Phage can break half the sustained DPS of the Synoid, not to mention burst. The Synoid also has the greatest time spent firing compared to each of these weapons, as well as a disproportionately large reserve ammo for its weapon type. I know that paper DPS=/=game DPS, but when most encounters take place within 25 meters, and most team compositions have ways to get close without taking damage (or outright shutdown enemies), the Synoid dominates all competition without breaking a sweat. The numbers are obscenely inflated compared to every other weapon in the game, ignoring its ease of use, ammo efficiency, innate Entropy effect...it's blatantly OP, and I'm starting to think people who defend it and want absolutely no nerfs on it are just scared of having their laser-pointer-of-God taken away.

 

Reduce range to 15-18 meters? That's balanced. Increase ammo consumption per damage? That's balance. Decrease max reserve ammo/clip size? That's balanced.

 

Do nothing? That's not healthy for game balance in the long term when a single weapon defeats EVERY other weapon in the game.  

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Downsides? You ever tried a 16 rps Telos with a macro? It's just spray and pray. The Marelok at least has spread at higher ranges. In addition, a macroed Akbolto is gonna be out of ammo fairly quickly. The Synoid will still be shooting looooong after.

You balance experts should go play with level 80+ enemies and come back here tell me more about balance.

Furthermore, the only half decent weapon at those ranges are bows.

 

Maybe we should nerf paris prime and dread now too? They have also too many "Positives" and not many downsides.

 

 

I am really glad DE never reads these forums.

 

One thing you never bother to answer, what are you balancing the sgammacor to? Its peers?

Meanwhile, there are things like the amprex...

Edited by HandsomeSorcerer
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You balance experts should go play with level 80+ enemies and come back here tell me more about balance.

Furthermore, the only half decent weapon at those ranges are bows.

 

Maybe we should nerf paris prime and dread now too? They have also too many "Positives" and not many downsides.

 

 

I am really glad DE never reads these forums.

 

One thing you never bother to answer, what are you balancing the sgammacor to? Its peers?

Meanwhile, there are things like the amprex...

I went to level 100 tower mobs helping a friend get Scindo Prime parts. Rocked a Latron Prime and Akmagnus, both of which are AMAZING at long distances, which we rarely encountered. We only had 3 downs the entire time with a 3 man squad. Level 100 enemies are an outlier in game balance, and the Synoid is NOT the only weapon that does well against them; it does overwhelmingly well against everything though compared to every other weapon. And on bows, they have limited ammo, draw time, travel time, crit dependency (useless against Nullifiers). Only half decent weapons at that range? It's a shame weapons like the Burston/Latron Prime/snipers/Opticor/Latron Wraith/Soma series have almost perfect accuracy up to 50+ meters. Hell, Braton Prime can nail headshots at that range.

 

I am balancing the Synoid against every other weapon in the game. Look at the math I did further up this topic, proving the gap between between the Synoid and the runner up, Boltor Prime, is much too large to be healthy. An increase of 55% sustained damage, being able to fire for 11.6 seconds as compared to 3.3, and having perfect accuracy is way too OP. 

 

You really want to bring up the Amprex? The thing has 20 rps base. Without a mutator, ammo is just a dream with that gun (I 7 formaed mine, I know). Even then, it's possible to run out if you fire too much. The chaining is nice, but it needs it with 18 meters range...7 less than the Synoid. Did I mention the ammo consumption per damage compared to the Synoid?

 

The fact is, the Synoid numbers would be justified...if it had a base range of 15 meters at max, or massively increased ammo drain. As is, it has WAY too many advantages, almost no drawbacks, and you'll be able to shoot practically forever. It is blatantly OP compared to every weapon in the game, no exceptions.

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You balance experts should go play with level 80+ enemies and come back here tell me more about balance.

Furthermore, the only half decent weapon at those ranges are bows.

 

Maybe we should nerf paris prime and dread now too? They have also too many "Positives" and not many downsides.

 

 

I am really glad DE never reads these forums.

 

One thing you never bother to answer, what are you balancing the sgammacor to? Its peers?

Meanwhile, there are things like the amprex...

 

Considering that the Synoid Gammacor has literally twice the DPS of the Boltor Prime (assuming you don't like ammo issues), It's safe to say that this isn't about ruining a weapon out of malice. What kind of idiot would think that the Warframe community would want to harm the game they love?

 

This isn't just an issue of the number of upsides and downsides, this is an issue of how much one weapon absolutely towers over everything else in terms of killing power. The other top tier secondaries come close to the Synoid (so close, yet so far, Brakk), but never surpass it, and the only weapon in the game capable of surpassing it is the Kohm. The only secondary weapon I feel you could argue is on par is the Rakta Ballisica, which has solid DPS and range.

 

What do you sacrifice for having literally twice the DPS of the best rifle in the game? A minor range loss? 25m is hardly "french kissing" and the Synoid's DPS is already so apocalyptic that a range extension mod won't hurt it too much.

 

You act like a 25m range cap with no range mods actually justifies having twice the killing power of the best rifle in the game. It doesn't.

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Thank you! Now THAT is a logical answer!

 

However, its already been stated that this problem goes beyond ONE single weapon like the gammacor. But nobody wants to talk about the deal as a whole, they want to focus on this single item here... which suggests alternate motives. More specifically, selfish motives. 

 

So lets talk about the whole "Overkill" level of power. Some people can make use of powerful weapons in the environment that they are suited for. I understand the concept of creating a even playing field within reason among the weapons, but this whole game is designed around leveling and customization like a RPG. For the people that are capable of utilizing something like the gammacor to its fullest capability at 100+ waves in a defense or something, is it fair to them for these changes to affect something they clearly have the skills to use?

 

Would it not be fairer to adjust the mastery rank requirement for weapons like that instead? And even make it more difficult to obtain to begin with?

Yes, armor is a big problem for game balance. The problem with the Synoid in particular is that it's burst/sustained DPs not only shadow the entire beam class, but every weapon in the game. Armor is a problem that needs to be looked at for long term game balance, but the Synoid is something that can be fixed right now. Very tired of seeing 1-2 members in each pub squad using a Synoid. Customization is awesome, but when the Synoid is so strong, the variety of weapons in the game starts to shrink as practically everyone starts to use the strongest weapon (I.E. Synoid), which is also the easiest to use weapon.

 

Shamelessly self-promoting, but I made a post higher up this thread detailing number differences between Boltor Prime (one of the strongest weapons in the game) and the Synoid, as well as some mention of the in game effects of their respective builds. The Synoid outclasses the Boltor Prime 10:1.

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Considering that the Synoid Gammacor has literally twice the DPS of the Boltor Prime (assuming you don't like ammo issues), It's safe to say that this isn't about ruining a weapon out of malice. What kind of idiot would think that the Warframe community would want to harm the game they love?

 

This isn't just an issue of the number of upsides and downsides, this is an issue of how much one weapon absolutely towers over everything else in terms of killing power. The other top tier secondaries come close to the Synoid (so close, yet so far, Brakk), but never surpass it, and the only weapon in the game capable of surpassing it is the Kohm. The only secondary weapon I feel you could argue is on par is the Rakta Ballisica, which has solid DPS and range.

 

What do you sacrifice for having literally twice the DPS of the best rifle in the game? A minor range loss? 25m is hardly "french kissing" and the Synoid's DPS is already so apocalyptic that a range extension mod won't hurt it too much.

 

You act like a 25m range cap with no range mods actually justifies having twice the killing power of the best rifle in the game. It doesn't.

Thank you! A person with sense in this thread. Brakk has abysmal range, Rakta has weird mechanics, yet both can't match the DPs/ease of use/ammo efficiency of the Synoid. Too many people like having a nuke focused into a laser pointer that trivializes the game that can shoot practically forever. There is no variety at high levels anymore; it's Synoid or GTFO for too many groups that I've been invited to.

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The fact is, the Synoid numbers would be justified...if it had a base range of 15 meters at max, or massively increased ammo drain. As is, it has WAY too many advantages, almost no drawbacks, and you'll be able to shoot practically forever. It is blatantly OP compared to every weapon in the game, no exceptions.

 

So much this.

 

I look forward to the day this thing finally gets a firm reshaping with the nerf hammer.

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Go play vs level 80+ enemies, and come back here and talk about downsides. If you need to french kiss an enemy to kill it,  the weapon is worthless, especially in high levels.

 

You guys just want to cripple a mediocre weapon. There literraly isnt any good automatic secondary. Again, the vaylor marelok out pwerforms any single shot secondary, with huge status chance and one shot kills.

 

You have provided NO reasonable argument to why the gamamcor is OP. The ammo efficiency is like that OF kohm. YOu need to up the firerrate for this thing to be anysort of useful against high tier enemies.

The fact you called the Synoid "mediocre" pretty much just invalidated every point you could hope to attempt to make. Go play around in WF builder to see how this weapon can hit over 55k sustained DPS and over 65k burst DPS against an enemy type it isn't even good against innately (alloy), while maintaining 11.6 seconds of sustained fire per clip, with another 5 clips in reserve. If this weapon is mediocre, weapons like the Flux Rifle, Synapse, Amprex must be garbage tier (although Flux is rather close to garbage tier after the nerf).  Please stop trying to defend a weapon that outclasses literally every other weapon in the game, with one of the best ammo efficiency to boot.

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