This Was Very Poorly Designed Around Players With Arsenal Full Of Mods And Proves That Raids Consisting Of Lvl80 Enemies Isnt A Good Idea.

[Kasarian]

Warframe - the space ninja game. Jump, slide and run around, block bullets, shoot and slice enemies

 

This is how it's "advertised". Then you see players coptering like mad (some people defending those clunky animations until death on forum), most people running with soma/boltor (i've grown to hate both these weapons), "loki master race" (but then when said theyre op, they claim theyre very much in danger as every teammate (confused about that)), melee being "too easy"  early-mid game then being obsolete late game, most weapons being just mastery fodder because in order for it to shine it needs potato+2-3 formas to be good compared to others, people spamming skills and on the other hand complaining about it and the list of what is wrong with WF goes on bottom line being:

Warframe is not perfect because both community and Devs aren't the best either...

[SquirmyBurrito]

But stay, soon we will celebrate 100th missed point reply.

 

To be fair, prior to the bolded edit, your point was incredibly hard to figure out. And on the bolded text

 

"Example put below illustrates problem which haunts the warframe, complete reliance on exploits which render enemies permamently harmless, whether you use limbo, valkyr, loki, vauban you still survive by making enemy incapable of damaging you.

Whether or not you believe its skill or not i dont care, i care that it takes away choice, since any frame without mentioned abilities becomes useless and even those possesing them are relegated to being "jamming device" sitting at middle of map and mindlessly pressing 1 button over and over.

Is this really the best that we can expect from de in terms of endgame content, raising lvl till we need to rely on exploits to not get hit??"

 

While the underlined is mostly true (there is a video of an Oberon solo'ing the TA), it isn't an exploit. The game is working as intended. Name all the frames that can't be used for this TA. Why are you assuming this TA (which was made just for fun) is indicative of what Endgame content will be? And as previously stated, using your abilities as they were intended is not an exploit.

 

like he said you all missed the point completely, difficulty was never listed as the problem, the problem is just what you said funneling the choice of a player, the dev's continually talk about a sandbox element where you play as you want etc and not forcing play styles or game progression onto the player, but with raids you must use X frame or use X frame with Y set up for it to work or you fail, or you must use X gun with Y build.

 

DE stopped caring about restricting playstyles back when they removed ability mod cards. I don't remember Warframe ever being touted as a game where progression is not needed. And how would you know what sort of requirements there are going to be for Raids? I watched the recent devstream, they didn't say anything (or show anything) that seemed to indicate that "X frame/gun with Y set up/build" would be necessary. As DE said, this Tactical Alert has nothing to do with raids.

 

This is how it's "advertised". Then you see players coptering like mad (some people defending those clunky animations until death on forum), most people running with soma/boltor (i've grown to hate both these weapons), "loki master race" (but then when said theyre op, they claim theyre very much in danger as every teammate (confused about that)), melee being "too easy"  early-mid game then being obsolete late game, most weapons being just mastery fodder because in order for it to shine it needs potato+2-3 formas to be good compared to others, people spamming skills and on the other hand complaining about it and the list of what is wrong with WF goes on bottom line being:

Warframe is not perfect because both community and Devs aren't the best either...

 

 

Coptering is a feature, get used to it. I rarely see the Boltor Prime or the Soma (prime). In fact, I've only seen the Soma Prime ONCE in game. Loki Master Race does not mean Loki is overpowered, and Loki IS in danger. Being invisible =/= being invincible. Most melee weapons are terrible, that's nothing new. Mastery Fodder as a concept is flawed, it relies upon the assumption that the perception being used is that of a late-game player who has long since surpassed the level ranges of the 'mastery fodder' that is thrust before them. A new player does not view the new (but not top-tier) weapons as mastery fodder, for them that weapon is another step on the ladder to top-tier gear. People spamming skills isn't a problem. People complaining about it are the problem. 

 

The Devs are great, the community has grown toxic. That's what you expect to see when a game's playerbase grows to this size. With the good, comes a healthy dose of bad.

Edited March 2, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito

[Otaiken]

This is how it's "advertised". Then you see players coptering like mad (some people defending those clunky animations until death on forum), most people running with soma/boltor (i've grown to hate both these weapons), "loki master race" (but then when said theyre op, they claim theyre very much in danger as every teammate (confused about that)), melee being "too easy"  early-mid game then being obsolete late game, most weapons being just mastery fodder because in order for it to shine it needs potato+2-3 formas to be good compared to others, people spamming skills and on the other hand complaining about it and the list of what is wrong with WF goes on bottom line being:

Warframe is not perfect because both community and Devs aren't the best either...

 

Yeah that's how it's advertised.

 

The problem is that one would expect that if you enjoy to run and gun you should be able to do that as you climb in levels. You just need to run faster, gun better (with better accuracy and reaction time). But instead of that kind of progression you go from running and gunning to a cover shooter. And that just makes no sense! Especially since this game does have running and gunning mechanics while suspiciously lacking cover shooting mechanics.

 

So when said player that enjoys running and gunning feels a little confused it's pretty understandable. At which point he goes to forums and asks "Hey guyzz, what is going on? I was like, running and gunning and got really good at it too and then I just kinda... couldn't anymore." Where a bunch of guys with fancy avatars will tell him that he needs to "Git gud. Totes ez, running and gunning all day brah." or that he needs to get a specific mod/frame/combo or get someone to neuter the enemies for him.

 

 

Newer player: "So... I like to melee and jump around, but I just kinda instantly die and blocking does nothing at this level. What do I do?"

 

Motherly Nova: "Oh, no problem all of the enemies are slowed to a crawl now. Go nuts scamp!"

 

Newer player: "So do I like... wal up to them and stab them?"

 

Motherly Nova: "Yep."

 

Newer player: "And they won't fight back or anything?"

 

Motherly Nova: "Not really, no. Though you might need to stab them quite a few times, they got pretty tanky."

 

Newer player: "Ummm... it's fine guys. I'm just gonna go over there... do my taxes or something."

[Haukai]

Except between a level 30 and 80 enemy, the scaling is much less vertical than it is between a level 80 and 130 enemy. Clearly you don't know how scaling works in WarGUNS. You should revise your copy mate. Sure level 80 enemies do less damage than level 130 ones. They still do a crapton of damage. So they won't one shot you. They will need what? 3 or 4 shots? Yay, HUGE difference, we're saved! People surely won't rely on "neutering" builds to completely mitigate any offensive capabilities the enemy has.

 

And using extremes only like you just did ("What do you want then ? Level 20s enemies everywhere?") is plain moronic. Especially when you try to defend a point of view. It just shows you're too "rigid" or voluntarily refuse to discuss, or even aknowledge that opinions that differ from yours have any value, or that you didn't read the posts, or understand them. Also you put words in other people's "mouths" (who the Hek talked about level 20 enemies? Only you mate. Not the best way to promote your argumentation). People ask for challenge, not stupidely high numbers and unfair mechanics. Make them punishing if we fail, that'd be good, but not arbitrarily take away gameplay options from our hands and then dare usher the word "challenge" to justify poor judgment.^^'

 

 

Basically this.

You're right about it, I was being obnoxious and all, t'was 11am when I wrote this and I still hadn't sleep, but it doesn't change the fact that you missed the main point of my first post. Most people on here are going on about how hard the Alert is, how unfair enemies are and so on, how you absolutely need 4 Corrosive Projections, 1 Loki, 1 Nova etc..

While the main point of my first post was, this is completely wrong, this is untrue, and only people that cannot think outside of the box for themselves will believe everything OP said was true. Instead of re writing it, I'll just quote myself for clarity, this alert is SOLOABLE WITH ALL THE FOLLOWING FRAMES***** :

 

- Ash (Invis build)

- Banshee (Max range, Max efficiency low duration Sonic Boom/Silence/Sound Quake build)

- Ember (Accelerant + Fire Blast with Augment build)

- Excal (Rad Blind + Rad Jav build)

- Limbo (Rift Walk + Rift Surge build)

- Loki (Invis + Disarm + Switch teleport build)

- Mirage (Disco ball stun build + HoM and Eclipse as safety/damage boost)

- Valkyr (Hysteria + Rip Line build)

- Vauban (Bastille the whole fawking map build)

***** Which means that if it is soloable, OP stating you need a precise setup consisting of this and that is just plain wrong.

 

Make them punishing if we fail, that'd be good, but not arbitrarily take away gameplay options from our hands and then dare usher the word "challenge" to justify poor judgment.^^'

Well that's what I've been going on about for a while now, you need to think outside the box, if you do so, you'll realise that with the right combos, many frames you never thought of can carry you further than you'd have thought.

I did a T4 Defense last week, got up to wave 90, and guess which useless frame we had in our squad ? Ember.

The week before that, I had done another T4 Def up to wave 100 this time, with another useless frame : Volt.

This week, and for now (before exploiters find their way on top of the Survival leaderboards again (9hours solo run, stuff like that)), our setup that replaces Loki with Volt is on top of the leaderboards with 2h40mins (Weapons we used ? Noobs one of course, Kohm, Torid, Dread, Rakta Ballistica, and no Gammacor/Boltor P/Soma P).

A lot of Warframes are being underestimated, same with weapons. People believe that Rhino P + Boltor P = End Game ? Never used either there, most likely never will.

[sanj66]

To be fair, prior to the bolded edit, your point was incredibly hard to figure out. And on the bolded text

 

"Example put below illustrates problem which haunts the warframe, complete reliance on exploits which render enemies permamently harmless, whether you use limbo, valkyr, loki, vauban you still survive by making enemy incapable of damaging you.

Whether or not you believe its skill or not i dont care, i care that it takes away choice, since any frame without mentioned abilities becomes useless and even those possesing them are relegated to being "jamming device" sitting at middle of map and mindlessly pressing 1 button over and over.

Is this really the best that we can expect from de in terms of endgame content, raising lvl till we need to rely on exploits to not get hit??"

 

While the underlined is mostly true (there is a video of an Oberon solo'ing the TA), it isn't an exploit. The game is working as intended. Name all the frames that can't be used for this TA. Why are you assuming this TA (which was made just for fun) is indicative of what Endgame content will be? And as previously stated, using your abilities as they were intended is not an exploit.

 

 

DE stopped caring about restricting playstyles back when they removed ability mod cards. I don't remember Warframe ever being touted as a game where progression is not needed. And how would you know what sort of requirements there are going to be for Raids? I watched the recent devstream, they didn't say anything (or show anything) that seemed to indicate that "X frame/gun with Y set up/build" would be necessary. As DE said, this Tactical Alert has nothing to do with raids.

 

 

 

Coptering is a feature, get used to it. I rarely see the Boltor Prime or the Soma (prime). In fact, I've only seen the Soma Prime ONCE in game. Loki Master Race does not mean Loki is overpowered, and Loki IS in danger. Being invisible =/= being invincible. Most melee weapons are terrible, that's nothing new. Mastery Fodder as a concept is flawed, it relies upon the assumption that the perception being used is that of a late-game player who has long since surpassed the level ranges of the 'mastery fodder' that is thrust before them. A new player does not view the new (but not top-tier) weapons as mastery fodder, for them that weapon is another step on the ladder to top-tier gear. People spamming skills isn't a problem. People complaining about it are the problem. 

 

The Devs are great, the community has grown toxic. That's what you expect to see when a game's playerbase grows to this size. With the good, comes a healthy dose of bad.

thats false actually, since damage doesnt scale and cc infinitely scales your choice at going to higher levels will be restricted to cc skills or frames that specialize more at ccing mobs, the skill is there but it is still useless so what is the point?. the alert is not linked yes we know but the relativity of this issue is the point. steve said on numerous streams warframe has the sandbox element where it does not funnel your progression in a specific way, that is false as well due to the imbalance of both frames and weapons, there is not a system where on say tier 7 there is a bow, shotgun, ar, launcher etc that you can freely choose from per tier, your choice is actually funneled. the devs were great but over the past year they have shown to not really give a crap, everyone wanted focus, what did they give? dark sectors and archwing, complete failures, it took 2 years + to implement or rather yet to be implemented basic pvp system, stream after stream they laugh off serious topics raised by players, focus, balance, look at how long it took for them to address the rakta, and look at how many times they laughed at it on stream saying they intentionally made it crappy. raids as endgame? when people farm raids for 1-2 weeks what will the have then? raids being billed as endgame is also a problem, and we saw as scott himself said 2/3 of what a raid is so we can speculate a bit on how it will pan out. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by sanj66

[JakeRobber]

People complaining about the TA: this is why we can't have nice things.  It's not even what the OP really has a problem with, anyway.

 

OP:  Let's see what raids are really like from start to end.  So far, we don't even know what the whole think even looks like, let alone what it's like to experience it.  

 

For one, I really don't think any frames will really be required, considering we can have 8 man squads.  Some will be better than others, sure, but that's an issue with balance, not raids.

 

The only thing that's actually going to make a difference is players providing feedback of the content after we have experienced it.  There are legitimate concerns here, but freaking out about it now is not fair to DE or yourself.

[Davoodoo]

To be fair, prior to the bolded edit, your point was incredibly hard to figure out. And on the bolded text

 

"Example put below illustrates problem which haunts the warframe, complete reliance on exploits which render enemies permamently harmless, whether you use limbo, valkyr, loki, vauban you still survive by making enemy incapable of damaging you.

Whether or not you believe its skill or not i dont care, i care that it takes away choice, since any frame without mentioned abilities becomes useless and even those possesing them are relegated to being "jamming device" sitting at middle of map and mindlessly pressing 1 button over and over.

Is this really the best that we can expect from de in terms of endgame content, raising lvl till we need to rely on exploits to not get hit??"

 

While the underlined is mostly true (there is a video of an Oberon solo'ing the TA), it isn't an exploit. The game is working as intended. Name all the frames that can't be used for this TA. Why are you assuming this TA (which was made just for fun) is indicative of what Endgame content will be? And as previously stated, using your abilities as they were intended is not an exploit.

Yes i could word it better, fault lies with me, at the same time this thread was mostly pointed at players who already know the state of balance and most of them understood what this is about.

 

Even oberon got radiation proc, it works like chaos at this point, given enough energy sure he can do it.

What you cant solo with??

1)ember, even if accelerant provides some cc amount of energy you would need to use to keep it up is enourmous and would deplete your restores, basically accelerant is 1 of those cc which are balanced, saves live but its short enough that it cant be spammed endlessly, if you somehow manage to complete it though will it be worth burning 200-300 restores just to prove a point that 1 in 100k can do it??

2)frost, cc consists of slows, short ranged ones so he cant exactly use this to survive, snow globe also doesnt have infinite hp(thank god for that) 

3)volt, electric shield is too small to cover large area, no cc at all, speed doesnt make avoiding bullets easier or even possible.

4)saryn, only cc being aftershock from miasma amount of energy it would use would be even greater than with ember.

5)mesa, shooting gallery simply wouldnt disarm enemies fast enough, meaning that chance of success is in great deal matter of luck.

6)mag, only cc being pull but it wont help much while capping points and probably wont affect enough and by enough i mean all enemies.

7)trinity, no cc, its been relegated to being battery charger.

8)nova, slow wont help against stray shots, might with huge deal of luck complete it but wouldnt count on it

9)zephyr, inability to spam cc and low range on it

10)rhino, inability to spam cc

 

10 out of 22 frames is rendered incapable of doing it, every frame that does it with exception of valkyr, limbo and vauban rely on 1 skill which means that out of 88 skills only 17 are being used in that kind of lvl. We will probably be able to bring these frames to raids, but they wont be useful and are gonna be carried by cc spammers.

 

Why im assuming it will look like that?? 71 skills stopped scaling at around 30lvl(if they even had a point before that), shield and hp stopped scaling around 30lvl.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Thaumatos]

Haven't any of you learned from the previous tactical alert?

 

Difficulty in Warframe is, "What frame did you bring, bro?"  That's it.  DE has got to get a handle on the outlandish damage levels and the amount of 'p42w' in their game.

 

To hell with all the people crying over losing their big numbers, it's sucking the life right out of Warframe.

[Liminal]

To be honest, it's the player bases' fault for coming up with exploits and power spamming to win the game. It's built into our mentality to spam that Loki Radial Disarm, Trinity Energy Vampire, et cetera. It's not the developers' fault, as they never had it in mind.

No it's not. If something's wrong with your game, it's your fault. You have the tools to fix it.

 

If the devs don't want people doing something they should try to discourage it or make it less useful, not make tactical alerts that (almost) require that kind of ability abuse.

It's the same with running the same mission over and over: DE said they don't want players doing that, and then they introduced Ducat farming on top of Prime hunting. That's a huge contradiction there and only the devs are to blame.

[Davoodoo]

No it's not. If something's wrong with your game, it's your fault. You have the tools to fix it.

 

If the devs don't want people doing something they should try to discourage it or make it less useful, not make tactical alerts that (almost) require that kind of ability abuse.

It's the same with running the same mission over and over: DE said they don't want players doing that, and then they introduced Ducat farming on top of Prime hunting. That's a huge contradiction there and only the devs are to blame.

Ill provide some examples.

 

When ppl were using pretty much exclusively magic due to how easy and overpowered it was from software actually went and nerfed magic, most popular cheesy santier spear got nerfhammer treatment.

 

Overkill understood that ppl will run same heist over and over so they reduced exp it given for every consecutive run, later devs came out and admit that they overblown that problem and lessened penatly for that practice.

 

Yes devs have ability to fix their game, players have ability to provide feedback.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Liminal]

Ill provide some examples.

 

When ppl were using pretty much exclusively magic due to how easy and overpowered it was from software actually went and nerfed magic, most popular cheesy santier spear got nerfhammer treatment.

 

Overkill understood that ppl will run same heist over and over so they reduced exp it given for every consecutive run, later devs came out and admit that they overblown that problem and lessened penatly for that practice.

 

Yes devs have ability to fix their game, players have ability to provide feedback.

Yet with WF, in the streams they say "We don't want players spamming the same power over and over" or "We don't like it when players rush, ignoring all enemies and just going straight for the objective" and not only do nothing to discourage that, but they introduce new stuff that exacerbates the problem.

[RealPandemonium]

yeah, it looks like a warmup for the coming raids..

Lolno.  This was a tongue-in-cheek sample of what people consider "endgame."  The only reason it was made in the first place is because there was bug that caused part two of the alert to spawn level 280 enemies and some players reported that they wanted another stab at something like that.  Let it stand as an example of how broken Grineer armor scaling is and how broken enemy scaling is in general.  The ability to turn off gameplay only muddles the issue.  

 

interception is not about killing the mobs, you just have to hold them back from capturing points.

 

go use hydrioid with a max range puddle then proceed to afk for the next 20 mins as the mission compleats itself

Undertow is not affected by range mods.

[(XBOX)Clayton Peace]

Good lord the amount of salt in this thread.

Edited March 2, 2015 by (XB1)Clayton Peace

[Marthrym]

You're right about it, I was being obnoxious and all, t'was 11am when I wrote this and I still hadn't sleep, but it doesn't change the fact that you missed the main point of my first post. Most people on here are going on about how hard the Alert is, how unfair enemies are and so on, how you absolutely need 4 Corrosive Projections, 1 Loki, 1 Nova etc..

 

I didn't miss it. I just didn't bother stating the obvious. Especially after it had already been done. That would be a waste of time and effort. And I don't believe I said anything that could make anyone think I disagreed with it. Most of the complaints I see are about how RESTRICTIVE this alert is, and not much else. It takes away so much of the "freedom" we're supposed to have it's downright sad and ridiculous. At the same time.

 

 

While the main point of my first post was, this is completely wrong, this is untrue, and only people that cannot think outside of the box for themselves will believe everything OP said was true. Instead of re writing it, I'll just quote myself for clarity, this alert is SOLOABLE WITH ALL THE FOLLOWING FRAMES***** :

 

- Ash (Invis build)

- Banshee (Max range, Max efficiency low duration Sonic Boom/Silence/Sound Quake build)

- Ember (Accelerant + Fire Blast with Augment build)

- Excal (Rad Blind + Rad Jav build)

- Limbo (Rift Walk + Rift Surge build)

- Loki (Invis + Disarm + Switch teleport build)

- Mirage (Disco ball stun build + HoM and Eclipse as safety/damage boost)

- Valkyr (Hysteria + Rip Line build)

- Vauban (Bastille the whole fawking map build)

 

***** Which means that if it is soloable, OP stating you need a precise setup consisting of this and that is just plain wrong.

 

And you missed the obvious problem here. Not EVERY frame can solo this. ONLY those with the appropriate "f!ck you scaling" properties (I do have doubts about Ember and Mirage soloing this to be honest). And of course let's not even begin with how useless frames with damage based kits are... Ash and his Finisher damage being the exception to the rule (bypassing both armor types used by basically every enemy in the game that scales endlessly does help, and it does a ton of damage per target). Of course since this is supposed to be "challenging" and test our teamwork and coordination, maybe it shouldn't be soloable? Very blurry line here for me.

 

So in the end, it's LESS than HALF the current "roster" that is "viable" (though that is subjective, like everything, and might concern more solo than teams). What does that tell you?

 

You say that a precise setup isn't required. YET everything you mentioned... is a PRECISE setup. A PRECISE frame. Using a PRECISE build. Using only PRECISE abilities. Said abilities being used in a PRECISE way. Whether you do it alone or not is irrelevant. That's a lot of "precision" for such "freedom" in gameplay, isn't it?

 

 

You're right about it, I was being obnoxious and all, t'was 11am when I wrote this and I still hadn't sleep, but it doesn't change the fact that you missed the main point of my first post. Most people on here are going on about how hard the Alert is, how unfair enemies are and so on, how you absolutely need 4 Corrosive Projections, 1 Loki, 1 Nova etc..

While the main point of my first post was, this is completely wrong, this is untrue, and only people that cannot think outside of the box for themselves will believe everything OP said was true. Instead of re writing it, I'll just quote myself for clarity, this alert is SOLOABLE WITH ALL THE FOLLOWING FRAMES***** :

 

***** Which means that if it is soloable, OP stating you need a precise setup consisting of this and that is just plain wrong.

 

Well that's what I've been going on about for a while now, you need to think outside the box, if you do so, you'll realise that with the right combos, many frames you never thought of can carry you further than you'd have thought.

I did a T4 Defense last week, got up to wave 90, and guess which useless frame we had in our squad ? Ember.

The week before that, I had done another T4 Def up to wave 100 this time, with another useless frame : Volt.

This week, and for now (before exploiters find their way on top of the Survival leaderboards again (9hours solo run, stuff like that)), our setup that replaces Loki with Volt is on top of the leaderboards with 2h40mins (Weapons we used ? Noobs one of course, Kohm, Torid, Dread, Rakta Ballistica, and no Gammacor/Boltor P/Soma P).

A lot of Warframes are being underestimated, same with weapons. People believe that Rhino P + Boltor P = End Game ? Never used either there, most likely never will.

 

I do have doubt about an Ember. But that's only for solo. In a team of course she can be good. Provided some frames are there to compensate for her weaknesses. Though that can be said of other frames as well, so it's a moot point.

I don't see how Volt is useless... but okay...

I don't consider leaderboards, aka d!ck measuring contests, as a good measuring stick (bad puns), especially in WarGUNS. So I will skip this part to avoid further "diplomatic incidents"...

 

How could anyone in their right mind consider TORID or DREAD NOT top tier? Seriously? I know there are new players who need to "L2P", we've all been there, but I feel a bit insulted here. Also I don't know what could have made you think I considered these frames/weapons "bad"...? Is it because of what I said about this TA?

 

And who STILL believes Rhino and Boltor Prime are the all and end-all of WarGUNS?^^'

Edited March 2, 2015 by Marthrym

[Haukai]

You say that a precise setup isn't required. YET everything you mentioned... is a PRECISE setup. A PRECISE frame. Using a PRECISE build. Using only PRECISE abilities. Said abilities being used in a PRECISE way. Whether you do it alone or not is irrelevant. That's a lot of "precision" for such "freedom" in gameplay, isn't it?

If you consider using a warframe and 2-3 of its abilities in the most convenient way a PRECISE setup, then everything is PRECISE on it's own and there's no diversity.

 

 

I do have doubt about an Ember. But that's only for solo.

And that is why I used the word "squad", never said solo. But then again, which frame can solo 90 waves of T4 defense exactly ?

And if it wasn't for her, we would have never made it this far.

 

I don't see how Volt is useless... but okay...

I was being sarcastic there, portraying what most of the community thinks. Frames like Ember/Volt aren't used much, and they are looked upon when brought in "end game" games.

 

How could anyone in their right mind consider TORID or DREAD NOT top tier? Seriously?

The same persons that believe that full auto fire primaries like the Boltor Prime/Soma Prime are OP, and kill everything everywhere, no matter the level, which is pretty much a good part of the non-veteran community.

 

And who STILL believes Rhino and Boltor Prime are the all and end-all of WarGUNS?^^'

You'd be suprised at how many players have Rhino Prime as their most used frame, and Boltor Prime as their most used gun, and think that way.

[SquirmyBurrito]

thats false actually, since damage doesnt scale and cc infinitely scales your choice at going to higher levels will be restricted to cc skills or frames that specialize more at ccing mobs, the skill is there but it is still useless so what is the point?. the alert is not linked yes we know but the relativity of this issue is the point. steve said on numerous streams warframe has the sandbox element where it does not funnel your progression in a specific way, that is false as well due to the imbalance of both frames and weapons, there is not a system where on say tier 7 there is a bow, shotgun, ar, launcher etc that you can freely choose from per tier, your choice is actually funneled. the devs were great but over the past year they have shown to not really give a crap, everyone wanted focus, what did they give? dark sectors and archwing, complete failures, it took 2 years + to implement or rather yet to be implemented basic pvp system, stream after stream they laugh off serious topics raised by players, focus, balance, look at how long it took for them to address the rakta, and look at how many times they laughed at it on stream saying they intentionally made it crappy. raids as endgame? when people farm raids for 1-2 weeks what will the have then? raids being billed as endgame is also a problem, and we saw as scott himself said 2/3 of what a raid is so we can speculate a bit on how it will pan out. 

 

What's false? You need to be more clear. Most damage skills don't scale, but some do. Nope, there are damage skills that scale and can be used at higher levels. The relativity? So far the only comparison is the TA has high level mobs, and so will raids. Beyond that there is no real comparison. I don't remember him saying that. I don't really care about Focus. I don't remember them saying they intentionally made the Rakta Ballistica crappy, can you link me to the portion where they said that? I do remember Steve having trouble agreeing with the community's general consensus (he seemed to think its AoE proc made up for its general crappiness), but I don't remember him or anyone else saying it was supposed to be bad. What do you mean "what will [they] have then?" If raids are endgame that means they're the end of the game. If you expect something to be located after the raids then you don't want raids to be endgame. I'm pretty sure very few players actually want endgame content at this point.

 

Yes i could word it better, fault lies with me, at the same time this thread was mostly pointed at players who already know the state of balance and most of them understood what this is about.

 

Even oberon got radiation proc, it works like chaos at this point, given enough energy sure he can do it.

What you cant solo with??

1)ember, even if accelerant provides some cc amount of energy you would need to use to keep it up is enourmous and would deplete your restores, basically accelerant is 1 of those cc which are balanced, saves live but its short enough that it cant be spammed endlessly, if you somehow manage to complete it though will it be worth burning 200-300 restores just to prove a point that 1 in 100k can do it??

2)frost, cc consists of slows, short ranged ones so he cant exactly use this to survive, snow globe also doesnt have infinite hp(thank god for that) 

3)volt, electric shield is too small to cover large area, no cc at all, speed doesnt make avoiding bullets easier or even possible.

4)saryn, only cc being aftershock from miasma amount of energy it would use would be even greater than with ember.

5)mesa, shooting gallery simply wouldnt disarm enemies fast enough, meaning that chance of success is in great deal matter of luck.

6)mag, only cc being pull but it wont help much while capping points and probably wont affect enough and by enough i mean all enemies.

7)trinity, no cc, its been relegated to being battery charger.

8)nova, slow wont help against stray shots, might with huge deal of luck complete it but wouldnt count on it

9)zephyr, inability to spam cc and low range on it

10)rhino, inability to spam cc

 

10 out of 22 frames is rendered incapable of doing it, every frame that does it with exception of valkyr, limbo and vauban rely on 1 skill which means that out of 88 skills only 17 are being used in that kind of lvl. We will probably be able to bring these frames to raids, but they wont be useful and are gonna be carried by cc spammers.

 

Why im assuming it will look like that?? 71 skills stopped scaling at around 30lvl(if they even had a point before that), shield and hp stopped scaling around 30lvl.

 

Radiation procs don't last long.

1. Fire fright should provide enough CC to allow a skilled Ember player to solo. Accelerant would be a cherry on top. This is one of the few times I'll say skill would be needed to make something work in warframe.

2. Snow globe can be replenished.

3. You can place multiple electric shields at once, and Shock provides CC.

4. I think you're forgetting Saryn's molt augment.

5. Not sure about Mesa so I'll give you this one.

6. Mag has CC in Pull and Crush (wouldn't recommend using crush though), and Bullet Attractor with max range should shield you from a lot of enemy fire if placed correctly. With the Arcane helmet her Pull has a range of 65m, how is that not enough?

7. My Trinity doesn't have enough forma to test it out, but I don't see why Trinity shouldn't be able to solo.

8. Map wide slow+ the ability to move around quickly should keep you safe and make solo'ing doable.

9. Did Turbulence get nerfed while I wasn't looking or are you just ignoring its existence? And Tornado should help out.

10. Rhino doesn't need to be able to spam stomp if he isn't killing any enemies with it. He just needs to re-cast every 8 seconds or however long it is.

 

Nope, I only count 2 maybe 4 frames that may be incapable of soloing. Your problem is you really think that CC is the only answer, when it isn't. Valkyr would be relying on one skill. Limbo would be relying on 1-3 skills. Vauban has two (Bastille+Augment and Vortex) that could be used. Revise your numbers. I'll reserve judgement on raids and each frame's raiding potential until more information is given. From what I saw in the devstream, every frame should be capable of contributing to a successful run.

 

Revise your numbers. You failed to take into account the fact that some damage skills do scale and I'm willing to bet you ignored several abilities that would be useful.

Edited March 2, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito

[DSMK2]

Whelp, I've been saying enemy scaling has been the problem; high level enemies do not constitute endgame, but rather force us to acquire, use, and build specific warframes and mod combinations that allows us to easily negate their threat.

 

Levels doesn't really fit into a shooter... Barring equipment progression

 

And it's intensely lore breaking (An elite lancer in Saturn is miles weaker than an elite lancer in Ceres, even with the same armor and weapons); and as I've said, it creates a ceiling for equipment effectiveness. If these high level enemies are what raids are going to be filled with, I'm going to be disappointed.

 

Endgame to me is using our fully modded frames and equipment to take on by-design tougher enemies. Put us against special weapons squads (seriously, arm your Grineer with Drakgoons), tanks, turret emplacements, gunships, fer Lotus's sake!

 

---

 

The third phase of the event became an amusement, the only way to win was not to play hit stuff, but to render the enemy side incapable of completing their objective. It was just too risky to attack otherwise. Tactical alerts should promote alternate playstyles, not to reinforce a playstyle.

[RealPandemonium]

Whelp, I've been saying enemy scaling has been the problem; high level enemies do not constitute endgame, but rather force us to acquire, use, and build specific warframes and mod combinations that allows us to easily negate their threat.

The problem with the availability of such tactics is that they work just as well if not even better against lower level enemies.  You never really have to *play* the game, and even if you do, you'll have plenty of powercreeped weapons to faceroll with.

[Davoodoo]

What's false? You need to be more clear. Most damage skills don't scale, but some do. Nope, there are damage skills that scale and can be used at higher levels. The relativity? So far the only comparison is the TA has high level mobs, and so will raids. Beyond that there is no real comparison. I don't remember him saying that. I don't really care about Focus. I don't remember them saying they intentionally made the Rakta Ballistica crappy, can you link me to the portion where they said that? I do remember Steve having trouble agreeing with the community's general consensus (he seemed to think its AoE proc made up for its general crappiness), but I don't remember him or anyone else saying it was supposed to be bad. What do you mean "what will [they] have then?" If raids are endgame that means they're the end of the game. If you expect something to be located after the raids then you don't want raids to be endgame. I'm pretty sure very few players actually want endgame content at this point.

 

 

Radiation procs don't last long.

1. Fire fright should provide enough CC to allow a skilled Ember player to solo. Accelerant would be a cherry on top. This is one of the few times I'll say skill would be needed to make something work in warframe.

2. Snow globe can be replenished.

3. You can place multiple electric shields at once, and Shock provides CC.

4. I think you're forgetting Saryn's molt augment.

5. Not sure about Mesa so I'll give you this one.

6. Mag has CC in Pull and Crush (wouldn't recommend using crush though), and Bullet Attractor with max range should shield you from a lot of enemy fire if placed correctly. With the Arcane helmet her Pull has a range of 65m, how is that not enough?

7. My Trinity doesn't have enough forma to test it out, but I don't see why Trinity shouldn't be able to solo.

8. Map wide slow+ the ability to move around quickly should keep you safe and make solo'ing doable.

9. Did Turbulence get nerfed while I wasn't looking or are you just ignoring its existence? And Tornado should help out.

10. Rhino doesn't need to be able to spam stomp if he isn't killing any enemies with it. He just needs to re-cast every 8 seconds or however long it is.

 

Nope, I only count 2 maybe 4 frames that may be incapable of soloing. Your problem is you really think that CC is the only answer, when it isn't. Valkyr would be relying on one skill. Limbo would be relying on 1-3 skills. Vauban has two (Bastille+Augment and Vortex) that could be used. Revise your numbers. I'll reserve judgement on raids and each frame's raiding potential until more information is given. From what I saw in the devstream, every frame should be capable of contributing to a successful run.

 

Revise your numbers. You failed to take into account the fact that some damage skills do scale and I'm willing to bet you ignored several abilities that would be useful.

Oberon ulti proc lasts 12s.

1.Fire blast is los locked, napalm shots arent and hitscan bullets travel faster than blast wave

2.Not fast enough against enemies who kill 95% dmg reduction mesa, mirage, trinity with 1 blow

3.They dont block napalm shots, shock stuns only few targets for a short time, basically limited target accelerant.

4.Molt clone dies with single hit, augment aint needed since you cant regen hp.

5.

6.Its not radial, meaning you will constantly be shot in your back

7.Even 95% dmg reduction doesnt save you.

8.Ability to move in interception?? even if you slow them you need to face them in order to get them off consoles, most of the time thats where you will get shot.

9.Turbulence doesnt work against napalm aoe and hitscan bullets and even against non hitscan bullets it isnt 100% reliable.

10. If he manages to cover whole map at once yeah, but if 1 single enemy wont be affected, rhino uses 1 revive and these are limited.

 

I count in valkyr using hysteria and warcry, i count in limbo using riftwalk and banish and i count in vauban using vortex and bastille, yes 17 out of 88. You can be fancy and throw 1 of other 71 but they will have no effect or effect so insignificant compared to these 17 that they simply might not exist at this point.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Davoodoo

[RaveGreg]

I agree, I completely hate this new game mode of don't get hit once or your dead.

[CapedBaldy]

Just gonna say that Ember has the best damage boosting capabilities out of any Warframe with Fireball Frenzy and Accelerant there so she has a bit of a niche.

 

I liked the regular alert, but Escalation was just a pile of junk that proves how silly the game is.

Edited March 2, 2015 by CapedBaldy

[RadioLarity]

Read this at least:


 The only thing you all people commenting prove, is that you ALWAYS need exact frames, builds, and/or use exploits to complete Escalation. All of you saying "Completed with Saryn, Nova, 2 Lokis" or "Vauban, Loki, 2 Valkyrs", just prove what was OP saying. You NEED EXACT FRAMES to complete it. You need to have CC, Viral/Corrosive and a frame that will revive everyone.

Now rambling starts:

After the round ends it can either take 2 minutes or 15 depending on what you do. If you are really stubborn you can even solo with Vauban (again, CC frame) with, massive amounts of Energy Restores, spamming vortex all over the map but away from capture points. The only difference is it adds to the time taken to finish the mission. Probably would take 5 hours with that Vauban. The real fun would begin if we would get a free will to do the mission as we want to. Why can't I do this mission solo with for exapmle Mesa? Because enemies would wreck her face and she won't be able to keep them off the points. The best is all of this is happening because it's interception mission. You could do whatever you can with any frame if it would be literally any other mission than Endless Defense and Interception. Even Mobile Defense. But no. Bring CC frame, exploit and you're free to go. That's our future endgame content. GG

Edited March 2, 2015 by RadioLarity

[(PSN)Draconis1981]

If DE insist on copying destiny and yes there are some good ideas despite its lack of content and woeful story. Then at least copy the bits of a raid that where fun. the worrying out a puzzle bits. The jumping or parkour that could be utilized an arch wing part a hacking a stealth a rescue. Make a raid an adventure using the dynamics of warframe brought together in one mission with the ability to save a check point like in destiny. (we do have lives outside.)

[Marthrym]

If you consider using a warframe and 2-3 of its abilities in the most convenient way a PRECISE setup, then everything is PRECISE on it's own and there's no diversity.

 

I blame min-maxing, the devs say "we want players to use the full potential of the frames", but many abilities feel like a "waste" to me, unfortunately (Psychic Bolts for instance... I don't press 2... ever^^'). And the fact that most ults are AOE (which means no tedious pinpoint accuracy required of the player in a "fast-paced" game). And poor design or "ancient" design for some. But I can only talke for me here. And this issue is only magnified when scaling goes bonkers. Since it renders damage based abilities useless.

The sweet spot in WarGUNS is where you can press 1 with, let's say Volt, and still kill stuff. Not heavies or specialized units, maybe, but still, it gets the job done with grunts. That's what I want. If you want to promote the use of these abilities, making them useless doesn't help your cause, see what I mean?

That's why this route DE is taking is bad. Because it takes away a lot from the game. Removing the "horizontal" content from the players' hands in a game where all you have IS horizontal content is rather silly, isn't it?^^'

 

 

And that is why I used the word "squad", never said solo. But then again, which frame can solo 90 waves of T4 defense exactly ?

And if it wasn't for her, we would have never made it this far.

 

Oh I know, I was making this distinction to avoid people believing that I don't like having these frames in my teams. It wasn't for you.

 

 

 

 

I was being sarcastic there, portraying what most of the community thinks. Frames like Ember/Volt aren't used much, and they are looked upon when brought in "end game" games.

 

The same persons that believe that full auto fire primaries like the Boltor Prime/Soma Prime are OP, and kill everything everywhere, no matter the level, which is pretty much a good part of the non-veteran community.

 

You'd be suprised at how many players have Rhino Prime as their most used frame, and Boltor Prime as their most used gun, and think that way.

You should give them a chance. I don't think "most" of the comminity believes all that. At least I hope not...

 

I was surprised by the "By the numbers" results... To see that Ember, Mag, Volt, and (my) NYX were only at 1%, while Banshee was higher at 2%... And people say they never see a Banshee in their team... Then what can we say for these 4... I am sad.

[Haukai]

You should give them a chance. I don't think "most" of the comminity believes all that. At least I hope not...

 

I was surprised by the "By the numbers" results... To see that Ember, Mag, Volt, and (my) NYX were only at 1%, while Banshee was higher at 2%... And people say they never see a Banshee in their team... Then what can we say for these 4... I am sad.

Unfotunately... And not sure what you mean by "them". The community ? Or the Warframes ?

If you mean the Warframes, I do give them a chance, and I have most of them forma'd, and most of them over 10mil XP (for those that didn't glitch when I forma'd them, aaaah, sweet profile XP issues...), have none of them over 10% use because I use them all, maybe not equally, but I use them all and enjoy them all, even poor Hydroid.

And I wasn't surprised, like I said, "most" (kind of heh, everything's relative) of the community consider these frames useless, and never bother using them. It is indeed sad, I'm sad, let's be sad together and comfort ourselves with a glass of Greedy Milk alcohol!