This Was Very Poorly Designed Around Players With Arsenal Full Of Mods And Proves That Raids Consisting Of Lvl80 Enemies Isnt A Good Idea.

[Davoodoo]

So if you're having such a boring/not fun time, why are you still playing?

 

The escalation was set as a fun 'joke' challenge by the DE team following a glitch that spawned mobs at those levels. There's no grand conspiracy behind it around raids, or gauging people's effectiveness at them. You are reading far too much into this.

 

If you have such an easy time rolling through it... congrats, really. Here's your merit badge and round of applause.

 

For a bunch of other people (myself included), it involved a bit of thought around tactics and planning. There were multiple teams and setups that made the alert possible - it encouraged creativity. My team was far from 'an arsenal full of mods' and we were able to get through it with teamwork.

Because i still care, ppl rarely complain because they want to quit, ppl who complain usually would like something improved.

 

The joke is on them then, it pointed out at what state difficulty and balance is and how their vision of challenge looks, raising enemy lvl until only select setups are able to do anything when they speak about getting rid of meta.

 

Its no conspirancy, its just show of what veterans believed is the problem of this game since open beta launched, also showing what state raids will be if nothing is changed.

 

We have easy time not because we are good but because we broke difficulty of the game, if we can completely avoid getting hit which we already did with this TA then we can take lvl9999 enemies just as easy.

 

Looking at how you managed to complete it within 24hours from release, it havent required that much thought, if it however took week or month i could believe it was really complex process which required alot of thinking, preparing and was genuine planning challenge, even if it was pretty unchallenging in its execution.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Shy0]

i'm far from being a DE fanboy (in fact i think they're so sick of all my past negative comments that they're subconsciously blocking me out), but i have to ask this: what do you guys expect from endgame/raids/hardcore challenges?

 

in every game with endgame/raids/hardcore mode, there is bound to be an optimal way of playing. there will be an optimal build or set up or skill mix or team or equipment; it all depends on the game in question, from guild wars to diablo to vindictus to dota.

 

even if the developers design it with really flat and boring balance, the moment you have some sort of variety like different classes or stats or weapon mechanics, gamers will eventually find some way of playing that is "best" for that sort of content, whether it is taking the shortest amount of time to complete it or getting the highest score or rewards possible.

 

and for warframe, the way it is designed is "few players vs. many little enemies" (the bosses so far are pitiful when you're maxed out) and to an extent, "players vs. terrain", and that has specific difficulties in making things challenging for players. either they nerf the players/frames (generally poorly accepted on the forums), buff the enemies, increase the number of enemies or make the "terrain" more difficult e.g. more parkour, puzzles, traps, so there are only so many things they can do to make endgame stuff challenging, simply because of how the game is designed.

 

i think that what some people in this thread are asking for is impossible in any game (unless we were limited to playing only one class, using the same weapon, all having the same stats, and everyone having the same skill level). we're just going to have to accept that for a given type of content, there is going to be an optimal way of playing that content, and in the case of endgame content, there are going to be only very few optimal ways of playing because of the increased difficulty, which is meant for experienced players with maxed-out or nearly-maxed-out gear.

 

similarly, we're going to need to accept that some content will be easy for some players, and hard for others, whether because of playstyle or amount of alcohol ingested skill or "hardcoreness". i don't know how people have become so "entitled" nowadays, in the sense that they expect to get every reward or be able to play everything for simply playing how they like. that is not how it works. you either pick up the skills you need to get the rewards (and that might include being able to play enough different frames that you can respond to whatever the game throws at you) or you move on and play something else.

[(PSN)jwernecke]

i'm far from being a DE fanboy (in fact i think they're so sick of all my past negative comments that they're subconsciously blocking me out), but i have to ask this: what do you guys expect from endgame/raids/hardcore challenges?

 

in every game with endgame/raids/hardcore mode, there is bound to be an optimal way of playing. there will be an optimal build or set up or skill mix or team or equipment; it all depends on the game in question, from guild wars to diablo to vindictus to dota.

 

even if the developers design it with really flat and boring balance, the moment you have some sort of variety like different classes or stats or weapon mechanics, gamers will eventually find some way of playing that is "best" for that sort of content, whether it is taking the shortest amount of time to complete it or getting the highest score or rewards possible.

 

and for warframe, the way it is designed is "few players vs. many little enemies" (the bosses so far are pitiful when you're maxed out) and to an extent, "players vs. terrain", and that has specific difficulties in making things challenging for players. either they nerf the players/frames (generally poorly accepted on the forums), buff the enemies, increase the number of enemies or make the "terrain" more difficult e.g. more parkour, puzzles, traps, so there are only so many things they can do to make endgame stuff challenging, simply because of how the game is designed.

 

i think that what some people in this thread are asking for is impossible in any game (unless we were limited to playing only one class, using the same weapon, all having the same stats, and everyone having the same skill level). we're just going to have to accept that for a given type of content, there is going to be an optimal way of playing that content, and in the case of endgame content, there are going to be only very few optimal ways of playing because of the increased difficulty, which is meant for experienced players with maxed-out or nearly-maxed-out gear.

 

similarly, we're going to need to accept that some content will be easy for some players, and hard for others, whether because of playstyle or amount of alcohol ingested skill or "hardcoreness". i don't know how people have become so "entitled" nowadays, in the sense that they expect to get every reward or be able to play everything for simply playing how they like. that is not how it works. you either pick up the skills you need to get the rewards (and that might include being able to play enough different frames that you can respond to whatever the game throws at you) or you move on and play something else.

 

 

Hold up......"All my past negative comments"?  Dude you have 80 posts......

[Apex_Nemachode]

This TA has nothing to do with Raids.

Well I knew that it didn't BUT do you have any info of the lvl range of enemies for the raids?

 

For anyone wondering how I beat the alert (Escalation): https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/408939-tactical-alert-bonus-round-nearly-impossible/

 

Second Comment is mine. Just got the sigil today! :D

Edited February 28, 2015 by BLACKRIDERDEATH

[Scarabatica]

Well I knew that it didn't BUT do you have any info of the lvl range of enemies for the raids?

 

Pretty sure I overheard it was in the vicinity of 80 in one of the prime times or dev streams, but take that with a grain of salt (I can't remember who said it or where).

[Shy0]

Hold up......"All my past negative comments"?  Dude you have 80 posts......

 

why, thank you for picking out that line in my entire post.

[Davoodoo]

Well I knew that it didn't BUT do you have any info of the lvl range of enemies for the raids?

Dont bother, bunch of veterans who play this game for few years now try to explain newer players that what they perceive as new has been in game for years and how is that related to raids.

 

Bunch of newer players without any knowledge of context, situation and without experience try to comment on state of balance of around 1000 hours into game.

 

Pretty sure I overheard it was in the vicinity of 80 in one of the prime times or dev streams, but take that with a grain of salt (I can't remember who said it or where).

You may, we dont, our experience with de tells us that only way to make our concerns heard is making 20 page megathread/flamewar.

[Minion135]

What i want for gameplay, idk

 

-managing energy, hp, shields and ammo.

-avoiding getting hit without disabling enemies

-bullet sponge boss which also pose some actual threat

-bringing every frame i might like

-having a choice of pistol, shotgun, sniper, bow, assault rifle, mg and machine pistol which will perform as good as best weapon, after that more choice will be welcome as always.

-no keys

 

These are my 1st thoughts.

 

Seriously you make it sound like boss on wow oneshots tank while tank role is to keep boss permamently stunned to prevent that and healers are there to provide mana for tank so he can continue stunning.

Just fight Lephantis over and over if that's what you want. Minus the key bit, but he's not exactly hard to get nav coords for.

Edit: Also, I haven't played WoW in forever but I don't remember bosses ever being perma-stunned in raids by tanks.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Minion135

[Davoodoo]

Just fight Lephantis over and over if that's what you want. Minus the key bit, but he's not exactly hard to get nav coords for.

-Resource management isnt needed, at all.

-Boss is somewhat bullet spongy but he doesnt pose any threat

-Since he doesnt pose any threat every frame is viable, but i wouldnt guarantee that it wont change if it starts being dangerous, also rhino have huge advantage.

-My only choice is synoid gammacor looking at how much it outclasses other weapons.

-Key behind a key. Double layer even

 

Yes lephantis are de best attempt at endgame and challenging boss, but for reasons above it failed miserably.

Maybe theyll do better with j3, but looking at previous attempt ill believe when i see it happen.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Davoodoo

[DJ_Tyranny]

Even though I've been on WF for over two years, I don't post on the forums much. However, I do check them often to see feedback and news, what the Devs are working on, etc. Quite frankly, the saltiness, abusive posts and toxic responses generally keep me from adding in my two cents. I've seen less angry people in traffic jams.

 

It is perfectly acceptable that Warframe may not be in the place you would like it to be, with frames, tilesets, artwork, AI, etc., but I think what a lot of people fail to realize is "your mileage may vary." There will always be some who hate what you like, and love what you hate. You cannot please all of the people all of the time, but that doesn't mean that DE doesn't try. Personally, I do not envy them in this aspect. Do I like everything they do? Of course not. Do I love some things? Absolutely. That's why I paid money, I really didn't have, to become a Founder. I wanted to support them and the game.

 

For example, some people thought this Alert was terrible; others, like me, found it challenging and fun. Good grief, people, DE just threw something out there for people who commented about enjoying the bugged enemy levels, made a few red text jokes, and suddenly the tin foil hats come out and vitriol comes spewing forth. Is it really necessary?

 

 

The event doesn't have anything to do with raids, nor is it meant to set the premise for future enemies or events. It was meant as a lighthearted event, not to be taken seriously, for a cosmetic sigil. For the amount of times I've been trolled by a Vauban using Bounce or Switch Teleported by a sadistic Loki, I'm incredibly surprised so few people can actually see the underlying humor. Too serious, much?

 

Three friends of mine and I jumped on Skype and had a great time! We spent the better part of 20 minutes getting our frames and strategy worked out, felt confident, then aborted at Wave 2. We laughed so hard. We spent another 20 minutes putting together THEE ultimate kit that was certainly gonna work. Went in and had our collective asses handed to us before we claimed a tower. We laughed even harder. You'd have thought we were four Sun Tsus at all the tactical discussion going on. Despite wrestling with connectivity issues and the two prior attempts, we nailed it on attempt three. The synergy, the teamwork, the humor and the patience was amazing.

 

Do we look at our Sigils and think, "Oh we're so 'leet!?" No. We see them and remember it was the most fun we've had in a long time because we took it as intended: a LOL moment. I truly think some of you need to step back and evaluate your priorities. When you let a game get you so angry, it stops being a game and becomes unhealthy.

[Minion135]

-Resource management isnt needed, at all.

-Boss is somewhat bullet spongy but he doesnt pose any threat

-Since he doesnt pose any threat every frame is viable, but i wouldnt guarantee that it wont change if it starts being dangerous, also rhino have huge advantage.

-My only choice is synoid gammacor looking at how much it outclasses other weapons.

-Key behind a key. Double layer even

 

Yes lephantis are de best attempt at endgame and challenging boss, but for reasons above it failed miserably.

Maybe theyll do better with j3, but looking at previous attempt ill believe when i see it happen.

Doesn't pose a threat? Take one swing from the Grineer head and it's enough to down most frames. Also if you want to use any frame you want then do it instead of just saying Rhino has an advantage. That seems to imply you just fall back to using him because it's easy. If you want it challenging then mix things up and use different frames/weapons. Heck, I usually do Lephantis with Loki and primarily use Despair on him. Do I stealth during it? If I get hit by something and my health goes down yeah, sure.

 

Ultimately this game can be as challenging or as easy as you choose to make it with your gear and mods. If they were to tune something specifically for super OP people who have played forever then new people would not be able to enjoy it, at least not any time soon.

[Scarabatica]

Rad post

 

This guy gets it.

 

Though my pug and I were cheering and yelling in all caps for a good 5 minutes after we finished, followed shortly thereafter by running a survival mission kitted out in our new sigils.

[Davoodoo]

Doesn't pose a threat? Take one swing from the Grineer head and it's enough to down most frames. Also if you want to use any frame you want then do it instead of just saying Rhino has an advantage. That seems to imply you just fall back to using him because it's easy. If you want it challenging then mix things up and use different frames/weapons. Heck, I usually do Lephantis with Loki and primarily use Despair on him. Do I stealth during it? If I get hit by something and my health goes down yeah, sure.

 

Ultimately this game can be as challenging or as easy as you choose to make it with your gear and mods. If they were to tune something specifically for super OP people who have played forever then new people would not be able to enjoy it, at least not any time soon.

Never got hit by it, so i cant say how much it hits, but due to me not being hit means it doesnt pose any threat to me, all of his attacks are dodgeable and this was 1 of my wishes.

 

Rhino having advantage will matter when attacks wont be so easy to dodge since he is able to disable boss again leading to cheesy tactic like loki disarming.

 

Basically you tell me to set my own difficulty based on how op stuff im gonna use, only in 2013 and beyond you could hear that obvious balance flaw and exploits are a feature called "flexible difficulty" and actually have ppl believe it.

 

This guy gets it.

 

Though my pug and I were cheering and yelling in all caps for a good 5 minutes after we finished, followed shortly thereafter by running a survival mission kitted out in our new sigils.

So was probably each of veterans, we all cheered when completed our first run against high lvl enemies.

 

I remember when i was proud of my 200 wave defense run, but in reality all i used were exploits which turned enemies into training dummies while i was hidden behind impenetrable wall.

After 2 years my opinion stands the same, its exploit and difficulty cant be built around exploit if its supposed to factor in skill and be fair. Not only that but exploits also waste developers time.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Davoodoo

[sanj66]

So what endgame do you want? Not hardcore and not casual coz it is endgame, also not normal diff coz it is endgame too. Look at WoW endgame and dont tell me that it is not similar to what you see in the tactical. 1 mistake can lead to wipe, you gotta now the game well and be maxed out to participate. Come on, you sound just like a hypocrite.

the issue is the relevance, this while not related to the raids is a hint of what is to come, it makes certain frames, weapons or even builds irrelevant constricting player choice and forcing you to play certain frames or builds. steve is always talking about the game being sort of sandbox, forcing people to play a certain way or certain frames is not sandbox style it is typical mmo in using the best now using what you want to use. that is the issue he raised that you all fail to grasp, its not that it was too hard etc, there were set ways to play and in some cases set builds you must use even though your current build may be optimal and a great build you would have to switch to something else. the whole alert was just bring your best cc frame or use the best cc build on your frame. that is not a challenge at all that is poor designing and WF in the past few months have had too much of that.

[sanj66]

Then perhaps Warframe isn't for you?

 

I personally loved the alert. It forced everyone to think outside of the box, and the number of really cool and unique strategies everyone used has been great to read about. So many different options to win. Some of them have been incredibly clever.

absolutely false, all you had to do was use cc skills or use specific cc oriented frames to win, that is not outside the box or anything new to the game.secondly every single composition and team build was oriented around cc or some form of cc so there was no different set of options it was a facade of a choice, in the end you still had to use or focus on cc.

[Xylia]

OP:

 

All you need to beat this TA is...

 

1). Loki with Power Duration, Redirection and Vitality. Streamline if you have room for it.

2). Galatine. You don't even need a Catalyst. Seriously, you don't. Just a Lv30 Galatine, no Catalyst.

3). Pressure Point, Fury, Cold+Status, Toxin+Status mods + Stance mod (this will barely fit on a non-catalysted Galatine).

 

Simply cast Invisibility full-time and mash E. Win.

 

EDIT: Seriously, I was hitting for 30k+ damage on some of those leap attack hits. Occasionally I'd accidentally touch an enemy before hitting them and even then it'd only take 3 hits per enemy to kill.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Xylia

[Davoodoo]

OP:

 

All you need to beat this TA is...

 

1). Loki with Power Duration, Redirection and Vitality. Streamline if you have room for it.

2). Galatine. You don't even need a Catalyst. Seriously, you don't. Just a Lv30 Galatine, no Catalyst.

3). Pressure Point, Fury, Cold+Status, Toxin+Status mods + Stance mod (this will barely fit on a non-catalysted Galatine).

 

Simply cast Invisibility full-time and mash E. Win.

 

EDIT: Seriously, I was hitting for 30k+ damage on some of those leap attack hits. Occasionally I'd accidentally touch an enemy before hitting them and even then it'd only take 3 hits per enemy to kill.

Yeah i know, even put an edit to inform of that, but ppl still take everything said so literally...

 

To this point they tell me that you can replace loki and that counts as diversity

Edited March 1, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Kastoremaru]

I really liked playing Banshee in the Tactical Alert.  Slow Nova + Banshee Silence meant that we 1 shotted almost every mob.  I just right click stealth attacked them from behind.  Went back with a irradiating disarm Loki and that was darn fun too.  It took quite a few PUGs to get the right compostion though.  

 

They should have a planet dedicated to hard missions like these with the corresponding rewards.  Double the rewards tables and make it all rares.

[Ceryncross]

Blinding Excal, Disarming Loki, and Mag to pull all enemies off once done.

[xRufus7x]

This is not about bringing loki, its about complete reliance on hard cc or perma invis/invincibility

 

Loki is just prme example offering both long range perma cc and perma invis.

 

Whether you replace it with vauban, limbo, valkyr, hydroid or whatever means you still need hard cc and options are limited since at least 1 slot in 4player group is reserved.

 

The goal to achieve with raids is to bring player and not his frame

I find this odd. Any RPG game with a multiplayer aspect, and certainly any game I have played with raids always has chat full of need DPS/Tank/healer. Why is Warframe the exception to this rule? Why is it bad that some frames excel in their rolls? Sometimes I think that people forget that Warframe has its roots just as much in the RPG world as the Shooter world.

Edited March 1, 2015 by xRufus7x

[VeronikaStripper]

I hope none of DE take this post seriously. A lot of people are talking like this is going to be a direct representation of raids.  This tactical alert has nothing to do with raiding.

 

This sounds like the same conversation that all the people out there are like.. "OMG DONT VACCINATE YOUR KIDS!"

 

Ridiculous.

[Davoodoo]

I find this odd. Any RPG game with a multiplayer aspect, and certainly any game I have played with raids always has chat full of need DPS/Tank/healer. Why is Warframe the exception to this rule? Why is it bad that some frames excel in their rolls? Sometimes I think that people forget that Warframe has its roots just as much in the RPG world as the Shooter world.

Difference is simple, if there is a healer and tank then theres need to be a place for them, if healer and tank wouldnt be needed they wouldnt be brought.

 

You can say that its the same with cc/nukes/def/heals in warframe, but having cc in team renders def and heals pointless while also reducing value of nukes since disabled enemies cant retaliate thus theres no dpsrace, then also all guns render nukes pointless.

Not only that but cc would always be useful.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Davoodoo

[SquirmyBurrito]

Yeah i know, even put an edit to inform of that, but ppl still take everything said so literally...

 

To this point they tell me that you can replace loki and that counts as diversity

 

But its true. The part of the TA alert general strats that have the least diversity is weapon choice, and that is just because we are restricted to heavy blades.

 

Your OP gives the illusion that you actually think all of the things listed are needed.

 

"1) got loki??

2) got 4 corrosive proejctions??

3) got fully modded scindo or galantine with viral build??(viral helps alot, not necessary though)

4) got enough energy restores or trin??

5) got some slow nova or vortex vauban"

 

-Loki is unnecessary.

-Corrosive Projection is unnecessary.

-A fully modded melee weapon is unnecessary.

-Energy restores and Trinity are unnecessary.

-Vauban and Nova are unnecessary.

 

If you didn't want people hopping in this thread and giving you the kind of response I just did, you shouldn't have typed the things you did.

 

And the last bit of your post isn't even true "still some hard cc, perma invis or hysteria is needed."

 

Hard CC can be subbed for Soft CC. Unrelated: If I had friends that actively played the game I'd give Radial Disarm (not irradiating disarm)+ Repelling Bastille a go and see how it performs.

[Davoodoo]

 

But its true. The part of the TA alert general strats that have the least diversity is weapon choice, and that is just because we are restricted to heavy blades.

 

Your OP gives the illusion that you actually think all of the things listed are needed.

 

"1) got loki??

2) got 4 corrosive proejctions??

3) got fully modded scindo or galantine with viral build??(viral helps alot, not necessary though)

4) got enough energy restores or trin??

5) got some slow nova or vortex vauban"

 

-Loki is unnecessary.

-Corrosive Projection is unnecessary.

-A fully modded melee weapon is unnecessary.

-Energy restores and Trinity are unnecessary.

-Vauban and Nova are unnecessary.

 

If you didn't want people hopping in this thread and giving you the kind of response I just did, you shouldn't have typed the things you did.

 

And the last bit of your post isn't even true "still some hard cc, perma invis or hysteria is needed."

 

Hard CC can be subbed for Soft CC. Unrelated: If I had friends that actively played the game I'd give Radial Disarm (not irradiating disarm)+ Repelling Bastille a go and see how it performs.

 

While i agree that OP covered only 1 setup and i chosen this specific setup for its reliability, if you manage to get everything mentioned theres nearly no possibility of this failing, i simply couldnt cover all possible setups and i believe using general terms wouldnt get the strong enough message.

 

Also thread name was different before de persauded me to use less offensive wording.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Davoodoo

[BlazeJefferson]

I enjoyed the tactical alert escalation more than the first round of the tactical alert because it was harder. I liked how it required different thinking for both stages.Of course the tactic for the escalation would have worked for the first round. After running it a few times the only think I found very helpful was a slow nova. Loki certainly made it easier but it was possible to do without.