Press 4 To Win A Problem? Yes How To Solve ? Simple

[faiznorizan]

theres actually a limmit on how much energy efficiency you can get, i belive the cap is at 85% or somthing

75% actually

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

really ? yea there's that to i guess could you elaborate on how it actually works ?

In game, efficiency is calculated as Cost = Base cost * efficiency (in decimals). So a 50 cost ult = 100 * .5 efficiency.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

When someone says "it's simple" it usually translates to "i got a poorly thought out idea" abilities are meant to be like another gun used a lot.

First abilities? Sure. Second and third? Depends. Ultimates? Generally, no. That's why they're metered at all. Too many things in the game make that meter completely irrelevant, and the abilities that are supposed to be the best also become readily available.

And look at Saryn, fleeting expertise helps twice lol.

The number 4 can't save you when you are in the minute 100 of any survival, just saying.

I prefer to not have to wait an hour (and 40 minutes) before I can actually be challenged.

Go play destiny if you don't like using powers.

Are you saying you couldn't tell the difference between Warframe and any other generic shooters until you got the Vault mods? Using powers =/= spamming one or two buttons.

[KirukaChan]

I'd be more in favor of cooldowns on abilities (with more powerful abilties having longer cooldowns, and abilities that NEED to be spammed like Desecrate not having any cooldown) rather than lowering the max efficiency or changing how Fleeting works.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I'd be more in favor of cooldowns on abilities (with more powerful abilties having longer cooldowns, and abilities that NEED to be spammed like Desecrate not having any cooldown) rather than lowering the max efficiency or changing how Fleeting works.

Why? All this does is kill flexibility. Players wouldn't have the abilities they wanted when they wanted, even if they took care of their energy requirements.

[taiiat]

Ability Cooldowns

Warframe tried that already. it was not successful in Warframe.

Players stood around and waited for Cooldowns to finish.

if they were unable to wait for Cooldowns to finish, they died.

it went poorly.

[KirukaChan]

Warframe tried that already. it was not successful in Warframe.

Players stood around and waited for Cooldowns to finish.

if they were unable to wait for Cooldowns to finish, they died.

it went poorly.

 

Really? That sucks. It seemed to work in Borderlands.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

OMFG. OP your wrong and you should feel wrong.

Edited March 8, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

So I've decided, for the last time, to put together why P4TW is a bad thing. As simply as I can. taiiat already gave a decent explanation but I put in the time to write this so Imma post it.

I want to start by saying that P4TW isn't a problem for everyone. It only affects those of us that want warframe to provide a decent challenge. So, many may disagree on the issue due to a difference in opinion. It's important to make this distinction so that we can get past the pointless bickering that usually crops up around this topic and actually come to a mutual understanding.

 

So why is the current state of power use damaging to challenge as a whole. In short, current abilities are extremely effective in all parts of combat, heavily available, and uncounterable. Any group of enemies that lack a "nullification" characteristic can be trivialized regardless of level or any other factors.

 

This ends up splitting the game into two less than ideal situations. If abilities are not nullified any and all enemies can be made trivial through CC abilities and thus no challenge can be presented through interacting with those enemies. If abilities are nullified then all of the ridiculously unbalanced difficulty additions come crashing down on the player all at once. Warframe doesn't have any reliable damage mitigation outside of CC power usage so once enemies gain the capability to one shot a player something as simple as stepping into the line of sight of any enemy becomes a death sentence.

 

Even outside of CC, 4 abilities have always had a bad habit of being the optimal solution to whatever challenge DE throws at the player. Presenting obstacles that can all be surmounted using the same tactic leads to them feeling uninteresting and ultimately boring for players interested in challenging themselves. This issue is emphasized even further by the lack of engagement required to execute these tactics.

 

A lot of the players that speak out against P4TW are doing so due to a desire to be engaged in the gameplay through a challenge of some sort.

 

Nobody is trying to neuter the caster playstyle, rather we want it to require some involvement beyond using a single power repeatedly. It'd also be nice if there were some aspect of combat where my guns had the edge over powers. The same for melee as well. If we had more ways to interact with enemies to achieve victory all balanced against each other to be situationally effective the challenge provided by this game could be much deeper and could provide a decent amount of longevity from the mechanics alone.

 

TL;DR: If the challenge provided by this game is ever going to be interesting sometimes pressing 4  needs to be the wrong answer.

Edited March 8, 2015 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[Burns2PvP]

No it's not, other frames would not be affected or would be benefits from this.

So what ? It would get rid of a major part of the issue. If we have 280% strength and can cast at 25 still, doesn't matter how much they alter the abilities. They either make it 100% useless at base else they remove or tweak those mods and nerf the living S#&$ out of them..... OR They remove it.

[taiiat]

Really? That sucks. It seemed to work in Borderlands.

it works in Borderlands because Class Abilities don't effectively kill everything in the same square mile as you. they're great and useful, but they aren't 'the end of the universe' for the Enemies.

that plus Warframe throws Enemies in much larger numbers at the Players in Warframe - seemed to total up to Players waiting for the Cooldowns because they handled all of the Enemies that were in existence at the press of a button.

[Gilmaesh]

Don't change the actual gameplay because you don't like it. Players who like power spamming should have the right to continue to do so.

 

But

 

Ask DE to create a new game mode for pve where corrupted mod are unavailable, most of them are the reason why enemies are hopeless until they reach an absurd level.

DE is making some mods unavailable for pvp, apply the same formula.

 

There are other things out there that allow us to spam abilities (ie EV/greedy mag), and i saw some ideas about mobs killed by abilities don't give energy orbs. But a new game mode based on the ideas of the new pvp mode could be a descent start.

 

Everyone will be able to play the way they like.

 

Now, that doesn't mean current game mode is without problems, i'm against anything that can one shot you, mobs need some balance on how they scale. They also need to be able to resist a bit CC at higher level, escalation showed us that. 

Auras need a cap (hello x4 corrosive)

and many other things...

Edited March 8, 2015 by Gilmaesh

[LeshJaeThiHah]

FIRST OF ALL spamming with trin is ok because that is what trin was made for!

she was not. developer made her so in the last nerfs.

 

i want to remind you or rather enlight you that in U7 i was capable of tanking entire approach of the two waves of the mobs with link, providing energy for the team with ev and also heal them with blessing if need be.

 

now - link is worthless, blessing is worthless and ev is worthless. trinity is useless.

Edited March 8, 2015 by LeshJaeThiHah

[AsahiOka]

I prefer to not have to wait an hour (and 40 minutes) before I can actually be challenged.

If YOU want a challenge don't use powers, go melee only, or something but don't ruin the fun for the rest of people.

[Umbra_Asterism]

If YOU want a challenge don't use powers, go melee only, or something but don't ruin the fun for the rest of people.

 

Nah, he'd rather just ruin everyone else's fun. To put the fun in camps if you will.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

If YOU want a challenge don't use powers, go melee only, or something but don't ruin the fun for the rest of people.

I'm just gonna quote KaxMcc:

So I've decided, for the last time, to put together why P4TW is a bad thing. As simply as I can. taiiat already gave a decent explanation but I put in the time to write this so Imma post it.

I want to start by saying that P4TW isn't a problem for everyone. It only affects those of us that want warframe to provide a decent challenge. So, many may disagree on the issue due to a difference in opinion. It's important to make this distinction so that we can get past the pointless bickering that usually crops up around this topic and actually come to a mutual understanding.

 

So why is the current state of power use damaging to challenge as a whole. In short, current abilities are extremely effective in all parts of combat, heavily available, and uncounterable. Any group of enemies that lack a "nullification" characteristic can be trivialized regardless of level or any other factors.

 

This ends up splitting the game into two less than ideal situations. If abilities are not nullified any and all enemies can be made trivial through CC abilities and thus no challenge can be presented through interacting with those enemies. If abilities are nullified then all of the ridiculously unbalanced difficulty additions come crashing down on the player all at once. Warframe doesn't have any reliable damage mitigation outside of CC power usage so once enemies gain the capability to one shot a player something as simple as stepping into the line of sight of any enemy becomes a death sentence.

 

Even outside of CC, 4 abilities have always had a bad habit of being the optimal solution to whatever challenge DE throws at the player. Presenting obstacles that can all be surmounted using the same tactic leads to them feeling uninteresting and ultimately boring for players interested in challenging themselves. This issue is emphasized even further by the lack of engagement required to execute these tactics.

 

A lot of the players that speak out against P4TW are doing so due to a desire to be engaged in the gameplay through a challenge of some sort.

 

Nobody is trying to neuter the caster playstyle, rather we want it to require some involvement beyond using a single power repeatedly. It'd also be nice if there were some aspect of combat where my guns had the edge over powers. The same for melee as well. If we had more ways to interact with enemies to achieve victory all balanced against each other to be situationally effective the challenge provided by this game could be much deeper and could provide a decent amount of longevity from the mechanics alone.

 

TL;DR: If the challenge provided by this game is ever going to be interesting sometimes pressing 4  needs to be the wrong answer.

If you would stop acting like everyone who disagrees with you is out to destroy your fun maybe we could have an actual discussion. I don't have fun pressing 4 for an hour with my eyes half shut until the enemies get too strong and I have to press 3 (or whatever my frame's CC button is) instead.

[AsahiOka]

-snip-

It's boring with or without the key 4 when you know how to play, I don't like to wait 40 minutes to "start playing" too.

But I'm only saying that some people like it and it's ok, we don't have the right to change something if we don't like it.

I hope the raids comes with enemies lvl100+ from the start and the new faction becomes invincible to wf powers.

We have different opinions and my English is not so good to maintain a discussion like this ^^'

Edited March 8, 2015 by DJNeonNight

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

It's boring with or without the key 4 when you know how to play, I don't like to wait 40 minutes to "start playing" too.

But I'm only saying that some people like it and it's ok, we don't have the right to change something if we don't like it.

I hope the raids comes with enemies lvl100+ from the start and the new faction becomes invincible to wf powers.

We have different opinions and my English is not so good to maintain a discussion like this ^^'

Problem is level 100 introduces many other problems. At that level, only the most powerful weapons can be used, even excluding top tier weapons that aren't OP. Also, close range play is heavily discouraged, killing things like melee and shotguns. Besides, level 100 is played exactly the same as, say, level 60 or level 250: simply crowd control/use abilities that make you invulnerable so you can't get shot at. This makes it much more difficult to enjoy because either you have nothing shooting at you or you're dead.

Removing powers entirely for the new faction gives players no reason to play as anything but Valkyr or Rhino, and kills progression. That's like Mario saying you can't jump in world 8.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

There are still a couple of people saying things like "don't ruin our fun" or "let people play how they want".

 

So I want to ask, what specifically makes power spam fun?

 

I'm not exactly a fan of power spamming in general, so I'm not sure what aspects make it enjoyable. But I'm almost positive that whatever enjoyment that comes from power spamming can be provided in a separate way that is equal to or even better than what we have now.
 

[TheBrsrkr]

I enjoy seeing a crapload of numbers pop up after pressing 4 with Excal, but I've frequently thought about how the other players feel about me stealing all the kills in that room and half of the next. I have a simple (maybe too simple ?) solution to 4 spam, if it' really that big of a Problem:

 

-Boost all the standard Power Maxes to 200 instead of 150

-Make 4 ability cost 150, leave the rest alone

?????????????

Profit!!!

[Doughalo2]

she was not. developer made her so in the last nerfs.

 

i want to remind you or rather enlight you that in U7 i was capable of tanking entire approach of the two waves of the mobs with link, providing energy for the team with ev and also heal them with blessing if need be.

 

now - link is worthless, blessing is worthless and ev is worthless. trinity is useless.

 

Are you... What Trin is better now if you look closely, and not OP, she provides constant full bars of energy and can still tank al that.

[LeshJaeThiHah]

she can't tank (nobody can). damage reduction by link is not enough. you can't kill with link now. because you will die faster.
ev is useless because of medium and large energy restores and yes you can deploy 200 of those just by one player, team consists of four. 400 energy just in one second.
blessing as it now - as spamm ability - is useless. (it's a result of the fix of qt/r combo.)

the only reason to use trinity now is to pair her with a nekros who desecrate with health.

nothing else.

Edited March 9, 2015 by LeshJaeThiHah

[ArcusVeles]

she can't tank (nobody can). damage reduction by link is not enough. you can't kill with link now. because you will die faster.

ev is useless because of medium and large energy restores and yes you can deploy 200 of those just by one player, team consists of four. 400 energy just in one second.

blessing as it now - as spamm ability - is useless. (it's a result of the fix of qt/r combo.)

the only reason to use trinity now is to pair her with a nekros who desecrate with health.

nothing else.

I put a Toxin mod + Power Throw on a Glaive to deplete my health without hitting my shields much, have Quick Thinking on so my health doesn't go below 2, then hit Blessing for 99%+ damage resistance for my whole team.  EV keeps my energy maxed.  I'm basically invincible, and so is my team 90% of the time.

 

Link still allows me to hit enemies through walls from 40+ meters away, one-shotting most trash.

 

Trinity is still great.  Not nearly as great as she used to be, but if you adapt to how she works now she's still very powerful.

[Doughalo2]

she can't tank (nobody can). damage reduction by link is not enough. you can't kill with link now. because you will die faster.

ev is useless because of medium and large energy restores and yes you can deploy 200 of those just by one player, team consists of four. 400 energy just in one second.

blessing as it now - as spamm ability - is useless. (it's a result of the fix of qt/r combo.)

the only reason to use trinity now is to pair her with a nekros who desecrate with health.

nothing else.

No way in hell bro, how about NOT using a spam build ?? and go duration, use link and blessing and presto?? YOU CAN TANK ANYTHING, She carries teams too, you obviously are using your old builds, energy restore cost recourses and have limited range, you like them because you sit and do nothing but press 4 for the game... enough said, if you suck at sing trin now I just don't understand how you can't, obviously you can't enovle and adapt.

 

What you mean link isn't enough dam reduction... its 75% DONT JUST STAND STILL YOU HAVE TO DODGE BULLETS !!!! and late game use blessing with duration silly :::P

Edited March 9, 2015 by Doughalo2

[Davoodoo]

FIRST OF ALL spamming with trin is ok because that is what trin was made for!

 

EDIT FLEETING EXPERTISE

 

The whole point to a corrupted mod is to have a down side, with frames with no duration (e.g. all spam frames)

they have no duration, thus no downside. Make it take range, or power away OR health or shield 

 

Take a look at narrow minded... even on frames that require duration, they ALSO need range (for the most part)

and overextended ? same deal !

 

fixed, but with alot of angry people, but its for the good of the game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This will pretty much enforce mobile battery charger, called trinity and its never ok if we make single frame mandatory.

You got team without trinity?? enjoy being energy starved and unable to use 3/4 of your abilities and still being relegated to using only 1.

Then we have frames which have been pretty much built around spamming few select powers and wasting tons of energy like zephyr with her mobility, limbo needing to control rift to play optimaly and mesa relying on high efficiency for peacemaker.

Then we have too much duration on our abilities, chaos can last up to 70 seconds, with 4 energy siphons it will be 140 energy before duration runs out.

 

It isnt that simple.

You should be able to spam few abilities, fireballs, shocks, tail wind etc. are basically made around idea of space mage flinging 1 spell after another.

But then we have 4's which should be heavily limited.

 

If you want to resolve this, then you would at least need to reduce duration on many cc's, reduce efficiency, increase energy costs for 4's, remove energy cost from most 1's and make trinity unable to get energy from evamp.

All of above except evamp can be done by simple numbers tweaking.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Davoodoo