De's Word And Its Lack Of Integrity: Another Viewpoint From Another Long-Time Player

[theammostore]

All of that^.

 

Also, a big reason that contributes to the opinion that DE is doing this crap on purpose, is that all of the stealth changes have been nerfs and nothing that benefits the players. Megan even made a thread stating that Excal's ulti change was changed to work as intended after being buffed, nerfed, and buffed again.

Rejuvination isn't stopped by damage. It's a constant health regen even under fire.

 

There's one stealth buff. Try looking for others

[MrWaffles143]

To the community:
I am a software developer myself. I feel for you DE. The situation you are dealing with is something my coworkers and I deal with on a daily basis. For the community what I’m talking about is new development vs support. Most developers want to create new and amazing content, but software ALWAYS has bugs. There is no perfect code out there no matter what any programmer says. I spend at least 75% of my day fixing, patching, and testing. The other 25% (if I’m lucky) is spent working on a new feature we may or may not use.

 

Point 1:
This is not new knowledge for most, but I’ll share it as criticism as stated in the Ops disclaimer. This game is non subscription. That being said, DE makes their money on new content. Old content will still be purchased, but not nearly as much as new content. Basic supply and demand. The community wants new content, DE makes, they buy, and repeat.

 

Point 2:
Balancing is not new to games. Most new updates, and patches remind me of a quote, “You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. (Harvey Dent The Dark Knight)” You look at all long running mmos and I feel like this is accurate. I bring up mmos because of the time they have lived not the comparison of game style.

 

To DE:

In point 1 I understand you make money off of your new content, but look at what your business model is. Make OP new weapon/frame and make initial profit off of it (first week maybe 2) then make it easier to farm, or at the very least the non-purchasing farmers have it. Lastly, now that the community is starting to get it (aka it’s now used by more than just a handful of players) and nerf the crap out of it. Repeat this process. I have been playing from update 3 and I am now numb to this cycle sadly.

 

In point 2 I used that quote because what is happening to Warframe is not a new situation. The balance with Devs and Players is fragile (this post is proof for example), but at what point do you sit down and ask your selves this question, “On our next BIG update (17, 18, 19,…) do we not add new content and realize the original scope of the game has grown too big and rewrite it from the ground up, or do we keep adding new content, milk this cow till its dead, and go down with the ship?”

 

 

[Xikiri]

Shifting the weight of the blame of events and whatnot to someone else is just as irresponsible, guys... We all know the roots of the problem have been around long before any agreement to any extent was made.

This isn't Perfect World's fault.

This isn't Perfect World Entertainment's fault.

They have no hand in what is here now. Please stop directing your frustration where it isn't warranted, despite the reputation each of them have. Please. That isn't going to fix a thing.

[VampirePirate]

...milk this cow till its dead, and go down with the ship?”

That seems to be the norm.

[OneMember]

Feels like year of progress was just removed when U16 hitted with stealth changes.

[BlizzardMamba]

This game is flaying itself and it scares me... When I started playing in late 2013 everything seemed so perfect. DE appeared to be a developer who I could trust with my future favourite game. Then I had to take a break and started again a couple weeks ago and now I have the feeling that everything is falling apart... 

 

I can understand erverybody who has lost faith in DE because lets face it much has changed (and not for the better)

 

- Every new frame is behind a giant grindwall, it isnt any fun getting Mesa or to a lesser extent Mirage or Chroma  

- Archwing is boring and broken, yet they release even more broken stuff into the game

- They take out prime parts, so Im afraid to get ducates because tomorrow it could all be taken away. 

etc. 

 

There just isnt any clear direction and I dont feel secure with the game and esp. DE anymore. 

 

.... Well this was a load of angsty babbeling, all I wanted to say is that I can understand everyone who has become wary of DE.  

[AlphaHorseman]

Very well said, OP. You bring up many valid points.

[Flowen231]

Rejuvination isn't stopped by damage. It's a constant health regen even under fire.

 

There's one stealth buff. Try looking for others

Because that really matters. Opinions won't change until something of equal magnitude to all the negativity are found, and so far, theres nothing of the sort in sight. Such is DE's way of doing things: Nerf everything down before we figure out a way to propperly balance them. And in most cases they even fail at that.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Flowen231

[WanderoftheAether]

OPENING STATEMENT / DISCLAIMER

This is constructive criticism and feedback. It has every right to be here under Feedback Categories and the subsection General. I feel as though I should make this disclaimer due to seeing some posts every once in a blue moon being locked/deleted after pointing out the team's state-of-mind with legitimate complaints and no valid reason given for the locking. If you disagree, then all I can say is I'm sorry.

 

For sheer example, I'm going to use Excalibur's situation as the exhibit (simply because of how incredibly easy it is to do so, considering the past 48 hours). Let's look at what is known as "ViverGate," as well as before and after. 

 

 

1) Excalibur's Radial Javelin was a bunch of Skana-like physical...things that jetted out from him as he struck the ground. There was an enemy cap, but it was still a radial attack. This meant as long as enemies and Excalibur were in direct line-of-sight someone was being impaled.

 

2) DE buffs Radial Javelin by removing the target limit. This meant as long as there was no physical obstruction, EVERYTHING was getting impaled.

 

2.5) DE states they would lessen the grind (many times, if I remember correctly).

 

3) DE buffs Excalibur by removing all LoS requirements from Radial Javelin as well as giving it a stun. This made Excalibur more versatile.

     - note -   This was implemented due to the changes made or were to be made to Radial Blind at the time.

 

4) With no decrease of grind in sight, players learn to use this new gameplay asset as a means to take matters in their own hands and remove much of the grind their own way. Regardless if you view the methods as unruly or not, DE did this to themselves in a plethora of ways. Three of which are listed below.

      a- Lack of testing out new mechanics and game modes before implementation

      b- Lack of following through with their word in decreasing the grind, as per many a statement

      c- Creating another grindwall instead of implementing a different and more rewarding system

 

5 - ViverGate) DE responds to 4 (I promise that wasn't planned) by going on a massive nerf spree of multiple Warframes. This put into place a very buggy and widely unaccepted line-of-sight requirement upon all of the frames to multiple extents, essentially making each frame a liability in his or her own way(s). 

     [it seems as though LoS has a multitude of settings. First being the most basic: within the sight of the frame.

      Second, the pinpoint accurate: The crosshair has to be on the target before the ability can be used effectively.

      Third, the on-camera: Whatever it is being targeted, it was to be on the screen to be affected. Otherwise, the

      ability either won't be used effectively or cannot be cast (mostly the former). Fourth, the "unintentional" Radial

      Blind nerf: Despite all efforts, the line-of-sight was incredibly inaccurate, unrealistic, and debilitating. The current

      setting we have for Rad Jav is Three, which is a topic I'm soon to get to.]

 

6 - Post ViverGate) After the unjustified nerfing of multiple frames, the community lashed out with an uproar louder than I've ever heard...metaphorically. This uproar caused DE to rescind their nerfs on each frame after about three days.

 

7) Over the past 48 hours, Excalibur was singled out via stealth nerf. This change that was intentionally left out of the Update 16 patch notes to avoid the backlash that was mentioned earlier. Furthermore, this was done against the statement mentioned in point 3.

 

 

 

Let's recap:

DE buffs Rad Jav due to changes to another ability

DE takes away due to rep farms taking advantage of an immediately broken system

DE re-buffs Rad Jav due to their knowing it was a mistake

DE takes away because of God-knows-what (some speculate E Gate) and is now worse than the original Rad Jav with the target cap

DE claims it is now working as intended

 

 

 

I'm going to get one thing out of the way before I continue. I don't appreciate being lied to. We know very well just how that last part is untrue. Radial Javelin isn't working as intended. But let's assume for argument's sake that this is the truth. If this is true, then we were lied to about the buff being in place due to Radial Blind's changes. One way or another, DE, you have put yourselves into a tight and uncomfortable corner. The more times you yo-yo your way in and out of situations like these in the unprofessional manner you do, the harder it's going to be to keep your fanbase. Notice how I didn't use the word "happy" to end that previous sentence. That comment is working as intended, as with these back-and-forths you keep doing...you're pushing people away. And lying to your fanbase makes none of this any better.

You are a company. You are an entity that advertises a product. You should now be acting professional. This isn't professional. It's old.

You're making claims you can't/won't uphold. (Remember when we were told before U14 that we would have fantastic controller support "...out of the box"? I do. It's U16 and that's still not a thing.)

You make hasty decisions with absolutely no planning and even less foresight as to the effects these decisions. (Having any less than 0 is never a good thing.)

The game performs worse and worse with each update released. (Has anyone seen the end of the memory leak? This is a genuine question, as I've not heard whether or not that's been fixed.)

And the problem is, if I were to make all notable examples of each of the situations given, this post simply would not end within a reasonable amount of time. The only promise I recall you upholding to date was the Founder's situation and how Excalibur Prime will never return. At this point, the only reason I know this won't happen is because of legal reasons.

 

For some, this is just a tiny change. Who cares, right?

For many, this is the straw that broke the camel's back.

For all, this should be a concern.

 

Digital Extremes, I beg of-- No, I implore you, please take a moment to look at yourselves, take a look your actions, and think about how each word you type on the forums and each claim you speak on the camera will come back to haunt you. It isn't too late to do so, and it won't be too late for a while. But your game, your masterpiece -- YOUR BABY for Pete's sake. It's hurting. Furthermore, and I'm sorry to say this, but in reference to the title...this is also damaging the integrity of your word. I and MANY upon MANY others have caught you giving claims to which you cannot hold true. It's becoming increasingly difficult to trust you, and I am not the only one who feels the same way. And, honestly? I can't be bought back with the same shtick like last time, because for me, this was the straw to the camel whose back is broken. Despite this, I'll still be keeping up with the game's development in hopes that things do change course.

 

Note: I will edit if something else comes to mind. It's likely what is here is not my final word on the subject, but my stance is firm and unwavering. 

 

TL;DR - In light of recent and not-so-recent events, it's become even more increasingly difficult to trust in Digital Extremes. I genuinely beg of you to retract some of your actions and hold true to your word, because this nonsense is getting out of hand and will eventually be the end of Warframe if this continues. Though, I hope someone actually reads the entirety of this because I've never been good with TL;DRs and it's hard to summarize this wall of text.

 

 

 

EDIT 1: Punctuation, grammar

EDIT 2: SECONDARY DISCLAIMER

Because for some reason I need to clarify... NO. This isn't because of the changes that were made. I repeat, this post is not a thing for the express reason that Excalibur's 4 requires on-screen LoS. I'll reiterate once more -- This, is, not, because, I, now, find, Excalibur, to, be, fairly, useless. One (I suppose technically two, but that's beside the point) of the many reasons this was posted how these changes were made and that the changes were made in a shady manner and against their previous statements. The circumstances of these changes do not justify the means and as already stated...it's entirely unprofessional. If all you're going to do is say "QQ more lmao," then I'll civilly and respectfully ask you right now to please withhold your comment and wait until you have valid contribution. 

I agree with this 200%, but i dont think they'll listen. They havent been listening to us for a very long time. Vivergate taught them nothing obviously.

 

I personally think that just restoring Radial Javelin to before this update, but reducing its range a little would solve alot of problems, but thats just my opinion.

 

I know there are other ideas out there that would solve this problem that the community can think of. Trust me, ive seen tons of awesome ideas in the Forums, but i dont think the Warframe Devs will listen.

[BlizzardMamba]

You know not listening is one thing, but not telling the community who play their alpha (bc. thats how it feels atm) game where they are going with it all, is something else. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by BlizzardMamba

[Kasseopea]

Yeah, but most people will just suck it up and say "well, its still kind of a good game" and play it out of routine.

[Xikiri]

Yeah, but most people will just suck it up and say "well, its still kind of a good game" and play it out of routine.

And that's the worst of it all...the fact that methods like this are accepted as if it's just another thing. It shouldn't be, just as it shouldn't be the same way with larger companies such as Nintendo (for example). A communication barrier is painfully obvious and it needs to be dismantled. 

[Kasseopea]

And that's the worst of it all...the fact that methods like this are accepted as if it's just another thing. It shouldn't be, just as it shouldn't be the same way with larger companies such as Nintendo (for example). A communication barrier is painfully obvious and it needs to be dismantled. 

Personally i only rarely return to the game. It's just not worth it.

[SirDraco]

I wish I didn't agree, but I do. +1

[gnasthunter115]

having played warframe since update 7, it makes me sad to admit that there is a lot more grind being introduced.

[PureMalice]

Gotta agree wholly here man, its really crappy to basically just outright lie after you totally alter the means of enjoyment & entertainment of folks without even a warning, From nullifiers introduction, of which we had NO WARNING or even HINTS that they were coming, to the Excal BS they unleashed again without any indication it was happening and people having to find out their favored frame is now 80% useless and broken just in time for a heavily hyped up content release, and I won't even go into the Chroma "sea dragon"/ ant eater fiasco beyond simply reference the debacle that it was.

I'm getting very disillusioned myself with DE seemingly not being able to stick to something, and make it work, where's the Arch wing content? that anemic little dose of awesome potential only got that half assed event and a few bits no one with more sense than the good meatball lord gave....well.....a meatball would farm for, let alone rank up in the what 3? Missions spots? or is it 4?.

The lore? this is gonna take precedence now? and void removal? why? there's so much more to fix, tweak, add, and alter that its just crazed to think that DE even KNOWS what they want this game to be anymore, just all over the place & without a defined direction.

Now maybe its just the "its in beta so they're just throwing sh!t at the wall and seeing what sticks" kinda thing, which I hope it is, but I gotta say, if this is how this company is going to handle its game at its full fledged release? I'll be very sad to have to leave this game, I quit WoW after 4 years of play because I couldn't stand the constant idiot changes without reason, the class nerfings and alterations no one in their right mind would want, and so forth, I refuse to go through that idiocy again, I can take a little here and there, but too much too quickly, without a modicum of advance warning? I'll just be entertained through alternate mediums with less BS thank you.

[SenpaiWisp]

Heuheuhe farmers, no more dracos. Like old times. You should be happy that they try to balance game and bring some new updates not like Nexon or other crappy ####. Cri more pls

Oh god, Its all so clear to me now, [DE] is following the same path as Maplestory... the question remains... when is the Big Bang?

[Kevlareater]

The devs have access to a community team that they havn't quite learned to communicate with.

 

You always have to remember that incompetence is more likely than malevolence.  (I like that quote and I'm stealing it)

They were competent enough to omit the changes that negatively impact the game from the list of stuff they have mentioned. Incompetence, at this point, is U16 causing people with AMD GPU's to crash to desktop shortly after launching the app. They knew what they were doing in this case, and I'm thinking these changes were very malicious.

[NobleHawk]

Is there any way we can poke the devs until they start actually interacting with the community so we can get the other side   (if there is one) to this story? PM them a thousand times?

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

I read truth. This is good. On one hand I feel bad for DE because I understand that Warframe is a constant work-in-progress. That said, naturally I expect things to change. But as players, it hits hard when you invest in something with forma and reactors only for that something to get nerfed (reactor and 4-5 forma on my excalibur). I see little reason for such changes in a co-op game, especially one with modes that are endless and get harder as time progresses. What is the alternative to not nerfing something? Letting you survive an extra 5-10 minutes in an endless survival? Leave it as is and make other items comparable, to increase diversity.

 

It's good to express opinions and thoughts. And I see evidence that DE does listen to some of it's audience, which is good. But if they start straying from that path, remember that your wallet speaks a whole lot louder than your words. State your dissatisfaction, withhold your money, and see how things change.

 

The founder packs alone are not enough to continue funding this game. They need a constant supply from Prime Access and plat purchases to keep the game going. And for that they have to convince us, the users, that the game is worth supporting. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by (XB1)TrickyDANGER

[MichaelSD]

 

It's good to express opinions and thoughts. And I see evidence that DE does listen to some of it's audience, which is good. But if they start straying from that path, remember that your wallet speaks a whole lot louder than your words. State your dissatisfaction, withhold your money, and see how things change.

 

Trust, I have not bought anything for while now. And having seen U16, I won't in the near future.

[Kasseopea]

Is there any way we can poke the devs until they start actually interacting with the community so we can get the other side   (if there is one) to this story? PM them a thousand times?

You can write to support. If we overload it, they will have to react. However, that would require many people doing it once in a while so the amount flushes them out in the open. They are too much of a coward to come forth on their own.

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

Trust, I have not bought anything for while now. And having seen U16, I won't in the near future.

 

And I don't blame you. Seeing my favorite warframe getting weaker and weaker, I'm just not going to buy more Prime Access until I at least see what their plan is, how the community is, etc. If this game goes south, I will happily go back to my other games. 

[ThePresident777]

Oh god, Its all so clear to me now, [DE] is following the same path as Maplestory... the question remains... when is the Big Bang?

 

Or, they could be heading for a Coolant Flush.

[HyenaGrin]

How?

 

They meganerfed syndicate keys. They halved effective syndicate rep gains and forced players to grind medallions instead. Mesa has the Alad mutalist coordinate grind with extra RNG sauce. The new claw stance is a rare drop from manics. Manics, as far as I can tell, only spawn once per mission outside of raids. (Note I haven't hunted for manics in endless missions yet so this might be in error.) They make more and more new weapons and frames require other weapons to build. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

Like the only counterpoint I can think of is reversing the decision to have Hek gated behind keys. Which to be fair is a good thing. But it's nowhere near enough. That and oxium drop buffs.

 

I know that DE makes dosh off grinding and I don't begrudge them that, but does it really have to be so arduous?

 

They did add rare fusion core packs as rewards in a bunch of places, and dumped 200 rare fusion cores as alerts. The latter being a short-term grind solution, admittedly, but the prior has done some good. They also fixed the dark sector credit bug so it's giving out more credits now.

Though I will say that the economy is definitely balanced in such a way that they don't appear to want people to be able to afford to do a heck of a lot without buying boosters (or play a stupid amount). And part of the problem there is that a lot of the ways to make credits are out of reach for new players. It can be very, very hard to start off in Warframe now because DE appears to be trying to control longtime players' spending, and I think it's hurting the early game more than anything.

Anyway, there's more to be done obviously. I think this thread is way over the top. This Excalibur nerf thing is not a good tipping point to start calling them liars or untrustworthy. Criticism is warranted and we should keep pointing out the places where the game is going off the rails, but y'know. That will always apply to any developer who is actively trying to make money. It's a careful balance, making money and also making a fun game. They are bound to mess up that balance from time to time, and they are more likely to err on the side of keeping the studio in the black, than keeping the game fun at the expense of potentially losing significant amounts of revenue.

Just the nature of the game.