Pvp: Oneshots Don't Belong Competitive Pvp

[rockscl]

 

 

the balance you are suggesting for sure could exist if the matchmaking was fair, but as it is, and as probably it will be matching players for a very long time, this leaves a big room for the current experience, the reality is right here, this system his drawing a meta all around coptering as the basic feature for every other tactic and countermeasure, its all about copter and what to do against copters, which means that the game is about coptering, will we wait for the koreans to show us how to play this the next season or will we shape it into how we actually expected it to be, but with the community we have?

 

according to your point of view, energy and skills are able to outplay copters, currently, that is true, but seems like its not as viable as expected due to rino coptering supremacy

 

idk, DE should host a small official "testing" tournament, that should expose what is actually the current meta in this pvp and give more solid arguments to the entire discussion

Edited March 23, 2015 by rockscl

[Twilight053]

Bows should not onehit. Not if they are uncharged.

[Maiemi]

Rhinos 1ability one hitet :-) and 1 Magazine from grakara and rhinos Iron. Skin Are not down

[Blatantfool]

the balance you are suggesting for sure could exist if the matchmaking was fair, but as it is, and as probably it will be matching players for a very long time, this leaves a big room for the current experience, the reality is right here, this system his drawing a meta all around coptering as the basic feature for every other tactic and countermeasure, its all about copter and what to do against copters, which means that the game is about coptering, will we wait for the koreans to show us how to play this the next season or will we shape it into how we actually expected it to be, but with the community we have?

 

according to your point of view, energy and skills are able to outplay copters, currently, that is true, but seems like its not as viable as expected due to rino coptering supremacy

 

idk, DE should host a small official "testing" tournament, that should expose what is actually the current meta in this pvp and give more solid arguments to the entire discussion

 

 Part of the current trouble is also the fact that Coptering is allowing players to escape certain CC effects. That'll absolutely need to be fixed. It needs to be made certain that all CC effect properly work on players using mobility tools, even unintentional ones like Coptering.

 

 Trust me when I say I am not currently arguing we don't need lots of changes. I'm simply of the opinion that all the pieces are already there waiting to be strung together.

 

this doesnt answer my concern about an energy based mechanics being a counter to just... mechanics

 

the moment you run out of energy and dont have more energy orbs to pick up OR the energy got distributed in a way that gives no party member a reliable CC, you're boned. Or, even worse, you got MMed into a team that has CC abilities that require a lot of energy, and everyone go for that energy pickups just to find out no one has enough E to cast them

 

i would understand this type of mechanic if there were aggressive spawns for one or two party members when enemy has your flag, so you can perform SOME counter play, but there are none - all party members spawn on owned part of the map, always. Right now it turns into a 'hunt enemy ceph carrier before our own dies'

 

also, abilities are often times not as reliable - lets take mag again as an example, as she has a stun on her first ability and is playable atm - if someone is coptering horizontally on your screen, there is no way to land that, you have to setup into a position that will have him coptering in a straight line away from you, but that takes a second, and by the time youre done, he's outta the range OR is going to be as you begin the cast - the time window in which the target has to be in a small aoe cone with a limited range, as well as the window of time that he has to STAY in that aoe until you finish the cast makes the ability really unreliable

 

also, from my experience so far, constantly doing aerial attacks around your base and grabbing the nearest energy spawns just straight up protects you from 3 people coming after your ! and their ceph - facility map is a good example - jump from top platform to bottom right, to top flag, to bottom left, to top platform again and just continue; can chain some copters on basement level if things get hot or towards health orbs in the mid - maybe some former quake pro has the target tracking ability to keep up, but with the current TTK on hitscan weapons id be willing to bet even they would have serious problems. You CAN die to a good ult, but have fun collecting all that 100 energy while your carrier is also under serious heat and both carriers are constantly grabbing energy on their part of the map, and your other party members are also aiming for that 100

 

the current mobility potential versus kill potential is just too uneven, and CC abilities are too unreliable to even consider them counters because of energy requirements or mechanics within those abilities

 

 The reason it's okay, in my opinion, is that it is (or rather, should be) far harder to kill an enemy using Movement mechanics then it is Skills. One-shot melee slide attacks are a current big issue - but it's pretty much common knowledge they need to be nerfed. You aren't going to get a double or triple airdashing. Many frames could get those kills very easily with their 4, some of them maybe even for less energy.

 

 If it were incredibly easy to spam all the skills you needed the issue we suffer in PvP would shift from being centered around fast movement and having trouble defending to the inability to make an approach without getting lucky and clearing the flag defense immediately due to skill spam. So the Energy economy portion of things is necessary. Time will tell us if energy should accumulate slower or something to that effect.

 

 Besides, like I said, it should create a dynamic where the two most important objectives on the mind of each player is "I need to make sure my enemy can't pick up energy." and "I need to capture the Cephalon." - Map control is gameplay we want to see form. It does still needs work though. It's very rough right now. Which is why we need to have changes in this direction come a few at a time so we can feel it out and see if it's right for Conclaves.

 

 You say that right now it's like simply staying on top of your nearest energy port is enough to guard base - good. For the enemy one of the objectives should be to deny you of the ability to do that - by either killing you or grabbing the energy so you can't have it. Trying to waste your energy is also something they can try to do. If you trip your big skill and accomplish nothing you've wasted resources. They, of course, want this. They've got a handful of options for setting it up as well. It'll take time before we see people doing all that proper.

 

 Absolutely needs further love and care though. Which is why it's good we've got so many people that seem to know what the deal is lingering around here and talking about it all.

[KyrosQF]

 But it IS different from a one-shot kill because you aren't dead outright at all. That is a weak conclusion to draw.

 

  I touched on this a bit in another post - it is significant that skills have 'Ammo' in the form of Energy. As long as DE is wise and doesn't involve Energy Efficiency mods in PvP it's fairly easy for that part of the game to work out well.

 

 We can just quickly touch on the different options available to players when dealing with CC skills:

 

- If the skill is a knockdown, there are numerous mods available that either completely eradicate or greatly reduce the downtime you'd suffer. It's reasonable to assume these mods or similar ones will inevitably turn up in PvP. We'll need them.

 

- Energy denial is a powerful concept. You can hog up the energy on the map with your team. This DOES work and CAN turn things around. The enemy is limited in how many times they'll be able to unleash their serious hurt. This opens up a whole new can of worms, with teams not just fighting over the Cephalons, but also over control of the Energy. That is a good thing, it means players can set themselves apart by being better at controlling the match.

 

- Your own skills will often give you interesting answers to some of the more dangerous Enemy skills. Using your energy in order to prevent the efficient use of their energy is also leaving room for players to set themselves apart by simply having the know how to avoid the worst of what the enemy throws at them. For example, Ecalibur's 2 and 4 will render him immune to MPrime if the wave hits you while you're mid-animation. Often enough Radial Blind will also have a chance to snag the Nova trying to MPrime you. But that isn't what is important - for only 50 energy you can avoid a skill that costs them 100. You waste their resources this way.

 

 That aside, slide melee damage needs a nerf. Too stronk.

 

 About your numbered points. I guess I'll give my general opinion on those:

 

1. Adding slows to ranged weapons would be a poor idea. That means any Tenno with a Braton or Strun could just fire randomly hoping for a single connecting hit in order to score the massive, crippling slow. Conclave would become campy since getting the first hit would decide the fight. That'd be an incredibly poor solution and it'd harm Warframe's fast paced gameplay - one of it's serious strengths.

 

2.  We agree on this. CC must be made to work on a coptering player. It's part of creating a balance in conclave by turning skills into the tool meant to combat the high mobility we all have in gameplay..

 

3. Primed mods must not be allowed into Conclave. Not a single one. Leave the power creep for PvE where it can't create a problem. Attack speed mods may also be a mistake, as the faster a melee weapons attack speed the greater the momentum boost from coptering and airdashing. Any Conclave mod effecting attack speed may need to be conclave specific. Berserker might be alright though.

 

You have a point about primed mods, I only mention Primed reach because OTHER primed mods like Primed Fast Hands were allowed.

 

More importantly let me explain something about melee in most shooters and why I draw MY conclusions that you need to buff guns and make them slow the target.

 

---> Melee in most other FPS games results in a one shot. Its actually traditional in a lot of FPS games for melee attacks to one shot. Now why are melee in ALL those games seen as vastly underpowered to the point that melee kills are seen as humiliation? It's because guns vastly outperform melee as they are able to kill targets long before they reach melee range. In most of these games, there's either low enough mobility or higher mobility with slows attached to the weaponry or high mobility and enough splash on weapons to all make them outperform melee. Getting the first shot SHOULD be a large advantage, and stronger guns mean less people whining about melee.

 

---> After DE banned Dual Ether (240 x 1.5 = 360) and Dual Heat Swords (270 x 1.5 = 405) from conclave in 16.0.1, the only weapon capable of dealing incredibly high spin attack damage is the Dual Skana (192 x 1.5 = 288). No one complains about Dual Fang spin attacks (180 x 1.5 = 270) because dual daggers split into 2 attacks (one at the start of the spin and one at the very end of the spin) doing half damage unless the player is in range for the full spin (never happens lol).

 

---> I say make ALL of these melee weapons available and allow the use of Reach. But cap spin attack damage of high spin weapons to (120 x 1.5 = 180) in the conclave only. This means a non-charged attack would do 120 and channeled does 180. This means a "weak" warframe with 100 health and 100 shields and 15 armor will take 100 shield damage and 76 health damage from a channeled attack and 100 shields and 19 health from a non-charged attack. (Weakest warframes will still survive a single hit from a channeled spin attack)

Edited March 23, 2015 by KyrosQF

[Hueminator]

You have a point about primed mods, I only mention Primed reach because OTHER primed mods like Primed Fast Hands were allowed.

 

More importantly let me explain something about melee in most shooters and why I draw MY conclusions that you need to buff guns and make them slow the target.

 

---> Melee in most other FPS games results in a one shot. Its actually traditional in a lot of FPS games for melee attacks to one shot. Now why are melee in ALL those games seen as vastly underpowered to the point that melee kills are seen as humiliation? It's because guns vastly outperform melee as they are able to kill targets long before they reach melee range. In most of these games, there's either low enough mobility or higher mobility with slows attached to the weaponry or high mobility and enough splash on weapons to all make them outperform melee. Getting the first shot SHOULD be a large advantage, and stronger guns mean less people whining about melee.

 

---> After DE banned Dual Ether (240 x 1.5 = 360) and Dual Heat Swords (270 x 1.5 = 405) from conclave in 16.0.1, the only weapon capable of dealing incredibly high spin attack damage is the Dual Skana (192 x 1.5 = 288). No one complains about Dual Fang spin attacks (180 x 1.5 = 270) because dual daggers split into 2 attacks (one at the start of the spin and one at the very end of the spin) doing half damage unless the player is in range for the full spin (never happens lol).

 

---> I say make ALL of these melee weapons available and allow the use of Reach. But cap spin attack damage of high spin weapons to (120 x 1.5 = 180) in the conclave only. This means a non-charged attack would do 120 and channeled does 180. This means a "weak" warframe with 100 health and 100 shields and 15 armor will take 100 shield damage and 76 health damage from a channeled attack and 100 shields and 19 health from a non-charged attack. (Weakest warframes will still survive a single hit from a channeled spin attack)

One reason why most gun don't slow down opponent is because DE remove the type of damage, maybe they should make all gun deal impact damage, and bring back status chance.

 

Capping slide dmg is a good idea +1, it would re-introduce alot more melee weapons.

[rockscl]

I've been using bows for a long time in conclaves. It's not a Marelok that everyone can easily use. Why do you think it's not difficult to use?

the charge time, travel time should give it a advantage of 1 shots.

 

maybe, its because warframe outlines itself closer to moba than to fps, thus, oneshooting seems hard to embrace, in a moba world, paris should hit hard and slow, confuse, blind, dot, whatever, giving the player a chance to retaliate, or be saved by his team

Edited March 23, 2015 by rockscl

[Aggh]

You have a point about primed mods, I only mention Primed reach because OTHER primed mods like Primed Fast Hands were allowed.

 

More importantly let me explain something about melee in most shooters and why I draw MY conclusions that you need to buff guns and make them slow the target.

 

---> Melee in most other FPS games results in a one shot. Its actually traditional in a lot of FPS games for melee attacks to one shot. Now why are melee in ALL those games seen as vastly underpowered to the point that melee kills are seen as humiliation? It's because guns vastly outperform melee as they are able to kill targets long before they reach melee range. In most of these games, there's either low enough mobility or higher mobility with slows attached to the weaponry or high mobility and enough splash on weapons to all make them outperform melee. Getting the first shot SHOULD be a large advantage, and stronger guns mean less people whining about melee.

 

---> After DE banned Dual Ether (240 x 1.5 = 360) and Dual Heat Swords (270 x 1.5 = 405) from conclave in 16.0.1, the only weapon capable of dealing incredibly high spin attack damage is the Dual Skana (192 x 1.5 = 288). No one complains about Dual Fang spin attacks (180 x 1.5 = 270) because dual daggers split into 2 attacks (one at the start of the spin and one at the very end of the spin) doing half damage unless the player is in range for the full spin (never happens lol).

 

---> I say make ALL of these melee weapons available and allow the use of Reach. But cap spin attack damage of high spin weapons to (120 x 1.5 = 180) in the conclave only. This means a non-charged attack would do 120 and channeled does 180. This means a "weak" warframe with 100 health and 100 shields and 15 armor will take 100 shield damage and 76 health damage from a channeled attack and 100 shields and 19 health from a non-charged attack. (Weakest warframes will still survive a single hit from a channeled spin attack)

In cod and battlefield maybe.  But many, many shooters do not have one hit melee attacks.  And in those cases it's because the guns have incredibly low ttks.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Aggh

[KyrosQF]

In cod and battlefield maybe.  But many, many shooters do not have one hit melee attacks.  And in those cases it's because the guns have incredibly low ttks.

 

You are kinda understanding where I'm going with this. In most cases, mobility skyrockets the "Time to kill" of guns to the point they aren't viable.

 

So you have a situation where "knifing someone" is a more viable strat and people complain that "knifing someone" is "too overpowered". When the reality is that guns aren't strong enough.

[Aggh]

You are kinda understanding where I'm going with this. In most cases, mobility skyrockets the "Time to kill" of guns to the point they aren't viable.

 

So you have a situation where "knifing someone" is a more viable strat and people complain that "knifing someone" is "too overpowered". When the reality is that guns aren't strong enough.

TTK generally doesn't take mobility into account.  It's a calculation of the ideal time it takes to kill with a weapon based on the damage and rate of fire vs health of an enemy.  And in this case, guns actually have a pretty reasonable ttk compared to most games.  Melee is pretty clearly too strong right now and decreasing weapon ttk is not a good answer since it will encourage spraying at chest level.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Aggh

[bl4ckhunter]

 

About Skills:

#1 shouldn't ever be able to oneshot;

Aoe #4 Skills should need a long cooldown (2 to 5 minutes?).

About Weapons:

I understand bows have low ammos and need more precision to be used, but thats not a good justification to oneshotting.

Nope, you just need a better ping than your target.

For a balance I'd suggest to reduce the flight time and remove the "oneshot factor".

The main rules are: RISK VS REWARD, BALANCE, CHANCE TO REACT.

Oneshotting shouldn't NEVER be possible or it should have a reliable counterplay or deterrence.

In a PVP Game the outcome of an action should be influenced 50% vs 50% by both players involved.

The skillcap limit must be that 50%. The more you master your abilities the most you can profit of your 50% opportunity.

There shouldn't be a 60-100% in the hands of the aggressor. The victim should have every time 50% chances to react or fighting back.

When there's a starting situation which isn't that 50% vs 50%, there's imbalance.

If you give one player the possibility to oneshot, the upper hand on the 50% chance of action goes to that player. The chance to fail due to circumstances or his own skill is the only factor influencing the outcome of the action. The victim wouldn't have the chance to fight back (if he/she's not provided with immunity to damage defenses -and we know immunities are on the same plane with oneshots, imbalanced-).

This way a skilled player will always have the upper hand on whatever player, be skilled and experienced or not.

Counterplay mechanics: Dodgeable, Parriable*, suffering LOS, Long casting time/Telegraphed+Interruptible.

Deterrence mechanics: Higher costs, Long Cooldown, Influent downsides, Consuming Energy even when interrupted.

*(only when Stamina will become a thing)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PS:

This is not "I just share my experience thread".

Please give a valid motivation if you feel it's legit.

 

You think bows are balanced? Explain with some logic why. Not just "because it needs skill". Give a context. And keep in consideration valid points.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PPS: This is another option to balance the numbers, thanks Amazerath

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/422460-pvp-oneshots-dont-belong-competitive-pvp/page-3#entry4693963

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PPPS: An alternative problem detected during discussions is the Extreme Mobility of players.

 

i disagree on the whole about players survivability, i feel warframe would benefit more from a tribe-ish level survivability, instakills are fine and so are bows, i think that guns should be seriously buffed and what seriously needs a rework is energy distribution, it should be tied to an objective or something that can be contested (killstreaks too maybe)  so that you can prevent enemys from gaining access to abilities rather than nerf abilities that are the very thing that distinguishes warframe, the point is that if they just pointlessly kill you you're going to respawn in half a second anyway so abilities need to be used to preserve objectives and in a tactical way

Edited March 23, 2015 by bl4ckhunter

[Burnthesteak87]

• Reduced the damage of all Paris bows in PvP.

Let's see.

 

[Burnthesteak87]

Now it is Much Much better.

[climatiseur]

Now there is now point in using bows. because using gun is much easier to hit and kill while using bow have to aim and shoot distinctively, and you shoot a much less frequently to do damage that is similar to burst of gunshot. Beside you only have 7 arrows. Being sniper is not quite viable in this mode thus charge attack is really rare.

 

Your opinion just made it imbalanced.

[-Jack.Of.Blades-]

 

-snip-

I agree that it shouldn't 1 shot but as it stands with the current nerf it needs a faster notch back speed to make  a second shot viable.

[Intalus]

Now there is now point in using bows. because using gun is much easier to hit and kill while using bow have to aim and shoot distinctively, and you shoot a much less frequently to do damage that is similar to burst of gunshot. Beside you only have 7 arrows. Being sniper is not quite viable in this mode thus charge attack is really rare.

 

Your opinion just made it imbalanced.

I think faster charge bows should be analogous to what the scout is in CS.  Slower charging bows should still have the potential to one shot as they're less flexible to work with.

 

 

I agree that it shouldn't 1 shot but as it stands with the current nerf it needs a faster notch back speed to make  a second shot viable.

It's viable if you're proficient at aiming.

[Burnthesteak87]

Now there is now point in using bows. because using gun is much easier to hit and kill while using bow have to aim and shoot distinctively, and you shoot a much less frequently to do damage that is similar to burst of gunshot. Beside you only have 7 arrows. Being sniper is not quite viable in this mode thus charge attack is really rare.

 

Your opinion just made it imbalanced.

Totally false. Bows are still really strong weapons and  you can still deal heavy damages and oneshot on headshots (Don't claim it's hard, it just require practice). Consider also that this isn't the last patch they will apply to PVP, for sure there will be changes.

So essentially, give it a try, the PVP after 16.0.4 has less oneshots and feels much more funny.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[onemoonlight]

i like the new patch, auto and semi auto weapons are really strong, headshots just melt and it's finally possible to stop a flag runner

 

bows, on the other hand, are S#&$, and bo prime / lex have funny values when compared to other weapons/variants, but meh

[Aggh]

Now there is now point in using bows. because using gun is much easier to hit and kill while using bow have to aim and shoot distinctively, and you shoot a much less frequently to do damage that is similar to burst of gunshot. Beside you only have 7 arrows. Being sniper is not quite viable in this mode thus charge attack is really rare.

 

Your opinion just made it imbalanced.

All you have to do now is follow up with a partial charge shot after you land the first one (or finish with an ability/secondary).  They're not nearly as bad as people say.  Partial charges still do a lot of damage compared too other weapons to so even just going for those is pretty viable as long as you keep picking up ammo.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Aggh

[onemoonlight]

a good indication if something is bad is just queuing up for few matches and checking what weapons people use, because people will always gravitate towards whats effective and fun, not bad and annoying

 

right now 6-7 people per lobby will be sporting either a lartron variant or a braton variant, and then you'll see some guy running around with a strun

 

boar and gorgon are guns i hardly see, but that may be explained by rarity of the weapons

 

grakata has a bad reputation, so not that many people have one, so this one not popping up too often is also explainable

 

if you see someone with a bow right now it's either a person that didnt read the patch notes, or someone that did read them and wants to test it - every player ive seen with a bow today quit after the first round

[Aggh]

a good indication if something is bad is just queuing up for few matches and checking what weapons people use, because people will always gravitate towards whats effective and fun, not bad and annoying

 

right now 6-7 people per lobby will be sporting either a lartron variant or a braton variant, and then you'll see some guy running around with a strun

 

boar and gorgon are guns i hardly see, but that may be explained by rarity of the weapons

 

grakata has a bad reputation, so not that many people have one, so this one not popping up too often is also explainable

 

if you see someone with a bow right now it's either a person that didnt read the patch notes, or someone that did read them and wants to test it - every player ive seen with a bow today quit after the first round

I've seen plenty of bows in every match.  And you might want to take into consideration that there a lot of client-host issues with pvp atm so a player leaving a match isn't necessarily rage quitting, there's a very good chance that they just DC'd at the end of the match.

[Burnthesteak87]

a good indication if something is bad is just queuing up for few matches and checking what weapons people use, because people will always gravitate towards whats effective and fun, not bad and annoying

 

right now 6-7 people per lobby will be sporting either a lartron variant or a braton variant, and then you'll see some guy running around with a strun

 

boar and gorgon are guns i hardly see, but that may be explained by rarity of the weapons

 

grakata has a bad reputation, so not that many people have one, so this one not popping up too often is also explainable

 

if you see someone with a bow right now it's either a person that didnt read the patch notes, or someone that did read them and wants to test it - every player ive seen with a bow today quit after the first round

I personally discourage these kind of posts. Not only there isn't a stable meta since the mode has been released less than a week ago, but this thread is some sort of a generalistic argument twisted for your own wim.

People are just trying weapons, plus there isn't a reliable reward to justify a competitive attitude to yet see a stable meta.

For sure Bratons now are OP, but that doesn't mean Bows aren't strong.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Burnthesteak87]

Now the problems are:

- Bratons and BoPrimes dealing too much damage.

- #1 deal still to many damages.
- #4 still oneshots with no cooldown restriction.

Solutions:
- Reduce Braton damages. (I don't have old and actual numbers)
- Raise Vitality and Shield ratios + respective Vitality from Orbs.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Aodan]

Most damage in conclave should be capped based on the genre of weapon.

Move weapons into categories and cap them, this way all weapons are side grades apart from function within their given category.

This isn't hard DE, there are tons of sources to draw from in mistakes you are repeating.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Aodan

[Rakshal]

Now the problems are:

- Bratons and BoPrimes dealing too much damage.

- #1 deal still to many damages.

- #4 still oneshots with no cooldown restriction.

Solutions:

- Reduce Braton damages. (I don't have old and actual numbers)

- Raise Vitality and Shield ratios + respective Vitality from Orbs.

The TTK is now fine and you want to make it so we can only kill with abilities and melee again? Why?