Some Status Effects Need A Buff/rework.

[Hixlysss]

Bleed, Toxin DoT, Fire DoT are the ones that I am referring too....Toxin and Fire DoT's need a buff to how they get their damage, they base it off the weapon's base damage, rather than the damage that the shot did, which I'm sure a lot of people would agree should be the case. If my base shots do only 20 damage and I get a fire proc, it does 10 damage per tick, so a total of...70. That looks good on paper...except once you get to the higher level enemies...My gun is doing easily 100 damage per shot and it's still only doing the 10 damage per tick when it should be doing 50. This same idea applies to Toxin.

 

Now Bleed follows the same rule as the other two, 35% of the weapon or power's base damage and applies for 7 ticks. Honestly...that isn't how it should work. What it should do is drain 35% of your health over the course of X seconds, this has the lovely benefit of being very effective late game, and not being OP early game.

 

And that is all...Hopefully the community can get behind this idea so status weapons can be oh so effective late game~ Please <3

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

For the first two, yes.

 

But for your slash proc suggestion, you might as well make endgame slash-only. It seems like a band-aid for broken scaling that will only cause more problems (such as no use for Impact or Puncture weapons).

Edited April 16, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Hixlysss]

For the first two, yes.

 

But for your slash proc suggestion, you might as well make endgame slash-only. It seems like a band-aid for broken scaling that will only cause more problems (such as no use for Impact or Puncture weapons).

Understandable, then at least Slash should at least be tweaked like how I suggested fire and toxin should work, with a buff to it's damage %.

[Hixlysss]

Wow, I was honestly hoping this would get more feedback and comments...

[gam3addict]

Bleed strikes me as a status effect DE put in to help enemies chip down Tenno over time, so if it did the massive damage you suggested Grineer would be the ultimate faction instantly. Moreover, toxic and bleed are waaaay too similar and have been since Damage 2.0, bleed should do something different like no damage while shields are up but larger amounts of damage if it hits when shields are down. Just a thought, but just straight buffing bleed would be a terrible, terrible idea.

I would love a buff for the damage status effects and magnetic damage. DoT is laughably useless for all but niche builds and groups because of the Tenno's flatly ridiculous damage output.

[Grom-84]

I'd like to see blast spreading additionall effect depending on which third mod is installed, like Blast + toxic = toxin blast, or Blast + Electric = Emp blast lowering the shields.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I agree the "DoT" effects should be based on damage proc and not base damage.

Edit: Although this shows DoT not being base damage

This would allow IPS weapons to be more versatile with Factions. (Granted most weapons Overkill from just the raw damage number)

I feel Impact Status effect needs the most attention: I proposed Grounded "status" mainly for flyng/aerial targets (Archwing could be a movement disable like when Rollers get stunned in place.)

Magnetic- I agree should have a slight buff...or Alloy Armor could be stripped of Armor protection with Magnetic and Corrosive would only remove Armor protection of Ferrite Armor...

(Never been a Fan of Corrosive removes all Armor blanket Umbrella-like)

**Granted against Tenno(Warframes) Magnetic would become OP**

Damage 2.5 perhaps

Edited April 17, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Zero.No.Hikari]

The thing is our enemies have the same proc we do. Kinda why a late game grineer butcher can kill a high armor chroma or Valkyrie. Slash profs ignore armor and are based off damage. I've seen my chroma drop from 100-0 because I got a slash proc through my shields.

For me a good rework would be

Toxin: deals same DoT but only if shields are down if they are up its diminished, the high the health the quicker but weaker drain while lower hp has a slower more damaging drain which means if you get hit at low hp it can kill you but full hp doesn't hurt too much.

Fire: the stun stays but opens up finisher prompt, also has a small chance to blind or lower armor

Ice: freezes slightly causing slower movement and fire/reload rate. Chance to insta freeze (1-2%)

Lightning: keep it as is but also overcharges shields causing some damage disabling them for a moment but doesn't drain EN

Blast: this one is good maybe pushes them back, slight rag doll.

Radiation: this one is good, just maybe higher damage to allies

Gas: leaves a cloud that lower accuracy along with the toxin style DoT

Viral: this one was well done. Nuff said

Corrosive: seems toxin combos are done well. Maybe lower weapon damage due to corroded weaponry and armor (only grineer though)

Magnetic: I said this before and will say it again, magnetizes metals allowing for ballistics to home slightly maybe even return fire granted this would only work on grineer but hey helps mag be useful.

Puncture: proc gives you slight punch through along with staggering slightly

Impact: stuns the enemy and us for a short duration. Longer stun based on status duration

Slash: no longer bypasses shields. Deals mor damage depending on HP and armor. Armor slows the bleed but still deals the same damage meaning it'll deal same damage overall but the drain will be slower.

Those are my thoughts on how they could be reworked. Though they'd need better more concise tweaks.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Zero.No.Hikari

[RealPandemonium]

Edit: Although this shows DoT not being base damage

It is based on base damage in that picture.  It's his dread's base damage after Serration and Heavy Caliber * .35 * crit multiplier * 2[headshot bonus] * 2[critical headshot bonus] * 2[status headshot bonus].  Not sure if that was two arrows or not; it's probably only the red crit one causing the proc.  You can easily attain that kind of damage on one arrow if you have critical damage mods and some ranks in Heavy Caliber equipped.  

[yles9056]

I agree that status DoT does not help you kill enemy most of the time even slash proc because of the way they calculate damage.

 

The only weapon that is capable of dealing considerable amount of status DoT is Dread. That's because it has high crit chance, crit damage, and lots of armor ignore slash proc. Other slash weapon like Miter can't do that much damage on slash proc

 

So I would suggest to add a new weapon stat: "status damage" which boost your status effect damage depending on the weapon you are using.

 

Weapon that should have higher status damage:

-Miter

-Acrid

-Flux Rifle

-Embolist

-etc...

(Some powerful weapon should have default status damage)

Edited April 17, 2015 by yles9056

[TheGrimCorsair]

The Good:

 

Viral, Corrosive, Radiation, Electric, Blast, and Cold are all pretty solid right now, and left untouched, would all remain solid, nearly universally useful, procs.

 

The Not Bad but May Need Some Improvements:

Fire is pretty great when you can catch a target between "locked" animations, as the flail turns them into a sitting duck. Also great for Ember thanks to her Accelerant ability, doubly so in a team with lots of Corrosive Projections (at least when fighting Grineer and Void enemies). The DoT would definitely be better off scaling off of total weapon damage, if it doesn't already.

Impact is pretty solid for chain stunning on fast firing weapons with Punch Through and good status chance, but should be able to interrupt animations more reliably.

 

Gas, a bit like Electric procs, it has an AoE component, though not the CC component. The (quite beefy) Toxin damage it does allows you to soften up and kill enemies very, very quickly via proc finishing with punch through weapons with good status chance, especially effective against clustered up Ferrite-armored enemies, and shielded enemies. Pretty handy against the Infested when they're swarming, to boot, as a way of augmenting your damage. Outside of places where enemies are clustered up, it's not very good, and enemies that are highly resistant to Toxin damage or have very large HP pools, just don't really care all that much about these procs. Accuracy decay would be a nice feature here, I think.

 

The Bad:

Slash is good on extremely high damage weapons, but currently, Dread aside (and special mention to Ash's Shurikens and Blade Storm), most weapons don't do enough damage outright, or have high enough status chance and bias towards Slash procs when they *do* have the damage, to make this particularly good. Despite its powerful function of doing finisher damage, it's really niche and mostly goes unnoticed in effect most of the time.

Puncture's 30% reduction in damage is not terribly useful most of the time given the attack rates we're usually faced with, and the fact that most of the damage we face comes from weight of fire, rather than the damage of a lone enemy. In some games, many MMO's, such a damage reduction would play a huge factor in one's chances of survival. Here? Not so much.

Toxin is a DoT. Literally. That's it. Like Fire, it's damage is reduced by enemy Armor. It hase bonus damage against Ferrite, thus, boosted against 3/4th's of Grineer Void enemies, and about half the Grineer mob list. The damage it deals bypasses shields. Here's the kicker though, bonus or no, the damage awful. Individually we all do so much damage (when geared for what we're fighting) that its DoT is a waste. Unlike Fire, there's no CC component. Unlike Slash, you still  have to deal with damage reduction from armor when it's present. To add insult to injury, Toxin DAMAGE (as distinct from the proc), already bypasses shields and will happily murder the hell out of enemies with big shields just by shooting them more. It desparately needs some kind of CC feature, as well as its DoT strength increased (quite dramatically if its going to retain a lack of CC).

 

Magnetic. Is. Bad. Full stop. Do not pass go. Do not collect 100 ducats. It's awful. The shield reduction proc rarely amounts to a useful decrease in TTK relative to other procs and is worthless for unshielded enemies. Power drain does not matter against the enemies we fight (or if it does, it's so infrequent and/or difficult to register that it may as well not). The blurry screen does nothing to enemy mobs. In effect, this is a proc designed specifically for use *against* players, and that's it. It needs to have some sort of effect beyond shield capacity reduction.

[The_Diabetes]

Bleed and Fire dot both work on dmg done, not sure what op is talking about. Bleed damage is based off total slash damage and fire dot off total fire damage. If you want a higher proc scale the damage higher with mods.

[RealPandemonium]

Bleed and Fire dot both work on dmg done, not sure what op is talking about. Bleed damage is based off total slash damage and fire dot off total fire damage. If you want a higher proc scale the damage higher with mods.

No, it's based entirely on base damage.  Adding more elemental or IPS mods will not increase proc damage.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

It is based on base damage in that picture. It's his dread's base damage after Serration and Heavy Caliber * .35 * crit multiplier * 2[headshot bonus] * 2[critical headshot bonus] * 2[status headshot bonus]. Not sure if that was two arrows or not; it's probably only the red crit one causing the proc. You can easily attain that kind of damage on one arrow if you have critical damage mods and some ranks in Heavy Caliber equipped.

But how is 35% of the base UI stat not damage doing a 23k bleed tick, as described in the first post of this thread.

Where ticks are based on base stat and not damage dealt...

His shot did a Slash damage of 3900 assuming mitigated by armor and the resulting Bleed Proc was 23,788

The Slash damage was 3900

Bleed damage was 23,788

How can the Bleed Proc be 23,788 if it is 35% of UI base damage even if you include Headshot Red Critical.

I'd like to see the math that shows how the base Bleed proc on a headshot is always 23,788.

I've had 478 bleed procs from Obex and Spectra....I assumed was from combo multiplier and other melee variants

Spectra I assumed may be different because of how Continuous weapons proc per second... I assume they may add all landed hits together for the 1 sec to accumulate the proc strength. Rather than just 1 of the continuous beam projectiles being used to calculate the proc strength.

Edited April 18, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[The_Diabetes]

No, it's based entirely on base damage.  Adding more elemental or IPS mods will not increase proc damage.

 

it has nothing to do with base damage. My boltor prime doesn't have any base fire dmg. It procs fire damage from the mods I put on the weapon. The total fire damage I do per shot is where the burning tick gets its damage from. I've seen the dot tick for 170-200+

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The thing is our enemies have the same proc we do.

This is easily solvable though. Besides, enemies do not have the same procs we do all the time (Corrosive, Impact), and some of them shouldn't exist for certain enemies at all (slash on hitscan fire enemies, for example).

[ShardsSuperior]

Mmmm... I think Corrosive should be tweaked so that it has SOME effect on non-armored enemies.

 

Perhaps a DoT. Nothing special, just a bit of something that makes it not useless to proc against Infested and Corpus.

[RealPandemonium]

 

it has nothing to do with base damage. My boltor prime doesn't have any base fire dmg. It procs fire damage from the mods I put on the weapon. The total fire damage I do per shot is where the burning tick gets its damage from. I've seen the dot tick for 170-200+

A heat proc will deal heat damage but the damage tick value is 50% of your base damage (after base damage mods like Serration and Heavy Caliber,) or 200% of your base damage if it procs on a headshot.

 

 

But how is 35% of the base UI stat not damage doing a 23k bleed tick, as described in the first post of this thread.

Where ticks are based on base stat and not damage dealt...

His shot did a Slash damage of 3900 assuming mitigated by armor and the resulting Bleed Proc was 23,788

The Slash damage was 3900
Bleed damage was 23,788

How can the Bleed Proc be 23,788 if it is 35% of UI base damage even if you include Headshot Red Critical.

I'd like to see the math that shows how the base Bleed proc on a headshot is always 23,788.

I've had 478 bleed procs from Obex and Spectra....I assumed was from combo multiplier and other melee variants

Spectra I assumed may be different because of how Continuous weapons proc per second... I assume they may add all landed hits together for the 1 sec to accumulate the proc strength. Rather than just 1 of the continuous beam projectiles being used to calculate the proc strength.

 

Here is a test case.  Assume this build: http://goo.gl/H8CaqJ  Make sure to toggle the display to show Charged shot damage.  Also be sure to uncheck the critical box to get the true base damage and not the average damage with criticals factored in.

 

Base damage is 860 when the bow is charged (in this case total damage = base damage because there are no elemental or IPS mods equipped.)

 

When you get a critical hit (you will always get at least a yellow critical because the critical chance is >100%) on any part of the body besides the head, the damage will be 860 * 5.6 = 4816.  

 

Red crits double the bonus damage gained from critically striking, effectively adding another critical modifier minus 1 (so a critical modifier of 1.5 would give .5x extra damage on a red crit, for example.) On a red crit bodyshot you will deal 860 * 5.6 + 860 * 4.6  = 8772 damage.  

 

Now, let's assume we get a headshot.  Headshots grant a x2 damage multiplier.  Critical headshots get a further x2 multiplier, for a total of x4: 4816 * 4 = 19264 damage.  A red crit headshot is 8772 * 4 = 35088 damage.

 

Now let's calculate the proc damage.  Slash procs deal .35x the base damage of the weapon as Finisher damage (Finisher damage ignores all health type modifiers and ignores shields and armor as well) seven times over 6 seconds.  The first damage tick happens immediately when the proc occurs and the other 6 ticks occur once per second over the next 6 seconds.  

 

On a body shot regular crit Slash procs will deal 4816 * .35 = 1685.6 damage per tick.  Red crit bodyshot Slash proc will deal 8772 * .35 = 3070.2 damage per tick.

 

A little-known fact: Procs that deal damage that occur on headshots get an extra x2 multiplier to their damage, similar to critical headshots.  This stacks multiplicatively with the standard headshot bonus and the critical headshot bonus, to a total of x2 * x2 * x2 = x8 damage.  A regular crit headshot that procs Slash will deal 4816 * 8 * .35 = 13484.8 damage per tick.  A red crit headshot that procs Slash will deal 8772 * 8 * .35 =  24561.6 damage per tick.  Over 7 ticks that proc will deal 171931.2 damage in total.  Pretty impressive, huh?  If you equip Split Chamber you have two chances to do this with each shot!  This build would maximize your rate of red crit procs, though it would have poor damage output and require consistent headshots to be remotely effective : http://goo.gl/9cSG9u

 

Let me know if you guys find any flaws with this post.

Edited April 19, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[yles9056]

it has nothing to do with base damage. My boltor prime doesn't have any base fire dmg. It procs fire damage from the mods I put on the weapon. The total fire damage I do per shot is where the burning tick gets its damage from. I've seen the dot tick for 170-200+

 

To be more specific: each tick of heat DoT deals 50% of Boltor Prime's "total base damage". It doesn't matter what type of base damage it is. Which means 50% of Boltor Prime's base puncture and impact damage will be converted to heat DoT.

[The_Diabetes]

To be more specific: each tick of heat DoT deals 50% of Boltor Prime's "total base damage". It doesn't matter what type of base damage it is. Which means 50% of Boltor Prime's base puncture and impact damage will be converted to heat DoT.

 

Thanks for this explanation. This matches up with the numbers I'm getting.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

A heat proc will deal heat damage but the damage tick value is 50% of your base damage (after base damage mods like Serration and Heavy Caliber,) or 200% of your base damage if it procs on a headshot.

 

 

 

Here is a test case.  Assume this build: http://goo.gl/H8CaqJ  Make sure to toggle the display to show Charged shot damage.  Also be sure to uncheck the critical box to get the true base damage and not the average damage with criticals factored in.

 

Base damage is 860 when the bow is charged (in this case total damage = base damage because there are no elemental or IPS mods equipped.)

 

When you get a critical hit (you will always get at least a yellow critical because the critical chance is >100%) on any part of the body besides the head, the damage will be 860 * 5.6 = 4816.  

 

Red crits double the bonus damage gained from critically striking, effectively adding another critical modifier minus 1 (so a critical modifier of 1.5 would give .5x extra damage on a red crit, for example.) On a red crit bodyshot you will deal 860 * 5.6 + 860 * 4.6  = 8772 damage.  

 

Now, let's assume we get a headshot.  Headshots grant a x2 damage multiplier.  Critical headshots get a further x2 multiplier, for a total of x4: 4816 * 4 = 19264 damage.  A red crit headshot is 8772 * 4 = 35088 damage.

 

Now let's calculate the proc damage.  Slash procs deal .35x the base damage of the weapon as Finisher damage (Finisher damage ignores all health type modifiers and ignores shields and armor as well) seven times over 6 seconds.  The first damage tick happens immediately when the proc occurs and the other 6 ticks occur once per second over the next 6 seconds.  

 

On a body shot regular crit Slash procs will deal 4816 * .35 = 1685.6 damage per tick.  Red crit bodyshot Slash proc will deal 8772 * .35 = 3070.2 damage per tick.

 

A little-known fact: Procs that deal damage that occur on headshots get an extra x2 multiplier to their damage, similar to critical headshots.  This stacks multiplicatively with the standard headshot bonus and the critical headshot bonus, to a total of x2 * x2 * x2 = x8 damage.  A regular crit headshot that procs Slash will deal 4816 * 8 * .35 = 13484.8 damage per tick.  A red crit headshot that procs Slash will deal 8772 * 8 * .35 =  24561.6 damage per tick.  Over 7 ticks that proc will deal 171931.2 damage in total.  Pretty impressive, huh?  If you equip Split Chamber you have two chances to do this with each shot!  This build would maximize your rate of red crit procs, though it would have poor damage output and require consistent headshots to be remotely effective : http://goo.gl/9cSG9u

 

Let me know if you guys find any flaws with this post.

Thank you that math makes sense.

So Base damage * Critical * Headshot * Multiplier

That makes more sense than just 35% of base UI damage.

In regards to Continuous Weapons does it only use 1 projectile for the DoT or does it calculate Proc as projectiles per/sec.

Example Synoid if it had a Heat Build would the Heat proc have been stronger with 210 base and 2.0 fire-rate or is it the same with 28base and 15.0 fire-rate since procs are per/second instead of status per projectile chance?

[Hixlysss]

Wowza, two pages. GLad to see the discussion going on like this.

[Otaiken]

Hmm fire is mostly crowd control proc for me. The stun is much more useful than the damage. Toxin damage is rather weak, but the base damage bypasses shields which is nice.

 

That presents a good question though, should the proc strength be balanced against the overall usefulness of the damage type? Question for another time maybe.

 

Blast is pretty bad imho. It's awful on guns as knocking enemies down just makes it harder to finish them unless you have the opportunity to walk over them for finisher (whcih in any situation that you would need blast CC you do not). And on many melee weapons ground attack is a liability compared to simple E spam.

 

Slash is better than you make it out OP. The damage it does is pretty significant and most of all slash procs stack. So with automatic status weapon (like Braton Prime for example) those can add up quick. Only recently I got into the habit of starting off on heavy enemy and then taking cover and reloading while it dies to the slash proc.

 

What I think we need is a proc dmg (or magnitude) strength mod, that could present some nice builds as long as you make the stats decent. Or make it a weapon stat in general, certain weapons could simply get a proc boost... beam weapons come to mind.

 

But Toxin proc might need something more to it. Fire stuns and slash does more damage (as far as I know) and you don't have to add elemental for it (on most weapons), not to mention that to get toxin you need to sacrifice some damage as you can't stack it into elemental combo. I'm thinking damage or accuracy debuff.

Edited April 19, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[RealPandemonium]

In regards to Continuous Weapons does it only use 1 projectile for the DoT or does it calculate Proc as projectiles per/sec.

Example Synoid if it had a Heat Build would the Heat proc have been stronger with 210 base and 2.0 fire-rate or is it the same with 28base and 15.0 fire-rate since procs are per/second instead of status per projectile chance?

Will test this now.  My guess is that it uses the base damage component of whatever number comes up when the proc occurs.  

Edited April 19, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[taiiat]

something i wrote up not too long ago.

it would certainly be nice of Status Damage was more viable. there are no reasonable situations where Status Damage is more efficient or effective than just Damage.

Weapons that deal great Status Damage all generally have not that great Damage. it would be swell if that was more viable to use.

- - - - -

furthermore, there is no way to have Status that isn't meh without adding lots of Elementals.

why don't the base Status Mods (Rifle Aptitide, Sure Shot, and Melee Prowess) add +100% Status.

then you could atleast have decent Status without being forced to add more Damage Types.

- - - - -

lastly, some Status is not useful, and some are sketchy.

Impact, Magnetic, and Gas are very difficult to justify. Impact actually canceling CC (and being a poor Damage Type but that's a different matter), Magnetic just not being useful at all, and Gas being far too impractical to actually group hit with it's not so impressive Range.

and then some that are sketchy - Fire and Electricity Stunning is not reliable. Enemies can use Animation Lock to ignore the Stuns whenever they feel like it. some Warframes and Weapons even COMPLETELY rely on these Stuns as a part of their balance metrics, yet it's not reliable, meaning they can just randomly die.

and then there's some minor :( times. Corrosive on an Enemy without Armor, Magnetic on an Enemy without Shields, and Stuns when an Enemy is already CC'd in some fashion - all leave something to be desired.

i would really like of Corrosive and Magnetic had something that was useful regardless of situation. not changing what they do now necessarily, but against different Enemy situations, still bringing something useful to the table Status wise.

and Stuns... maybe stacking, maybe chaining/queuing, or something else.

the only extra note i'm going to make, is that Toxin and Slash as they stand, MUST ignore Shields on Status.

it's all they do. it's all they're good for.

"but Slash Kills me too much" - that's what it's job is for. to make Health MATTER. Toxin makes Health MATTER.

otherwise we're still back to the 'only use Shields because it's better than Health' scenario we were at for a year and some change.

we have to have some things that hit Health and not Shields, to make Health something that matters at all.

this cannot change due to how the game is currently built.