The 'tenno Are Energy' Theory Is Busted

[SilverBones]

Again, apologies.

 

To the Derelict in penance I go!

 

Expect Juggernauts to be waiting for you.

 

...not that I control them or anything... <_<

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Expect Juggernauts to be waiting for you.

 

...not that I control them or anything... <_<

SilverBones leads the black seeds or whatever they're called. O.o 

 

That hasn't hit console yet, so I might be completely wrong with the name xP

[Jakcal]

Pssssh I'll believe in poly Tenno until I'm dead.

We ain't no nasty shape shifting meaty stuff.

And I just don't like the energy theory because it doesn't make any sense.

/Sarcasm after all my posts now

[(PSN)EnderTuretsky]

Really long thread, and I haven't been playing as much or reading forums as actively, but I find this topic very interesting.

 

I still believe the Tenno are consciousnesses / souls inhabiting the organic bodies called Warframes.

 

The Warframe bleeds and breathes to survive. It has a brain to control lower functions, just like our human bodies do. It does not have a consciousness / soul.

 

Tenno, once humans with physical bodies, but now only consciousnesses / souls, were separated from their bodies at some point and are stored in the same way you could store an AI or program. They can inhabit the organic bodies of armor and abilities known as Warframes by being loaded into the Warframe's brain. They are still essentially human souls / consciousnesses. I do not believe there is some space inside the Warframe that a physical being's body inhabits, like a traditional suit of armor. 

 

Of course the Tenno can make the frame smile while inhabiting it, just like we can make our bodies / faces smile. And yes, the suit bleeds and breathes to survive. It is a living organism based on a humanoid body. It has a heart and lungs.

 

Are we, in the real world, our physical bodies, or are we our consciousnesses / souls? Could we, in the future, through technology, separate the consciousness from the body? Could we manufacture or grow enhanced bodies to put our consciousnesses into?

 

If this is the same as the energy being theory, then that's the side I'm on, and I would say, from what I've read and seen in the game, it has not been disproved in the slightest. I personally wouldn't refer to the consciousness or soul as an energy being. Is the energy being theory the same thing as what I described here?

Edited June 18, 2015 by (PS4)EnderTuretsky

[vaugahn]

I'm actually just seeing that for the first time myself. Can't say I understand how it works.

 

It's been a long time since I've seen or read anything Guyver, but I seem to recall there being some talk of "extra" organs and biomass and what not being stored in a different dimension while the transformation was going on.

[Blakrana]

Expect Juggernauts to be waiting for you.

 

...not that I control them or anything... <_<

 

To be fair, it'd be kind of cool if you got to have a Juggernaut spectre, considering you made the initial concept.

 

Still...as for actual Juggernauts, they really have a lax approach to spawning I've found. Took a really long Hive (I hate Eris Hive runs) mission before it finally tried murdering me. And it succeeded about three times.

 

At least they're kinda cute, like the Maggot.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

-snip-

The one thing turning me away from the consciousness/soul theory, is what would we be like out of the Warframes?

 

Like a Force ghost, or what?

[(PSN)EnderTuretsky]

The one thing turning me away from the consciousness/soul theory, is what would we be like out of the Warframes?

 

Like a Force ghost, or what?

 

The Tenno outside of a frame would be stored as data, like you would store an AI. Essentially a consciousness converted into an AI. I only say soul because many believe that our consciousness is equivalent to our soul. So outside of a frame, the Tenno would be without form. However you personally visualize a soul, or an AI, that is what it would be. There's not really a visual element, but if you want to visualize it in your mind as a Force ghost, that's up to you.

[Morec0]

The one thing turning me away from the consciousness/soul theory, is what would we be like out of the Warframes?

 

Like a Force ghost, or what?

 

Imo: they don't. We have to from body to body, they have no "in between ghostly form outside of a frame" - hence why Vor getting his hands on us is so bad and would resulting in "losing another Tenno".

Edited June 19, 2015 by Morec0

[Tricky5hift]

If Tenno are truly made of energy, then why hasn't Draco turned into a smoking crater filled with GMags, Mesas and Nekros?

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

The Tenno outside of a frame would be stored as data, like you would store an AI. Essentially a consciousness converted into an AI. I only say soul because many believe that our consciousness is equivalent to our soul. So outside of a frame, the Tenno would be without form. However you personally visualize a soul, or an AI, that is what it would be. There's not really a visual element, but if you want to visualize it in your mind as a Force ghost, that's up to you.

What about a Cortana type thing? She can pop out of her chip and walk around.

 

This still makes minimal sense to me.

[Thaeminus]

With 75 pages of text, Im sure someone has already said this, but in case nobody has;

 

I believe the theory isn't that there is a disembodied, specific amount of energy inside hollow suits, but that we, the Tenno, are a disembodied consciousness controlling the bodies in the suits that lack a consciousness themselves. This makes sense, from a gameplay standpoint, being able to switch seamlessly between multiple Warframes of differing genders and bodytypes, and the bosses that refer to you by name call you the same name no matter what Frame you're in. 

 

I personally don't like this theory though, and it has a massive hole with the existence of Valkyr. I like the thought that each Warframe you have has its own Tenno inside, and that you, as the player, in your choices, really represent the collected choices and decisions of the Tenno in your account. 

[arch111]

look if we are remotecntrolling warframes that makes 0 sense when dealing with the Harvester/Vor/G3.

If we are energy that just ghosts on back to the Liset when we fail a mission, then where is the danger?

It would make sense if we died if the warframe was destroyed.

But game mechanics ...

[SilentMobius]

Ah, bollocks. Can you throw me a quick link? Ah, found it. My bad there. Still, there seems to be a weird way of talking about the Warframes that puts them above something other than "suits of armor" - "control", and "occupy", rather than wear. And there's still the matter of the creature in the RPC.

 

Oh I agree. Hmm, here's a thought:

 

Ever since the Ember codex many of us have had this base assumption that that "personality" of a specific class of Warframe has somehow come from a currently unspecified "progenitor" Tenno (I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

 

But...

 

What if that's not the case at all, what if the "personality" of a Warframe is actually based on the nature of a specific Technocyte "beast" created by the Orokin.

 

EG:

 

Rhino: Literally the creature from the Rhino Prime Codex Entry

Ember: A chicken-legged creature that emitted a flammable material, and reveled in the conflagration.

Mag: A bubble-headed creature that emitted an EMP, gently nodding to the ambient sounds of the local EM field.

Banshee: A screaming deformed horror with an elongated "alien"-like head.

 

Etc Etc.

 

Then we have Davis and his friend coming along and finding out that the Zariman children can calm and dominate these creatures. Even to the extent of them essentially being one being. Now the Orokin understand the Technocyte material (Devs hinted that Morphics and thus Forma are actually a refinement of the "living metal" that the DS-style technocyte virus produced in that story) and can attach their hard-tech directly to it so we have a self-repairing, living material that can stabilize the children and act as a repository and transformer for Orokin Battle tech.

 

So these creatures end up being gutted, refined and layered onto a metal frame, Potentially the frame had safeguards that prevent the skin-creature from acting without a Tenno. (Safeguards that can be disabled, a-la Mesa and Chroma)

 

My point is that perhaps "Rhino" (E.G.) is the personality of a base creature, not of a Tenno Hence why The Warframes are explicitly referred to as "beings" using gendered pronouns, Etc.

 

Sure, the Ember codex still applies and some Tenno do exhibit explicit powers (Assuming the Zariman children did, indeed, become Tenno) and perhaps there are specific Tenno who helped "dominating" the material in the Warframe into a specific shape/state just for them. Or perhaps the Orokin kept creating creatures until they found ones that seemed to be sympathetic with the first batch of void-touched-children they had. But regardless of the finer detail what I'm suggesting is:

 

What if the personality of a Warframe is part of the creature dismembered/used as raw materials to make it _not_ a creation of some progenitor Tenno, does that not solve the story personification of the Warframes?

Edited June 19, 2015 by SilentMobius

[arch111]

Hmm well Silent, you have a point there and it basically follows what Morec0 theorized about the warframes being crafted from technocyte.

I however have an addition. Why not both?

After the Zariman they found a way to control the beasts and use them as biosoldiers. It is not the Zariman returnees that they used, rather the gholems possibly with the Corrupted control-devices.

I think these were the result of cloning the zariman-children and they became the gholems / OR they were used to somehow control the gholems.

Why do I say that?

Well, Excalibur codex states they built a warframe around the few who had returned. Only in the eleventh hour did they do this.

That can only mean one thing. There were others before Excalibur. Lephantis is very old. So is the infested.

What if the Orokin used these proto-warframes to rise to power? Only much later did the Tenno become neccesary.

[Morec0]

Oh I agree. Hmm, here's a thought:

 

Ever since the Ember codex many of us have had this base assumption that that "personality" of a specific class of Warframe has somehow come from a currently unspecified "progenitor" Tenno (I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

 

But...

 

What if that's not the case at all, what if the "personality" of a Warframe is actually based on the nature of a specific Technocyte "beast" created by the Orokin.

 

EG:

 

Rhino: Literally the creature from the Rhino Prime Codex Entry

Ember: A chicken-legged creature that emitted a flammable material, and reveled in the conflagration.

Mag: A bubble-headed creature that emitted an EMP, gently nodding to the ambient sounds of the local EM field.

Banshee: A screaming deformed horror with an elongated "alien"-like head.

 

Etc Etc.

 

Then we have Davis and his friend coming along and finding out that the Zariman children can calm and dominate these creatures. Even to the extent of them essentially being one being. Now the Orokin understand the Technocyte material (Devs hinted that Morphics and thus Forma are actually a refinement of the "living metal" that the DS-style technocyte virus produced in that story) and can attach their hard-tech directly to it so we have a self-repairing, living material that can stabilize the children and act as a repository and transformer for Orokin Battle tech.

 

So these creatures end up being gutted, refined and layered onto a metal frame, Potentially the frame had safeguards that prevent the skin-creature from acting without a Tenno. (Safeguards that can be disabled, a-la Mesa and Chroma)

 

My point is that perhaps "Rhino" (E.G.) is the personality of a base creature, not of a Tenno Hence why The Warframes are explicitly referred to as "beings" using gendered pronouns, Etc.

 

Sure, the Ember codex still applies and some Tenno do exhibit explicit powers (Assuming the Zariman children did, indeed, become Tenno) and perhaps there are specific Tenno who helped "dominating" the material in the Warframe into a specific shape/state just for them. Or perhaps the Orokin kept creating creatures until they found ones that seemed to be sympathetic with the first batch of void-touched-children they had. But regardless of the finer detail what I'm suggesting is:

 

What if the personality of a Warframe is part of the creature dismembered/used as raw materials to make it _not_ a creation of some progenitor Tenno, does that not solve the story personification of the Warframes?

 

This has been what I've been saying forever now - the personality of the Warframe IS the personality of the Warframe bleeding into the Tenno that's "occupying" it.

 

Of course, rather than being some "creature" used to make a Warframe, I think it was a person. Some unfortunate lower-citizen of the Empire, doomed to become an experiment, its later variations coming with the "ancestral memory" of what happened to it... Some unfortunate citizen, perhaps, like Kaleen?

 

And I'm still of the mind that what we have in the Ember Codex is Kaleen being burned by raw Void energy (sort of like you pressing your face up against an exposed nuclear reactor) and not ACTUAL fire.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Morec0

[Blakrana]

The one thing turning me away from the consciousness/soul theory, is what would we be like out of the Warframes?

 

Like a Force ghost, or what?

 

On the grounds of a pure consciousness, form is only retained within a body, no intermittent form between frames.

 

The only other possible one I've considered (least in a fic I did) was a sort of Liset/Dojo artificial reality to house a Tenno if they lack a Warframe or just need rest away from the battlefield.

 

Kind of like the Simulacrum, in a way, but more...amenable. The orange walls are ok, but hardly suitable for meditation or relaxation, after all.

 

Oh I agree. Hmm, here's a thought:

 

Ever since the Ember codex many of us have had this base assumption that that "personality" of a specific class of Warframe has somehow come from a currently unspecified "progenitor" Tenno (I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

 

But...

 

What if that's not the case at all, what if the "personality" of a Warframe is actually based on the nature of a specific Technocyte "beast" created by the Orokin.

 

EG:

 

Rhino: Literally the creature from the Rhino Prime Codex Entry

Ember: A chicken-legged creature that emitted a flammable material, and reveled in the conflagration.

Mag: A bubble-headed creature that emitted an EMP, gently nodding to the ambient sounds of the local EM field.

Banshee: A screaming deformed horror with an elongated "alien"-like head.

 

Etc Etc.

 

Then we have Davis and his friend coming along and finding out that the Zariman children can calm and dominate these creatures. Even to the extent of them essentially being one being. Now the Orokin understand the Technocyte material (Devs hinted that Morphics and thus Forma are actually a refinement of the "living metal" that the DS-style technocyte virus produced in that story) and can attach their hard-tech directly to it so we have a self-repairing, living material that can stabilize the children and act as a repository and transformer for Orokin Battle tech.

 

So these creatures end up being gutted, refined and layered onto a metal frame, Potentially the frame had safeguards that prevent the skin-creature from acting without a Tenno. (Safeguards that can be disabled, a-la Mesa and Chroma)

 

My point is that perhaps "Rhino" (E.G.) is the personality of a base creature, not of a Tenno Hence why The Warframes are explicitly referred to as "beings" using gendered pronouns, Etc.

 

Sure, the Ember codex still applies and some Tenno do exhibit explicit powers (Assuming the Zariman children did, indeed, become Tenno) and perhaps there are specific Tenno who helped "dominating" the material in the Warframe into a specific shape/state just for them. Or perhaps the Orokin kept creating creatures until they found ones that seemed to be sympathetic with the first batch of void-touched-children they had. But regardless of the finer detail what I'm suggesting is:

 

What if the personality of a Warframe is part of the creature dismembered/used as raw materials to make it _not_ a creation of some progenitor Tenno, does that not solve the story personification of the Warframes?

 

From what we know of the Orokin via Synthesis additions, it's reasonable.

 

So far, we know that the engineered the Grineer to serve as labourers and later, combatants. They engineered the Lorists to serve as aides in Relief or Combat efforts. There is the implication in the MOA entry that they may even have engineered themselves to better suit their place or station per the 'Corpus' concept; it's like a sci-fi Genetic Platonic Republic, in a way.

 

Genetically dictated and designed social rank and role. Chilling really, when you think of the implications.

 

So from there, you have the context for the Infestation; if they were indeed tailor made, it perfectly fits with the Orokin MO so far.

 

Which then leaves you with Davis' suspicious theory that if you took these bioweapons and the Zariman survivors, you'd get something even more effective. The power of a tailor made monster, for want of a better word, reigned in and manipulated by a more intelligent entity to even greater results.

 

Leading into Affinity: The Tenno and Frame getting to 'know' each other and work together for their shared goal of surviving. Poor matches of personality likely hinder a 'true' mastery of the link, causing weaknesses to arise in usage. Everyone has that frame they just can't get on with, after all.

 

And could also bleed into the Tenno asceticism, as a way to manage just how much the Warframe might affect the wearer, sort of like Primarchs and their Titans in 40K? Possibility at any rate.

[SilentMobius]

This has been what I've been saying forever now - the personality of the Warframe IS the personality of the Warframe bleeding into the Tenno that's "occupying" it.

 

Yes me too, I don't disagree with the notion of the current-era Tenno+Warframe being an entity of blended personality. As I posted last year ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/278448-are-the-tenno-specialized-for-one-warframe-or-can-they-switch-frames/?p=3205684 ):

 

The idea of a line of suits that were based on a single ancient hero where the suit provides the shape/powers/fragments of their personality to the current pilot is very cool

 

But the specific point I'm making is the possibility of the origin of the Warframe-as-being-with-personality is not Tenno related or created, but a part of the beast-material used to build them. This solves the need for "progenitor Tenno" and mitigates the issues some people have with the Warframes themselves being referred to as entities.

[SilentMobius]

And could also bleed into the Tenno asceticism, as a way to manage just how much the Warframe might affect the wearer, sort of like Primarchs and their Titans in 40K? Possibility at any rate.

 

Hah! literally the next line under the quote I fished out for Morc0 from last year:

 

The idea of a line of suits that were based on a single ancient hero where the suit provides the shape/powers/fragments of their personality to the current pilot is very cool, with our Buddhist-like warrior monk Tenno who "ride" these powerful machines allowing fragments of the old heroes through when they wear the suit. Hell just the idea of a suit so advanced that it modifies the _wearer_ to fit, just that detail add so much theme and style to the game

 

So yes, I agree!

[Morec0]

Yes me too, I don't disagree with the notion of the current-era Tenno+Warframe being an entity of blended personality. As I posted last year ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/278448-are-the-tenno-specialized-for-one-warframe-or-can-they-switch-frames/?p=3205684 ):

 

 

 

 

But the specific point I'm making is the possibility of the origin of the Warframe-as-being-with-personality is not Tenno related or created, but a part of the beast-material used to build them. This solves the need for "progenitor Tenno" and mitigates the issues some people have with the Warframes themselves being referred to as entities.

 

Complete agreement. I'm already super on-board with Warframes being living creatures in their own right, this is just a part of that whole dynamic.

[TheBrsrkr]

Ugh, I hate mobile.....

[Blakrana]

But the specific point I'm making is the possibility of the origin of the Warframe-as-being-with-personality is not Tenno related or created, but a part of the beast-material used to build them. This solves the need for "progenitor Tenno" and mitigates the issues some people have with the Warframes themselves being referred to as entities.

 

You know, when we look at it from this angle, it really works with how the Lotus discusses specific Warframes in the Profile videos. (Currently meandering through some)

 

It's not just the Tenno wellbeing that the Lotus is concerned with, it's possibly also that of the wellbeing of the Warframes themselves. At least, based on the language being used.

 

Fits quite well with how I've viewed it for quite a long while now, but it still makes one pause to consider just what that means in a cultural context.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Complete agreement. I'm already super on-board with Warframes being living creatures in their own right, this is just a part of that whole dynamic.

Nanosuits, I tell you! My brain was screaming Prophet the whole time I was reading that.

[SilentMobius]

Nanosuits, I tell you! My brain was screaming Prophet the whole time I was reading that.

 

Well yeah, but 40K Exarchs were doing that in 1994 and I don't really like Crysis... ;)

[Morec0]

Nanosuits, I tell you! My brain was screaming Prophet the whole time I was reading that.

 

Well, if I remember correctly Prophet - and how he later took over the body in Crysis 2 - was more of a "this guy wore the suit before, and part of his personality was left in it, allowing him to later assume direct control", which is the "Original Ember/Rhino Tenno" theory.

 

What THIS is saying is basically if the nano suit had a personality all its own even BEFORE Prophet put it on - let's call it Tim. And from there Tim forced a portion of its personality onto the still-very-much-in-control wearer of the nano suit, no matter WHO they were.