The Grineer Are Not Cloned

[indaris]

Cloning can cause problems with DNA if you clone the clones. Cloning isn't perfect, there will be imperfections in the process. It sounds like the Grineer went crazy on cloning.

[Siubijeni]

Yes, we know enough that cloning does not degrade genetics.

 

Oh, do we? And have we been cloning the same few individuals for many, many generations... using clones of a clone of a clone? You really can't say what we do and do not know about cloning. We know very little about the long-term effects of it. Sides, how the flaws came to start has tons of possible explanation... it's never been answered, but once it starts it can only get worse. There are arguments for and against the likelihood of this being a realistic scenario, but...

 

It doesn't even matter, because like Antoine said... it's a very commonly used sci-fi trope. Just because it doesn't have to be used doesn't mean it isn't... that argument holds no water. The Grineer are explicitly said to be degrading clones, multiple times. Your argument is invalid. You're not on to anything. We know exactly what they are, even if DE's take on the cloning process is a little... original? I'm not a fan of the "sacrifice" to "stabilize" a batch... but hey, it's their thing.

 

Another problem I have with the whole issue is... well, lets just say there is degradation... Then why don't they just make a new DNA line? They're probably billions of humans in the warframe galaxy that reproduce normally, why not just clone them?

 

...you do realize that the Grineer are described as highly xenophobic, and have a wicked superiority complex? That alone answers all of those concerns. They don't need to be "pseudoreligious" or anything. They are, in essence, space nazis.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Siubijeni

[Umb231]

Just because they cant make babes, doesnt mean they dont do the nasty. I garrenty you teen Gineer get pretty busy. Aswell as any that STILL have parts that work.

 

Betting the tenno do to, LOL anyone else think that Relay's probably have love hotels on them? I mean come on? Nyx, Ember Sayrn, Nova, Mesa, Valkry? You REALLY telling me the male tenno dont get to eye balling them on thier breaks?

 

I'm still holding out hope that some of the Rhinos, Excaliburs, and Lokis are eyeing each other in the locker rooms...

[Demon-King-Lamb]

Do we really fully understand cloning in today's technology?

 

Nope.

[PyroPaul]

When i first started this game the very first thing that appeared in my mind when i met the Grineer was "Wait cloning doesn't degrade DNA?", and now we have the latest patch which shows that to make a Grineer batch you must sacrifice the Grineer so the thought appeared that because of all the mutagens that they come into contact must mess with their DNA, and when they try to clone them it just mutates further, then i noticed the Female Grineer. Now why would they even have Females anymore if they were clones after all Males have more muscle mass, mature faster, that would make for a better army, and then i thought about how cloning creates an exact copy except the Grineer have different faces (Compare Vor to SM leader, or the new Kela) which makes no sense nor would you even need a sacrifice if you have a blood vial.

 

Now they also have DNA manipulation equipment in Tyl Regors lab which would eliminate their problem even if you had one lab per factory of Grineer but what if the Grineer are only partial clones, because all of these symptoms, genetic degradation, mass production of people, requiring multiple DNA strands for batches of clones, they all match symptoms and the use of... Inbreeding.The Grineer have gotten smarter since their creation around Orokin times which would take heavy genetic manipulation which after the fall of their empire was short on technology (Only having slave Orokin or a few Corpus survivors), and as we know Inbreeding is a perfect tool for getting a flat genetic baseline after all look at D. Melanogaster (Fruit Flies) or Rats (Which are used as testing animals because their genes are resistant to Inbreeding) which would help get the genes you want while being able to eliminate those you don't.

 

In summary of this long paragraph for those of you who didn't want to read, the Grineer are being inbreed at a rate faster then a family of Louisianans in an isolated swamp with no birth control.

 

Because they are Flash Clones...

 

A Flash Clone is a theoretical type of cloning which can near instantaneously produce a duplicate copy of the original at the point in time the copy was taken.   What results isn't a baby that is genetically identical - but rather a full fledged duplicate individual at the same age, condition, and capability as the parent copy.   This theory is supported in the Tube Men seen in the new event map - as many of the vats seen through out the area which are 'growing' new grineer contain not children or adolescents, but instead adult grineer.  

 

It also not only explains why there are different Genders of Grineer, but also why specific genders only fulfill select roles...  As those chosen for cloning would of been chosen as leading examples that the Grineer simply want more of.   The best Sniper, the Best Machine gunner, the Best Line Soldier.   Your best Sniper was a woman... so you clone her so that all your snipers are her...   then the best one of those you clone for the next generation of snipers... and so on, and so on. 

 

The degradation that occurs from this comes from the practice of Copying Copies, as minor flaws in an individual - such as genetic decay due to radiation exposure or combat, recessive traits carried by select individuals, or inherited disorders which effect only a small cross section -  Become the Staple of the species as a whole.

[PyroPaul]

I don't see the genetic degradation angle really panning out in terms of lore.

 

Cloning doesn't degrade the DNA per se, although you can get somatic mutation where the grineers may be taking their DNA samples and that may change the DNA template over hundreds of generations, from what we know of DNA tech right now, during the inception of the DNA line, they could just sequence the whole thing out and then they'd be able to make exact copies from that sequence every time. Since nowadays we can edit DNA pretty accurately, I wouldn't think it'd be a stretch with their technology to perfectly replicate a sequenced DNA.

 

Another problem I have with the whole issue is... well, lets just say there is degradation... Then why don't they just make a new DNA line? They're probably billions of humans in the warframe galaxy that reproduce normally, why not just clone them?

 

The only way I see that DE can ammend this aspect of lore is to turn the grineer into a type of pseudoreligion where the original DNA lines are sacred, and a grineer is only a grineer if they were made from said original line, and that any data of their original DNA sequence was destroyed when the tenno destroyed the orokin, and the grineer have been trying to bring back those founder lines ever since.

 

 

cloning doesn't degrade DNA as we know it...

But when was the last time we cloned a 9th generation clone of a clone? 

 

you're working on theory that they're using the same DNA sequence from when they started...   but it is implied that they are not doing that - but rather making copies of copies - which can allow them to standardize new tactics, tools, equipment and skills in record time, as they field veritable armies in response to ever changing battlefield conditions. 

[Ishki88]

Side comment:  I find it odd that Corro and Viral do more damage (in terms of optimal damagE) than Radiation on Grineer.

[Kaokasalis]

I dont know anything about cloning and genetics but what if the Grineer clone decay is something that was originally made by the Orokin to keep the clones in line. We know from the synthesis scans that the Grineer were genetically engineered slaves to the Orokin. When the fall of the Orokin happend and the Grineer started to clone them self after what ever way they seperated from the Orokin, couldnt it be that mabye they didnt have the proper knowledge on how to safely do so which just made the clone decay even worse over the ages?

Edited May 17, 2015 by Ory_Hara

[Ionus]

Side comment:  I find it odd that Corro and Viral do more damage (in terms of optimal damagE) than Radiation on Grineer.

Some Grineer have alloy armor, which is weak against radiation. A few grineer have alloy armor, such as Napalms, Eviscerators, and Bombards. Kela DE Thaym and Captain For do as well.

[OnlinePhenome]

Warframe is by no means scientifically accurate, but such claims as cloning doesn't degrade DNA isn't true. As some have said, telomeres affects the aging process by shortening by every duplication of cell (DNA becomes too short and one dies of old age). By today's means it's not possible to create a perfect copy of a mammal/ animal. That is because of epigenetics... DNA is packed in different ways and affects gene-expression. Cloning a fully grown adult (this is what grineer do) means that the copies will have shorter telomeres and have incorrect packing. However they might have a very advanced way of cloning ("Flash cloning?") Grineer are also using an artificial "womb" and we don't know how effective it may be (perfect cloning is nonsense btw.) 

 

Grineer might also be running out of a "fresh" batch of grineer DNA/ specimens and they/ orokin might have done really drastic modifications to enhance some traits, but by enhancing some traits there'll be imperfections (it's not that they knew everything about allele combinations or the like.) To modify an organism you also need a lot of "vectors" (like viruses) that carry the modified DNA and can leave unnecessary modifications, mutations etc. Grineer also took a lot of cybernetic enhancements on themselves, so they might also have "evolved" in a way to not be able to live without them. As a lot of you know, some grineer take flesh as a weakness. 

 

PS. Thanks for reading. lol

Edited May 17, 2015 by Irregardless_Existence

[fakeBOSHI]

Re: Do we understand modern cloning?

 

Yes and no. We are able to do it. The mechanisms are not always clear especially with the "special property" of embryonic cell lines where we have no idea EXACTLY which master transcription factors are required and in which concert to yield differentiated tissues that we can generate. Cloning is not very hard to do in modern day and relatively inexpensive compared to 20-30 yrs ago. Molecular biology and genetics moves much faster than the common person thinks.

 

Re: Degeneration by cloning.

 

As far as I know, there are no degenerations that result from cloning DNA. DNA is an incredibly stable molecule that can take a beating and keep kicking. Telomere shortening is the normal part of DNA degeneration, fragmentation and cell death that is REQUIRED, in order to avoid accumulation of deleterious mutations. Telomere shortening does NOT result in degradation of the organism, it is a highly regulated part of mitosis. Radiation and Chemical modifications may result in deleterious mutations in the DNA germ line but I highly doubt any competent scientist would ever just herp-derp that hard. Even undergrads don't.

 

Also, cloning and clone of a clone...etc. does not result in accumulated deleterious traits either. Maybe the rapid growth has something to do with the degeneration though...

 

DNA modification, making plasmids, inserting in the target site etc. is all pretty routine stuff in modern labs that deal with that stuff. There is no guessing in that regard and no unnecessary modifications when we actually transfect. The only things that screw up are inefficient transformations in which case a bunch of the transformants fail, or don't get to grow. Both of which wouldn't result in a degenerating organism.  

[Ratagain]

They are cloned,there is no doubt about it.

[elixze]

Hey, the chinese clone pigs! But the female pigs still give birth to them. I guess they got some billion grineer females doing forced pregency and then labour or something :P

[Damuranashi]

Cloning specifically doesn't degrade genetics, but lack of genetic variation sure does. The Grineer pretty clearly use a variety of different samples and presumably try to mix them to achieve a similar effect as sexual reproduction in lieu of, well, sexual reproduction, but it's entirely possible that it's simply not enough. In effect, they are, actually, becoming inbred, without any incest. The whole "sacrifice" thing could be them, again, trying to get some genetic exchange going so as to counteract the stagnation and lack of genetic diversity.

This guy just won the thread. Give him a medal.

[tris1]

This guy just won the thread. Give him a medal.

The first part of that is wrong

[DarkLordX2]

I'll tell you why they have females:

-Scorpions: To annoy you until you ragequit.

-Heavy Gunners: Walking Tanks with Machine guns.

[Dantayeule]

Bulldogs aren't cloned but the inbreeding created very common respiratory and cardiac problems on top of the desired traits. Genes are unpredictable. Even if you carefully select them, there's still a big element of chance involved in how they will evolve over time.That's also reflected in kubrow breeding.

 

We can assume that if the Grineer have a gene pool that's limited and contains a lot of deffective genes, you might end up with an intelligent leader (Vor, Regor, etc) or $&*&*#(%& super-soldiers that spin around on one leg as they shoot at you or choose to hide on the FRONT of a cover objet, with their backs turn to you... (Ok, I know this is due to AI programming...)

 

And all it would take to make a Grineer a woman is the right dose of oestrogen vs testosterone... and then you might end up with a 'male-in-the-body-of-a-female' type situation. "Not that there's anything wrong with that".

 

As to why there would be females, it's pretty simple: they're trying to create fertile ones (along with fertile males). Whether they're succeeding or not... Women are a valuable assets, lore-wise or otherwise.

 

 

And I got sucked in. Sad day. Sad. Day.

 

 

Edit: Apparently the layman's word for mentally diminished is a bad word... And Tea_Kettle put it better than me.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Dantayeule

[PyroPaul]

Re: Degeneration by cloning.

 

As far as I know, there are no degenerations that result from cloning DNA. DNA is an incredibly stable molecule that can take a beating and keep kicking. Telomere shortening is the normal part of DNA degeneration, fragmentation and cell death that is REQUIRED, in order to avoid accumulation of deleterious mutations. Telomere shortening does NOT result in degradation of the organism, it is a highly regulated part of mitosis. Radiation and Chemical modifications may result in deleterious mutations in the DNA germ line but I highly doubt any competent scientist would ever just herp-derp that hard. Even undergrads don't.

 

Also, cloning and clone of a clone...etc. does not result in accumulated deleterious traits either. Maybe the rapid growth has something to do with the degeneration though...

 

DNA modification, making plasmids, inserting in the target site etc. is all pretty routine stuff in modern labs that deal with that stuff. There is no guessing in that regard and no unnecessary modifications when we actually transfect. The only things that screw up are inefficient transformations in which case a bunch of the transformants fail, or don't get to grow. Both of which wouldn't result in a degenerating organism.  

 

Like so many others, you're using 'Genetic Cloning' as the basis of your argument... which is the problem.

 

A genetic Clone is just duplicating a DNA sequence and imprinting it on blank eggs.The only reason you use Genetic Cloning is for Aesthetics - as the clone will have the same hair color, eye color, skin pigmentation, skeletal structure, and musculature as their parent.   These 'clones' must still be birthed, grow, mature, be trained, conditioned, and taught - and as with any Nature vs Nurture argument will tell you - the outcome of these individuals may vary greatly from the parent DNA you put in. 

 

The type of cloning they are using in the game is much more expansive, as it is capable of producing Carbon Copies - something modern medical science is incapable of doing.  The copied clone is produced at the same state as the parent clone,  very similar to a 3d printer scanning a parent object then printing out a duplicate... It just does this with organic flesh rather then inorganic material.

 

This is a very Far-fetched theoretical type of cloning which works on a much larger scale -  Imagine intercepting a single instance of Cell Division, then taking it away from the host body and then letting that instance of Cell Division continue on it's own.   What occurs is that you get a carbon copy.  a Clone which is genetically and physically identical to the parent copy in very aspect.   And that is Grineer cloning. 

[.ERO.]

Grineer clones are made in batches, each batch is slightly worse off or lost because of various reasons. Grineer are matriarchal, females are their leaders and strategists.

[Morec0]

It's not just that the Grineer are cloning, it's that they are cloning POORLY.

 

One of the key elements of Grineer cloning seems to be using dead Grineer clone tissues as nutrients - recycling it into the food system for the newborns. I'm not an expert on what consuming human flesh does to people, but I do recall it not being exactly healthy, and the Grineer are doing this FROM THE WOMB - now draw this out over the centuries that we've been in Cryosleep, and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

Plus, again: it's a sci fi setting. In particular the second part of that term should be noted: fi. Fiction. Whether or not it's realistic doesn't matter, as long as a fictional universe is self-consistent everything is a-okay. The science part DOES tend to imply there might be some more cold-hard facts behind it, but all in all it's more likely to be used as an aesthetic setting. If it's science fiction you can bet there's likely to be lasers, space travel, or something else that is bred from some kind of technology.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Grineer clones are made in batches, each batch is slightly worse off or lost because of various reasons. Grineer are matriarchal, females are their leaders and strategists.

Just their Queens and one Kela De Thaym.  The rest are fulfilling roles that require a little more finesse, but otherwise cannon fodder like their male counterparts.

 

 

It's not just that the Grineer are cloning, it's that they are cloning POORLY.

 

One of the key elements of Grineer cloning seems to be using dead Grineer clone tissues as nutrients - recycling it into the food system for the newborns. I'm not an expert on what consuming human flesh does to people, but I do recall it not being exactly healthy, and the Grineer are doing this FROM THE WOMB - now draw this out over the centuries that we've been in Cryosleep, and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

Plus, again: it's a sci fi setting. In particular the second part of that term should be noted: fi. Fiction. Whether or not it's realistic doesn't matter, as long as a fictional universe is self-consistent everything is a-okay. The science part DOES tend to imply there might be some more cold-hard facts behind it, but all in all it's more likely to be used as an aesthetic setting. If it's science fiction you can bet there's likely to be lasers, space travel, or something else that is bred from some kind of technology.

As for the sacrificed clone, his genetic material is used to stabilize the DNA within the new clones.  Beyond that, why the clones keep degrading probably has more to do with the process of cloning involved and that whatever genes they're working off of have a shelf life.  Basically, the template gets worse with time and the cloning process is designed for rapidly creating clones, likely encouraging some defects.  So when that sample's shelf life is up, they scrape some more samples off a preferably excellent clone's bum and get back to brewing more killing machines, only with a less optimal sample.  And the process repeats... endlessly.

 

One might ask why they don't just borrow from a fresh human, but the answer is likely they can't.  For whatever reason, the tech they're working with only accepts samples based on certain individuals, so they're stuck making clones cloned from clones that were cloned from clones.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Littleman88

[Morec0]

One might ask why they don't just borrow from a fresh human, but the answer is likely they can't.  For whatever reason, the tech they're working with only accepts samples based on certain individuals, so they're stuck making clones cloned from clones that were cloned from clones.

 

If it weren't for the recent statement of "Grineer is more of a mentality than anything" from Cordylon, I'd say they don't want to for racial superiority reasons - same reason why the inbred hillbilly white A****** family living next door to me wont let their son marry the beautiful black girl living next door and instead insist on the ceremony between him and his sister.

 

But I digress.

 

Even WITH that in mind, though, it's still possible it's a racial thing - those cloned Grineer being the only ones worthy of reproduction, while those non-clones who worship the Queens are basically.... I don't know the term but I'm PRETTY SURE somewhere in history there was like a police force of some racist regime comprised entirely of one of the races they hate that swore fealty to them above all else.

[SilentMobius]

Just because its a trope (I know how ridiculous this sounds considering were space ninjas that fight techno zombies) doesn't mean it has to be used.

 

Yes, but the point is that it _is_ being used. It is explicitly stated that all Grineer _are_ clones. Regardless of real world applicability, it _is_ happening in the Warframe game world.

[Zer01990]

Physical maturity doesnt equal mental maturity.

 

Actually, its also been scientifically proven that women do in fact mature mentally sooner than men do, just as they do physically. You're right, one doesn't automatically mean the other, but that doesn't change the fact that they both still happen.

[Mizar5129]

Genetic degradation could be a result of the hostile environments of a ruined Earth as well as unstable tech. As well as the fact Grineer come out of the vats as adults. The rapid maturity might cause rapid aging as well.

 

There is also random mutations and a severe lack of genetic variety you have to think about. Perhaps Grineer cloning is akin to copying analog waves, the wave's quality deteriorates the more it's copied.

Orokin tech probably didn't have these issues.

 

Not only that, but it's likely the Grineer tried messing with the DNA to make themselves stronger, but either failed or ruined something else in the process. Grineer probably weren't terribly smart to begin with, they were just workers, not thinkers. 

The melting down of particularly skilled Grineer into raw genetic data supports the idea they just mash genes together and hope for the best.

 

However we don't know enough about cloning to be sure. Perhaps if we develop similar tech and clone other clones over and over, we may see similar results. It's possible the deterioration wasn't noticeable until a few dozen generations in. 

 

The latest update makes me wonder about some of the more bizarre mutations, we saw Grineer techs with four arms and no legs, and a freaky security guard thing with three faces.