May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[K1LLZ0NE]

I think this guy is greatly mistaken. If I recall correctly, and I am sure someone can wiki it, there were only 50, not endless. Have a nice day.

 

lol  That made my night ;P

[K1LLZ0NE]

He was second to Trinity and so you shouldn't be bothered if other abilities are second to others then.

You cant pick and choose and be selective about calling some abilities not optimal while not others.

 

Dude, just stop.  You are obviously in the minority here.  The nerf was too much, get over it.  This game is supposed to be about "balance".  Well, Rhino is not "balanced".  If another 'frame can do what it is supposed to do, but better, that's not balance.  

[K1LLZ0NE]

On a side note, does anybody know if the pricing changed for the weapons plat costs??  I know some plat options were removed, but did some have their cost raised?

[Broadbeard]

I do not think Banshee needs to be invincible during her ultimate(4).

I do think that she needs some damage reduction. 70-85% or so would be good.

Banshee is not supposed to be a tank folks, however her ability requires her to stand still for a while and there is no perfect spot to cover for her most of the time. Some damage reduction would be very nice, but I am fine where she is now.

As for Rhino, a nerf was needed and the DEVs were right about that, but 80% is just too low for higher level defense missions when he is the main tank and "medic". I would say make it atleast 88-93% reduction. Make it balanced enough where he can still go balls over walls to save someone, but he cant survive an entire wave of lvl 100+ mobs attacking him at once.

[Karko]

Rhino - Iron Skin

 

Idea 1

 

-Full invulnerability

-Decrease Duration at max to 7-9 seconds.

-Increase energy cost to 75.

-Add speed reduction.

 

Idea 2

 

-Damage reduction at max is 90% or 95%.

-12-15 sec duration.

-Energy cost stays at 50.

-No speed reduction.

-Passive large area AoE taunt effect.

 

Idea 3

 

-Damage reduction at 80%

-15-22 sec duration.

-Energy cost at 50.

-No speed reduction.

-No taunt.

-Increase Rhino's base armor by 50. Base shields by 25%. Base health by 20%

 

Edited for easier reading.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Karko

[Lonestar96]

- Not on the topic of Rhino, but Banshee not being invulnerable during Soundquake, can we talk about that?

 

Soundquake - First off let us evaluate why this ability was so unique in the first place. Personally i felt that the range of this ability is what made it so special, while it takes two Ult's for other frames to clear rooms Banshee can do it in one BUT! at a cost, It does 200 damage per pulse yet is mitigated by armor (Heavy Grineer, Ancients). Here are a couple of suggestions:

 

 

1. Restore its original range - Why you ask? Banshee was a RANGED Stealthy Warframe to begin with, Banshee's abilities if you'll notice have impressive range (Sonar 30m, Silence 35m, Sonic Boom 12m) and there's no denying that, even in the market you'll see Banshee holding a Paris. this will preserve the essence and novelty of the frame being RANGED fighter

 

 

2. Keep her vulnerable - Lets face facts, Isn't it sad when a Banshee runs past the Rhino/Trinity casts Soundquake receives a whopping 7 seconds of invulnerability and to add insult to injury clears the entire room (aside from the heavies of course). I feel like this will keep the ability balanced and at the same time generate a couple of surprising ability combinations with other Warframes thus encouraging more CO-OP! (Frost - Snowglobe, Saryn - Molt, Loki - Decoy, Trinity - Blessing). For solo play i guess you can just jump on a box v.s. Infested or hide in corners utilize Sonar to anticipate incoming enemies.

 

3. Keep the damage as is - Soundquake's damage is perfect as it is. it might wreck at lower level area's but it takes 2 or 3 casts to kill enemies at the 40-50ish level range, Strong v.s. Light and Weak v.s. Heavy that sounds just about right.

 

4. Stagger - I'm not quite certain about this one. I'm fairly certain it staggers Grineer and Corpus before not sure if it still does that now. No idea where to go with this one :))

 

 

These are my thoughts, love em hate em that's for you to decide.

[MetroidHunter26]

I'll put in my 2 Cents here for a moment here and say...you didn't ruin Rhino. You just kinda bruised him a bit (I play a VERY Defensive Rhino with all Mods that increase his Survivability. I also have Tanking Background from other games so I know how tanks should be) And ,Now here me out pls, IS GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. The thing about tanks is:
We take Damage
We Mitigate said Damage
We make it so our Frail Teammates don't die from said things we are tanking (Lets say Jackal/Phorid or even Ancients with there evil abilities)
We dish out damage via Vengence mechanic(now this isn't the case for Warframe as Our Weapons with Mods make up for it. If you can't DPS down a Jackal with your load out Solo it's time to invest in some mods or farm Xini.)

The only problem right now is that I see is that the damage doesn't seem to be mitigating and of course the Disruptors and Knockbacks But there is Also the Poison element in there.

If we can get that fixed then Iron Skin will do just fine.
There is also the talk about his abilities being really weak compared to other Warframes. I do agree but that there lies the problem. There similar to some warframes abilities.

Charge Is basically a poor rendition of Slash Dash.
Radial Blast has little damage and in order to make it better you'll need to put the mods in for the effort but why do that when you can go full Defense Mods and keep it for stuns? (I don't think the stuns work on infested though from what I see and most of the enemies shrug it off)
Rhino Stomp is effectivly a CC this I find useful it STOPS Damage and that's what people are missing.

Tanking isn't about Dishing out Damage it's about TAKING Damage and doing everything in your power to make sure nobody dies. That's the thrill of a tanking class!!! NOT DOING THE MOST DAMAGE!!!

I want a Rhino that can Take on loads of enemies and still live!! Teammates supporting him while he Cleaves, Stomps, Blasts everything so the team kills the stragglers and he emerges victorious!

I'm for a nerf but help his other abilities so he is a niche for team. Make him credit to team! It's amazing to be that heavy guy with a gorgon slowly walking in a room bullets flying everywhere and my shields only take a few hits. It's Great! But I LOVE MELEE!! I love getting in the fray and that's why I love playing Rhino.
The only thing that sucks is the bugged state of Iron Skin right now. I'm sure I can still take on Infested and come out particularly fine but I probably wont be able to get to round 15 in Xini Solo and that's fine. If I can still farm Warframe BP's Solo with a good Load Out and some Health Packs then Great!!

I have no good idea's on how to make the other abilities better. Other talented people can though so I leave it to them. I just wanted to post here and say thanks for this game! It's SUPER FUN!! LIEK OMG!!! If I was rich I would throw ALL the moneyz at it. But I support the best I can with a few purchases here and there and post on here what I find and what I think about playing.

Sorry for this long post though. There's a lot of tension right now in the community and I hope this post gives light in how I think the Rhino should be.
Thanks  :D
 

[Mak_Gohae]

Dude, just stop.  You are obviously in the minority here.  The nerf was too much, get over it.  This game is supposed to be about "balance".  Well, Rhino is not "balanced".  If another 'frame can do what it is supposed to do, but better, that's not balance.  

 

Of course im the minority here.

Im that dude that doesnt Iron Skin through a whole stage.

I have been playing Rhino since the start by not using Iron Skin and he plays fine.

You guys that mainly used Iron Skin took a hit and now have to start popping those other abilities. So enjoy learning to play your new Rhino.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Constructive criticism: This update removed a lot of emergency saves. It's not a "challenge" when, if something goes wrong and you find yourself in a bad situation, you're just doomed to lose no matter what. It's just not fun to wipe because a swarm of ancients came from the room over while you were dealing with other mobs and then they killed you because now your ultimates don't make you invincible when you use them to cut yourself some slack, and now rhino can't even res you because he's just going to die from the poison too.

 

As is using your ultimates as Mag or Banshee after this update is basically a suicide move because enemies that are just out of range are now free to destroy you, or dudes with guns can just snipe you from afar and it's not much of a "challenge" it's just unfair.

 

If the issue was rhino being invincible all the time IE: being able to solo to wave 30 on defense missions, then alter the cost of his ability or how certain cards affect it please. Don't just out right remove an otherwise reasonable tactic in a PVE game.

 

As for the weapon increase, this presents a massive issue because it barely affects people who've been playing for even a few days. However, it completely messes up anyone new to the game. They're going to join up, see the massive prices and mat lists, see they only earn about 1k or 50 resources per mission and give up because it seriously feels like a pay to win scam like some sort of iphone game. Please, please don't keep these prices.

I've mentioned it before but if the issue was not enough people buying plat, then there's other ways to do it. Lowering the overall prices would help as would weekend sales since people are more inclined to buy a lot of lower priced things than one big thing, as well as anything marked "sale".

 

All in all, this patch was a bungle outside of the fixes and I'm not speaking in hyperbole, it's an almost universal negative response, guys. Please revert it and try to find a better way to deal with the rhino issue if you absolutely feel you have to.

[Ninjaman999]

ALLOY PLATE IS SO HARD TO GET, why did you guys make it so prominent in the BPs for the old weapons? :o
Like holy crap. 300 Alloy for something like a Burstron is redic ._.
I did the reset as well ._.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

Don't just listen to the people who shout the loudest, sound quake and iron skin got these nerfs because of very angry people screaming about how 'OP' it was and for the most part of iron skin i agree, but it needed a duration reduction and a energy cost boost, not a reduction to the whole point of the skill. Right now the fact is that any enemy with decent rate of fire can and will focus Rhino down into oblivion, not to mention a disrupter teamed up with a toxic ancient can trivialize the effects, removing the invulnerability was not the right way to fix this power. 
 

[K1LLZ0NE]

Of course im the minority here.

Im that dude that doesnt Iron Skin through a whole stage.

I have been playing Rhino since the start by not using Iron Skin and he plays fine.

You guys that mainly used Iron Skin took a hit and now have to start popping those other abilities. So enjoy learning to play your new Rhino.

 

I find that hard to believe.  Sorry.  And I only EVER used Iron Skin when my shields went down and when an ally needed reviving.  Reduce the duration or increase its cost.  Don't change the nature of the ability.

[Mak_Gohae]

I find that hard to believe.  Sorry.  And I only EVER used Iron Skin when my shields went down and when an ally needed reviving.  Reduce the duration or increase its cost.  Don't change the nature of the ability.

 

How can you find it hard to believe if you only used it when your shields went down?

What where you doing when the shield were not down?

Oh wait.... were your shield down constantly?

[Heartcliffe]

So, I present to you Tenno a current list of what I’ll be taking to the Design Table:

-People wonder if the reaction is this strong to one OP ability, maybe the other abilities could use a buff! Let’s review!

- Holy S&@* where is his knockback immunity? (This is a bug, it SHOULD be there.)

- People want to know why the Nerf? Why not make stuff harder? What is being prioritized?

- Trinity is now “a better tank.” What does this mean for the overall balance of the frames?

- As Thor, a community mod, has summarized: "In essence, people seem concerned that what's happening is things are getting balanced towards an even, but weak, playing field". What are your thoughts on that?

- Not on the topic of Rhino, but Banshee not being invulnerable during Soundquake, can we talk about that?

This list is not final, and it doesn’t guarantee changes, but it will serve a purpose.

TL;DR? No - Please read it. Really. I really think if you’ve made a post about Rhino you NEED TO READ THIS. IF you don’t care about Rhino, carry on.

P.S: Scotty you’ll probably read this before I bring it to your office, so be prepared!

 

I'm thankful that the knock-back (un?)Immunity was a bug. It gives me much joy as a primary Rhino user.

However, Like mentioned, the nerfing of an admittedly OP'ed skill that Rhino Skin was created this much of a negative response suggests that Something is inherently wrong with Rhino. Before i get to some suggestions, i just want to bring up a point about Iron Skin. I find that 80% damage reduction is reasonable.

 

However, when ancients are concern, or more specifically, Ancient disrupters, they should not have the ability to drain you of your energy. As I see it, they pierce your warframe and drained it of energy, which when Iron Skin is cast, should be blocked as they can't pierce Iron Skin. Toxic Ancients poisoning you during Iron Skin should stay as it is, as it turns your skin into iron, not your lungs. Just wanted to bring this up. 

 

Now onto the can of worms and other nasty items that are the Rhino's abilities. To be honest, they are underwhelming; mainly the 3rd and 4th slot abilities. The 1st slot ability is fitting, but seems more like a copied pasted ability from Excalibur. Now with Vauban's third slot ability being not only as good, but even possibly better then Rhino's ultimate Rhino Stomp, It leaves the Rhino with barely anything worth calling it's own, other then Iron Skin. However, Since this nerf is only about Iron Skin, i'll just talk about this to prevent clutter.

Now based on the Rhino Skin, it is rather fitting that Rhino is mainly an Enemy tank, leaving the more defensive abilities to Frost and friends. As such, his abilities should be reworked to fit that of someone who's ultimate role is to take the heat from your squishy Tenno buddies and to deliver it back to sender x fold. 

 

Second Slot Ability- Rhino Skin

Rhino hardens his skin, greatly reducing damage for a short time and attracting the attention of nearby enemies.

 

Rhino Skin should remain the way it currently is. 80% damage reduction prevents exploiting/abuse of this skill against bosses/etc. . However, the knockback immunity bug needs to be fixed ASAP or many Rhino players will be upset. Mentioned on the first page of this post is adding a Taunt to Iron Skin that, within a certain distance, will immediately attract attention of all nearby enemies and focus on the Rhino, as where a tank should be. This would promote team play, as keeping the Rhino alive and killing the Enemies before the enemies overwhelm the Rhino. I can already imagine the beautiful teamwork from this. This also adds a much needed CC to Rhino, as even with Iron Skin on before, it wasn't guaranteed to attract your enemies away from your team.

 

If anyone is interested, I will link a thread with some of my proposed fixes for Rhino's abilities. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46216-rhino-needs-a-much-needed-rework/

Edited May 18, 2013 by Heartcliffe

[Exodess]

The Time is 4:48 PM, I review the Update Notes, wondering how the changes to Banshee and Rhino will be received. The reaction to the changes to the Hek and Gorgon just a few weeks ago are still fresh in my mind, but I remember that we did receive quality feedback. This feedback allowed us to tweak the balance changes. I hope everyone else remembers this rollercoaster as well as I do.

But, back to today:

4:49 PM hits and the Patch Notes Post and Update 7.11.0 went live.

4:54 PM hits, the first “HOLY RHINO NERF” appears. I think, it’s only been 5 minutes, there is no way they could have loaded the game, played several levels, and produced feedback.

4:55 PM hits, another post (this time 6 minutes after original post) saying how we ruined Rhino!

4:56 PM hits and BAM another post! Now I am quite certain that it is all initial reactions at this point. I think to myself and sadly there is nothing I can take from these posts to a designer to make changes with. I go off into a daydream, picturing myself walking into Scott’s office and saying:

“Our Community is really reacting strongly to this Rhino change”– Me

“Oh! We just wanted to invite challenge into his play style, I think 100% invincibility was a little strong, what does the community suggest?” Scott

“Suggest? Hold on, let me check… oh. Nothing, actually, they just wanted to let us know that we ruined him and are doomed.”

For hours this continues, few posts emerge that provide constructive ideas, I savour those. More emerge on how this is the beginning of the end. Doom is nigh.

Then, after about 4 hours, we start getting somewhere. I assume this is because people have actually put the new changes to the test instead of just reacting to the notes. I start being able to grasp at underlying issues to bring up with the team.

So, I present to you Tenno a current list of what I’ll be taking to the Design Table:

-People wonder if the reaction is this strong to one OP ability, maybe the other abilities could use a buff! Let’s review!

- Holy S&@* where is his knockback immunity? (This is a bug, it SHOULD be there.)

- People want to know why the Nerf? Why not make stuff harder? What is being prioritized?

- Trinity is now “a better tank.” What does this mean for the overall balance of the frames?

- As Thor, a community mod, has summarized: "In essence, people seem concerned that what's happening is things are getting balanced towards an even, but weak, playing field". What are your thoughts on that?

- Not on the topic of Rhino, but Banshee not being invulnerable during Soundquake, can we talk about that?

This list is not final, and it doesn’t guarantee changes, but it will serve a purpose.

TL;DR? No - Please read it. Really. I really think if you’ve made a post about Rhino you NEED TO READ THIS. IF you don’t care about Rhino, carry on.

P.S: Scotty you’ll probably read this before I bring it to your office, so be prepared!

 

Your brutal honesty with the community is greatly appreciated! It feels good knowing we're working with a human being that is privy to our feedback rather than what we've seen in other communities where the developers either give disconnected responses ("Thank you all for the encouragement! More to come!") or ignore their base entirely.

You guys remind me of the CoX developers. It feels great knowing you are actively involving the community with the game's development and trusting us with your perspectives, heedless of how they may be received by some, on the matter. :)

I honestly don't have much I can add about the Rhino's style of play since I do not use the frame personally, but integrating an effect like Retribution could make up for the loss in security (and double as a DPS mitigation from neighboring enemies -- because inflicting "dead" on severely wounded but persistent targets would be the best status ailment for damage control.)

I also want to bring up Mag's Bullet Attractor as a Tanking tool. It offers 100% mitigation (though fairly expensive) for its effect duration and affects the entire team. That's a pretty powerful buff and compares well with the Rhino/Trinity discussion. 

I need to do some testing on the Loki / Saryn decoy powers for Tanking purposes since theorycraft dispels part of their effectiveness in this regard since they are destructible. The Loki's Teleport Switch gives its decoy better utility while the Saryn variant Moult is basically for escape purposes only, although by the time I think to use it I'm usually dead already. I finally abolished it from my build because it no longer lasts long enough to work well proactively.

 

I guess the real question overall is - "how should Tanking be balanced?"

Edited May 18, 2013 by Exodess

[KvotheTheArcane1]

How can you find it hard to believe if you only used it when your shields went down?

What where you doing when the shield were not down?

Oh wait.... were your shield down constantly?

 

or... he was being smart and taking cover, when his shields got low he took cover, etc etc etc

[goozilla]

Range of 4 / 4 / 6 / 10 in-game metres. This is increased by Power Range (Reach).

And i dont know what game you have been playing but there is no way that a jump attack from a heavy weapon can kill or almost kill enemies.

 

 

Fraggor with Cold Touch is so @(*()$ abusable, its laughable. The range is around 6m, WITH a guarantee knockdown and slow on getup. What does that mean? It means you can repeatedly jump up and smash down permastunning literally anything non-boss in this game, AND get off a charge attack inbetween, hitting for another 200 or 500 with Killer Blow. Its actually more reliable and energy friendly than using 75/100 energy to do the same thing. And seriously, if you get knocked down, you deserved it.

 

But let's face it, who really runs Reach on Rhino? Reach only affects Rhino Stomp/ Radial Blast, both of which have mediocre AoE ranges to begin with, and Reach costs 9 at max. 9. And to make it viable for higher levels that RESISTS Stomp and Blast (Because, as a Rhino player, you would totally know that they're resisted), you would need Focus, which is another 11. Now we also need Flow and/or Streamline to make his pitiful 150 energy pool workable.

 

You're now left with 2~3 slots, provided that you carry all four skills Rhino has. Because you're totally sounding like you do. Or maybe I'm just assuming.

 

 

Maybe.

 

Edit: And I totally forgot about Continuity, the main mod of his build that affects all four of his skills. Oopsie daisy.

Edited May 18, 2013 by goozilla

[K1LLZ0NE]

How can you find it hard to believe if you only used it when your shields went down?

What where you doing when the shield were not down?

Oh wait.... were your shield down constantly?

 

Sorry, should have been more specific.  I find it hard to believe you use Rhino that often, and that you use his other abilities more than Iron Skin.  When my shields weren't down I was blasting the face off of anything that looked at me wrong.  The good thing about Rhino was that you could jump into the fray and not really worry about micro managing your energy.  You could cause mayhem, and then when you got worn down, pop Iron Skin and stat finding somewhere to hide.  

[Madotsuki]

@DERebecca

To be fair, it's not surprising to see a ton of kneejerk reactions to a nerf significant enough to change the entire concept of an ability, though i'm still sorry you had to see so many of those. However, at the end of the day, the problem is that by making Iron Skin non-invulnerable, you've also essentially taken away the only tanking ability of the tank frame. I admit, invulnerability SEEMS OP, but when you look at all the AoE insta-gib ults among the other Frames, is giving the player a few seconds of invulnerability while still requiring them to fight for themselves to make the most out of the invuln THAT bad? In fact, Iron Skin is one of the more versatile abilities out there. Instead of just throwing a projectile, or pressing an actual instant-win button which kills everything within a 1-mile radius, Iron Skin can be played both offensively and defensively. Tanking/Distracting a boss, rescuing fallen teammates amidst a sea of enemies, charging into the middle of a horde and then chaining a Stomp for maximum effect, or simply saving yourself when there's too much lead going around, Iron Skin was such an interesting skill that allowed players to use it in creative ways. By taking away the invulnerability, you've also taken away most, if not all of the above options, making Iron Skin nothing more than a dull defense buff. At least, IMO, THAT is why I am against what you've done to Iron Skin.

You say you want actual suggestions as to HOW it can be done better? I can think up one right off the top of my head. Give Iron Skin its invulnerability back, nor should you nerf the duration. Instead, simply increase Iron Skin's energy cost to Ult level, or 100 energy. By doing so, players won't be able to spam invulnerability nearly as much, and will have to deploy it strategically, but still maintain all of the above options that go with using Iron Skin. It allows Rhino to maintain its role as a tank frame, but increases challenge by preventing players from leisurely dishing out invulnerability whenever they feel like it. How does that sound?

[Karko]

Market changes.

 

Ideally, rolling this back entirely is the way to go. It's going to alienate a (potentially large) portion of your players and the fact that such a big thing wasn't forewarned is especially galling. If you felt getting some of these items were too easy or the cost too low, I can agree with that but simply increasing the credit cost would've been a far superior alternative to restricting some very sub-standard weapons to blueprints. I'm not opposed to players buying items with platinum but this change appears as nothing more then a sneaky way to squeeze a few extra dollars out of your players and while I might be alone in this, it definitely makes me regret ever spending on founders.

 

But if you're not going to listen to reason, then at least change the blueprint requirements to something remotely tolerable.

 

Bronco - Replace the Alloy Plate with Circuits, Replace the Neurodes with Morphics.

Burston - Replace the Alloy Plate with Circuits and/or Nano Spores.

Boar - Lower Alloy Plate from 550 to 200.

Snipetron - Lower Alloy Plate from 450 to 150.

Dual Skana - Lower Morphics to 1.

Furis - Replace Neurodes with Morphics and reduce to 1. Replace Alloy Plate with Plastids.

Furax - Lower Alloy Plate to 100.

Skana - This needs to be purchasable with Credits for an extremely low price. All starting weapons should match this as long as inventory space is platinum limited.

Latron - Alloy Plate lowered to 150.

Bo - Alloy Plate replaced with Circuits. Orokin Cell with Morphics.

[K1LLZ0NE]

@DERebecca

To be fair, it's not surprising to see a ton of kneejerk reactions to a nerf significant enough to change the entire concept of an ability, though i'm still sorry you had to see so many of those. However, at the end of the day, the problem is that by making Iron Skin non-invulnerable, you've also essentially taken away the only tanking ability of the tank frame. I admit, invulnerability SEEMS OP, but when you look at all the AoE insta-gib ults among the other Frames, is giving the player a few seconds of invulnerability while still requiring them to fight for themselves to make the most out of the invuln THAT bad? In fact, Iron Skin is one of the more versatile abilities out there. Instead of just throwing a projectile, or pressing an actual instant-win button which kills everything within a 1-mile radius, Iron Skin can be played both offensively and defensively. Tanking/Distracting a boss, rescuing fallen teammates amidst a sea of enemies, charging into the middle of a horde and then chaining a Stomp for maximum effect, or simply saving yourself when there's too much lead going around, Iron Skin was such an interesting skill that allowed players to use it in creative ways. By taking away the invulnerability, you've also taken away most, if not all of the above options, making Iron Skin nothing more than a dull defense buff. At least, IMO, THAT is why I am against what you've done to Iron Skin.

You say you want actual suggestions as to HOW it can be done better? I can think up one right off the top of my head. Give Iron Skin its invulnerability back, nor should you nerf the duration. Instead, simply increase Iron Skin's energy cost to Ult level, or 100 energy. By doing so, players won't be able to spam invulnerability nearly as much, and will have to deploy it strategically, but still maintain all of the above options that go with using Iron Skin. It allows Rhino to maintain its role as a tank frame, but increases challenge by preventing players from leisurely dishing out invulnerability whenever they feel like it. How does that sound?

 

Yes, very well said sir.  This is spot on.

[GatsuRage]

The soundquake of banshee... I feel fear to use it now, not only doesnt make enough dmg, but also even enemies right next to me (who are those who should be more affected by the attack) can hit banshe, and I really hope they fix that.. at least make people who are next to the effect BE affected by it, and don't let them hit banshee while her soundquake is on. I know her ultimate is not the main reason I use her (at least me) but from that not to be able to even use the skill at ALL... add more energy cost, nerf the area of effect, nerf the damage, nerf the time of the skill even... anything but make her 100% vulnerable while doin her 1h ultimate... I really hope she gets REbalanced again.

Oh about Rhino, people should stop crying bout it.. 80% of dmg reduction is a tons of dmg reduction. Be glad was -20% and no 40.. or 50 even.

Thanks for read.

Edited May 18, 2013 by GatsuRage

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The soundquake of banshee... I feel fear to use it now, not only doesnt make enough dmg, but also even enemies right next to me (who are those who should be more affected by the attack) can hit banshe, and I really hope they fix that.. at least make people who are next to the effect BE affected by it, and don't let them hit banshee while her soundquake is on. I know her ultimate is not the main reason I use her (at least me) but from that not to be able to even use the skill at ALL...  nerf the area of effect, nerf the damage, nerf the time of the skill even... anything but make her 100% vulnerable while doin her 1h ultimate...  I really hope she gets REbalanced again.

 

Oh about Rhino, people should stop crying bout it.. 80% of dmg reduction is a tons of dmg reduction. Be glad was -20% and no 40.. or 50 even.

Thanks for read.

it's not much vs level 40s and higher.

[Dante2015]

Hi, I've been lurking for a while but since this change I feel it's time to throw a little maths and other bits out there...

Ok, I get it, lots of people are QQing about the rhino nerf without playing the game. Looking at it from a theorycraft perspective what I said in the other thread still stands: when another frame can get about 75% DR passively without a maxed Steel Fiber mod, the ability to gain 80% DR is pretty much pointless, even if this stacks in the most positive way ie: you already have 75% and this stops 80% of the damage after that (leaving you with about 5% incoming damage remaining). It's still almost pointless as the only thing it now has going for it is CC immunity. Other abilities Rhino has can be done better by other frames, so I see Rhino becoming a highly disused frame. As for how to fix this there are a couple of suggestions I offer - first is bring back the original Iron Skin with the duration decreased or the cost increased (swap with ult?), or keep it as is, but with a much longer duration (20 seconds or so) as the primary advantage is now the CC immunity and that IS still fairly useful (against rollers etc).

The Banshee SQ immunity thing -again from a theorycraft perspective- I can see this as making her ult almost useless without the right team backing up, for instance a frost popping a snow globe over her or a Loki throwing out a decoy to draw fire. Or in single player you'll have to hide behind a wall or something. Now, I'm curious about the damage balances, as if the damage has been decreased too much this will make the ult even less useful in higher level areas, where even bog standard enemies can take an ult and keep coming, so in that case maybe add a stronger CC to prevent enemies from just trampling you while you're stuck like that, or decrease the duration (two bursts with a higher damage? get into/out of position faster?). The ability as it is now will merely make you a tasty target for shooty enemies.

On to the market: I know you want people to play the game, but making it so new players have access to only a handful of melee weapons until they played for hundreds of hours (ok a little hyperbole there but I'm trying to make a point) is only going to frustrate. One way around this would be decreasing Alloy Plate costs and/or increasing Alloy Plate drop rates would help ALOT (I've actually noticed it going the other way, places stated on the wiki as being great places to farm alloy plate -and they were- suddenly drying up).

Now, I admit I'm doing a fair amount of speculation based on what information I can glean from the threads and wiki, and I'll get round to playing maybe at some point today to test the waters with Banshee at least but I hope that this post helps you to understand why there has been this massive reaction, even from those that don't even have the Rhino frame (like myself).

[goozilla]

The soundquake of banshee... I feel fear to use it now, not only doesnt make enough dmg, but also even enemies right next to me (who are those who should be more affected by the attack) can hit banshe, and I really hope they fix that.. at least make people who are next to the effect BE affected by it, and don't let them hit banshee while her soundquake is on. I know her ultimate is not the main reason I use her (at least me) but from that not to be able to even use the skill at ALL...  nerf the area of effect, nerf the damage, nerf the time of the skill even... anything but make her 100% vulnerable while doin her 1h ultimate...  I really hope she gets REbalanced again.

 

Oh about Rhino, people should stop crying bout it.. 80% of dmg reduction is a tons of dmg reduction. Be glad was -20% and no 40.. or 50 even.

Thanks for read.

 

@&#(&*@#$#, do you even play Rhino? You don't, so shut the hell up. What if they nerfed Banshee's ult damage down to 100 per hit? Or shrank the range to 5m? Its the same thing Rhino is going through right now. His mainstay skill was just eaten by a very obese man, shat out forcibly and plungered down a port-a-potty, smashed open with a wrecking ball, and then eaten and regurgitated by a rabid dog.