May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[Karko]

Dear DE,

 

Please stop listening to forum whiners. Every single online game has lost of them. Given enough power they will destroy your game. Any increase in difficult, be it via a class being balanced, an overpowered skill being nerfed or any enemy being buffed will be met with variants of "your are killing the game", but you aren't. You created this wonderful game without this torrent of input from pseudo game designers. Take this feed back with a pound of salt and do whatever you feel it's better.

 

Thanks

That's an awful attitude. If we don't voice our complaints, none of the issues raised would ever be resolved. If we didn't care, we'd simply uninstall it and move on, we're "whining" because we're invested in the game and we want it to be the best game it can be.

 

That being said, the Rhino nerf is too heavy handed and the Market changes intolerable.

[FlanShark]

The other thing you could do of course is return the invulnerability but give our supposedly intelligent enemies the AI to switch away from invulnerable targets. :-)

 

*walks away whistling innocently*

[catalyst22]

maybe let rhinos shield regenerate while taking dmg if he has iron skin activated?

[KvotheTheArcane1]

My opinions:

 

Iron skin's damage reduction should be reduced to 60-75% at max rank but should apply its protection to shields as well. The stagger/knockdown immunity needs to be there imo - this is the tankiest feeling thing about rhino. Glad it'll be coming back.

Currently I think it does, you're suggesting to make it even weakerb (just an fyi)

 

 

The people calling for a taunt power I agree with, but that they want it on iron skin boggles my mind. Radial stomp lacks a distinctive role in rhino's toolkit, I say make that the taunt if there has to be one. I'd also suggest keeping its stun properties, but I can't say I'd care if it lost the damage properties it has atm.

Agreed.

 

Personally I hate the idea of rhinos in my games near-passively pulling all the aggro. I like being shot at. I like having to play differently depending on how I want to progress through the level. An energy-cheap(ish) passive(ish) taunt on iron skin would be terrible imho. 

Agreed, a taunt on iron skin would be OP unless it was his ult and cost 100 energy with a slight (2-3 second) duration reduction.

[Valiant]

On a side note unrelated to the Rhino issue. Stretch should be changed back to Reach, it is definitely more fitting and I wouldn't mind knowing why it has changed names. Avatars, we don't have to buy them but the change was unexpected plus 30 Plat is quite expensive, I do think the price should be brought down to somewhere in the 5-15 region if anything. 

 

Have a Rhino myself, have yet to use him. However, from what I understood and witnessed Iron Skin allowed him to live up to his strengths which were melee. In the higher levels this is important but it's made that even more ridiculously difficult now so the Rhino can't play to his strengths unlike other players. 

[Appeased]

Why do people say that Ember is a better tank than Rhino now?

 

Ember max damage reduction = 70% with 13 second duration

 

Rhino max damage reduction  = 80% with 15 second duration

Because Ember's max is 91% with Focus, which Rhino seemingly can't use with Iron Skin (Although no one has responded to my earlier post to confirm this).

[Mremaknu]

I haven't ever played Rhino (don't see the point) so I've nothing to offer there beyond it appearing that the devs have overcompensated for whatever problem they've perceived to exist without offering anything to counterbalance what they've done.

 

I would honestly be happier if things like the core movement mechanics--especially jumping, wall-running, wall-climbing, and sliding--were made more reliable before we get another update to make the sound of bolt ammunition impacting a Moa different from impacting flesh. Yes, I noticed, and hey, it's neat and all, but I still can't trust my frame to jump over a broken fan-hole yet.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Mremaknu

[Superkoco]

For me, a good balance for Rhino will be:

 

- Rhino charge 25 cost

- New skill- Shields restore at 50 cost. (Lvl 1-20% / lvl 2-40% / lvl 3 60%)

- Rhino stomp 75 cost

- Iron Skin (Old iron skin, but shields not recharging while IS Active) 100 cost.

 

With this, if you want the old IS profits cost 150 Energy.

[MrTetsuo]

First of all, I'm sure they already *know* they should take feedback with a grain of salt, they do not need advice from a "pseudo game designer".

 

Second, disregarding any and all posts in this thread as "whining" shows just how in your own crusade to feel superior you are in your own way contradicting DE's policy of listening to players (in your case derogatively called whiners); making it so that you are actually disagreeing with DE's  stand in taking player feedback and become one of the whiners yourself. (since your logic seems to be that anyone who disagrees with DE = whiner)

 

Whereas you have a point that people tend to hyperbolize any and all changes, as small as they may be, as immediate and certain doom; you yourself (again) fall into your own accusation by preaching doom.

 

As for "you created this wonderful game without this torrent of input from pseudo game designers", I beg to differ, since many changes have been brought on by the community, making your statement false.

 

The game is fundamentally the same since launch of the open beta, There have been changes and adjustment but nothing major that came from the "community". The core of the game was designed with very little community feed back (aside from closed beta players), hence my point about the game being the success that it is without feed back from pseudo game designers. You may not like it, but that's the reality.

 

As any online game, after every change that make the game an inch harder, you have the exact same response from a vocal forum crowd: you are killing the game, if you don't revert, people are going to quit. If the company always abide by this feed back, you end up with an unbalanced and boring game with very little challenge. Anyone knows that this is what can potentially kill a game. If whining is to derogatory for you, I'm sorry, but that's what it is. Because, come on, it's an ability that grants total immunity for minutes under the proper conditions (energy artifact/energy spheres) which is now "only 80%". The change is completely reasonable and yet, people have the balls to come here and "complain" about it? If that's not whining, I really don't know what it is, and whatever it may be, it's certainly not constructive feedback. The OP speaks for itself: people where complaining minutes after the patch release (ie, they had not even played the game yet).

[FlanShark]

I haven't ever played Rhino (don't see the point) so I've nothing to offer there beyond it appearing that the devs have overcompensated for whatever problem they've perceived to exist without offering anything to counterbalance what they've done.

 

I would honestly be happier if things like the core movement mechanics--especially jumping, wall-running, wall-climbing, and sliding--were made more reliable before we get another update to make the sound of bolt ammunition impacting a Moa different from impacting flesh. Yes, I noticed, and hey, it's neat and all, but I still can't trust my frame to jump over a broken fan-hole yet.

 

I wish I could upvote this twice

[Sirabot]

For me, a good balance for Rhino will be:

 

- Rhino charge 25 cost

- New skill- Shields restore at 50 cost. (Lvl 1-20% / lvl 2-40% / lvl 3 60%)

- Rhino stomp 75 cost

- Iron Skin (Old iron skin, but shields not recharging while IS Active) 100 cost.

 

With this, if you want the old IS profits cost 150 Energy.

See this? I like this. Because it makes sense.

[Judopunch]

My biggest fear is that the development team will make the same mistake that was made in diablo 3, difficulty measured in how effectively monsters circumvent mechanics to one shot you. High level defense missions need Rino and trinity and frost with those specific ability a because they couldn't deal with the absurd amount of damage that the monsters were dealing. The next part of this 'difficulty' scale is dealing with monsters who take several clips of amo to kill, requiring a trinity/nix to have them kill themselves. (Ya I was watching that live stream)

The nerf to the Rino makes me feel better because it telegraphs that DE may be headed down a different path, instead of just cranking up enemy damage and health and calling it 'skill' to overcome.

Keep up the good work.

[CrimsonSpectre]

My suggestion for making Rhino viable again without just bringing back the pre-nerf one, which is not likely to happen.

 

Restore the pre-nerf Iron Skin. Swap Iron Skin with Radial Blast. Neither of his abilities besides IS ever was worth the energy. Charge was too weak, Blast as well, and also had a tiny radius, Stomp was just pointless. By making RB spammable, as second ability, and IS require more energy, you'll make Rhino an overall better frame, and not just "the one with god mode". 

 

Rhino is not the only frame with the ability to negate all damage. Why is he the only one getting nerfed?

Edited May 18, 2013 by CrimsonSpectre

[Feam]

there isnt a time in all of human history where nerfs were taken well.

He's right, you know.

 

Earth Patchnotes - Update 0.71 Beta[*]Changed permanent immunity on humans to 80% Damage reduction (You can die now).[*]Removed the "Knowledge Fruit" Glitch. All abusers have been issued a warning.[*]Buffed brains resulting in increased insecurity - You can buy a leaf cosmetic in the ingame market.[*]'Soft launched' Open-Beta, removing all Developer Zones privileges from Beta testers (Get out of my heaven).[*]Nerfed snakes

Nobody liked these nerfs, but I think it is pretty balanced right now.

[Sirabot]

there isnt a time in all of human history where nerfs were taken well.

This isn't just any other nerf though, it's a complete playstyle change. There is no real reason to put yourself through the stress of actually using iron skin now, because you still have to pay attention to your shields and health. You can't go berserk anymore, or you'll become a liability to your team. At best you're paying 50 energy now, to just run and gun for the sake of a few shots bouncing off of you but still managing to chip away at you. Jumping in  to melee hordes of enemies now would be considered "playing stupid" unless you have a trinity there to patch you up. But she could just as easily take your place in melee and not be a liability.

 

For a few moments I didn't have to dart my eyes back and forth to my health and shields, I was free, and it was fun.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Ehrlich

[Kalenath]

I don't play Rhino much.He is too slow for my usual playstyle, so I won't comment on him except to say he DID need some tweaking. Was it right? Was it wrong? Was the nerf too strong? To little? I'll leave that to people who play him more and the devs.

 

Banshee... was OP. No question. I saw several games where players (including me I am ashamed to admit) ran into HUGE groups of mobs to hit Sound Quake and laugh at them.

 

Now you have to think before you do it. Am I protected? Can that infested ancient disruptor run up to me (slide actually, they don't run. But they SLIDE faster than bullets it seems :( ) Where is rest of the team? If they have all gone off I am defenseless while using this and will die in @ three hits from Ancients  if I am max modded for Continuity, Flow and Focus. (tested. One hit from a disruptor, two from healers, squish goes the Banshee. This doesn't even COUNT Toxics which are a problem in and of themselves. Poison needs to be looked at. ) Grinneer and Corpus at least get staggered by it so I have a chance to run away after it finishes.

 

So I don't use it now unless 1) I am WAY up on something when facing Infested or 2) BEHIND something they can't flank easily against Corpus or Grinneer, or 3) the team is around to revive me WHEN, (Yes, WHEN, not IF) I go down.

 

 

Now I am using Sonar and sonic boom a lot more than sound quake. The risks just don't justify it now. It still clears low level mobs like nobody's business, but anything more powerful than a leaper and I am lunch.

 

I don't think it should be a total invulnerability, but what we have now makes it VERY dangerous to use in most situations. Maybe keep the disruptors from knocking you back/draining your energy while it is active?

Edited May 18, 2013 by Kalenath

[Se7ense7en]

Just played at Tethys, Saturn as a Banshee (lvl 30, overclocked, shields/hp = 500/285). She was killed during Sound Quake by a single heavy gunner lvl 8. 

 

So, because of that, I can state that Sound Quake is not just ineffective, its dangerous to use.

 

Requesting rollback.

[SlyCoopa]

I was finally able to build the Rhino just a week ago. The only skill that I honestly looked forward to using was Iron Skin. Every other Warframe has unique skills for themselves. The unique skill for Rhino was Iron Skin. The ability to turn invincible for a period of time was pretty BA; it was a really tank skill. I mean, you could put all the other skills into other Warframes but it may not seem like a tank skill. Iron skin on the other hand, gives Rhino the "tank" feel. Now that he's vulnerable to toxic and disruptors, he's just become a slow Warframe that isn't so unique.

 

A tank is supposed to be someone who can take on damage without actually getting damaged. IMO, there is no point in having a Rhino if he can't tank and Rhino has been completely ruined for me.

 

That does not mean that I felt it was pretty OP when I was using Rhino. Yes, it was really easy to solo levels once things got tough because, I could just have energy syphon on and spam the S*** out of iron skin. So maybe just make Iron Skin cost more energy. 

[neKroMancer]

OK, after playing a few Sedna missions - I'm in for some Rhino feedbacks.

 

As we all already know, Stun/Toxic/Disruptor immunity probably aren't the intended change but bugs associated with the balance change. This boils the change in Iron skin down to : 80% damage reduction. To be frank about it, I don't really feel the impact on Rhino that much since lately I found him to be more valuable with CC abilities which stop incoming damage and leave the mobs flying/knock downed - effectively Iron skin for my teammates as well. 80% combined with high shield/armor still makes him totally viable, just require more tuning in term of mods.  

 

What Rhino really needs is an aggro-drawing ability to replace radial blast. Radial blast and Stomp serve a similar function, AOE stun. I have always found this power redundant consider that Stomp can do everything larger and longer than Radial blast. Replace Radial Blast with taunt ability which will make Rhino more traditional 'tank' - absorb huge amount of damage while dishing out moderate amount. 

 

How a tank should tank is a problem here. I think many Rhino players simply use Iron skin as FOO strategy for too long and the sudden change makes them uneasy or change how they play - hence the feedback. They aren't wrong but from designer's view - Taking away FOO strategy without adding more viable options isn't a good move.

[neKroMancer]

I was finally able to build the Rhino just a week ago. The only skill that I honestly looked forward to using was Iron Skin. Every other Warframe has unique skills for themselves. The unique skill for Rhino was Iron Skin. The ability to turn invincible for a period of time was pretty BA; it was a really tank skill. I mean, you could put all the other skills into other Warframes but it may not seem like a tank skill. Iron skin on the other hand, gives Rhino the "tank" feel. Now that he's vulnerable to toxic and disruptors, he's just become a slow Warframe that isn't so unique.

 

A tank is supposed to be someone who can take on damage without actually getting damaged. IMO, there is no point in having a Rhino if he can't tank and Rhino has been completely ruined for me.

 

That does not mean that I felt it was pretty OP when I was using Rhino. Yes, it was really easy to solo levels once things got tough because, I could just have energy syphon on and spam the S*** out of iron skin. So maybe just make Iron Skin cost more energy. 

 

Nope, tank is a class that takes less damage and allow other to deal damage in a relatively safe fashion.

[GTG3000]

Go team hyperboles! Making arguing available for everyone since invention of crude statistics.

 

Didn't really use rhino, but if he chugs out 90% protection without Focus, then he's still awesome. (and still allows to rush in wihout a care in the world).

 

A thing that worries me most - you're not going to nerf Vauban, are you?

[SinrOne]

130 or so hours behind playing this game, Rhino being my first built warframe and also one of my favorites..

I feel like its the end of Rhino playing for me just now, i sometimes took it to infested defense for its iron skin ( Never felt like any of the other abilities did anything worth using tbh), but does the only good ability for rhino have any use anymore? 

 

Why would i pick Rhino instead of like Banshee what i have now (Im a bit sad panda now that 4th ability is now useless), who can use Sonar and then shoot the ancients from further away? Actually now to think, any of the warframes i have now ( Frost, Mag, Banshee ) will be better in defense. 

 

I wouldn't like to sell my Rhino.. But after that nerf i don't feel like it has any purpose anymore, ive read few topics about the Vauban basically being the reason for Rhino being nerfed, so people would get that instead. I wouldn't be surprised, because it does the same sort of things with different animations. 

 

 

You should mention the market changes in the topic you just made Rebecca, people are hating on the change too.. New players will have really bad times after that change. Please dont get the dollar goggles, i have faith in you of not being sell outs.. I bought platinum and such just because i wasnt forced into it, now it seems its drifting to that "Pay2Win" style.

 

 

Slightly about Banshee (Tested it multiple times today), its quite hard to obtain and should be at least some way abit special. The nerf of the 4th ability, its a bit harsh. I have focus on max and the ability maxed out and it doesn't even kill level 27 Grineer, not only that but try to do your ultimate while playing defense in middle of enemies, what will happen is that you die.

Doesn't really make any sense, should be i hiding behind a wall all the time, spamming the so called "ultimate" ability?

 

I hope this was constructive enough!  

 

 

Like i already said, i have faith in you DE people.. From the time i started to play to this point, i have always thought you were one of the best development team there is, not only in F2P games. Don't put on the dollar goggles.. Listen the community on changes and stay as you used to be.

 

Thanks and cheers from Finland.

[ragdollomega]

What I don't understand is that pretty much all of the warframes had atleast 1 "get out of jail free card" skill for when a fight takes a sudden turn for the worse. Iron Skin was Rhino's. dash is unreliable (can be stopped short by enemies), radial blast has ineffective range (enemies outside that could keep damage on you), and for stomp it doesn't last long enough (Rhino isn't fast enough for a proper get away in that time). The only other exception now are Banshee and any other warframe made vulnarable now while having extended ult animation.

For Rhino, bring it back to how it was but shorten the duration or add a cooldown as many others have suggested.

[Caernarvon]

You wouldn't get so many kneejerk reactions if you had any idea what balance is past wildly stabbing random parts of the game with an oversized knife branded "nerf". Remember the recent Gorgon and Hek fiasco where not only did those weapons become useless, but the Hek nerf barfed on the other shotguns and gave them the range of a melee weapon? Sure it was fixed, but the fact that you can throw wild balance alterations without even thinking makes you look stupid and clueless.

Nevermind that you do not even spend 10mn testing your patches (people near instantly found ability breaking bugs in it), you admonish people for criticizing that.

Also, whoever thought that forcing alloy plate requirements and BPs down new players' throats on formerly cheapo market guns seems to want the game dead.

[goozilla]

Go team hyperboles! Making arguing available for everyone since invention of crude statistics.

 

Didn't really use rhino, but if he chugs out 90% protection without Focus, then he's still awesome. (and still allows to rush in wihout a care in the world).

 

A thing that worries me most - you're not going to nerf Vauban, are you?

 

 

Focus doesn't stack with Iron Skin.

 

Played a few rounds of Xini, and ran around Pluto and Ceres for a bit, with this layout:

 

 

 

 

Rhino is a @(*()$ liability in Xini. In Pluto/Ceres, only thing that kept me alive was my Hek and Fragor jump spam. So why should I be using Rhino when I could just run Ember, slap on Focus/Redirection/Flow/Streamline/Continuity/Stretch and turn on World on Fire and Overheat, and literally run through everything dealing 520 a tick to normals, 1040 to infested?