Nerf All The Syndicate Weapons Or Buff The Secura Dual Cestra (I Hope For The Latter)

[DelialFallen]

I agree that the weapon which gives consistant Radiation procs and shield restore is in dire need of a buff.

 

*wink*wink*

[nms.]

 

 

     Are we using the same weapons? Cause, you know, I'd tell you how tactical potato described it, but idk if DE would think its appropriate. Let's just say that the dual cestra are infamous for their S#&$ty recoil. Try them without steady hands. 

Yep, same weapons. Now i tell you, try the ak in cs go, then tell me which weapon in warframe has worse recoil. Try the desert eagle in cs go then tell me how well you fare, if you are complaining about the dual cestra in this game. Liked the steady hands comment though, creative. Maybe you need to start playing games that have better shooting mechanics, then you will find aiming in warframe trivial, where you can run, jump and fly around mid air shooting with no penalty on spread whatsoever, where there is very little recoil, where you can empty an entire clip on all the rifles with 0 recoil compensation from beginning to end.

 

So much for wanting more "skilled" gameplay, complaining about the recoil of the dual cestra, this forum...

 

People complain about spam 4, but no chance in hell they would get to control recoil, no no that's too hard papi too hard.

Edited May 26, 2015 by nms64

[TotallyLagging]

I agree that the weapon which gives consistant Radiation procs and shield restore is in dire need of a buff.

 

*wink*wink*

Yes, and pre-buff Rakta Ballistica is super okay because it has Blight proc right?

 

No, just no. They ignored the darn thing for 6 months because of that, please don't make the same mistake again.

[Gr33hn]

The Securas are not actually the worst at the moment, I would say the Sancti Castanas are the worst syndicate sidearms right now by a fairly wide margin. Yeah, I am sure that someone will bring up WF builders paper stats of 90k burst DPS blah, blah, but that theoretical DPS can NEVER be achieved in game, they will reach 10-12k before you have to reload.

 

But back to Securas.

 

The problems with Securas i.e spool up, recoil, projectile travel time, ammo economy and rediculously long reload time are not made up for with high damage. 

 

I seriously dont understand DEs balancing, the easiest to use weapons does the most damage and as such dont require any utility mods and can be built for optimal damage, the hard to use weapons though they do LESS damage as well as require utility mods which reduces the damage even more.

 

As I see it DE can go about buffing the Securas in a few ways, bump up the damage enough for them to be rewarding to use despite the disadvantages or remove some disadvantages, making them easier to use and leave the damage as is or a mixture.

 

 

My personal pick would be to reduce reload to 2,5 seconds, bump up the damage slightly and increase the ammo pool to, say something like 400.

Edited May 26, 2015 by VikingoX

[Tenno-nymous]

Sweet baby J. all that gun needs is faster spool time.

[Ironlixivium]

Yep, same weapons. Now i tell you, try the ak in cs go, then tell me which weapon in warframe has worse recoil. Try the desert eagle in cs go then tell me how well you fare, if you are complaining about the dual cestra in this game. Liked the steady hands comment though, creative. Maybe you need to start playing games that have better shooting mechanics, then you will find aiming in warframe trivial, where you can run, jump and fly around mid air shooting with no penalty on spread whatsoever, where there is very little recoil, where you can empty an entire clip on all the rifles with 0 recoil compensation from beginning to end.

 

So much for wanting more "skilled" gameplay, complaining about the recoil of the dual cestra, this forum...

 

People complain about spam 4, but no chance in hell they would get to control recoil, no no that's too hard papi too hard.

 

     I agree, warframe's aiming mechanic is very different from cs:go's. but they're also completely different games, and with skill you can one shot people with almost any weapon in cs:go. the same cannot be said for warframe. It's apples and oranges, and our dual cestra's recoil still sucks. just because you can compare it to a realistic terrorist simulator doesn't mean it should apply to a sci-fi featuring cyborg ninjas. I never asked for more skilled gameplay and if I had, S#&$ recoil would not be my idea of a skill requirement. 

 

-snip-

 

Heh heh, you got it wronnng I was only gonna mention the fact that sancti have a 100% electric proc no matter what you mod them for. That's why they deserve 2nd worst, not worst :/ the secura dual cestra have crap secondary stats and just it's damage to make up for it.

 

edit: Ignore all the errors and stuff please, try to just get the main idea, I'm quite tired.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Ironlixivium

[rroorr]

I too would like to see it buffed, it's a fun weapon. I think what it needs the most is a drastic ammo capacity boost because of how fast it eats up ammo.

[TwevOWNED]

The Securas are not actually the worst at the moment, I would say the Sancti Castanas are the worst syndicate sidearms right now by a fairly wide margin. Yeah, I am sure that someone will bring up WF builders paper stats of 90k burst DPS blah, blah, but that theoretical DPS can NEVER be achieved in game, they will reach 10-12k before you have to reload.

That's the thing though, the Castanas are not straightforward weapons like the Cestra and the Gammacor. It's a niche weapon, which is why it's not being compared to the others at the moment. In the case of the Cestra, they are only raw damage with no other interesting effects like the Castanas have. And it comes up short in the role of weapon it fills. The Marelok, and Gammacor do everything it does but better. There are no side qualities that it has, unlike the Castanas, which promote use over the others other than "they look cool."

[Ironlixivium]

That's the thing though, the Castanas are not straightforward weapons like the Cestra and the Gammacor. It's a niche weapon, which is why it's not being compared to the others at the moment. In the case of the Cestra, they are only raw damage with no other interesting effects like the Castanas have. And it comes up short in the role of weapon it fills. The Marelok, and Gammacor do everything it does but better. There are no side qualities that it has, unlike the Castanas, which promote use over the others other than "they look cool."

This guy.

The sancti aren't straight dps and have utility. Something secura lack.

[Latronico]

The only problem I found in Secura dual Cestra is the ammo efficiency. Recoil is good, these pistols can reach a really high DPS value when properly modded. The real problem is that in 1 or 2 minutes of full auto fire the entire ammo pool is over.

[Revel72]

Secura Dual Cestra is just screaming for buff. (This will help me sell my Secura Dual Cestras... *Insert evil laugh*)

[fatpig84]

Secura only need this.

 

410 reserve ammo (like Akzani)

Faster projectile flight speed (80 to 100 would be ideal)

Reload speed of 2.5 seconds.
 

DPS wise it is actually fine.

It is not bad at all.

 

http://goo.gl/syae02

 

Even with my planned current build.

It can still hit 20k DPS with steady hands and Seeker.

2 utility mods, that is unheard of for most guns.

 

And I can still drop either one for even moar on paper DPS.

Edited May 26, 2015 by fatpig84

[Ironlixivium]

The only problem I found in Secura dual Cestra is the ammo efficiency. Recoil is good, these pistols can reach a really high DPS value when properly modded. The real problem is that in 1 or 2 minutes of full auto fire the entire ammo pool is over.

 

It has one of the worst recoils in the game....no, it's not fine...It's a massive unneeded hindrance.

 

Anyway, they still don't have the same dps as the other syndicate dps weapons.

 

-snip-

 

I already showed you, though...

 

It's not about where they are compared to every other weapon. It's about where they are compared to the other syndicate dps weapons, and (as I showed you) they're the worst ones.

[arsyadpower]

Vaykor Marelok FTW!!!!!!!!!

[xenozid]

dont compare it to other syndicate weapons, compare it to the next best full auto secondaries:

http://goo.gl/l9Cw5R secura cestra

http://goo.gl/72oE5f wraith vipers

http://goo.gl/MlLP8M dex furis

http://goo.gl/MLqwUH aksomati

true sustained DPS builds with seeker and pistol mutation instead of on paper DPS (i.e. firerate speedup instead of ammo mutator): as you can see it comes out on top in its category. you could even get steady hands or a reload mod in the cestras instead of an element and still be in line with the other three weapons if you want a more "traditional" feel. but top DPS (in its nieche) and a great syndicate AoE on top are balanced out with recoil and reload time. in my book they are a great weapon with a unique feel well worth the forma investment.

[Ironlixivium]

dont compare it to other syndicate weapons, compare it to the next best full auto secondaries:

http://goo.gl/l9Cw5R secura cestra

http://goo.gl/72oE5f wraith vipers

http://goo.gl/MlLP8M dex furis

http://goo.gl/MLqwUH aksomatiIo mutator): as you can see it comes out on top in its category. you could even get steady hands or a reload mod in the cestras instead of an element and still be in line with the other three weapons if you want a more "traditional" feel. but top DPS (in its nieche) and a great syndicate AoE on top are balanced out with recoil and reload time. in my book they are a great weapon with a unique feel well worth the forma investment.

 

     But that's not the issue I'm pointing out...I don't really care where it lies with other weapons that look similar, It should just as good as any other syndicate weapon. My logic is simple: if someone wants to play warframe and chooses a random syndicate to get to rank 5 in (say their a casual player and that's all they can do for a while) why should their syndicate weapon be worse than the other syndicate weapons just because they didn't look it up? It's not like they can just transfer the reputation, they're locked into that. The syndicate weapons should be equal because of this. DE PLEASE buff it D: I hate how it's completely overshadowed...

[Ironlixivium]

Nah. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/202273-make-your-an-cestras-proud-secura-update/

 

Can you give some specific situations where you're having problems using them? We'd be glad to help you make adjustments so you can enjoy them.

 

     Um...Again...that's not the issue. It's not about their current strength. as you can see in my original post, I showed that they're not up to par, being completely overshadowed by the synoid, a weapon it SHOULD be on par with, considering they're both straight damage dps secondaries, and require the same amount of dedication to obtain.

 

Also, my build uses similar mods but maxed o.o

[fatpig84]

 

I already showed you, though...

 

It's not about where they are compared to every other weapon. It's about where they are compared to the other syndicate dps weapons, and (as I showed you) they're the worst ones.

 

And tell me which syndicate weapon it loses out to ?

 

Synoid ?

Well everyone loses to that.

But it pays through the nose for ammo consumption and delayed damage (it's damage is calculated only after 1 second of constant firing). The delayed damage is a BIG negative for it. Meaning you waste a lot more ammo just to kill 1 enemy (your damage isn't counted per bullet, it displays as per bullet but damage is calculate ONLY after you fire for 1 second).

 

 

Rakta ? 

On paper Rakta can hit a very very impressive 40k+ charged DPS if you spam charged shots.

But as an avid bow user, I know most people don't spam their charged attacks.

So again your DPS is really really low.

 

Secondly, Rakta doesn't have great crit chance to begin with.

It has great charge time which factors into great DPS. 

But in reality, your bolts don't even pack the same 20k to 30k damage arrow as a Dread or Paris prime.

So you have to fire several times to get that same raw damage. It won't be noticeable early on, but late game where enemy HP is sky high, you will feel it.

 

 

Vakyor ?

Don't compare it to the Vaykor as well, since Vaykor DPS is semi auto, meaning half the time you are dealing only 60% to 70% of your DPS in real life. That is why I don't bother building the Vaykor for damage, I built it for status. 

At least that is reliable even though I have a 1 in 6 chance of scoring the proc I want.

 

 

Telos ?

Same for the Telos. Telos have again great DPS on paper, but unless you macro fire (which has being hard cap recently), you are again doing 60% to 70% of your DPS. And that is for a computer that is running WF on a smooth 60 FPS.

 

 

Secura DPS is straight up reliable and wins out against these 2 if you built for pure damage. 

It only needs QOL mods to help it get there. If without QOL mods, my Loki still finds it simple enough to go invisible and upload the cannon into their faces. Not too difficult.

 

 

So before you argue further about comparing damage to other syndicate weapons, tell me, do you even factor in their short comings first ?

Edited May 26, 2015 by fatpig84

[Ironlixivium]

-snip-

 

     Why would you ask all this when you could just look at the OP? I gave a FULL comparison of secura vs synoid, which are actually VERY similar atm. I'll just summarize it for you:

The secura is completely overshadowed by the synoid on paper. then you have the issues that are not on paper:

the secura has crappy recoil, slow projectiles, and requires a spool up

the synoid has a limited range of 20m

Literally the only thing the secura has over a synoid is the possibility to hit targets beyond 20 meters. STOCK

 

But this is almost impossible to do when you have such a horrible recoil and slow projectile speed.

Of course, you could fix it with mods :D put on the reach mod for the synoid, suddenly enemies are almost never out of range, then put on the proj speed mod and recoil mod for cestra, but oh look! we're sacraficing two more slots for the secura, while the synoid only needs one, giving the secura even WORSE dps. 

 

Honestly, if you could just take the time to look at the OP, you would be able to see just how outclassed the secura is. I took everything into account, showed stats, gave a suggestion, and explained all my reasoning. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Ironlixivium

[Heidrek]

Those two weapons just have very bad mechanics, and damage.

[MechaTails]

If your argument is they're "outclassed", whatever that means, they still hit like a runaway truck so your argument is moot. They're excellent weapons, so again, I ask you give us specific examples of what problems you're having so we can help you adapt to those situations.

[nms.]

     I agree, warframe's aiming mechanic is very different from cs:go's. but they're also completely different games, and with skill you can one shot people with almost any weapon in cs:go. the same cannot be said for warframe. It's apples and oranges, and our dual cestra's recoil still sucks. just because you can compare it to a realistic terrorist simulator doesn't mean it should apply to a sci-fi featuring cyborg ninjas. I never asked for more skilled gameplay and if I had, S#&$ recoil would not be my idea of a skill requirement. 

 

Cs go is not a "realistic" terrorist simulator, you seem to be confused with call of duty or battefield in any of their 435284732423 iterations. Counter strike has never focused on realism. It's not sh*t recoil just because you can't handle it. It should apply to warframe, when people keep trash threading the forums moaning that the game is too easy, too boring, no skill, and all other sorts of similar topics, but amusing when it comes to anything that requires a tad bit of skill, then the world comes to an end (see manic, see excal rework, see marelok recoil, see akvasto/vasto recoil, see akjagara recoil and now, dual cestra recoil). You can't compensate for it, that doesn't mean the recoil is bad, you are just... not capable of controlling it, it's not even hard. Use something else, with no recoil so you can hold that fire button to your heart's content, or let me give you back that handy line you threw before, how about you use steady hands? You are the one complaining about the recoil, there's a mod for that.

 

Warframe is also a shooter, it should have good shooting mechanics, yeah, the gameplay between cs go and warframe is different, that does not take out the fact that warframe has rifles, shotguns and pistols that are in dire need of recoil rework to bring them out the noob mode they are in. And with the advent of pvp, noobie shooting should go, same for the aimbot melee mod. Right now, shooting is no different than spamming 4 (the current nerf meta), just click and hold, you don't even have to aim precisely, just spray that sh*t horizontally, circles or in X pattern mid air and you'll take out 20 enemies close together quickly in any map of the starchart at its default level range and even the void before level 40-50ish. There aren't even complex recoil patterns, all of them are linear, either up or slightly diagonal. But, of course, nobody suggests more skill for shooting when they create a nerf thread for their own benefit on a frame or abilities that "trivialize" the game, the mmorpg key tap and tap is strong in here. "Yeah, uh, we want more skill, let's balance the game so nerf this and that, but, no, we want super easy shooting". That's not how that mythical balance works.

 

Buff the dpb? maybe, so it's not that dependent on fire rate, although it can put out nice numbers in dps against ferrite and alloy right now, not like the telos, but they are nice numbers. Reduce the spool up? i'm in, maybe to that of the soma prime, it would allow people to use the weapon for some damage, instead of having to use a bump of 134% in fire rate so that it can start shooting almost right away.

Edited May 27, 2015 by nms64

[DelialFallen]

Yes, and pre-buff Rakta Ballistica is super okay because it has Blight proc right?

 

No, just no. They ignored the darn thing for 6 months because of that, please don't make the same mistake again.

 

I'm sorry you consider mini-chaos to be lacking.

 

The Secura Dual Cestra are very useful when control is desired over damage due to the proc.  It's a very good sidearm to complement a hard-hitting primary.

 

I'm not against a sensible buff, but I genuinely don't get the upset over its damage being lower than other Syndicate weapons.

[Urlan]

I read your opening post and the edits to it Ironlixivium, I just do not agree with your comparison or your findings based on that comparision. While I agree that the Secura Dual Cestra could use buffs, I do not think it is in such a position that is the weakest of the syndicate weapons by any degree or even a weak weapon in general. As said by other posters, the weapon is actually in a position as the strongest full auto dual pistol. The gun could be improved slightly with better ammo and reload and would easily still be one of the better secondaries as all the syndicate sidearms are.

 

Your position is that gun needs extreme buffs, I can respect that it feels that way to you and your perferred way of playing; but that doesn't make the weapon weak or prove that other weapons outperform it in such an exaggerated manner.

[(PSN)MonkeysUnkle1]

I wouldn't mind seeing a recoil decrease and a spool up increase, but other than those I don't think it needs anything.