Old Conclaves Vs. New Conclaves Chp.1 Overall

[Aciaj613]

After playing the new conclaves for a little while, enough to the point where I think I'm ready to provide my opinion.

 

Playing a lot of matches so far I would like the old Conclaves back as of current with the direction that this new one is going.

 

or at-least allow both types of conclaves to exist.

 

What I have down here is a personal opinion based of my experiences and some comparisons that I observed when I played many different matches.

 

 

I'm going to divide comparisons into these categories: Overall, Modding, Combat, Balance, Community, Options.

 

I'll be spacing out these topics between different posts so I can work on one section at a time for when I have time.

 

 

 

I'M GIVING THE HEADS UP NOW BECAUSE THERE WILL NOT BE A TL;DR. I FEEL LIKE I NEED TO GO INTO FULL DETAIL FOR MY FEEDBACK TO BE FULLY UNDERSTOOD FROM MY PERSPECTIVE.

 

 

 

Overall:

 

 

Overview: Conclaves has a Meta, much like the normal game, much like many PvP games. Thing is Conclaves in the first place didn't have too much variety for the strong Meta Presence BUT most conclavers have always had a meta from day one. There have been many different ages of weapons based off what's powerful at the time.It almost feels like though that the old conclaves offered more play-styles outside of the meta in the past.

 

Lets take a look at the variety of differences between New Vs Old.

 

 

New: The new conclaves has a extremely strong meta presence and it almost feels like you NEED to follow it. I'm unsure if it is just because I have trouble making any load-out work effectively or if it's the fact of how certain weapons are just direct upgrades over others. The reason I feel a little upset at the variety is because of the way that things are currently balanced it almost feels like there are just straight upgrades to certain weapons and that tanky warframes completely dominate the light ones. There also just feels like there is a lack of creative loadouts with the constant restrictions to both stats and weapons; examples revolve around the limited damage system, lack of status effects, critical chances are gone, and mods are just linear upgrades rather than specializing your warframe or weapon.

 

 

Old: The old conclaves had a strong meta presence but it still had room available for you to have some creative load-outs and come up with your own fighting style. The major stat difference between the warframes weighed heavily in the factor of your survival and your power. With the unrestricted modding system you could build your weapon or warframe into many different creative types of weapons. You can build a weapon to take out tanks, have a high crit chance, rely on status effects, be well-balanced, and just plain pressure people with a constant barrage of bullets. What made this so good in my opinion is because of this system being so unbalanced it is what made the old conclaves feel like it was balanced. 

 

Also one major thing that I appreciated about the old conclaves is the fact it felt like Warframe, it didn't take any elements that were in warframe's core game-play out and it just felt good.

 

Strange I know but I just felt that the old conclaves had a bit more of a charm that just kept me playing it.

 

 

Conclusion:

 

I prefer the old conclaves much more just as an overall experience because it felt more like warframe. You rely on quick agile movements, mod smarts, and your wits to counter many different tactics and attempt to cover all possibilities of the opposition.

 

I will be going into detail of the different aspects of the comparisons.

 

Don't be fooled, there is some aspects I like about the new conclaves, like how it is open for newer players to join in and be apart of the PvP. I just don't like how the newer conclaves just doesn't feel like warframe, it feels like something else that just doesn't want me to come back.

 

I only wish for both types of game-modes to be available for those who prefer old or new so everyone can enjoy what they want to play.

 

It would be awesome rename the old conclaves into the beta name "Coliseum" and have it be un-related to the new conclaves.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Aciaj613

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

My friend you are beautiful. 

 

Thanks for comparing the two so nicely. Could not have said it better myself

 

1.0 ftw

[Aciaj613]

My friend you are beautiful. 

 

Thanks for comparing the two so nicely. Could not have said it better myself

 

1.0 ftw

Thank you for that comment.

[TheBrsrkr]

While I love the PvP 2.0, 1.0 was the place to be when you were just plain bored and wanted to kill your friends. I understand why it needed to go, though. Since the inception of the Kohm, a meta that could not be beaten was formed. Hopefully, eventually all weapons will be balanced for PvP, and it would return to being the smörgåsbord of death and fun it once was.

[DrBorris]

PvP 1.0 was a mess, if you were thrown against someone who did not follow the honor code you were doomed to a spam fest. However, when the code was followed (which it most often was) the PvP system was the most intense thing I have ever done in any game. Simple solution, just turn that honor code into the actual hard rules. Thus will never happen though, too many people have grown to like the new, very standard, PvP system. Best case scenario IMO would be for DE to make two types of PvP, one that was basic call like PvP 1.0 (very low TTK and very high reliance on movement) and then the current PvP 2.0.

[Nighttide77]

-snip-

 

Could anyone please explain this honor code?  I've heard about it, and stayed away from Conclave 1.0 because I didn't know what it was...and it seemed kinda weird to me to keep yourself from using equipment and mods that were deemed "dishonorable" or something.

[elfkinn]

Maybe they could rerelease it and call it hardcore, since it was faster and had restriction on powers of people abbided by the honor code.

[vaugahn]

Could anyone please explain this honor code?  I've heard about it, and stayed away from Conclave 1.0 because I didn't know what it was...and it seemed kinda weird to me to keep yourself from using equipment and mods that were deemed "dishonorable" or something.

 

In Conclave 1.0, there were certain things that were so utterly broken no amount of skillful play could overcome them. Groups of conclavers would agree to not use these things, but if you joined a random game you'd often find people abusing the hell out of them.

 

Conclave 2.0 has (for the most part) gotten rid of that stuff, which has made matchmaking with randoms a much better option.

[Thalahssalyst]

Could anyone please explain this honor code?  I've heard about it, and stayed away from Conclave 1.0 because I didn't know what it was...and it seemed kinda weird to me to keep yourself from using equipment and mods that were deemed "dishonorable" or something.

You have to play with X loadout and not use energy. Dont use melee to kill, just for move.

Respect.

[Nighttide77]

In Conclave 1.0, there were certain things that were so utterly broken no amount of skillful play could overcome them. Groups of conclavers would agree to not use these things, but if you joined a random game you'd often find people abusing the hell out of them.

 

Conclave 2.0 has (for the most part) gotten rid of that stuff, which has made matchmaking with randoms a much better option.

 

You have to play with X loadout and not use energy. Dont use melee to kill, just for move.

Respect.

 

Was there a portion of the WF wiki or another website where players agreed on certain weapons and stuff?

[vaugahn]

Was there a portion of the WF wiki or another website where players agreed on certain weapons and stuff?

 

Nope. It was mostly unspoken, and if you were using something that was making the game hard people would usually tell you. 

 

This is one of the reasons Dark Sectors were so widely hated, people there played for keeps so all those tactics got used to their maximum potential. I remember a short period where Ash was the frame to use in DS conflicts, with insta-bleed shurikens following you across the map and bladestorm killing you endlessly with no way to dodge or fight back.

Edited June 3, 2015 by vaugahn

[Aciaj613]

Conclave 1.0 Had it's fair share of issues. Like the power-gap between a new person joining and a veteran, some things were literally unstoppable (rarely happens though), The honor code.

 

Conclave 2.0 Has similar problems, Modding is mostly restricted to clip-size/reload speed, hardly any customization in playstyle, Status effects currently missing, Critical strikes currently missing, headshots don't feel TOO reliable, tank frames are dominate without a weapon that instantly shreds them, the only notable difference you need to worry about in the weapons is Damage.

 

 

I feel like so far that the balancing concept seems to just removing core elements of warframe and restricting it down to everyone being almost the same. I have troubles telling the difference between play-styles in the new one because of these changes.

 

I'm hopeful that they will bring back some fighting customization in this mode later as it develops but as it stands the changes right now are not exactly going in the right direction.

 

One thing I appreciated about the Conclaves is the fact that the community understood each other in that mode. We would know who would be breaking an ultimate rule, we would know who was infamous or famous inside the conclaves, we also for the most part had a good time.

 

The community in the new one is just a bunch of unrecognizable people that won't exactly remember each other and see one another on the battle-field again. This new one so far feels just empty and soulless for me.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Aciaj613

[-Vane-]

Could anyone please explain this honor code? I've heard about it, and stayed away from Conclave 1.0 because I didn't know what it was...and it seemed kinda weird to me to keep yourself from using equipment and mods that were deemed "dishonorable" or something.

You could ask Lord_Noctus for these. I remember quite a few tho.

No Reflex Guard.

No Quick Thinking/Rage (tht was nerfed tho)

No Undying Will.

No explosive weapons.

No power spam.

No invisibility.

Explosives were easy to handle.We all at one point fought vs them and had better score, because only trolls and newcomers used it.

Oooh yea No Opticor.

[elele]

Old: ... You can build a weapon to take out tanks, have a high crit chance, rely on status effects, be well-balanced, and just plain pressure people with a constant barrage of bullets. 

 

"a weapon to take out tanks"  One shot kill Marelok. 

 

"have a high crit chance" RNG-dependent crit. 

 

"rely on status effects" Acrid and Glaxion. 

 

"just plain pressure people with a constant barrage of bullets" Supra Mirage.

 

All of these are either OP, or random, or just annoying to other players. Oh and don't forget Ogris and Penta. 

[-InV-igo95862]

Your code of honor only held because so few people played Conclave 1.0

If you had played Dark Sector conflicts when you would have encountered following:

Acrid 30 seconds DoT

Mesa Peacemaker

One shot Marelock, Vectis, Synoid...

It was completely anti-fun

[Buzkyl]

You could ask Lord_Noctus for these. I remember quite a few tho.

No Reflex Guard.

No Quick Thinking/Rage (tht was nerfed tho)

No Undying Will.

No explosive weapons.

No power spam.

No invisibility.

Explosives were easy to handle.We all at one point fought vs them and had better score, because only trolls and newcomers used it.

Oooh yea No Opticor.

 

 

You have to play with X loadout and not use energy. Dont use melee to kill, just for move.

Respect.

 

 

Now i must ask this:

 

 

If it takes that many arbitrary rules to create a seemingly balance conclave, how can you say it was "more balanced" compared to the current conclave?

 

Ignoring the myriad exploits (such as OHKO hitscan weapons, punchthrough weapons, toxin damage abuse, general status abuse and the many many broken and OP warframes) can and likely did produce a relatively balance and fair playing environment. I can understand  why people enjoyed Conclave 1.0.

 

 

However ignoring all of those unbalanced, does not make it go away. The honorcode was able to last because of the very small pvp community (compared to now) was all able to agree on it. That would not be able to hold now. There would be far too many players for an "imaginary rule" system to be what keeps the mode balanced.  This took full effect as we saw how broken the pvp system was in dark sectors.

 

 

Which then brings up another question:

 

Isn't it an unfair comparison to compare conclave 1.0 to Conclave 2.0 where the majority of the conclave 1.0 comparison is with the honorcode vs the conclave without one.

 

If we could hold private matches what would stop a group of pvpers to play the current conclave their own way, just like the old conclave?

 

 

If you're going to say conclave 1.0 was more fun for you, there's nothing wrong in that, it's your opinion mate. But to say old conclave had more balance is questionable after just look at some of the OP stuff others posted. Now that's not to sy current conclave is flawless, it has it's own fair share of problems (Issues like power spam and the use of  *insert current OP weapon* ) but what i can say is that it took a majority of what was wrong in the old PvP system and removed it.

[Phasedragon]

-snip-

it wasnt that conclave 1.0 was more balanced, it was that it was fun. Even the slightest mistake and you were dead. on the other hand, if you could exploit those mistakes, you win. that's why it was so incredible going against someone of equal skill, because you were looking for an opening. conclave 2.0 is far more forgiving. if you get hit by a daikyu, you can just run away and heal. if you're in a match with a player who is better than you,

there are just so many other players that you can completely ignore him and farm kills, even though they might completely slaughter you 1v1.

as for the honor code, it was only really noobs who broke it. either they didn't know better or they werent good enough(and god knows, thats how you learn.) because of this, it gave them a chance long enough to get better. unless it was something completely ridiculous like peacemaker mesa, they generally werent too hard to beat. there were of course exceptions, such as good plqyers who used cheap stuff, but you always knew they were just messing around.

Edited June 3, 2015 by PhaseShifted

[Thalahssalyst]

No noobs, just people who choose a different way to play and a different way to have fun.

The honor code "worked well" because a small community was playing that mode.

I think most of the "veterans" dont like this new pvp, because they are not "special" anymore, where everyone can kill, and get health.

There are few points that people cant remember, all the people with the same warframe, was not balance, all the people with the same weapons, was not balance, all the people flying around like superman was not fun, because not everyone liks valkyr or zephyr, not everyone wanted to play with mareloks or snipers, or another weapons that was not adjusted to "honor code", not everyone wanted to do coptering, there was people who loved the melee alone, and they cant, just a few, and that was not in the "honor code"...

I dont know, just saying.

If we compare the meta on "have fun", here we have fun, more people, more variation, not a simple ghost town. People who come from 1.0 was who come here asking for reward in pvp, there is no problem if people enter in this new pvp just for the mods, it dont make you worse playing.

About "noobs" no, there was not noobs, there was lack of balance, where just 1 ogris, or penta/Acrid, can ruin the complete match.

I remember enter in matchs, and all the people with the same warframe and weapons ever and ever and ever, it was like the only warframe and weapons available was snipers and mareloks/typedo/zephyr, valkyr.

I dont know, here we have more variation, people playing with melee and not only for mobility, people who choose differents warframe because different ways to play etc etc...

 

[Buzkyl]

it wasnt that conclave 1.0 was more balanced, it was that it was fun. Even the slightest mistake and you were dead. on the other hand, if you could exploit those mistakes, you win. that's why it was so incredible going against someone of equal skill, because you were looking for an opening. conclave 2.0 is far more forgiving. if you get hit by a daikyu, you can just run away and heal. if you're in a match with a player who is better than you,

there are just so many other players that you can completely ignore him and farm kills, even though they might completely slaughter you 1v1.

 

 

 

You see, that's where our definition of fun differs.

 

You get hit by a daikyu and run away to hit. What is stopping the other person from picking you off with their secondary? Or just chasing you down?

 

If you're fighting a player you're obviously outclassed by, what is wrong with running away and fighting him when he's occupied with a teammate or fighting him with the assistance of another teammate? Isn't that strategy? We have a team for a reason. Because your tone appears to be "If i'm better than you, i should be able to kill you every time and you learn from dying to me" from this perspective. Perhaps it's too much TeamFortress 2, but if you're fighting a player much better than you head on, you're dumb and likely to be killed. But if such player ambushes you if you're able to get away without dying, you outplayed them and lived to see another day.

 

You might be able to easily kill me 1v1, so i will do my best to ensure that i'm not alone. If you continually lose to a 2v1 scenario you need to change up your approach.

 

I do not find removing space for error fun, because that removes alot enjoyability from a game. Which was one of the biggest issues about old conclave, there were faar too many things that oneshot you unless you "git gud m8".

 

 

 

as for the honor code, it was only really noobs who broke it. either they didn't know better or they werent good enough

 

 

If find this statement extremely arrogant. "You don't play the way i do, therefore you're bad". There is ENOUGH elitism in PvE already.

 

And like i said, they were arbitrary rules, following them was a choice, not game design. If you want people to play the way you do, play with likeminded people, but don't expect people to cave into your preferences (whether it be good, or bad).

 

They were abusing the system you  chose not to. While your choice was noble, it was choice. When there's no balance you expect these to happen.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

You might be able to easily kill me 1v1, so i will do my best to ensure that i'm not alone. If you continually lose to a 2v1 scenario you need to change up your approach.

 

I do not find removing space for error fun, because that removes alot enjoyability from a game. Which was one of the biggest issues about old conclave, there were faar too many things that oneshot you unless you "git gud m8".

 

 

 

here is ENOUGH elitism in PvE already.

 

PvP is an environment where players are better than others. Thus there will always be elitism. 

[Feyangol]

The biggest reason why old conclave had such a bad reputation is the ttk.

It is incredible low (oneshots ... ), but it needed to be low. Our shields are often as strong as our health, what means that 50% of the dmg, we do, is/was meaningless. This is a huge amount of renewable effective health, we had the problem to face that a lot weapons weren't able to do enough dmg to let a fight be "worth" - you need to consider that you are able to escape every engage in this game, even if your shields are gone.

 

Even now we have this problem. I feel like the ttk now is good (if you choose to stay in an engage without to make a "tactical retreat"), but still ... I think everyone of you made the experience, that certain players are able to escape every of your engages over and over again. And than they come back to you, fully recovered, because the most part of the dmg you did was meaningless, thanks to the shields. Hell, I don't care if I run into 4 people, because I don't need to consider the consequences - the current ttk is not able to punish me constantly for this actions! I run into them, maybe I kill someone, but I don't take serious dmg. The old conclave had the same problem, but worse because of the higher speed.

 

Every longer trade needs to be worth it, that's why I say that they shouldn't change the current ttk, but decrease the shield ttk and increase the health ttk. Something like +50% health for all frames and +25% dmg for all weapons. DE reduced the fun factor of Warframe pvp (the speed) instead of dealing with the real problem (the shields), when it came to conclave 2.0.

Yes, the old conclave felt more like Warframe in my opinion, but that means that we should try to improve the current conclave to make it more like it. The pvp team made a lot good improvements (nearly every frame is viable, 80% of the Warframe abilities are balanced, well balanced high tier weapons), but this is, besides the monotony of weapons and missing matchmaking, one of my major criticism points.

[Thalahssalyst]

Every longer trade needs to be worth it, that's why I say that they shouldn't change the current ttk, but decrease the shield ttk and increase the health ttk. Something like +50% health for all frames and +25% dmg for all weapons. DE reduced the fun factor of Warframe pvp (the speed) instead of dealing with the real problem (the shields), when it came to conclave 2.0.

Yes, the old conclave felt more like Warframe in my opinion, but that means that we should try to improve the current conclave to make it more like it. The pvp team made a lot good improvements (nearly every frame is viable, 80% of the Warframe abilities are balanced, well balanced high tier weapons), but this is, besides the monotony of weapons and missing matchmaking, one of my major criticism points.

If you let me, im going to make some points of view on this with old and new, in my own experience.

You say the real problem its the Shields, hm maybe i dont know.

Fun factor speed... Uhm nope, as you can see now, that fun you say, is not working, if they make more speed on melee weapons, this feedback section its going to start in rage about people with melee weapons, that "fun factor about speed" its bad, and you have see that, it make a lot of people rage because E=easy win (...???).

That fun factor , is not fun for everyone, and DE is not making a Focus on what few people want, or think on "what is fun", when 2.0 comes, we have see, that fun factor, is not fun, it takes away the "skill" in mobility, and takes away the usage on most of melee weapons.

About old conclave "felt more warframe",  why you say that? Because speed on melee weapons doing ping pong everywhere? Or maybe because all the players choose Zephyr/Valkyr/Ash maybe loki with the same weapons over and over and over...

Or the point on old conclave ever was just shoot and fly? If we are going to talk about "fun", chisus, we are having more fun here than before, big variation on players choice, less focus on the same weapons and warframes/builds, different modes to play with warframes players with melee weapons killing and not only flying (for me, i ever loved the sword alone, and with coptering ever was hard try to catch a dude with typedo)

I dont think the ttk in warframe need to be more low in shields, squisky warframes are going to be more squishy including damage hp (if they increase the ttk how u say).

 

[Educated_Beast]

I tried 1.0 when first started playing Warframe. I could not get a break, turned me off completely. I thought to myself, I'm going to have get all high end gear to be competative.

I played dark sectors and never really felt like pvp. Either we were fighting Specters or 1 guy would join and get dominated. The winning team was almost always the highest paid team. Never considered this even pvp.

For me, the new system is the only true pvp available in warframe. The rest was garbage and exploitable.

Now that's my opinion. I still believe we should get a dueling ring in relay that is identical (except larger) to dueling ring in dojo. All weapons can be used, all cheesy tactics, etc. Use honor system, whatever. I'd never play it because I'm a magnet to jerks and prefer to just not put myself in those scenarios where I'm mad because of "cheating".

I prefer DE to continue to balance and provide an entertaining pvp system. What we have now, while far from perfect, is orders of magnitude better than before.

But I respect your opinion to be incorrect. :)

Edited June 4, 2015 by Educated_Beast

[(PSN)Quintanilla_C]

They should just stick it in the star chart, it has no downsides anyways.

Conclave 1.0 has no Creativity involved whatsoever, it strips players of the feeling of originality...

I miss stealing players ammo with my Halikar. *tear

Edited June 7, 2015 by (PS4)Quintanilla_C

[-NyriX-]

Could anyone please explain this honor code?  I've heard about it, and stayed away from Conclave 1.0 because I didn't know what it was...and it seemed kinda weird to me to keep yourself from using equipment and mods that were deemed "dishonorable" or something.

 

As a 1.0 vet, it was a rule of honor that we all followed. It was nothing written down or anything, it was simply a rule that out of respect and dignity followed.

 

-no damage abilities

-mostly no explosives

-no cheap mods such as QTR and AP 

-no staggering

-no knockdown

-no flaming

-mostly no 100% blocking or 100% meleeing

-and the most difficult to enforce: no revives or downkills

 

This was the 1.0 code of honor that we players had and most of us followed. We had a stable, non-toxic community going at full blossom. Now in 2.0? well now in 2.0 thats all broken because of the way DE put it. And I truly say broken because it's broken.