May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[Mak_Gohae]

You really think this is an answer??

 

Edit:  Oops.  Didn't realize it was the troll.  Of course....

 

Yes, thats the answer which directly deals with the question of why this was done.

If you dont believe their words.... that's another matter entirely but this is what we have from them so far.

[K1LLZ0NE]

Yes, thats the answer which directly deals with the question of why this was done.

If you dont believe their words.... that's another matter entirely but this is what we have from them so far.

 

You do realize that that "quote" didn't actually come from Scott, right?  It was just something Rebecca said while being sarcastic.  Last thing I'm gonna say.  Trolls really just need to stfu and gtfo.

[ADirtyEwok]

Everything you've said here is excellent news. I'm glad you guys are willing to go back and look at the changes you've made after the fact and consider whether they were effective or not. It feels good to be a part of a community that developers are willing to listen to.

 

On a separate note, has there been any news on a patch or hotfix to address some of the unintended consequences of this last patch? It's a bit annoying that Vauban's ultimate doesn't work unless all of his abilities are equipped, and Iron Skin is not fun to use at all without stagger resistance.

[Mak_Gohae]

You do realize that that "quote" didn't actually come from Scott, right?  It was just something Rebecca said while being sarcastic.  Last thing I'm gonna say.  Trolls really just need to stfu and gtfo.

 

No, she wasnt being sarcastic she said she was daydreaming and we all know that Rebs has the power to make dreams come true so this must've actually happened.

 

Plus the statement actually makes sense since there was no challenge at all in playing Rhino.

The flip outs are all people complaining that they can no longer just stand there and take hits from anything that the game spawns no matter the level. Now *Gasp* they have to actually do some managing during battles. 15 seconds long of no damage that costs 50 energy and could be extended even further is too much. That was pretty easy to figure out. This was the same for Chaos, everyone knew that was going to get toned down at some point so i dont see why this is such big thing. Folks should have seen this coming and preparing for it.

[BloodEmperor]

No, she wasnt being sarcastic she said she was daydreaming and we all know that Rebs has the power to make dreams come true so this must've actually happened.

 

Plus the statement actually makes sense since there was no challenge at all in playing Rhino.

The flip outs are all people complaining that they can no longer just stand there and take hits from anything that the game spawns no matter the level. Now *Gasp* they have to actually do some managing during battles. 15 seconds long of no damage that costs 50 energy and could be extended even further is too much. That was pretty easy to figure out. This was the same for Chaos, everyone knew that was going to get toned down at some point so i dont see why this is such big thing. Folks should have seen this coming and preparing for it.

u cant place playstyles upon players they develope them while playing and if some players WANT 15 secs of glory so be it its a GAME AND PVE

this argumentation is over

[Naed]

You do realize that that "quote" didn't actually come from Scott, right?  It was just something Rebecca said while being sarcastic.  Last thing I'm gonna say.  Trolls really just need to stfu and gtfo.

 

You do know that any credibility that you might be trying to aim for with your posts go out the window (screaming bloody murder btw) when you start on the name calling.

 

Why not just stick to the facts and opinions.

 

You know, have a meaningfull exchange of opinions ...

 

 

No, she wasnt being sarcastic she said she was daydreaming and we all know that Rebs has the power to make dreams come true so this must've actually happened.

 

Plus the statement actually makes sense since there was no challenge at all in playing Rhino.

The flip outs are all people complaining that they can no longer just stand there and take hits from anything that the game spawns no matter the level. Now *Gasp* they have to actually do some managing during battles. 15 seconds long of no damage that costs 50 energy and could be extended even further is too much. That was pretty easy to figure out. This was the same for Chaos, everyone knew that was going to get toned down at some point so i dont see why this is such big thing. Folks should have seen this coming and preparing for it.

 

Because its a "shiny".

 

And boy oh boy do gamers (any kind really) loooooove their "shinies" (queue Gollum voiceover for that)

 

Logic goes out the window (crying this time thou) when you try and apply it to the rather fancifull flights of fancy that are a gamer "knowledge"

 

 

Topic: DE i personally hope you dont bend too much for the community on this one. You are the game designers, not the playerbase.

[Gungrave_8]

I'll remember your promise about Rhino.
Make him badass DE....

[Naed]

u cant place playstyles upon players they develope them while playing and if some players WANT 15 secs of glory so be it its a GAME AND PVE

this argumentation is over

 

Actually, that argument might be over, because it never started...

 

If its a debate on a topic you want, please do give a "reason" for keeping iron skin as it was.

 

saying "i want!" has never been a part of a debate.

[Valiant]

Great, glad to see nothing important was missed. Just gotta hope it's done correctly now! 

Edited May 19, 2013 by Naith

[BETAOPTICS]

Now let me tell you my RNG experience.

 

After 100+ hours of playing I still havn't got the mod Flow.

Vauban came out and I wanted to buy some plat so I bought a founder pack.

I was 100% sure that I'd get a Flow mod on the first try with a "dragon mod pack", and I did get it on my first try. (LEL)

Since this is RNG logic, and my luck, 90% of the times after getting a mod I needed for so long another one drops, and so it did. (DOUBLE LEL)

This always happens to me in any kind of game, this can't be RNG anymore LOL.

 

Who told you to steal exactly same color scheme as my Loki does? >:(

[Dasty]

Please fix or communicate about the range too, almost reduce do 1/3 of what it used to be :)

I agreed it was a little bit OP with maxout reach mod, but right now, it's lower than Saryn's Miasma, which is instant and hurts ancients !

I agree.  The range is the biggest drawback in my opinion.  I'm alright with it not damaging targets that have armor, but it's unfair it has such small reach.  Hope it gets back to its original range. 

[s3kShUn08]

@DERebecca
 

#1 The Vauban design seems to resemble more "tank" than trapper honestly. I never really liked the design aesthetically, but that's my own personnal opion and taste. I feel a more slim lined version at the least would fut a trapper.

#2 Rhino, So after doin a few runs with the "New" Rhino, I can honestly say that this has absolutely changed the entire balance andplaystyle. Iron Skins new stats can do 80% damage reduction at the highest  with no invulnerability and no other added effects. Now Embers Overheat does a 70% reduction while granting invulnerability and no diruptions with a Focus mod at max thats a 91% reduction effectively making the Ember more Tnak than the Rhino. I fail to see why rhino skins 15 seconds of invulnerability would need to be watered downed to an inferior form of Overheat. Wihle OH is effected by focus to increase duration IS is not. This also begs the questuion of what practical use is left when someone can add a max Stell Fiber for a 75.9% damage reduction  for 7 mod points if used on his polarity slot which is a mere 3 points extra and doesnt cost energy to reduce damage. Even with a a level 5 SF mod and IS activated the lwest damage calculation is still 1 damage per hit. When running into high level Grineer with grakatas ROF it is like death be a thousand paper cuts for anyone who, like myself, prefers mellee combat. With no invulnerabitlity to allow shields to regenerate as soon as IS wears off now you have lost a good portion of your shield and are in the middle of the action with no protection.

 

#3 Rhino Stomp versus Bastille whats the difference?
Seriously, <_<
This is a case of redundant powers. A good way to overcome this is simply change rhino stomp. Change it froma utility to a damage type ultimate, since Bastille clearly does a better job at levatating enemies and allowing partners to target them. O_O A thought just occured to me, why not have Rhino Stomp act a lager "Bounce" rather than merely levatating a few enemies in suspended time why not have it so when Rhino Stomps his enemies are lauched into the air in a similar fashion to bounce. OR vice versa, when when Rhino Stomps it crushes te enemies within its AOE. Take a moment to immagin either as a possibility as they made me laugh thinking about them.

 

Specifically concerning Iron Skin

This feels more like an attempt by the DEV to team to balance frames for Dojo sparring despite saying that they were adamantly against it. Let's consider the fact that it might have been an attempt to avoid a stagnant frame setup where everyon would use a rhino and a scindo to just lock an oponent. As we heard in the last livestream duing the sparring testing they felt that this could have been an issue, and with U8 right around the corner it makes more sense that a overhaul to Iron skin was more of an attepmt to balance classes not for PVE but for the PVP side. This is merely conjecture on my part simply because I have no idea when or even if the DEV team had been discussing Iron Skin and overhauling it at an earlier date. 

Edited May 19, 2013 by s3kShUn08

[Cpl_Facehugger]

If its a debate on a topic you want, please do give a "reason" for keeping iron skin as it was.

I'll bite. Iron Skin "as it was" was pretty much the only reason to actually run with Rhino for the majority of Rhino users. All his other skills or attributes are done better by another frame. IS, meanwhile, was pretty unique. Now it's an inferior version of Overheat.

Moreover, it makes it so that Rhino can't fulfill the main role people used him for - rushing head first into danger to revive teammates or occupy high damage enemies like ancients. Or, yes, soloing.

And then there's the matter of how Rhino players payed through the nose for their invulnerability with the slowest speed in the game, with the Rhino being the only rank-locked frame.

On that note, why change it? The only plausibly valid answer is "it was OP", but that invites the question of why it was OP. Can you explain why? I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

[SymphNo9]

Giving us a heads up for upcoming changes and listen to the feedback is always nice. However, you guys should still take it with a grain of salt and not getting dragged around by a few lobbyists. The forumers are after all only a minority of the playerbase. Stay true to your visions and what you believe in!

[Cleesus]

All frames are no longer invulnerable when using skills, except Link, after effects of Blessing, Slash Dash and Rhino Charge.

Saryns ult still makes you invulnerable

[Toko]

1) “How to better release big things”

 

Time passes and instead of Rhino being targeted, it’s the communication process in general.

I agree and think we should come up with something new! Just like we have “Community Hot Topics”, why not have “Development Hot Topics!” Thanks to the threads that nudged, poked, and screamed for more communication.

 

2) Balance and future plans?

 

This is derived from Item # 1 in that when we know we are going to change something (Like Rhino Skin), we should inform, rationalize, and gauge feedback before we implement. This will be an ongoing learning process for us to find the best way to succinctly communicate upcoming changes and goals.

 

Both of these points I have mentioned in the past. If more communication was done officially between the developers and the community, these problems wouldn't be as bad. However it's difficult as Master and Grand Masters get more say and access to special part of the forums. These may lead to problems in the future and split the community.

 

Like I said months ago do more pre Update notes and discussions for example in the forums and elsewhere. Livestreams alone aren't good and many other media outlets are completly ignored by Digital Extremes in relation to Warframe or not mentioned.

 

I dislike deeply that the only communication we get in matters such as these is when a small part of the community wants to create a lynch mob because of a change they disagree with.

 

More should be done before hand.

 

The rest of your points I am fine with at the moment.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Toko

[K1LLZ0NE]

You do know that any credibility that you might be trying to aim for with your posts go out the window (screaming bloody murder btw) when you start on the name calling.

 

Why not just stick to the facts and opinions.

 

You know, have a meaningfull exchange of opinions ...

 

Ummmm, do you mean calling the Troll a Troll?  Sorry if I offended you?  But he is obviously a Troll.  Any an all posts he has made prove this.  Sorry.

[GroxXx777]

I'll bite. Iron Skin "as it was" was pretty much the only reason to actually run with Rhino for the majority of Rhino users. All his other skills or attributes are done better by another frame. IS, meanwhile, was pretty unique. Now it's an inferior version of Overheat.

Moreover, it makes it so that Rhino can't fulfill the main role people used him for - rushing head first into danger to revive teammates or occupy high damage enemies like ancients. Or, yes, soloing.

And then there's the matter of how Rhino players payed through the nose for their invulnerability with the slowest speed in the game, with the Rhino being the only rank-locked frame.

On that note, why change it? The only plausibly valid answer is "it was OP", but that invites the question of why it was OP. Can you explain why? I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

This guy gets it.

Iron skin made Rhino the "tankiest" tank, invaluable for any team if played well, without the old Iron Skin is just a purposeless frame.

[K1LLZ0NE]

Actually, that argument might be over, because it never started...

 

If its a debate on a topic you want, please do give a "reason" for keeping iron skin as it was.

 

saying "i want!" has never been a part of a debate.

 

There have been many suggestions made.  Ranging from "Keep it the way it was or else!" to "I get that it was OP but you went a little to far.  Please do __________________ to fix it."  I have made many such posts and have tried to debate the credibility of my suggestions as well as others.  I hope you did not just go to the last page of this thread, read one or two comments, and then post your own.  I think we, those who are unhappy with this update, have done a fine job of expressing our  thoughts and opinions.

Edited May 19, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Naed]

I'll bite. Iron Skin "as it was" was pretty much the only reason to actually run with Rhino for the majority of Rhino users. All his other skills or attributes are done better by another frame. IS, meanwhile, was pretty unique. Now it's an inferior version of Overheat.

Moreover, it makes it so that Rhino can't fulfill the main role people used him for - rushing head first into danger to revive teammates or occupy high damage enemies like ancients. Or, yes, soloing.

And then there's the matter of how Rhino players payed through the nose for their invulnerability with the slowest speed in the game, with the Rhino being the only rank-locked frame.

On that note, why change it? The only plausibly valid answer is "it was OP", but that invites the question of why it was OP. Can you explain why? I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Thank you for a well formulated post on the subject, that is something that DE can actually "use".

 

Which is and has been my point from the start :)

 

As for answers:

 

RE: reason to run rhino:

 

Well, there is the "obvious" very cheesy answer of: Use the other skills he has.

 

The (maybe) less obvious answer (but still rather cheesy) is: DE has said quite a few times (and from my pov it seems rather obvious) that they prefer when skills are used in a "synergy" between frames.

 

Example of this: Rhino stomp + Ember fire blast + Loki invis/Ash invis.

Another: Mag's bullet attractor + Excaliburs radial javelin

 

It has also been hinted (last time was the last livestream iirc) that there are still "combos" like that, which havnt been found. (Granted i could easily have misunderstood that part of the stream)

 

RE: main role people used him for:

From my end that is covered with the answers above.

 

RE: Slow speed and rank lock:

I hadnt forgotten about the speed, but i will happily admit i had forgotten about the rank lock.

The speed is okay because he has the kind of crowd control that he has,

The rank lock, im very much against..

 

RE: Why change:

I obviously dont know "how" the people that "thought" up Rhino think. But i dont think its an unthinkable thought that they cringe just a bit when all they hear about is how iron skin is the only skill used.

 

All the frames have abilities that are situational, some are very, some are less. But i dont think its a "bad" idea that DE is trying to "educate/broaden" (for a lack of a better term/word for describing it) the players "way" of using/playing Rhino.

 

Yes, i can easily understand that its not "fun" when the "easy" solution gets taken away, but DE have shown on numerous occasions that they actually do "know" what they are doing.

 

And the "fun" fact is, the only way they can "know" how the playerbase reacts to something is to "test" it out on us in a live setting.

 

 

If there is something i havnt covered, please do point it out and ill happily try and answer it.

 

 

Ummmm, do you mean calling the Troll a Troll?  Sorry if I offended you?  But he is obviously a Troll.  Any an all posts he has made prove this.  Sorry.

If you dont agree with someone, or think they are a troll, either ignore or report that post/person to the moderators.

 

There is no "point" in namecalling and stuff like that. It just removes the focus from what (i hope) we are all here for, giving feedback to DE.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Naed

[K1LLZ0NE]

 

If you dont agree with someone, or think they are a troll, either ignore or report that post/person to the moderators.

 

There is no "point" in namecalling and stuff like that. It just removes the focus from what (i hope) we are all here for, giving feedback to DE.

 

I did this as soon as I realized he was trolling.  At first I stopped arguing with him.  Then he moved on to someone else.  Then I made a post explaining to others what he was doing.  Then the new thread started and I made the mistake of replying to another one of his posts.  He trolled some more, and I made my final post.

[GroxXx777]

Thank you for a well formulated post on the subject, that is something that DE can actually "use".

 

Which is and has been my point from the start :)

 

As for answers:

 

RE: reason to run rhino:

 

Well, there is the "obvious" very cheesy answer of: Use the other skills he has.

 

The (maybe) less obvious answer (but still rather cheesy) is: DE has said quite a few times (and from my pov it seems rather obvious) that they prefer when skills are used in a "synergy" between frames.

 

Example of this: Rhino stomp + Ember fire blast + Loki invis/Ash invis.

Another: Mag's bullet attractor + Excaliburs radial javelin

 

It has also been hinted (last time was the last livestream iirc) that there are still "combos" like that, which havnt been found. (Granted i could easily have misunderstood that part of the stream)

 

RE: main role people used him for:

From my end that is covered with the answers above.

 

RE: Slow speed and rank lock:

I hadnt forgotten about the speed, but i will happily admit i had forgotten about the rank lock.

The speed is okay because he has the kind of crowd control that he has,

The rank lock, im very much against..

 

RE: Why change:

I obviously dont know "how" the people that "thought" up Rhino think. But i dont think its an unthinkable thought that they cringe just a bit when all they hear about is how iron skin is the only skill used.

 

All the frames have abilities that are situational, some are very, some are less. But i dont think its a "bad" idea that DE is trying to "educate/broaden" (for a lack of a better term/word for describing it) the players "way" of using/playing Rhino.

 

Yes, i can easily understand that its not "fun" when the "easy" solution gets taken away, but DE have shown on numerous occasions that they actually do "know" what they are doing.

 

And the "fun" fact is, the only way they can "know" how the playerbase reacts to something is to "test" it out on us in a live setting.

 

 

If there is something i havnt covered, please do point it out and ill happily try and answer it.

 

I Think that if DE wanted us to use the other skills, they should have buffed them. Other than the eventual rhino charge for either moving or knocking enemies down on a line or stomp when there are too many enemies to control near the pod, there was not much reason to use them, that is not a reason for nerfing a good skill Rhino had, there is stil barely any reason to use the other skills. 

People like me who tried Rhino and loved him, it was for his playstyle, that was much based on Iron Skin; if DE wanted us to find other way to play Rhino forcing us to change our playstyle so drastically was obviously not the way. Buff or rework the other skills to make them more apealing, sure, but doesn't take what we grew so used to, it's crazy not to expect the playerbase to flip out for that.

[goozilla]

Thank you for a well formulated post on the subject, that is something that DE can actually "use".

 

Which is and has been my point from the start :)

 

As for answers:

 

RE: reason to run rhino:

 

Well, there is the "obvious" very cheesy answer of: Use the other skills he has.

 

The (maybe) less obvious answer (but still rather cheesy) is: DE has said quite a few times (and from my pov it seems rather obvious) that they prefer when skills are used in a "synergy" between frames.

 

Example of this: Rhino stomp + Ember fire blast + Loki invis/Ash invis.

Another: Mag's bullet attractor + Excaliburs radial javelin

 

It has also been hinted (last time was the last livestream iirc) that there are still "combos" like that, which havnt been found. (Granted i could easily have misunderstood that part of the stream)

 

RE: main role people used him for:

From my end that is covered with the answers above.

 

RE: Slow speed and rank lock:

I hadnt forgotten about the speed, but i will happily admit i had forgotten about the rank lock.

The speed is okay because he has the kind of crowd control that he has,

The rank lock, im very much against..

 

RE: Why change:

I obviously dont know "how" the people that "thought" up Rhino think. But i dont think its an unthinkable thought that they cringe just a bit when all they hear about is how iron skin is the only skill used.

 

All the frames have abilities that are situational, some are very, some are less. But i dont think its a "bad" idea that DE is trying to "educate/broaden" (for a lack of a better term/word for describing it) the players "way" of using/playing Rhino.

 

Yes, i can easily understand that its not "fun" when the "easy" solution gets taken away, but DE have shown on numerous occasions that they actually do "know" what they are doing.

 

And the "fun" fact is, the only way they can "know" how the playerbase reacts to something is to "test" it out on us in a live setting.

 

 

If there is something i havnt covered, please do point it out and ill happily try and answer it.

 

 

If you dont agree with someone, or think they are a troll, either ignore or report that post/person to the moderators.

 

There is no "point" in namecalling and stuff like that. It just removes the focus from what (i hope) we are all here for, giving feedback to DE.

 

Rhino stomp is a terrible waste of 100 energy just to float things 20m away, where Ember's fireblast can't reach.

Huehuehue.

[Naed]

I Think that if DE wanted us to use the other skills, they should have buffed them. Other than the eventual rhino charge for either moving or knocking enemies down on a line or stomp when there are too many enemies to control near the pod, there was not much reason to use them, that is not a reason for nerfing a good skill Rhino had, there is stil barely any reason to use the other skills. 

People like me who tried Rhino and loved him, it was for his playstyle, that was much based on Iron Skin; if DE wanted us to find other way to play Rhino forcing us to change our playstyle so drastically was obviously not the way. Buff or rework the other skills to make them more apealing, sure, but doesn't take what we grew so used to, it's crazy not to expect the playerbase to flip out for that.

 

I will happily agree that the change to the skill (without any comment/reason from DE about it) wasnt exactly a "lucky/smart" thing, especially not when there is that sneaky "bug" with the disrubters/toxics/etc when iron skin is used.

 

But the change to the skill (80%) was still needed from my pov.

 

Well, the "sad" reality of the forum playerbase is that it flips "out" the moment it logs in on the forum and someone else has posted something, no matter if its relevant to something they are even thinking about :/ (yes, very big exaggeration on my part, but i do believe in this case, it makes my point very clear)

 

Join me in a bit of wishfull thinking here: Imagine that all the players that complain with reasons like "fix!!!!" / "dont want!" / "doesnt work" / etc etc etc, actually wrote down what it was that needed fixing/they-didnt-want/what-didnt-work/etc etc..

 

In a reality where that happended, Imagine the "state" the game could be in now ?

[igorludak]

It`s not only banshee who take dmg after using sound quake, Excalibur slash dash and frost avalanche receive dmg too this is tested few times....