Do We Need All 4 Abilities?

[CrimsonNightSky]

I know this is probably gonna be blasphemy to a lot of people, but hear me out.

- Right now, the majority of players focus solely on one or two abilities.

 

- You can blame that on maximization, but maybe it's also due to redundancy.
How many frames use all four abilities? Or how many frames have four DISTINCT abilities?
     Examples: Embers 2 & 3 - could they be combined? 
Frost's 1 and 2. Could this have been an evolution/ability mod instead of two abilities?

How about Nova's Null Star? Valk's Rip Line?

 

- Recasting abilities that do nothing but add passives or stat buffs is tedious. People avoid recasting stuff like this by using sets of duration mods. In a game as dynamic as Warframe, is it good to have us repeatedly cast buffs? Why not fold these abilities into something like a passive?
      Examples: Mirage's 3 - Gives a Damage Boost in the light and Resistance in the dark. What if she gained a 15% damage boost with maxed lighting and 10% reduced enemy accuracy (vs her) in the dark?
Saryn - Melee Booster? How about get rid of that and make her take less damage from enemies tagged with melee and abilities? Scales with # of enemies affected. Still takes full damage from untagged enemies. (Plays to her tankiness and 'Contagion' personality)

Valkyr - Warcry (#2) Could be be a building passive much like berserker. Consecutive hits on enemies would give her more attack speed and armor. When she uses Paralysis or Hysteria (anything where she yells) she shares this buff with nearby teammates.
This also gives Frames more of a chance to have gameplay differences and playstyle preferences.

 

- With less abilities, people on console wouldn't have to scroll through abilities. Instead of having Next, Previous, and Use Ability. You could simply have the three abilities bound to something like the D Pad. Also, it's easier to scroll through three abilities. (two button solution - next ability / use ability)

- Having three useful and balanced abilities is easier than four. You see claims of "this ability is useless" or "that ability is mega OP." Among other things, maybe DE could get around to doing more meaningful work than trying to balance+juggle an extra ability. And imagine 1/4 less whining about abilities! (I'm just kidding about that one)


Also I'm not saying there are no frames who's 4 abilities I dont enjoy. Nothing like that. What I'm saying is that there are benefits to having the game based around 3 abilities



Thoughts and input? Any merit to this? Potential downsides?


Edit: I'm talking about having 3 abilities vs 4 abilities. Not smushing everything down into one or two abilities. This is partly based on console controllers having 3 buttons (and/or a power menu) to control 4 abilities.

Edited June 16, 2015 by CrimsonNightSky

[ApolloXIII]

The flaw would come to those who you briefly mentioned liking all 4 abilities of. Personally I use all abilities on almost all the frames i use actively, with the primary exception being mesa because 4togenocide.

 

I agree with Saryn's contagion, it seems horribly outdated, and needs a rework.

 

It's also that some frames have abilities that don't fit someone's playstyle, or are too heavily out classed.

-Frost's snowglobe being the primary function in when he's used.

-Ember's World on Fire nullifying the usefulness of the rest of her kit

etc.

 

You mention maximization, and that is focused on buffing anywhere from 1 to all 4 abilities, it really depends on how and what scales with what.

I hybrid maximize Duration/Power on Valkyr and Chroma, and with the exception of the range debuff, my abilities get almost no downside. Take that same mod set up and apply it to Loki and suddenly you're worthless, because you're hitting about 5 people with radial disarm, or give it to Vauban and watch as his traps hit like nukes, but require you to stub your toe on them.

 

 

Basically, it's all pros and cons, and with a little polish here and there the 4 ability system will be fine, it's the players that make some abilities seem worthless, when they just don't like how it fits their playstyle.

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

I am a banshee  main user all her 4 abilities have their uses I'm no PRESS 4 to win players banshee players that rely solely on one of her skills usually get killed at end game content that's because people rely TOO MUCH ON ONE SKILL, same with Loki, ash, oberon, ember, frost, mag, excal, mirage, nova rhino, chroma, hydroid, mesa, volt and probably the list goes on There might be some frames that have only 2-3 optimal skills but there sure as hell are more frames that have all abilities that are useful why limit the choices of people more and encourage people to lets say the word ABUSE ONE SKILL THAT WILL IRK SOME PLAYERS AND CALL THEM PRESS 4 TO WIN PLAYERS. People use the favored skills because its their playstyle if a player wants to use only 2-3 skill and not the whole kit then let them but for us players that utilize the whole skill set on certain frames because we know the true potential or usage of them then don't take away OUR CHOICE on how we want to play.

Edited June 16, 2015 by --.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-

[DiosGX]

I'd rather have more than 4 abilities. This argument is flawed on the grounds the solution is to rework individual frame abilities on a one-by-one basis.

 

Some frames require small tweaks, like Oberon.

 

Others require a bit more of an overhaul that take a long F*** time, until the next. Frost's switcheroo will likely take a small fraction of the time Excal has been stacked up back in the shop.

o3o

[Elfalpha]

I think one of the greatest things about Warframe is the fact that for most frames you can't optimise for everything. If you want the biggest range on Loki's radial disarm you have to sacrifice duration which hurts Invisibility. The more you simplify abilities the more you take options away from us. 3 abilities? Two? Just one action skill and some passives? That's certainly not what I want from warframe.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

I disagree with a lot of your post, because I do like to make different builds that emphasize different aspects of a Warframes powers. Having everything be kiddie proof and max out all powers would be a bad thing IMO.

 

However, I do agree with you that powers that are just buffs would have to go. But, since DE has been creating a new meta where every enemy is an aimbot, we really need those powers just to stay alive now. And it's sad, because now, we have Chroma whose almost purely stat stacking and how fun is that after you're done formaing it? But sadly, I don't think the defense meta will go away anytime soon, because DE has dug themselves a pretty deep hole with that already.

[Crewell]

I'd rather frames have four abilities you want to use instead of just one you want to spam.

[o_HiTMaN_o]

YES we NEED 4 abilities... I dont care about other people but i use every game my 4 abilities WITH ALL THE FRAMES I USE Rhino loki nekros nova nekros hydroid. .etc.etc more fun more versatile and YES we NEED them ALL.

Edited June 16, 2015 by o_HiTMaN_o

[(PSN)Cycl0ne200713]

Oberon is a good example of a frame where all four abilities are useful. Same can be said for Zephyr and Volt. It depends on the player and how they use the frame. Some just like to spam, others like to actually be tactical. I played a 20 wave t4 defense last night and only used effigy once. 

[ApolloXIII]

Oberon is a good example of a frame where all four abilities are useful. Same can be said for Zephyr and Volt. It depends on the player and how they use the frame. Some just like to spam, others like to actually be tactical. I played a 20 wave t4 defense last night and only used effigy once. 

I find Chroma's kit to allow for all abilities to be used, but I only use effigy for temporary point defense while I hack, or am away from defense objectives collecting extra ammo or mods. Every ability has situations where it is more useful or becomes useless/waste of energy. You need to learn when these are to truly master a frame. Radial blind feels like a waste when you blind 1 enemy, but blind a whole room and suddenly youre an MVP.

[Davoodoo]

Flaw of energy system, when you have huge aoe which does more dmg than concentrated single target ability then obviously ppl will use aoe.

 

This system never worked and never will.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Davoodoo

[StinkyPygmy]

Some warframes have luck luster abilities yes, but I and a lot of other players use most of them.

Maybe not the majority, but some powers that may or may not be in need of being updated is not a reason to cut the amount of powers in half.

I for one also don't mind recasting buffs etc, especially when they aid team mates and not just me.

 

The issue isn't the number of abilities, its the discrepancy between a lot of issues in WF like the energy system, scaling, grind and efficiency vs time etc.

The forum communities irrational fear of change, whether that be buffs, nerfs, or reworks doesn't help. Makes it really hard for DE to even attempt to pull certain things into line without over the top amounts of backlash.

IF WFs were to have some passives like you suggested some abilities could be converted into, I would much rather they were not too powerfull and didn't replace abilities. There are a lot of frames that this wouldn't work for as they would be losing out on an ability that is useful to may players.

 

I'd rather see the source of the problem addressed and not just a band aid fix, which is what this would seem like to me.

Besides, the vocal part of the communities idea of "useless" is anything that can't  nuke a room.

Personally, thats a load of bulltwang. SO I wouldn't be using that as a basis for such a drastic change.

If people wanna play like that fine, but most of what is considered useless if far from it.

Edited June 16, 2015 by StinkyPygmy

[Kaiservadin]

2 skills will make the game boring people would scream rollback.

[S7ORM]

Ash: Use Shuriken w/ augment, Smoke Screen + Teleport, Bladestorm to clear for a revive.
Banshee: Use all of the abilities. All are good.
Chroma: Use everything except Spectral Scream.
Ember: Don't use this frame.
Excalibur: Use everything except super jump, but he's getting a rework anyways.
Frost: Use everything except Ice Wave
Hydroid: Use everything except puddle (I don't slot the augment). Tidal Surge is mobility.
Limbo: Use all of his abilities.
Loki: Use all of his abilities. Switch Teleport is underrated.
Mag: Use all of her abilities, depending on what I'm doing. Bullet Attractor = OP vs bosses. SpeedfarmingOP
Mesa: Use all of her abilities. I try not to use the 4th so much because it's just boring.

Mirage: Use all of her abilities. The 2nd one turns laser doors into free energy regen
Nekros: Use all of his abilities (slot Brofist augment)
Nova: Don't use Null Star
Nyx: Use all abilities (slot rave party augment)
Oberon: Don't play this frame, but I figure I would only use 3 and 4
Rhino: Use all of these abilities. charge is mobility.

Saryn: Use Miasma and regenerative molt. No point using the others because this is OP combo for anything up to 30m T4.
Trinity: Use all of these abilities. Yes, even WoL. It's a single target CC and makes for excellent energy regen.

Valkyr: Use all of these abilities.
Vauban: Use everything except the lighting balls. Well, technically i only use bounce to play with teammates.
Volt: Use all of these abilties
Zephyr: Use all of these abilities except divebomb

 

 

So, OP, I say no. How about we just fix the few bad abilities?

[Racter]

Back in the day abilities took up mod slots and most people only ran 1-2 abilities as a result. I actually preferred that on some frames as it kept me from accidentally pressing a button I didn't want to use and we had an extra mod slot, which would be really nice for specialized builds, especially now that augment mods are a thing. However, on any frame I use more than 1-2 abilities on, it sucked because you literally could not fit abilities on your frame without ruining your build.

 

Also, definitely no to making those passives. Even if that wasn't an ENORMOUS nerf (you know Mirage caps out at 95% DR and 568% damage increase right? Even with no power mods at all, 200%), definitely no. Warcry can already be kept up easily with Eternal War, Eclipse lasts for 30+ seconds on any decent build and can be recast while active.

 

No to all of this.

[Blakrana]

- With less abilities, people on console wouldn't have to scroll through abilities. Instead of having Next, Previous, and Use Ability. You could simply have the three abilities bound to something like the D Pad. Also, it's easier to scroll through three abilities. (two button solution - next ability / use ability)

 

Sake of information, the way Controllers work, at least in Big Picture/Pure mode on PC, you have the 'Power Menu' function and then you press one of the X/B/Y/A buttons for your desired power. Tap the Power menu button to recast the previous power, hold+relevant button to use something else. Hardly particularly involved, so I fail to see how this 'helps' someone when the schema in place is pretty effective.

 

Over all, personally I make a point to use most of the powers of a frame, barring a few real bad cases, such as Contagion, Well of Life, Iron Skin (more because it makes things boring than is 'terrible' mind). Reducing the powers down to a smaller quantity will bring what, precisely, to the table? Easier micromanagement for min/max is all I can really see coming out of it at the cost of some tangible variety for a fair few frames.

[CrimsonNightSky]

Thanks for your feedback and opinions guys.

One thing that I'm concerned about is how often and qucikly the conversation pointed straight to maximization. There's already a million threads arguing about that. I'm more interested in 'What does an ability offer to Gameplay?' 

Examples: Mag's Pull VS Mag's Crush. Similar range (including both being a forward arc), difference in energy cost/damage, both create space or help lock down the area, length of cast time. Different expressions of a similar effect.
Banshee's Sonic Boom is a push and knockdown in a frontal arc. Sound quake is a radial channeled knockdown.

If you could, for example, Hit 1 to have an ability like Pull, or hold 1 to charge it up into an ability like Crush, then how much would you need that extra ability slot?

 

Loki's switch teleport - How much better is it than advanced movement - and is that difference worth the energy cost? How often does it get used? Is it easier/harder to use than advanced movement? I think that it fits who Loki is perfectly, but is it helpful and/or necessary?

Again what does having this ability offer that either other abilities or gameplay elements don't already do? 

    Quick note on variety in Frame design:

The more abilities each frame has, the more overlap you'll have in shared abilities or ability design.

Console Controllers:
    Being able to have each button bound makes gameplay more fluid for them. Here's an interesting thing to try. If you have a 360 controller on PC - try casting fireball while shooting a gun as Ember. The menu pops up and you briefly stop shooting. It's something that you might not notice doing a one hand cast on the keyboard, but it adds extra clunkiness to consoles.

     For things like buffs, generally you'll be 1) at a point where they're not needed or 2) you're just chain casting it every time it ends. It's useful when you're talking about raw numbers - but it adds little to gameplay interactions. It's either off, or you spend time turning it on over and over. This is a great mechanic in click based RPGs. But in an action game it slows things down - it adds clunk. If parts of this are moved into passives, frames start having more distinct gameplay from eachother outside of abilities. They get more personality that doesn't revolve around spam repeatedly casting abilities.

Ignoring maximization just for now. What do you guys think of these ideas?

Edited June 16, 2015 by CrimsonNightSky

[Blakrana]

Console Controllers:

    Being able to have each button bound makes gameplay more fluid for them. Here's an interesting thing to try. If you have a 360 controller on PC - try casting fireball while shooting a gun as Ember. The menu pops up and you briefly stop shooting. It's something that you might not notice doing a one hand cast on the keyboard, but it adds extra clunkiness to consoles.

 

Tried the 'each button bound to a power' and funnily enough, I had less things I could do with the controller than making use of the Power Menu system we have. But each their own: You can rebind things like that in the Menu for the game launched Pure, and maybe you can reorganise to your preferred system.

 

It works well for you like that, but that is a matter of subjective preferences; not something to make a generalisation from.

 

It is rather simple to cast Fireball, Smite, Ripline or whatever whilst you're shooting at stuff using a controller, I find. Even when I tried the 'three button' system, hardly difficult.

 

Loki's switch teleport - How much better is it than advanced movement - and is that difference worth the energy cost? How often does it get used? Is it easier/harder to use than advanced movement? I think that it fits who Loki is perfectly, but is it helpful and/or necessary?

Again what does having this ability offer that either other abilities or gameplay elements don't already do? 

 

It is significantly easier to set up a Decoy somewhere you need to get, and just swap with it. No flipping, sliding, running or jumping required. Sure, you could but this is an alternative and fits neatly with the whole 'Loki is fast'.

 

In the right hands, there is also the whole 'can get someone bleeding out into safety for reviving' things, or the Augment to buff your swapped target. You may not see much use for it but Switch Teleport is a very versatile tool if you think about it for a moment or two.

 

Thanks for your feedback and opinions guys.

One thing that I'm concerned about is how often and qucikly the conversation pointed straight to maximization. There's already a million threads arguing about that. I'm more interested in 'What does an ability offer to Gameplay?' 

 

Warframe runs off of the Min/Max approach for its Meta. Gameplay? Very minor matter compared to the raw numerical efficiency to be discussed by many.

 

Examples: Mag's Pull VS Mag's Crush. Similar range (including both being a forward arc), difference in energy cost/damage, both create space or help lock down the area, length of cast time. Different expressions of a similar effect.

Banshee's Sonic Boom is a push and knockdown in a frontal arc. Sound quake is a radial channeled knockdown.

If you could, for example, Hit 1 to have an ability like Pull, or hold 1 to charge it up into an ability like Crush, then how much would you need that extra ability slot?

 

Quick note on variety in Frame design:

The more abilities each frame has, the more overlap you'll have in shared abilities or ability design.

For things like buffs, generally you'll be 1) at a point where they're not needed or 2) you're just chain casting it every time it ends. It's useful when you're talking about raw numbers - but it adds little to gameplay interactions. It's either off, or you spend time turning it on over and over. This is a great mechanic in click based RPGs. But in an action game it slows things down - it adds clunk. If parts of this are moved into passives, frames start having more distinct gameplay from eachother outside of abilities. They get more personality that doesn't revolve around spam repeatedly casting abilities.

 

First, Abilities haven't taken up 'slots' for a long while, so you're not losing anything having them count any number greater than 1. Even button bindings it's perfectly possible to modify them at your leisure to your desired state. It is literally down to a mere Two buttons, in practice, for Controllers via the Power modifier. Pretty neat and tidy set up really.

 

The matter of 'Charging abilities to a better form' is interesting and has been raised before (albeit same ability + something rather than 'Pull becomes Crush), however most people probably wouldn't care to. Pull is possible to spam pressing a lot, (saying nothing of the Augment) whilst Crush? Very little use unless you want to use it. Cheap and effective is always just that.

 

Applying a Buff is a form of Gameplay. It might be more numerical, but it is nonetheless an action, that you can take, to affect your actions in a game in some manner relative to the situation. You ever used a Charge Blade/Long Sword/Insect Glaive/Hunting Horn in Monster Hunter? A lot of focus on buffing yourself to do more damage/help the team. 

 

Take your 'Make Warcry more of a passive', you've now literally made it so that Valkyr can only increase her armour by attacking in Melee. Great, in theory, but now you just cannot help your team with using Warcry/Eternal War alone like you can currently unless you force a use of Paralysis/Hysteria which aren't things you just 'throw out' unless they're actually necessary in their own cases, saying nothing of Range factors or increased cost of Paralysis to offset this new trait, a reasonable balance pass. You also don't have the option to augment your armour before things go horribly wrong; if you are in dire straights and need that Armour before you can properly deal with the enemy, well...have fun.

 

Sure, it gives 'personality', but it's the same one that she has now, with less flexibility and adaptability to the situations that can arise. 

 

You're still using a buff. You're still doing the same numerical thing. Just instead of being over in about a couple of seconds, your throwing yourself at it for however long it takes based on how quickly the Passive builds/declines. Funny thing about passives, is that they tend to have useful but relatively minor effects by comparison.

 

Frames will always have relatively distinct Gameplay by nature of their abilities. Sure, some overlap happens, but that's a mathematical inevitability when you look at the kind of things you have as a game mechanic to utilise.

 

However, as much as you want to campaign for 'More Gameplay', fact is, the gameplay is a strange blend of Collectible Card Game in the form of Modding that affects your performance in the Action portion of the game, which runs kind of like Phantasy Star in general execution crossed with Dynasty Warriors. It's kind of a given that unless something big changes, there's going to be a lot of RPG style traits in the game, especially when people dedicate so much time and effort to attaining the maximum possible DPS and Efficiency they can.

 

Admirable goal, but practically? Not in this form I'm afraid.

[Scytze]

I tend to use all four abilities on every frame i use but i cant deny that some of them feel useless because min max meta. IMO corrupted mods are worst thing in some degree, Spamming 4 is not fun, camping is not fun, but still we all do it because if we don't we are filthy casuals. 

Yes we need all 4 skills, but enemy stats or our mod slots must be redone in some degree.

Whiskey out.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

 

- With less abilities, people on console wouldn't have to scroll through abilities. Instead of having Next, Previous, and Use Ability. You could simply have the three abilities bound to something like the D Pad. Also, it's easier to scroll through three abilities. (two button solution - next ability / use ability)

 

I'm not sure about X1, but on PS4 we have abilities assigned to touch pad swipes, so it's pretty easy to turn them on whenever you want really fast.

 

I'm not sure I like this idea. I usually use all 4 powers on most frames (except some rare cases like Saryn) More options is always good, and even if some frames have very situational abilities they are still useful in some cases. There is a problem with ability balance, but I don't think reducing the number of abilities is the way to go.

[CrimsonNightSky]

@Blakrana
I appreciate the amount of thought you put into that

     Quick Counter-points:

Switch Teleport: Your use of Decoy/Switch was actually one of the original ideas I had for folding Switch Tele into another ability. For example - Casting Decoy and then recasting it when aimed at the decoy could switch teleport you to that position. Realistically there isn't a significant benefit behind moving an enemy to where you were. Switching with a living ally, even when communicated ahead of time, can be disorienting. It's made even worse if you dont warn them that you're going to do it. Realistically you wont be swapping with a downed ally except in very contrived situations. For one thing, you're dropping the squishiest frame on a spot where someone just got put down to the ground. If you stealth ahead of time then you could just as easily place a decoy and revive them on the spot.
    As a side benefit - Loki's wont have the option troll people with terrible (chain) Swaps.

Pull => Crush: This argument states that Crush is a redundant and less useful, which is a major point for moving to 3 abilities. I wanted to include it as a charge ability because 1) The range, effect, and arc area are very similar 2) Some people probably like the animation and/or want to use it as a more damaging version.

Casting Buffs: Does it affect gameplay? Yes and No. There isn't any change in how you interact with enemies. Generally all a buff does is scale things like TTK for enemies and yourself - I'll talk about that later. The most interesting IMO is Volt's Speed because it enhances your interaction with the environment instead of just enemies. There is also the issue of constant upkeep and if managing that slows down other gameplay elements.

     Points of some agreement:

I really like a lot of the abilities some frames have in their kit. I agree with the majority of you that most of the abilities can be used. The difference is that I'm wondering that each ability is important and brings something significant to the table.

I also agree that the layout with controllers is usable. But I'm wondering if there are ways to make it better.
Examples: For the menu that the Right Button brings up - If we free up the top slot then you have one space for a quick use item. Also it gives the option of scrolling through abilities with just one button ('next ability vs previous ability'). It's waaaaay easier to scroll through three abilities than four. Not everyone needs to use a system like that, but it does give more options for freeing up buttons.

PS4 vs XB1 - I'd love to get my hands on a PS4  and see what the touchpad can do in games. All I'm going off of is the 360 controller on a PC. I didn't even start using the 360 controller until it locked up my mouse's X axis in game (lol). I do use it, but it's not my main controller and some of what I say (for the controllers) may or may not be on point.

    I'm glad you brought up the references to CCGs, Dynasty Warriors, and RPGs. Asking people what games seem to inspire Warframe will get you a huuuuuge list of answers. Ninja Gaiden, Tenchu, Dynasty Warriors, Action-shooters, and MMORPGs. This is just a sample of what people see in Warframe. You see a lot of arguments (maybe more like e-peen duels) for and against elements of Action games VS MMORPGs. A lot of them argue about stuff like: Progression, Max-Min, and Power Aquisition. 

     I'd like to offer my observations on how these things interact:
TL;DR at the bottom, individual topics in spoilers

Game Type and Player Motivation:
    What is it that keeps people playing games? For action games, it is usually how good the gameplay is. There's a reason why people seem to keep playing the same action games and shooters and usually it boils down to how much people enjoy the gameplay. In MMORPGs, player motivation has a greater tendency to be tied to things like Character Progression, Power Aquisition (gearing + leveling), and overall goals.

How this Affects Warframe:
     Warframe seems to try and mesh a lot of the above ideas (and sources of inspiration). We have a game that offers unique Movement, Gunplay, Melee, some Stealth, and Abilities. When thrown together, these can create some very compelling action oriented gameplay. When the gameplay is good, the game is worth playing just because (a mentality you see more in action games).

    At the same time, we have more MMORPG style elements when it comes to stuff like Progression and Power Aquisition. One difference Vs the usual MMORPGs - the difficulty of the content (enemy level) is easy to match with Progression/Power (your level + gear). In Warframe our Power is a little less linear and a bit more vague in how it relates to enemy level. Each time you find or level a useful mod, your power SPIKES drastically. To put this in perspective, once you slot just one Rank 5 Elemental mod (90%) you almost DOUBLE your gun's damage.
 And this is why I don't care very much for buff abilities.

    Now getting more powerful isn't a bad thing by itself. Again, being able to build your character's effectiveness is one of those things that motivate RPG gamers - call it gaining Power or Character Progression if you'd like. The problem is that our power doesn't scale linearly, or even in a controlled way vs enemies. Mods work on multiplying damage mechanics - ie: Base Damage, Elemental Mods, Multishot, crit chance/damage, and even Fire Rate. (I'll talk about how this relates to abilities later)

     Scaling: Here's a Secondary with a few different setups

Just Hornet Strike and an Elemental Mod
     Gun 1:  Two unranked mods - a Lowbie without any cores
Hornet strike R0 -  +20%    /    Heated Chamber R0 - +15%     =      1.2 * 1.15 = 1.38
    Gun is 1.38 times better than one without mods. Gun does 38% more damage without mods.
     Gun 2: Two mods at rank 5
Hornet Strike R5 -   +120%     /   Elemental R5 - +90%     =    2.2 * 1.9 = 4.18 times stronger.
    Thats TIMES stronger, 418% better gun with two R5 mods. 

     Another comparison:
Well here's the same gun with a fairly typical 1 Hornet Strike 2 multishot 4 ele setup.
Hornet - +220% \\ 4 Elementals +360% // Lethal Torrent + Barrel Diffusion +180%

     Gun does 41.2 times more damage than an unranked gun. (3.2 * 4.6 * 2.8).
 

How do you balance something that is 41 times more powerful than it was to start?
    This is the difference between going 20 MPH in a school zone and a jet breaking the sound barrier. Even worse, people with these souped up guns are often grouped with people who's guns are many times less effective. Since we dont have an easy point of comparison for enemy lvl vs Weapon effectiveness, this happens all the time.

Scaling Comparison to MMOs:

   In MMO terms, our current scaling means we have people fighting lvl 5 Boars and suddenly a lvl 20 comes around and oneshots absolutely everything. Also, under the current rewards system, the Lvl 20 gets the full rewards, XP, Gold, and loot. Typically in MMOs there is no reason for the Lvl 20 to go back to the starting area. Gold drops are 1/10th less, they wont be gaining any XP (even if they did the XP gain there would be total crap for them), and the equipment/loot would be completely worthless to them. In Warframe, the "lvl 20 killing boars" is actually rewarded faster - you're rewarded faster for doing low level (trivial) content. It's also no fun for the lvl 5 who simply isn't able to do anything while that lvl 20 is there.

    No clear point of reference for how powerful you are:

The problem isn't simply that you can get more powerful. It's that there's no good point of reference for how powerful you are. I talked about guns which are 40 times more powerful, now lets talk about further scaling.
Headshots - you land a headshot and that 40x becomes 80x. (not counting headcrits)

Buffs - Lets add a buff to that headshot. I'll take Racter's example of 586% damage boost. Now we've scaled the damage 454 times. Again that's 45,400% and I didn't even need to use Primed Heated Chamber, an 8th mod, crits, or buffs from teammates. This is possible in a solo environment. If you want, you can add just one team member and have them use molecular prime. [For a sense of scale, 454 times is roughly the difference between going 20 MPH in a school zone and going Mach 12, or 12 times the speed of sound]. And this is why I don't care very much for buff abilities - especially considering that they just get recast over and over and over.

    The sense of scale between Gun Power, Frame Health, and Power Strength are huuugely different. Earlier I mentioned being able to scale a single bullet 450x base damage. How far can an ability scale in comparison? This is why 'damage' abilities like fireball stop being damage abilities and start only being CC. Same problem with our effective health vs Enemies who are balanced against our Guns' damage - but we're not balanced for theirs. You cant use these really cool gameplay elements like Movement and Melee if stepping out of cover (or more likely that frost bubble) will kill you.

 

     And this is why some say 'endgame' is stuck. Our progression system (modding) revolves around (what I'll call) needlessly large numbers and multipliers - as well as trying to create some form of balance inside of that system. Balancing large - multiplied numbers is practically impossible. Just remember that those people who are getting 454x damage buffed headshots are playing in the same system as people who's guns have scaled 20x or a 40x with a headshot for the same gun (typical for many 1-2 polarity'd guns w/ potato).

     Bosses and new content practically need to rely on on cheesy defenses, invulnerability periods, damage caps, and repetition. If Bosses dont rely on cheese, they'll die almost instantly -
And this will be what the late game community says:

Back to Player motivation: Gameplay vs Progression
     Once you progress to the end of the game - collected and leveled the mods you need. What will keep you playing? This is a question that people in late game ask themselves.

   -New Content: As talked about, many players blow through alerts and missions. Frames and weapons get leveled fast. DE usually needs to spend a lot of time developing content and yet players blow through it quickly.

    -New Mods: This just widens the gap between players, enemy level, etc... Makes the game that much harder to balance
    -New Goals: Right now I'm running a solo clan cause I want to build a Dojo as a pet project. It's also a good way to get creative and screw around with stuff. When they were introduced - Syndicates and Ducats were shiny new goals. Some people have compaints about stuff like that, but that's a whole nother issue.
    -Endless missions: When will my gun + abilities stop making a difference? Ties into imbalance between Weapons & enemies. This type of gameplay never changes and rarely requires you to do anything different. It's more a question of endurance and how much free time you can spend in one sitting. DE sometimes tries to introduce enemies/enemy mechanics to interrupt this, or make it more interesting, but usually nothing really helps.
    -Community: In MMOs a lot of people stick around because they like the social aspect. They like playing games and chit-chatting with other people. The social aspect is 'ok' in WF, but I'd love to see DE develop more ways of interacting with people - or making it easier to connect with people. Basically the difference between having an OK social/community scene and a great one. And I'd love to see more reasons for people to come out of playing solo. (I play 70% solo 30% with others).
    -Gameplay: "Even if I have everything, I'll continue playing the game because I enjoy the game." Some might argue that this is the easiest way for DE to keep people playing in the long term.

Unfortunately, when you reach 'endgame' a lot of the gameplay becomes incredibly easy or excessively cheesy.

 

     Again, this is because we're completely out of balance. We're out of balance with people we play with (people with guns that do 10x more damage at the same 'level') and we're not balanced with enemies we fight against (getting one shot vs mowing down trash mobs). We don't even know how we compare Vs enemy level until we find an enemy level that takes too long to kill (for both newbies moving from 1-3 to 3-5 zones, and for people doing endless runs)

 

     Why do you think so many people look for stuff like Draco? Why do you think the community looks ridiculously high level enemies/endless runs? Most of it relates to our Progression (Draco makes it happen way faster) and Comparing our Progress/Power (what is the highest level enemy I can actually kill?). 

   A few months I lost one of my good WF friends. Real social guy, fun to chat with, fun to play with. A month or two before quitting, he went and bought Mesa, he was pretty excited about it and wanted to run more defense missions than we used to (ironically I was leveling Frost Prime at that time). After a couple of weeks, he starts asking me the weird and slightly depressing questions like "What else is there to do?" and "What other guns are worth it?" I'm guessing that he 'spiked in power/progression' so hard that he just didn't find the game engaging anymore. Around the end of that month he just stopped logging in. I'm just sharing that so you guy know that 'endgame' isn't always this huge goal off in the distance. For some people it comes up real quick.

-=-=-=-=-             -=-=-=-=-             -=-=-=-=-             -=-=-=-=-             -=-=-=-=-        

 
               -=TL DR=-
      Once you've hit the end of PROGRESSION, the only real reason to stay is GAMEPLAY and how much you enjoy the game for what it is. It's probably a BIG PROBLEM that people who have hit that progression wall are stuck with gameplay that is almost impossible to balance. "Too easy or too cheesy"
 

     It's generally a question of how people want the game design to go. Do you want a game where gameplay systems are balanced to eachother? Or do you want a game that revolves around 'really big numbers' for enemies and guns? After looking at everything I'd argue that you can't have both.

 

     Different levels of scaling - [Guns, Melee, Abilities, Enemies, Frame Health, etc] - means that certain parts of gameplay become completely unviable after a certain point. A lot of the balance is between Gun Damage and Enemy Level (Or Effective Health) because those two things scale unbelievably high. When people say "this or that damage ability is worthless," it's not that the ability is total crap, it just doesn't transition well with increases in enemy health.

     When I write that we don't need 4 abilities half of me is considering the current system, and the other half is probably in dream land imagining a world with more engaging gameplay and balance. I consider abilities more valuable when they do something for Engaging Gameplay vs a buff that works in the background and simply lets you take on enemies with % higher fixed amount of Effective Health - or lets the team facetank bullets a little easier. Some of this might be way off the mark if you just consider the current system. I like trying to imagine systems that are more fun and engaging.

Thanks for your eyes, ears, and thoughts all.

[VoidWraith]

With the way enemy levels scale, you should really think about powers doing damage on a percentage (that can be increased or decreased with mods) instead of a flat number. The range can be set to a flat number that can be increased or decreased with mods.

 

As someone has also said, single target abilities usually should do more damage, since they are afterall, focused on one target. If when maxed it does a small splash damage one the single target, then I don't mind the damage being split, with the majority of the damage being sent to the selected target.

 

AOE or area of effect damage skills, should usually have equally split damage, OR damage is focused mainly at center of the AOE and damage decreasing as it moves further out of the radius of the AOE.

 

But in this game, that logic isn't there. This game is built on Frames having a set of 4 abilities, with each ability doing better than the previous one (usually). Some Frames fortunately, don't have that type of thing and is built on utility, like Loki and Vauban (yes, his skills do damage, but it's meant for tactical and utility use).

 

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, or one of the few in the community, or perhaps the majority of the community. But I find it weird that as someone has said, this game has become a "panic! press 4 to survive!". I know it's human nature to default to a fight or flight response (some cases freeze up) but the way the skills are set up for some Frames, this can't be avoided.

 

The other thing is now energy. Energy costs is kind of an issue here as well. Normally AOE skills cost a significant amount of energy to cast, since it isn't on a single target (ally or enemy or both). This same argument can be said about skills that target single enemies and should do more damage than AOE type damage skills. This is true. The mod Blind Rage begins to make more sense, as the more powerful the skill, the more you have to spend. Maybe add a charging (this might be preferable to most Frames, due to the Frames just shooting out a single blast) or toggle (like with Chroma, where his energy breath is a toggle skill, but depending on DE, they can turn other Frames into this similar thing where you hold out your palm and blast out in a cone or whatever) to the single target skills? Or essentially the first skills? The longer it is held the more damage it will do and/or more energy cost?

 

The AOE skills whether it is a buff/debuff (just throw healing/recovery under the buff category and CC, otherwise known as, crowd control, under debuff as well) or a damage, or both, should also have the similar effect. It should have a cost that is more than the single target or first abilities.

 

Some of these things can be put into the game as part of the Frames' mechanics but instead it is put into mods, which is a bit weird.

 

Stamina is an iffy issue, because the rate at which we drain stamina is pretty fast. You'd expect the naturally tankier frames to have more stamina and less of a stamina use rate, while the lighter frames would have less stamina than the tankier frames, but would be faster, hence the stamina usage should be just right.

This game is still "in beta" but some of the ideas are pretty nice on the forums. Especially from those that have played the game a while.

[(PSN)gino1313]

Abilities on console:

 

PS4:

You have 3 choices of how to cast:

    -Use touchpad to swipe up (1), left (2), down (3), or right (4).

    -Use quick casting by pressing one button to cast last used ability.

    -Hold down quick casting button and then select from x (3), o (4), Δ (1), and ◻ (2)

 

XBone:

    -Use d-pad to scroll left to right through powers, cast with A.

 

Hope this clears up the confusion.

Edited June 18, 2015 by (PS4)gino1313

[fatpig84]

My loki definitely uses all 4 abilities.

It works great in spy too.

 

My Booben uses all 4 abilities as well.

 

 

DE just need to make all abilities more attractive.

[CrimsonNightSky]

Void - Good take on (AoE/single) targeting, cost, and general thoughts on game design. Any conversation about the Energy system hurts my head and my soul, but I can relate to what you're writing here.

Gino - Thanks for that :) I'm still in envy of fancy track pad tech (I actually have a PS4 controller for my PS3, I'm just saving my nickels and dimes for the system itself)
 

My Booben uses all 4 abilities as well.

 

 

DE just need to make all abilities more attractive.

I'm assuming that booben is the notorious 'farts to clear a room' lady ;)
I actually run around low/mid level zones with her new Melee augment on every now and then. Her kit actually has a lot of flexibility (procs, decoys, etc)

And I really, really agree with needing to make all abilities more attractive. Another part my 3 ability thinking is that it's much easier for DE to design and balance three distinct and attractive abilities.

-=-
I'm also more considering - with how the four ability system is now - how the frame leveling system affects things. I know that there are abilities that I didn't use at lower levels because, either the duration was ungodly short, or because the effect (for things that use percents) wasn't as usable until higher levels.
That's kind of besides the point, but an interesting topic on it's own.

Edited June 18, 2015 by CrimsonNightSky