Gelkor Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 It would actually make the missions much more difficult. Cause now we can rush to the objective, globe, wait, then rush to exit. Without coptering, one mission would take FOREVER. Maybe thats what they are going for....Forcing us to deal with things we dont have to at the moment. I cant say its a totally bad thing....but its going to make things more tedious, in an already very tedium heavy game. No, they don't want us to be slow. They don't want us staying in the same spot. They want us leaping and charging everywhere. That's why they are removing stamina (unlimited sprint and maneuvers). They are making a momentum gaining wall leap/vault that works on any obstacle including enemies. They -want- us to be fast, they just don't want that speed to be tied to a bug that is only present on a select few weapons, they want Tenno to be fast no matter what melee weapons they choose to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)PillarOfWar Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 The only issue with it is that it prevents exploration and viewing of the beautiful environments for any substantial amount of time. In time the tilesets all blend together and people eventually fail to notice the beauty in them or even the differencesIt's the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) LMAO at "coptering is what sold me on the game" Edited June 19, 2015 by Hypernaut1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathemagics Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 im actually for losing coptering because i will be willing to bring more weapons i like but are bad copters like jat-kittag or dual cleavers. on the other hand weapons like daggers gona be completly useless after this and will need a second look at them. so it goes both ways But yea its probably better to get rid of it just baff daggers with some cool utility (fast strong finishers?increased move speed?)imo its boring if weapons only point is dmg there should be more utility type weapons like kogake and jat kittag... also is kinda logical u run faster with tiny knife than huge axe.... but yea coptering looks stupid i think maybe if weapons would affect sprint speed? idk balancing stuff is complicated :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aigloblam Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 im actually for losing coptering because i will be willing to bring more weapons i like but are bad copters like jat-kittag or dual cleavers. on the other hand weapons like daggers gona be completly useless after this and will need a second look at them. so it goes both ways But yea its probably better to get rid of it just baff daggers with some cool utility (fast strong finishers?increased move speed?)imo its boring if weapons only point is dmg there should be more utility type weapons like kogake and jat kittag... also is kinda logical u run faster with tiny knife than huge axe.... but yea coptering looks stupid i think maybe if weapons would affect sprint speed? idk balancing stuff is complicated :) I'm probably the biggest supporter of Coptering that you will ever see. But even with that said, I dont always copter...I certainly dont mind bringing a weapon that doesnt, if thats the kind of playstyle i feel like using. If you want it removed because it looks stupid, then there are a great many things that would need to go with it. No, they don't want us to be slow. They don't want us staying in the same spot. They want us leaping and charging everywhere. That's why they are removing stamina (unlimited sprint and maneuvers). They are making a momentum gaining wall leap/vault that works on any obstacle including enemies. They -want- us to be fast, they just don't want that speed to be tied to a bug that is only present on a select few weapons, they want Tenno to be fast no matter what melee weapons they choose to use. There is fast, Then there is coptering. There is a level of coptering that im not sure some of you quite understand. Parkour 2.0 is never going to allow me to take my Arcane Thrak Rhino with a Hobbled Key, and still do a void capture in less than a minute and a half. This is the kind of speed we're talking about here. No of course you don't have to use it every mission, but its an option that we should always have. Over and above any strategic advantage or whatever, Its simply FUN. Its one of the most enjoyable things to do in Warframe, to take a party of 4 people who know very well how to copter, and just see us zoom across the map, Racing eachother and loving every second of it. You guys keep claiming its not needed....Well neither is Parkour 2.0, but everyone seems really happy for that to be coming soon. Tell me, Whats the difference? They are both Movement enhancing playstyles. The big differences im already seeing is that coptering will of course be several times faster, but its also limited to certain weapons, and usually the lighter ones, so you can choose between Medium Damage and Coptering, or High Damage and being slow. I think thats a fair tradeoff. Last but certainly not least. Im starting to get really sick of seeing over and over "its just a bug". It started that way, Yes. But if it were simply a bug it would have been removed. Not only have they not removed it (til now, when they are trying to replace it) they have tweaked it quite a bit, even made weapons that were better at it than the ones we had before. Its no longer a bug, pure and simple. That excuse is wearing very thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gelkor Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'm probably the biggest supporter of Coptering that you will ever see. But even with that said, I dont always copter...I certainly dont mind bringing a weapon that doesnt, if thats the kind of playstyle i feel like using. If you want it removed because it looks stupid, then there are a great many things that would need to go with it. There is fast, Then there is coptering. There is a level of coptering that im not sure some of you quite understand. Parkour 2.0 is never going to allow me to take my Arcane Thrak Rhino with a Hobbled Key, and still do a void capture in less than a minute and a half. This is the kind of speed we're talking about here. Part of the change is needed to make parkour 2.0 work however. Currently the bug that causes coptering is the same bug that causes high momentum states (like those gained from coptering or wall vaulting) to lock you into a high momentum state if you get stuck on a corner or obstacle, ie: when you wall vault or copter and catch an obstacle, and get stuck on that obstacle for 4-6 seconds. They are changing it so that you can automaticaly translate your momentum in one direction into movement in another direction, the side effect of this change is that coptering won't momentum lock you anymore, for good or bad. I'm just getting tired of hearing people say that DE is removing coptering to intentionally make the game less fun, that's simply not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)lupowolfen Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't believe I've been playing all this time (Since 4-2014) and I've never coptered. Except by accident of course. I'd be jumping and doing some melee moves and would suddenly fly a huge distance. This was usually just an annoyance to me because I would have to run back to where I was before. Every now and then I would get into a team capture game and wonder "how did that guy get to the capture target so fast?" But I never really put two and two together. Doh! But now, it looks like its too late for me to learn how to copter. Anyway I just run through everything, all the time, even with Frost. Yeah, sometimes it takes a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aigloblam Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Part of the change is needed to make parkour 2.0 work however. Currently the bug that causes coptering is the same bug that causes high momentum states (like those gained from coptering or wall vaulting) to lock you into a high momentum state if you get stuck on a corner or obstacle, ie: when you wall vault or copter and catch an obstacle, and get stuck on that obstacle for 4-6 seconds. They are changing it so that you can automaticaly translate your momentum in one direction into movement in another direction, the side effect of this change is that coptering won't momentum lock you anymore, for good or bad. I'm just getting tired of hearing people say that DE is removing coptering to intentionally make the game less fun, that's simply not true. They aren't removing to to make it less fun. That is certainly not their intent. But for a great many of us, Thats exactly what is going to happen. Im going to lose my freaking mind with world shattering rage if i can no longer Copter....but im MR19, ive spent thousands of hours on this game, Im not giving up on it because one thing i like (no matter how integral) is removed. Im still going to play it, and im still going to enjoy it...but i'll miss Coptering even more than i miss Old Ember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gelkor Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 They aren't removing to to make it less fun. That is certainly not their intent. But for a great many of us, Thats exactly what is going to happen. Im going to lose my freaking mind with world shattering rage if i can no longer Copter....but im MR19, ive spent thousands of hours on this game, Im not giving up on it because one thing i like (no matter how integral) is removed. Im still going to play it, and im still going to enjoy it...but i'll miss Coptering even more than i miss Old Ember. All I can say is that if you've been around that long, you'll know that they try to keep the game fun and interesting even when they take things away they replace it with something better. They took away super jump and replaced it with something arguably way more enjoyable. They took away Conclave 1.0 and replaced it with something far more balanced, engaging, and with a lot more developer love, care, and attention. Based on their words, actions, and the videos they've shown and tweeted, I'm fairly certain people who were skillful at coptering are going to be able to be skillful at this new system, while it may not have quite the single direction speed of some copter weapons (IE covering a 2 miles in one Amphis/Tipedo-Copter) I am almost certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that we will be making up that time in our new ability to corner much faster. Keep in mind the idea proposed and shown in the videos is a progressive increase in momentum as you wall leap to wall leap, each additional leap increases your momentum, and if Steve's to be believed, that momentum increases ad infinitum. Coptering may not be a thing in the new system, but that's because we won't need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judgebanks Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Or at least what the actual issue is with it. amirite? I'm gonna assume that I invented coptering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Ehrgeiz X Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Our best interest at heart? That's a good joke. Say hello to my friend formabp-every-rotation-c-ever. Even better, orokin cell! See also, infested-instantly-cc-you-forever. Not be confused with Void Bombard that never reloads or runs out of ammo, dog trainer that takes your equipment away, or with Nullfier that instantly got you killed because you happened to be coming into a doorway the same time he was.Hey, believe me. I've been royally screwed by RNG just as much as the next guy. 7 void interceptions trying to get a soma receiver only to get forma BPs and a plethora of Bronco and Akbronco BPs. Needless to say, I wasn't please. But for me, it's not about the grind itself. It's the fun I'm having. I wholeheartedly enjoy this game for what it is, so I doesn't bother me when 12 Bombard's and 6 nullifiers come rolling out of the spawn rooms at wave 39 on a T4 defense. That's added challenge to me. I want that Loki systems print, and this game is gonna make me work for it. I overcome that challenge but didn't get Loki systems? Yeah, I'm mad, but at least I know I can do it again. Believe me, I haven't been getting S#&$ for C rotation drops lately either. But, it's ok. At the end of the day, there's always going to be something new, something fresh for us to do as long as DE keeps cranking out new content, which is a lot more than I can say about other games (COUGHCOUGHDESTINYCOUGH), and for free, no less. I guess I'm just so used to get financially screwed by other games that I'm not even in the least bit bothered by a little RNGesus bullS#&$ on this one. But for what it's worth, fawk those nullifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract7777 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 To anyone who will actually stop playing because of the removal of coptering, I don't think you'll be missed... Coptering is an exploit, it's been there a long time because the game is beta and they haven't gotten around to removing/fixing/replacing it but it's ALWAYS been an exploit. Deny it all you want but you are wrong. And an exploit was always going to be removed. They are just throwing it out, they are replacing it with a new, better movement system. And it just sounds really childish to see people whining about how not being able to use an exploit will ruin the game for them, and they might pack up their toys, take their ball and go home. We don't know what the new system will be, but from what they have shown and told us already, it's going to be a way more consistent system than coptering, with the removal of stamina. Coptering isn't being "nuked" it's being replaced with a better system. If the new parkour system has problems we can complain about what is wrong and ask for fixes then, but whining about it now is just ridiculous. The exploit was always going to go and we have to accept that. Hell, people shouldn't have gotten so attached. Again, the reason it was in the game so long is because the game is beta, you all knew this was coming... you know why I didn't get attached to coptering? I knew one day this would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aigloblam Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 To anyone who will actually stop playing because of the removal of coptering, I don't think you'll be missed... Coptering is an exploit, it's been there a long time because the game is beta and they haven't gotten around to removing/fixing/replacing it but it's ALWAYS been an exploit. Deny it all you want but you are wrong. And an exploit was always going to be removed. They are just throwing it out, they are replacing it with a new, better movement system. And it just sounds really childish to see people whining about how not being able to use an exploit will ruin the game for them, and they might pack up their toys, take their ball and go home. We don't know what the new system will be, but from what they have shown and told us already, it's going to be a way more consistent system than coptering, with the removal of stamina. Coptering isn't being "nuked" it's being replaced with a better system. If the new parkour system has problems we can complain about what is wrong and ask for fixes then, but whining about it now is just ridiculous. The exploit was always going to go and we have to accept that. Hell, people shouldn't have gotten so attached. Again, the reason it was in the game so long is because the game is beta, you all knew this was coming... you know why I didn't get attached to coptering? I knew one day this would happen. How would you feel if DE suddenly decided "Space Ninjas shouldnt have guns, its just stupid" and took them away? Cause thats how integral it is to some players. I've went over the whole Exploit/Bug thing so many times now, obviously nobody paid attention to that, So i wont bring it back up. As for players leaving because of it, Thats the one part that i can agree with you on. Im fumingly and unapologetically PISSED off about it, But it certainly won't stop me from playing. I've put to much time, money, and effort in getting where i am. I can understand them being upset, but One mechanic change isn't going to stop me. Anyone who leaves because of this, I'm glad to see go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10thdivine Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 To anyone who will actually stop playing because of the removal of coptering, I don't think you'll be missed... Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract7777 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 How would you feel if DE suddenly decided "Space Ninjas shouldnt have guns, its just stupid" and took them away? Cause thats how integral it is to some players. I've went over the whole Exploit/Bug thing so many times now, obviously nobody paid attention to that, So i wont bring it back up. As for players leaving because of it, Thats the one part that i can agree with you on. Im fumingly and unapologetically PISSED off about it, But it certainly won't stop me from playing. I've put to much time, money, and effort in getting where i am. I can understand them being upset, but One mechanic change isn't going to stop me. Anyone who leaves because of this, I'm glad to see go. They wouldn't do that though. You can't really compare a movement exploit that causes people to equip melee for reasons other than using their melee for melee to them hypothetically taking away guns, it's not the same thing at all. And I read what you wrote, but the fact is it's still an exploit. Yes they shouldn't have left it in so long in the first place, because people got too attached. With that, I agree. But it was still an exploit, and you had to know this was coming eventually right? As for coptering being an "integral" part of the game? I disagree. Right now it's the go to movement system for people because there ISN'T a better movement system right now. But when it's gone it's not going to just disappear, it's supposed to be replaced with a system that is BETTER than what we have now. I'm not going to complain about an exploit being removed (even if they did allow it to exist for way too long), until I see what the new movement system looks like. If the new system for movement isn't very good, I'm sure we'll all give them feedback on how to make it good. : ) I'm just saying, considering it's beta and coptering is an exploit (again, whether they allowed it to exist too long, as you said, or not), we all had to see this coming... eventually it was going to be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racter Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I really don't understand people calling it an exploit. Initially, it was a bug, they saw how much everyone liked it and decided to make it a feature. It has since been modified once (or twice, can't remember) to be more effective. There is literally no chance that a bug, if they really considered it an exploit, would intentionally be made more effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvotheTheArcane1 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) And I read what you wrote, but the fact is it's still an exploit. Yes they shouldn't have left it in so long in the first place, because people got too attached. With that, I agree. But it was still an exploit, and you had to know this was coming eventually right? What if rocket jumping was considered an exploit, instead of a potential mechanic? Would you honestly say the world of gaming would be better off if it had been removed, and all of the games that use rocket jumping would be better for it? Or for that matter, any of the unintentional "extra" movement features? Edited June 20, 2015 by KvotheTheArcane1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtrmlnjuc Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) Coptering was a bug. It was turned into a feature at a time when Warframe as the game it's finally conceptualized to be was just coming into being. Parkour was still as bad as it is right now. Okay, we didn't have vaulting but you get what I mean. Zorencoptering was fun because it got you around fast. Lots of people liked it so they kept it as an unintended feature. Then Melee 2.0 came along and it became implemented into every weapon. With the current movement system, that's very welcome, as frames are usually slow, and the parkour system's still pretty janky. It's a bandaid. However, when you have a new movement system that's much more skill based and objectively better and more consistent than beating-physics-down-into-submission-ing, why not tone it down? After all, the tilesets were never designed for it (unlike Tribes or TF2), players without a fast weapon are getting left behind, movement controls are being ignored, and the game would leap bounds in terms of stylishness, skill, flexibility, and actual quality progress. Coptering brings in more problems than it solves, so it as a form of movement needs to be removed for the overall better. Sure, not right now when the movement system's inadequate, but when Parkour 2.0 finally arrives, it should go. Edited June 21, 2015 by wtrmlnjuc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvotheTheArcane1 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) It's a bandaid. Pretty much in a nutshell what most of DE's changes or fixes are, but I don't think coptering is a band aid. I think warm coat or ele resistances are bandaids. I think endless scaling of enemy HP is a bandaid. I think the massive grind and farming in WF is a band aid for content. However, when you have a new movement system that's much more skill based and objectively better and more consistent than beating-physics-down-into-submission-ing, why not tone it down? After all, the tilesets were never designed for it (unlike Tribes or TF2), players without a fast weapon are getting left behind, movement controls are being ignored, and the game would leap bounds in terms of stylishness, skill, flexibility, and actual quality progress. Coptering brings in more problems than it solves, so it as a form of movement needs to be removed for the overall better. Sure, not right now when the movement system's inadequate, but when Parkour 2.0 finally arrives, it should go. IF parkour 2.0 isn't janky, IF it's as fast as coptering, IF it's not completely situational, then maybe. Oh, and they'd need to design and redesign tilesets to allow the fluid speed parkouring too. So, no, coptering is pretty much here to stay. I think all DE should do for now is make all weapons copter equally within their own weapon set (i.e. large 2H weps like the scindo or gram or brokk all copter at the same speed), but overall should be pretty comparable to actual coptering weapons (i.e. zoren obviously). Larger the weapon is overall, the slower it copters (perhaps 20-25% at most slower than the zorens), but the better damage it will deal. Plus the majority of the player base would pretty much explode in fury if they removed coptering, and parkour 2.0 didn't completely replace coptering in everyway, which is a damn tall order, seeing as coptering can be done from anywhere, pretty much at any time, no skill required. Edited June 22, 2015 by KvotheTheArcane1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 What if rocket jumping was considered an exploit, instead of a potential mechanic? Would you honestly say the world of gaming would be better off if it had been removed, and all of the games that use rocket jumping would be better for it? Or for that matter, any of the unintentional "extra" movement features? Rocket jumping and coptering are apples and oranges, and you're comparing them in a vacuum besides. Rocket jumping wasn't the primary method of forward motion in a game with a parkour system, and rocket jumping has gotten more love than coptering ever has. Not to mention the two are different by nature, coptering is a momentum error and rocket jumping is intended behavior being used in a unique way. If they want to make coptering into a feature, that's fine. However in its current form coptering is not long for this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth99 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 In my opinion, coptering just forces me to use certain melee weapons just for mobility so i never use any heavy melee weapons at all (except for mastery fodders) infact melee is being used atm for just flying around ''coptering'' and there is no logic in that like how can u slash air with ur sword and fly? parkour 2.0 will atleast make us look like real ninjas that we are not helicopters flying around + now we will atleast put some effort into moving around instead of just flying around like headless chickens, i dont hate coptering, it just makes it easy for me to move around and rush missions fast get on top of things, BUT thats not just the way that moving should be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Feature or not, they're allowed to remove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract7777 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 So, no, coptering is pretty much here to stay. The denial is amazing. Wow. Wanting something doesn't make it real you know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MihawkDulacr1 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I dont understand the uproar very much. We haven't even seen an actual implementation of parkour 2.0 without coptering yet and people argue if it should stay or not? what if they go around and keep it in all of a sudden? Im not saying that no one should be worried, i just want to propose that we should wait for actual reveal of it before reasoning too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtrmlnjuc Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) IF parkour 2.0 isn't janky, IF it's as fast as coptering, IF it's not completely situational, then maybe. Oh, and they'd need to design and redesign tilesets to allow the fluid speed parkouring too. So, no, coptering is pretty much here to stay. I think all DE should do for now is make all weapons copter equally within their own weapon set (i.e. large 2H weps like the scindo or gram or brokk all copter at the same speed), but overall should be pretty comparable to actual coptering weapons (i.e. zoren obviously). Larger the weapon is overall, the slower it copters (perhaps 20-25% at most slower than the zorens), but the better damage it will deal. That's why they're making it. So it isn't janky. So it's fast and fluid. So it's not completely situational. So that it works with current tilesets. So that coptering can be toned down; these are all their main goals that they've discussed so far (candidly) on streams and on twitter. Slide attacks will still exist, coptering won't. Edited June 22, 2015 by wtrmlnjuc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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