Can We Talk About Ember? Because I've Got A Bone To Pick With De Over Her Kit.

[EinheriarJudith]

You misread my point. I was saying that in a comp specifically set up for her to buff everyone (both directly with the augment and indirectly with Accelerant), in a place that allowed us to hit all enemies with Accelerant, playing against mobs with no armor (CP), with a team all using heat damage on their weapons, she was still mediocre at best. In terms of direct damage, even with max power strength + Accelerant, her abilities fell off no later than ~45m (which may be considered fine by DE, I'm not sure, but most if not all other kill frames can go longer).

 

this is what i love about warframe there isn't just ONE frame. what your saying is hilarious if you study damage 2.0 against I. Flesh(infested) heat does 50% extra damage and against C. Flesh(grineer) heat does 25% extra damage ember is weak vs corpus period the same can be said about mag who is good on shield and corpus and bad on everything else or saryn who is good against armor and bad against shields ember owns grineer and infested and is moderate at fighting corrupted because of its mix. if i wanted to play corpus id use a different frame. just because i love ember doesn't mean ill use her for everything because it would defeat the purpose of having any other frame. play to the strengths not the weaknesses. there is also a difference between BDPS and DoT she is a sustain damage frame not a burst damage frame. in a team you can have burst DPS and embers sustained damage adds to the pot. if you dont understand this explanation there is little i can say but play what you like if it doesn't fit you it doesn't fit you but you are not everyone.

Edited June 22, 2015 by EinheriarJudith

[----Fenrir----]

Ember not being a camp frame = useless is a terrible argument.

 

Well, than what is Ember supposed to be? Because I dare you to do a solo +40 minutes T4 Survival run with Ember.

[SickoSike]

Ember is great and I have an amazing time with her when I don't feel like going with today's meta 

 

Well, than what is Ember supposed to be? Because I dare you to do a solo +40 minutes T4 Survival run with Ember.

Add me in-game I'll show you how to play with ember 40 mins T4 Survival. We'll duo the mission just to prove you how wrong you are about ember



She's one of the most funnest warframes I could ever have to bring with me in a mission, let alone with how this game is heavily revolved on pressing 4 to win, she has strategic ways in her kit that allows you to play with her the way you want her to be, Wanna rush an extermination quick and kill all grineers and corpus quick? run around press 4 and run to extraction. Want to be able to survive and play well late game for giggles and fun as players wonder how you can play Ember so well? press 2 and 3, and 4.

Her accelerant is such an amazing buff to her abilities, along with buffing fire damage weapons. (try Atomos with her, it's a joke) you need to be able to utilize it in your gameplay just as how Excalibur 2.0 is set up.

while I agree and I'm a fan of buffing warframes, why not make her more useful, but don't imply her as a useless warframe, if anything I'd say she's quite balanced compared to other warframes.


 

Edited June 22, 2015 by mikecliffs

[EinheriarJudith]

Ember is great and I have an amazing time with her when I don't feel like going with today's meta 

 

Add me in-game I'll show you how to play with ember 40 mins T4 Survival. We'll duo the mission just to prove you how wrong you are about ember

She's one of the most funnest warframes I could ever have to bring with me in a mission, let alone with how this game is heavily revolved on pressing 4 to win, she has strategic ways in her kit that allows you to play with her the way you want her to be, Wanna rush an extermination quick and kill all grineers and corpus quick? run around press 4 and run to extraction. Want to be able to survive and play well late game for giggles and fun as players wonder how you can play Ember so well? press 2 and 3, and 4.

Her accelerant is such an amazing buff to her abilities, along with buffing fire damage weapons. (try Atomos with her, it's a joke) you need to be able to utilize it in your gameplay just how Excalibur 2.0 is set up.

while I agree and I'm a fan of buffing warframes, why not make her more useful, but don't imply her as a useless warframe, if anything I'd say she's quite balanced compared to other warframes.

 

 

You sir have all my arrows lol she burninates the countryside nuff said ~_^.

[RealPandemonium]

Pretty much all these threads are just *wait for Ryjeon to post* and then the thread is over.  I'm gonna be sad when he finally burns out and gives up on replying to these, because I'm burnt out too.  Facts literally don't matter; only the uninformed opinions of non-Ember players are heard over the months and now years this keeps going on and on.  

Edited June 22, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Ryjeon]

Well I'm of mixed opinions about these threads. They've certainly driven me to improve and fine-tune my Ember over and over again since every time someone says Ember can't do damage I have to take her out and completely melt a mission to check to see if we're still living in the same world. It's weird because most of the game is sooo trivial especially with Ember's kit. Yesterday I ran a Draco pub with Overextended, Extinguished Key, and an unranked melee weapon. After 4 waves I still ended up doing a sizable portion of damage considering my ability damage was as low as it could go.

 

There's a lot of fun nuance to playing high-level Ember. It's more than just stacking power strength and heat damage and expecting everything to just melt because you're using your ultimate. There's a lot of situational factors in how you respond to the different enemy types and what sort of answer you bring to them in terms of weapons and other equipment. Ember is not a walking ultimate. World on Fire is a supplementary crowd control and damage aura that can be leveraged to have a massive impact on what's going on. What you do during it's duration determines whether you're getting the most out of Ember. (Hint:Status Effects http://i.imgur.com/qvp5HMx.png)

Edited June 22, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Racter]

this is what i love about warframe there isn't just ONE frame. what your saying is hilarious if you study damage 2.0 against I. Flesh(infested) heat does 50% extra damage and against C. Flesh(grineer) heat does 25% extra damage ember is weak vs corpus period the same can be said about mag who is good on shield and corpus and bad on everything else or saryn who is good against armor and bad against shields ember owns grineer and infested and is moderate at fighting corrupted because of its mix. if i wanted to play corpus id use a different frame. just because i love ember doesn't mean ill use her for everything because it would defeat the purpose of having any other frame. play to the strengths not the weaknesses. there is also a difference between BDPS and DoT she is a sustain damage frame not a burst damage frame. in a team you can have burst DPS and embers sustained damage adds to the pot. if you dont understand this explanation there is little i can say but play what you like if it doesn't fit you it doesn't fit you but you are not everyone.

 

I'm aware of the damage bonuses. I'm also aware of what Ember is capable of in terms of terms of damage with various maxed builds. I'm also not saying I don't like her, I do. In fact she was the first frame I started dumping forma into and IIRC the second frame I potato'd. Again, as I said above, I've tried her in an optimal scenario and still found her lacking. I'm not saying she's totally useless, just that she needs help.

 

I thought it was in this thread but apparently not, copied from one of my previous responses on Ember.

 

Her 3 is straight trash and really just needs to be replaced. It has literally no function other than preventing some ground based melee enemies from running through it, and even when they do run through it, it does zero damage. It doesn't protect you, or objectives, it doesn't stop status procs, or bees, or grappling hooks, or bullets rockets or grenades. I literally have not found a reason to ever press it, nor have I seen anyone use it to any (positive) effect anywhere ever. lol

 

World on Fire needs to be a toggle, exactly like EB. Cheap, decent range, solid damage, works. I'd like to see the base damage of it increased 2-300 so it can functionally kill things past level 20 without needing to hit every single mob with Accelerant. I would also like to see Accelerant's duration removed, as even when World on Fire no longer needs duration, Accelerant will still require it. Max strength/efficiency currently leaves it at a 1.9s debuff, which is barely enough time to hit someone at point blank range with a Fireball. The stagger effect is already unaffected by duration. These two changes (Accelerant unaffected by duration mods, WoF toggle) alone would make a world of difference in terms of modding, quality of life and usability. Having said that, she still wouldn't really be useful against level 80+ enemies (Raid) but would at least be fine for T4 level stuff longer than 40m. Those could at least be a band aid fix while we wait a few months for them to actually get to her and don't seem like they'd require a lot of time/money/effort on DE's part.

[SickoSike]

 Ember is not a walking ultimate. 

That's based on your opinion, not a fact on how other's can play ember, which I in essence disagree.

Run an extermination mission on a planet with a mission invasion node, especially with infested, just press 4 and run to extraction. Matter of fact she's my choice of warframe when I don't want to bother spending much time with those game modes so I can just finish the invasions ASAP for materials I would need or like to have.

Some of the mechanics revolve on her mobility, how is she not a warframe with a walking ultimate ability that gives a good amount of crowd control? She could be built exactly like that.

Edited June 22, 2015 by mikecliffs

[Hypernaut1]

Well I'm of mixed opinions about these threads. They've certainly driven me to improve and fine-tune my Ember over and over again since every time someone says Ember can't do damage I have to take her out and completely melt a mission to check to see if we're still living in the same world. It's weird because most of the game is sooo trivial especially with Ember's kit. Yesterday I ran a Draco pub with Overextended, Extinguished Key, and an unranked melee weapon. After 4 waves I still ended up doing a sizable portion of damage considering my ability damage was as low as it could go.

 

There's a lot of fun nuance to playing high-level Ember. It's more than just stacking power strength and heat damage and expecting everything to just melt because you're using your ultimate. There's a lot of situational factors in how you respond to the different enemy types and what sort of answer you bring to them in terms of weapons and other equipment. Ember is not a walking ultimate. World on Fire is a supplementary crowd control and damage aura that can be leveraged to have a massive impact on what's going on. What you do during it's duration determines whether you're getting the most out of Ember. (Hint:Status Effects http://i.imgur.com/qvp5HMx.png)

i so wish you could post a video one day.

[EinheriarJudith]

I'm aware of the damage bonuses. I'm also aware of what Ember is capable of in terms of terms of damage with various maxed builds. I'm also not saying I don't like her, I do. In fact she was the first frame I started dumping forma into and IIRC the second frame I potato'd. Again, as I said above, I've tried her in an optimal scenario and still found her lacking. I'm not saying she's totally useless, just that she needs help.

 

I thought it was in this thread but apparently not, copied from one of my previous responses on Ember.

 

Her 3 is straight trash and really just needs to be replaced. It has literally no function other than preventing some ground based melee enemies from running through it, and even when they do run through it, it does zero damage. It doesn't protect you, or objectives, it doesn't stop status procs, or bees, or grappling hooks, or bullets rockets or grenades. I literally have not found a reason to ever press it, nor have I seen anyone use it to any (positive) effect anywhere ever. lol

 

World on Fire needs to be a toggle, exactly like EB. Cheap, decent range, solid damage, works. I'd like to see the base damage of it increased 2-300 so it can functionally kill things past level 20 without needing to hit every single mob with Accelerant. I would also like to see Accelerant's duration removed, as even when World on Fire no longer needs duration, Accelerant will still require it. Max strength/efficiency currently leaves it at a 1.9s debuff, which is barely enough time to hit someone at point blank range with a Fireball. The stagger effect is already unaffected by duration. These two changes (Accelerant unaffected by duration mods, WoF toggle) alone would make a world of difference in terms of modding, quality of life and usability. Having said that, she still wouldn't really be useful against level 80+ enemies (Raid) but would at least be fine for T4 level stuff longer than 40m. Those could at least be a band aid fix while we wait a few months for them to actually get to her and don't seem like they'd require a lot of time/money/effort on DE's part.

 

i get where you're coming from. frost and ember share a commonality where snow globe should not have a duration since it has HP and I'm sure they are about to change that with his update. WoF is a toggle and should not have duration and energy drain it should be one or the other and not both. what i like about fire blast outside its gorgeous CC is that if you have a Loki in the group it becomes that much more dangerous and it does burn targets passing through just not on the inside(I'm sure this could but updated to be more effective)

Edited June 22, 2015 by EinheriarJudith

[izzatuw]

First get ember prime she comes with 3 polarity at the gate. 4 corrupted mods LMAO wait what? Do you even play ember? I do and shes fricken amazing.

Did they tweak that? Doesn't she come with 2 - instead but not an extra polarity?

[EinheriarJudith]

Did they tweak that? Doesn't she come with 2 - instead but not an extra polarity?

 

honestly i cant remember most of them come with 3 loki is the only one that comes with 4

[Archwizard]

Most of Ember's defenders jump on the level of CC she brings with her abilities - and that's fine, if you're not looking for much. The trouble is, her CC is unreliable compared to most.

 

Panic procs, and the knockback from Fire Blast, can be resisted if the target is performing another animation (like receiving any other status first) when the status is applied - and Fire Blast's the only way to apply Panic reliably anyway. World on Fire has a set number of explosions it can let off per second, and I for one have seen a lot of situations where enemies have gotten close and the explosions still fire off a half mile away since it's wholly subject to RNGesus. Accelerant has a stagger, but it only lasts for a couple of seconds; not really enough to lock an enemy down for a meaningful period, just to give her a couple of free shots, or a headstart on running away.

 

Her skills have incidental CC - which she can spam to perfection since she has so many that do basically the same thing, giving the illusion of consistency via minor extensions - but I wouldn't ask one to defend the cryopod past Wave 15, or lock down adds in a Trial. Her CC is there to protect her, and even then a little bad luck can completely screw her, especially if she needs to stop for any period. It's not a matter of being unfit for farming; if I can't reliably stun a target in one blast long enough to revive an ally or hack a console, it's not a stun my team can even use. Heaven forbid that was my last bit of energy, because I have about 2 seconds to refuel before the onslaught cometh.

 

The real trouble I find with her kit is that I don't think the devs know what they want to do with her. She started off with a fairly decent kit, with Overheat allowing her to close the gap so she could use her Fire Blast and World on Fire safely, but then the devs decided they wanted to take her in a different direction (likely because Overheat was overpowered, but was the one leg holding up the class). They've been working to push her towards a more traditional caster (between Accelerant and the knockback on Fire Blast), but they still seem to see her as the armored suicide bomber class she started as, with World on Fire being executed essentially the same way it always has.

 

If the devs really want to redefine her, they need to decide exactly what they want her to be - and I think that starts with taking a hard look at World on Fire's place in her kit. How is a caster who focuses on keeping enemies at bay supposed to have a point-blank skill as a payoff? It works for "Oh Sh-" buttons like Accelerant and Fire Blast to give her breathing room, but as an active offense?

Edited June 22, 2015 by Archwizard

[izzatuw]

honestly i cant remember most of them come with 3 loki is the only one that comes with 4

Well if I'm not wrong she got an alternate polarity but not an extra one.

[Ryjeon]

That's based on your opinion, not a fact on how other's can play ember, which I in essence disagree.

Run an extermination mission on a planet with a mission invasion node, especially with infested, just press 4 and run to extraction. Matter of fact she's my choice of warframe when I don't want to bother spending much time with those game modes so I can just finish the invasions ASAP for materials I would need or like to have.

Some of the mechanics revolve on her mobility, how is she not a warframe with a walking ultimate ability that gives a good amount of crowd control? She could be built exactly like that.

 

That's fine if that's what you're setting out to optimize her for. I was moreso commenting that Ember's potential is not defined by one action. It wasn't meant to be a reference to the fact that Ember actually can walk during her ultimate. But hey, good catch.

 

 

i so wish you could post a video one day.

 

I've got a stream on Twitch. But I haven't been satisfied with my quality so I haven't stream in a while and don't have any Ember highlights. I'll try to get streaming again when the weather cools down some. http://www.twitch.tv/ryjeon/profile

 

 

-snip-

 

Well said. I largely disagree because I value some of the things you see as flaws or just think they're not such a severe issue. But it's good feedback that should be considered for Ember's future iterations. I find her the most satisfying to play in the current content. But I do think her kit will need further redevelopment in the future for much of your reasons given.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Ryjeon

[00zau]

I think all warframes should be, instead, nerfed to her state. No more 30+ seconds of slow or immobility or confusion. No more invulnerability. Only 5 seconds stuns and knockdowns top.

That would just make warframe choice purely cosmetic, with only your weapons actually mattering. Warframes have abilities so that they can effect the game with them.

[EinheriarJudith]

-Snip-

 

so anyone who plays ember and enjoys her CC isnt looking for much? I disagree in fact ive grown tired of carrying people in this game this doesn't just apply to ember but when I'm on her, teams i end up in i pull the weight of 2 or 3 people unless its survival or mobile def.

 

anyone who is in the middle of an animation will Poise/resist CC and in that all CC is unreliable. i like that the enemies can resist CC if they couldnt it would be boring want to see a game where you cant resist CC? play GW2 PVP and have a engineer CC you till you're dead.

 

all her skills are viable. your description of her roll in team tactics is based off? there are better people who can res team mates like loki ash rhino mirage nova valkyr and in your team one or 2 of those examples are bound to be in it. its called communication and if the off chance your reviver is down the others can lay down cover fire. if your whole team is down you have 5 options(sanctuary, accelerant, fire blast, Wof, and Team Health restore) fire blast will keep smaller units away from you while its up. not every frame should be a tank and I'm glad they aren't also remember that people can still move while their downed they need to try to move closer to cover to make it easier.

 

I keep seeing the complaint about WoF. i have one issue with it in fact the way you describe that its RNG i completely disagree any enemy within range immediately takes damage i have never seen it not hit its targets continuously. if you have i think you might be dealing with poor latency/high ping. my only complaint with Wof is that it has 2 negatives(duration, energy drain) if you dont use range mods dont expect to hit enemies at a distance. with the basic stretch mod both accelerant and Wof have a pretty good range.

 

i said it once before ill say it again ember is SUSTAINED DPS she is not a burst DPS frame all her powers that do damage do it instantly and over time. her ability to be mobile while controlling the flow of combat while dealing damage makes her play style preferable to people who dont like standing in on spot like you do with rhino and nova and *Mesa* and mag etc. her style is more like loki and ash and excal 2.0 and valkyr.

 

DE would destroy this frame by turning it into a press 4 and do nothing else.

Edited June 22, 2015 by EinheriarJudith

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

I've never seen Mind Control, Chaos, Vortex, Bastille, blinds, ragolls or hey, even Accelerant be resisted by an enemy who just got hit with an Impact proc. It's just that Accelerant's the shortest of that list anyway.

 

Half of Ember's skills (particularly Fireball) are only "viable" because of a function I could pull off just as well or better with Molten Impact and a Grakata. I agree that she has a lot of potential, but when you've got to spam effects to keep the CC up, and resort to every trick in the book (including those available to anyone) to give yourself a breather, you're clearly lagging behind.

 

I didn't even complain about WoF's range... I've seen it making explosions way behind incoming targets, in lieu of coming near one it already hit too quickly in succession.

 

I might believe the "sustained DPS" thing if not for two major issues:

1) Heat is the only DoT status that doesn't stack on itself (and also the only one that doesn't ignore shields and/or armor); its procs overwrite each other. (Remember how I said Fire Blast is the only 100% reliable way of inflicting a proc? It's also got the weakest base damage - and therefore weakest DoT - and now knocks enemies out of the ring it makes to boot.)

2) Ability damage is kind of crap in higher level play.

 

And while I agree that "Press 4" frames are detrimental to the game... isn't Ember already basically a Press 4 frame? I remember a lot of public Exterminates and Survivals where an Ember would pop up, hit World on Fire and book it. And now she has free knockdown for it.

Just because I'm saying to change her 4 does not mean I want her to press 4 mindlessly - I did say payoff, which implies buildup.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Archwizard

[ShortCat]

Ember is not in that bad spot right now. Her #3 is one of the worst abilities in the game, the others and even her ult are not that bad. Just because mesa or mirage can clean rooms doesn't make her weak.

 

 

That balanced build you posted really can't even handle T4E effectively let alone endless missions/raids. While I agree that something like the build you posted is currently your best option for building her really (at least atm), it's still not good.

 

The 175% power strength is more than enough for T4E, I don't know what you are talking about.

 

I am surprised there is no demand for Ember right now after Atomos has been released. 4 CPs and Atomos with viral-fire build buffed with accelerant is one of the best lategame compositions ever!

[izzatuw]

Ember is not in that bad spot right now. Her #3 is one of the worst abilities in the game, the others and even her ult are not that bad. Just because mesa or mirage can clean rooms doesn't make her weak.

That balanced build you posted really can't even handle T4E effectively let alone endless missions/raids. While I agree that something like the build you posted is currently your best option for building her really (at least atm), it's still not good.

The 175% power strength is more than enough for T4E, I don't know what you are talking about.

I am surprised there is no demand for Ember right now after Atomos has been released. 4 CPs and Atomos with viral-fire build buffed with accelerant is one of the best lategame compositions ever!

It's probably because Nova already buffs damage in general.

[ShortCat]

It's probably because Nova already buffs damage in general.

Why not both?

[----Fenrir----]

i said it once before ill say it again ember is SUSTAINED DPS she is not a burst DPS frame all her powers that do damage do it instantly and over time. her ability to be mobile while controlling the flow of combat while dealing damage makes her play style preferable to people who dont like standing in on spot like you do with rhino and nova and *Mesa* and mag etc. her style is more like loki and ash and excal 2.0 and valkyr.

 

DE would destroy this frame by turning it into a press 4 and do nothing else.

 

Just no, I don't want another press one button wo win frame (which Ember btw is it's just that she is less effective than other frames at it). And you can not really compare Ember to frames like Loki, Ash, or the new Excalibur. Because Ember lacks something all those frames have, which is an ability that boosts their survivability.

 

Loki & Ash = Invisibility

Valkyre = insane armor values + Hysteria

Excalibur = an effective long range stun ability (radial blind)

 

Ember has nothing like that since they removed "Overheat" or how it was called. She needs to get rather close yet has no abilities to make her able to actually survive that against higher level enemies.

Edited June 22, 2015 by ----Fenrir----

[Judgebanks]

I keep seeing the complaint about WoF. i have one issue with it in fact the way you describe that its RNG i completely disagree any enemy within range immediately takes damage i have never seen it not hit its targets continuously. if you have i think you might be dealing with poor latency/high ping. my only complaint with Wof is that it has 2 negatives(duration, energy drain) if you dont use range mods dont expect to hit enemies at a distance. with the basic stretch mod both accelerant and Wof have a pretty good range.

 

That's because you haven't been playing Ember since day one, It's effectively gone from all targets to 1 target to 3 targets to 5 targets, With each target upgrade increasing the overall damage and neutering aspects like range and efficiency.

 

She gets metrically shutdown by Bombards firing from cross map due to lack of defense, any Nullifier 120+ pray that it's not a leech/guardian eximus, and Ancient Healers which destroy World on Fire's damage.

 

Ember is Okay in Sub level 60 content, starts to fall of drastically damage wise at 95+.

 

If you're going to bring a CC frame, Banshee does a far better job at both damage buffing, control, and the opportunity to work into a finisher party.

 

If you don't believe me, take some time to read:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/World_On_Fire

[Hypernaut1]

That's because you haven't been playing Ember since day one, It's effectively gone from all targets to 1 target to 3 targets to 5 targets, With each target upgrade increasing the overall damage and neutering aspects like range and efficiency.

 

She gets metrically shutdown by Bombards firing from cross map due to lack of defense, any Nullifier 120+ pray that it's not a leech/guardian eximus, and Ancient Healers which destroy World on Fire's damage.

 

Ember is Okay in Sub level 60 content, starts to fall of drastically damage wise at 95+.

 

If you're going to bring a CC frame, Banshee does a far better job at both damage buffing, control, and the opportunity to work into a finisher party.

 

If you don't believe me, take some time to read:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/World_On_Fire

wrong, it hits 5 enemies on intitial blast. This is an improvement over how it worked before. Again, it seems that people who dont play Ember campaign the most to turn her into an easy-mode frame. \

 

You claim she is not good past level 60, despite the fact that Ember players say otherwise. Clearly there is a skill gap for her, and that is a good thing

[Hueminator]

I gotta say that it is quite impressive already to use damage ability and last at lvl 60.  Most damage ability fall short at lvl 30.

 

I do agree her #3 is very bad though.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Hueminator