The Master Forma Solution

[SiiNN321]

It helps with the burn out people face from pointless grinding. Plus, you still have to make or purchase the weapon. It gets people to try more than just their boltor prime, and it encourages people to spend more money on weapon slots in addition to getting them to play more.

I think you're wrong but first let's look at the game and the concept of a forma.

A forma is a one time use item that amplifies the damage or utility of your weapon. But the forma is rarely ever something that gives the player instant gratification. It resets the weapon's level and requires some experience to get it as good as you had it pre-forma (whichever iteration). The catch is, it requires less levels and less grind to make it as good as it was and when maxed, provides more points for more mods than it had pre-forma. The concept of delayed gratuity means that you have to work for your eventually OP weapon. In the long run these repeat levelings should result in development of your skill using that weapon. More skill = better player.

This concept of the forma is very unlike the concept of a orokin catalyst or reactor. The potato gives instant gratuity and the points are immediately there after use. This does not build skill or weapon mastery but does make it better and makes subsequent formas more effective.

So now onto this forum post. The forma is supposed to build skill and weapon understanding. By skippng the early levels, and easily most important ones due to a weapon with no mods being far less effective than with mods, it means you miss out a great opportunity to better yourself as a player and a gamer (on higher level enemies particularly). So skipping these early levels means less skill. With less skill you get more people who can't carry their weight. With less skill, it's difficult to find good players who want to run T4s to the upper 100s since they are afraid (or choose not to) challenge themselves.

I am all for challenge and believe most people here should be too. But I know that viewpoint is not shared amongst this community, or at least not amongst the vocal ones.

I don't like the idea of MR skipping weapon ranks. It ruins the fun of playing a weapon from the start and getting better.

Now as for player burnout, that's a different story. Players get burned out when they grind themselves to oblivion and this game isn't about grind. Truly it isn't. You never have to forma a weapon or frame. You hardly have to level any weapons you don't want to. Only thing that can be remotely called grind is rerunning void missions over and over to get a piece you want. Which even then you can choose to buy with plat. Player burnout is people running draco over and over again to max and re-forma their weapons.

If you want to avoid that, stop running missions for levels. Run missions to enjoy them. To enjoy what DE has created for you. Play mission modes you like. Play it with people you know. Player burnout is the players fault, not DEs.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I think you're wrong but first let's look at the game and the concept of a forma.

A forma is a one time use item that amplifies the damage or utility of your weapon. But the forma is rarely ever something that gives the player instant gratification. It resets the weapon's level and requires some experience to get it as good as you had it pre-forma (whichever iteration). The catch is, it requires less levels and less grind to make it as good as it was and when maxed, provides more points for more mods than it had pre-forma. The concept of delayed gratuity means that you have to work for your eventually OP weapon. In the long run these repeat levelings should result in development of your skill using that weapon. More skill = better player.

This concept of the forma is very unlike the concept of a orokin catalyst or reactor. The potato gives instant gratuity and the points are immediately there after use. This does not build skill or weapon mastery but does make it better and makes subsequent formas more effective.

So now onto this forum post. The forma is supposed to build skill and weapon understanding. By skippng the early levels, and easily most important ones due to a weapon with no mods being far less effective than with mods, it means you miss out a great opportunity to better yourself as a player and a gamer (on higher level enemies particularly). So skipping these early levels means less skill. With less skill you get more people who can't carry their weight. With less skill, it's difficult to find good players who want to run T4s to the upper 100s since they are afraid (or choose not to) challenge themselves.

I am all for challenge and believe most people here should be too. But I know that viewpoint is not shared amongst this community, or at least not amongst the vocal ones.

I don't like the idea of MR skipping weapon ranks. It ruins the fun of playing a weapon from the start and getting better.

Now as for player burnout, that's a different story. Players get burned out when they grind themselves to oblivion and this game isn't about grind. Truly it isn't. You never have to forma a weapon or frame. You hardly have to level any weapons you don't want to. Only thing that can be remotely called grind is rerunning void missions over and over to get a piece you want. Which even then you can choose to buy with plat. Player burnout is people running draco over and over again to max and re-forma their weapons.

If you want to avoid that, stop running missions for levels. Run missions to enjoy them. To enjoy what DE has created for you. Play mission modes you like. Play it with people you know. Player burnout is the players fault, not DEs.

 

Precisely.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

What would an MR30 player do?  Your system would just let them apply 5 forma instantly after the first leveling.

This is why I suggested capping it at rank 25. Please read the thread before casting stones.

Edited July 1, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

This is why I suggested capping it at rank 25. Please read the thread before casting stones.

 

No one is casting any stones.  It's my opinion which goes against your idea.  If you come up with an idea not everyone is going to agree with it.

 

Even with the level 25 cap SiiNN321's many points above are right, and I'll maintain my opinion that the word mastery describes mastering something.  If you skip the difficult part of using a weapon (that is going into a fight with it while it is weaker and unranked) then there's nothing being mastered at all.

 

The burnout isn't coming from us forma'ing our weapons.  It's coming from needless grind for items with infinitesimally small drop rates.  Playing the same missions dozens/hundreds of times to not get that prime part, etc.  Not having a system that allows us to trade in 25 copies of an unwanted prime part for the one we really want, etc.  (It's not only primes, the same would apply for stalker gear, detron, brakk, etc.)  I mean if we got 20 copies of a dread BP, why can't we trade it in for a despair bp?

 

Burnout also happens from playing certain missions over and over in hopes of getting a particular mod only being left disappointed.

 

It can be argued that players need to control themselves, but there's also a balance that needs to be maintained between what is considered to be a fair amount of effort to achieve a fair amount of progression.

Edited July 2, 2015 by sushidubya

[Soulgazer]

Good idea. I have no desire to replay low end content to relevel weapons, so it's either spy after spy as Loki or Draco for me. T1s/d for frames.

[Soulgazer]

I think you're wrong but first let's look at the game and the concept of a forma.

A forma is a one time use item that amplifies the damage or utility of your weapon. But the forma is rarely ever something that gives the player instant gratification. It resets the weapon's level and requires some experience to get it as good as you had it pre-forma (whichever iteration). The catch is, it requires less levels and less grind to make it as good as it was and when maxed, provides more points for more mods than it had pre-forma. The concept of delayed gratuity means that you have to work for your eventually OP weapon. In the long run these repeat levelings should result in development of your skill using that weapon. More skill = better player.

This concept of the forma is very unlike the concept of a orokin catalyst or reactor. The potato gives instant gratuity and the points are immediately there after use. This does not build skill or weapon mastery but does make it better and makes subsequent formas more effective.

So now onto this forum post. The forma is supposed to build skill and weapon understanding. By skippng the early levels, and easily most important ones due to a weapon with no mods being far less effective than with mods, it means you miss out a great opportunity to better yourself as a player and a gamer (on higher level enemies particularly). So skipping these early levels means less skill. With less skill you get more people who can't carry their weight. With less skill, it's difficult to find good players who want to run T4s to the upper 100s since they are afraid (or choose not to) challenge themselves.

I am all for challenge and believe most people here should be too. But I know that viewpoint is not shared amongst this community, or at least not amongst the vocal ones.

I don't like the idea of MR skipping weapon ranks. It ruins the fun of playing a weapon from the start and getting better.

Now as for player burnout, that's a different story. Players get burned out when they grind themselves to oblivion and this game isn't about grind. Truly it isn't. You never have to forma a weapon or frame. You hardly have to level any weapons you don't want to. Only thing that can be remotely called grind is rerunning void missions over and over to get a piece you want. Which even then you can choose to buy with plat. Player burnout is people running draco over and over again to max and re-forma their weapons.

If you want to avoid that, stop running missions for levels. Run missions to enjoy them. To enjoy what DE has created for you. Play mission modes you like. Play it with people you know. Player burnout is the players fault, not DEs.

 

Now that I'm off my phone, let me disagree with your disagreement, at least for weapons.  Given his idea, you already have to level a weapon to 30 once.  You say that levelling it again grants greater understanding or something, but does it really?  Reaaaally?  You already went through it once, which is hours of play if you don't powerlevel.  If you are forma-ing a weapon, you probably have a bunch of maxed or high rank damage mods that you want to put on it.  All that really changes about the weapon is that it takes one or two fewer shots to kill someone once maxed then it did earlier.  While this is massively important in the endgame, early on, nothing really changes.  You start with an unranked weapon, and go through the game's difficulty curve according to how many mods you have on it.  By the time the forma actually influences your game beyond accelerating the speed at which you move through the curve, you are in your 20s with the weapon  (even 8 forma only doubles a weapon's effective capacity, so the difference between a unformad weapon and a formad one would be rank 15 vs max, and if you are above MR 15).  

 

Having forma'd weapons several times back when Kappa was considered powerlevelling, I can't really say that taking it into lower level missions and sloooowly levelling it up through dozens to hundreds of exterminates grants some great insight into the weapon.  Its not as if most weapons are so separate from each other that each one requires you to spend days with it to understand how it works.  By the time you are a veteran at the game, you should be able to look at a weapon's damage spread, status chance, and crit statistics and know how to mod it for maximum performance, and how it should be used in game.  Generally, if you have the mods to require forma and enough forma to use it a lot, you are probably fairly experienced already (or you are a massive whale/powerleveller, in which case this changes nothing to your playstyle).

 

As for the oh so common "just play the game" argument, if the game you want to play is the endgame (and you are a veteran player who has been at the endgame, who has the mods, experience, and weapon variety to succeed there), then all the forma system does is drag you down to the lower, deserted sections of the game.  For example, I like heading into T4 survival alone and seeing how long I last (especially without stealth or tunnel strats).  Forma-ing a weapon is critical to extending that period of time.  

Edited July 2, 2015 by Soulgazer

[Phatose]

Eh.  It's not a terrible, game killing idea or anything, but I doubt it would actually solve anything.

 

Formaing equipment isn't really a major burnout cause.  It's just not a massive enough task to be a serious burn-out contender.  While I don't doubt that there are some players who obsessively forma equipment, I doubt this would actually stop them grinding formas.  It would take less time to forma any particular piece of equipment - but realistically, the obsessive types for who burnout aren't doing so out of necessity.

 

Instead of spending a few hours formaing 1 piece of equipment, they'd spend it formaing 3 or 4.  And they'd just forma more items, with the same grinding.

[Ve1indian]

The worst part about putting forma on a weapon is those first first few ranks where you deal no damage due to having no capacity, this would make it more bareable to start off. Plus in order to get MR you need to level different weapons, so it gives people who use many weapons an easier time putting multiple forma on newer weapons over time.

 

+1

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

No one is casting any stones.  It's my opinion which goes against your idea.  If you come up with an idea not everyone is going to agree with it.

 

Even with the level 25 cap SiiNN321's many points above are right, and I'll maintain my opinion that the word mastery describes mastering something.  If you skip the difficult part of using a weapon (that is going into a fight with it while it is weaker and unranked) then there's nothing being mastered at all.

False.  You took it from rank 0 to 30 initially. That's when you mastered it. You get zero mastery rank points for re-leveling after a forma, so not even the game considers it as being remastered.

 

Soulgazer (post #31) gets it.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

False.  You took it from rank 0 to 30 initially. That's when you mastered it. You get zero mastery rank points for re-leveling after a forma, so not even the game considers it as being remastered.

 

Soulgazer (post #31) gets it.

 

Ehh...  I'm not talking from a mastery points perspective.  I know you only get mastery points once.  What I'm saying is that putting a forma on a weapon to gain the power it provides should require going from 0-30 all over again.  It's a reward.

 

I get your whole idea, understand why you'd want it this way.  I just feel it's an unfair advantage for high MR players, and don't really feel it's going to change the grind as you're claiming it will.  I've posted earlier on what I think causes burnout in this game, and dropping forma and re-leveling items isn't one of those things.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Ehh...  I'm not talking from a mastery points perspective.  I know you only get mastery points once.  What I'm saying is that putting a forma on a weapon to gain the power it provides should require going from 0-30 all over again.  It's a reward.

 

I get your whole idea, understand why you'd want it this way.  I just feel it's an unfair advantage for high MR players, and don't really feel it's going to change the grind as you're claiming it will.  I've posted earlier on what I think causes burnout in this game, and dropping forma and re-leveling items isn't one of those things.

It should not. The grind is needlessly tedious on weapons you need to forma 6 times.  That grind leads to exploits like Draco. You would still need to raise weapons from level 25 to 30 at best, which is still approximately 1/3 of the total grind. The game doesn't give you extra mastery rank for it, so the game does not consider it remastering the weapon.

 

It gives something to do with all that forma you just have lying around, making getting forma in the void feel less like a punishment.  It's not an unfair advantage for high MR players. It is an incentive to raise your mastery rank. 

 

I am only MR 10 BTW.  There really isn't any reason to go past rank 8 currently. I would only get to start out at MR 10.  That's not very much, but it would be enough to at least let me slap serration on my weapon right away, rather than taking my end game modded frame to mercury with an unmodded primary, and nuke everything in a Warframe Neophyte's game, ruining the experience for both of us, and souring them on the game before they even really started. Yes, I could purposely gimp myself, but I won't.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

It should not. The grind is needlessly tedious on weapons you need to forma 6 times.  That grind leads to exploits like Draco. You would still need to raise weapons from level 25 to 30 at best, which is still approximately 1/3 of the total grind. The game doesn't give you extra mastery rank for it, so the game does not consider it remastering the weapon.

 

It gives something to do with all that forma you just have lying around, making getting forma in the void feel less like a punishment.  It's not an unfair advantage for high MR players. It is an incentive to raise your mastery rank. 

 

I am only MR 10 BTW.  There really isn't any reason to go past rank 8 currently. I would only get to start out at MR 10.  That's not very much, but it would be enough to at least let me slap serration on my weapon right away, rather than taking my end game modded frame to mercury with an unmodded primary, and nuke everything in a Warframe Neophyte's game, ruining the experience for both of us, and souring them on the game before they even really started. Yes, I could purposely gimp myself, but I won't.

Again there's that word "need" again. No one is forcing anyone to max/forma all their weapons. I do feel that to earn the power of a maxed weapon that players should re-level them. It's a rite of passage like maxing a serration or any other rank 10 mod for that matter.

I guess we have different definitions on what causes burnout. For me burning out is feeling like my efforts are wasted, too much effort for too little reward, and in this game it's mostly the low drop chances of certain items causing needless grind that causes burnout. (I have no problems running 20-30 missions for a warframe or weapon, but when it gets to 50-100 times it's a bit excessive.)

I have no problem understanding your logic and reasoning behind what you're suggesting, but I just don't feel it's necessary and won't prevent player burnout in the way you want it to. There are other things DE needs to fix if that's what they really want for us.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Again there's that word "need" again. No one is forcing anyone to max/forma all their weapons. I do feel that to earn the power of a maxed weapon that players should re-level them. It's a rite of passage like maxing a serration or any other rank 10 mod for that matter.

I guess we have different definitions on what causes burnout. For me burning out is feeling like my efforts are wasted, too much effort for too little reward, and in this game it's mostly the low drop chances of certain items causing needless grind that causes burnout. (I have no problems running 20-30 missions for a warframe or weapon, but when it gets to 50-100 times it's a bit excessive.)

I have no problem understanding your logic and reasoning behind what you're suggesting, but I just don't feel it's necessary and won't prevent player burnout in the way you want it to. There are other things DE needs to fix if that's what they really want for us.

Forma is going to waste and angering the player base as it stands. People are just mindlessly grinding on Draco to get weapons back to max, whereas if they could start weapons off at rank 25, they would be more likely to just play normally, reducing burnout.

 

Taking Mesa to Draco is not "earning" anything. Grinding a weapon from 0 to 30 is not earning anything. It's just pointless tedium. 

 

Burnout comes from having to do the same braindead things over and over.  I want to drop several forma on a weapon and take it into end game missions for fun. I don't want to grind Mercury missions or stand on Draco/Sechura until my weapon is ready to use again.

 

I think it will not only prevent burnout, but it will also promote weapon variety and make players less hostile to forma, especially if forma build times are cut at the same time. Not to mention what it would do for the sale of weapon and frame slots.

[---RNGesus---]

I like this. Kudos to the OP +1

[Yezzik]

I like this idea, though I don't think it'll be enough to make Mastery worthwhile.

[Datsher]

This should be called The Final Forma Solution.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Forma is going to waste and angering the player base as it stands. People are just mindlessly grinding on Draco to get weapons back to max, whereas if they could start weapons off at rank 25, they would be more likely to just play normally, reducing burnout.

 

Taking Mesa to Draco is not "earning" anything. Grinding a weapon from 0 to 30 is not earning anything. It's just pointless tedium. 

 

Burnout comes from having to do the same braindead things over and over.  I want to drop several forma on a weapon and take it into end game missions for fun. I don't want to grind Mercury missions or stand on Draco/Sechura until my weapon is ready to use again.

 

I think it will not only prevent burnout, but it will also promote weapon variety and make players less hostile to forma, especially if forma build times are cut at the same time. Not to mention what it would do for the sale of weapon and frame slots.

 

Not seeing it the same way unfortunately.  Also, I think you're misunderstanding my replies and opinions for an argument and I'm not here to have one with you.

 

Forma'ing items is entirely optional and again, the maps/methods you mentioned for leveling your gear are also player choice.  It's the same thing as anything else like powerleveling, camping powerfarms, etc.  Those are all player choices and the players themselves are making their experience mindless.

 

Our philosophies differ and that's perfectly fine.  In my opinion it's genuinely up to the player not to use the "meta" and I've had no problem with leveling/forma'ing my favorite weapons, nor have I felt that it caused me to burn out in any way.

 

I will say that before trading existed I did almost burn out and almost quit because it was ridiculously difficult to get a Braton Prime Barrel. (we had to run T3D for 30 waves and there was no 5 wave extraction option to consider it a mission complete)  I had to run T3D over 150 times to finally get the barrel.  It was a severe turn off for me.  That kind of thing causes players to burn out for sure.

 

Again...  I'm disagreeing with you not disrespecting you in any way.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Not seeing it the same way unfortunately.  Also, I think you're misunderstanding my replies and opinions for an argument and I'm not here to have one with you.

 

Forma'ing items is entirely optional and again, the maps/methods you mentioned for leveling your gear are also player choice.  It's the same thing as anything else like powerleveling, camping powerfarms, etc.  Those are all player choices and the players themselves are making their experience mindless.

 

Our philosophies differ and that's perfectly fine.  In my opinion it's genuinely up to the player not to use the "meta" and I've had no problem with leveling/forma'ing my favorite weapons, nor have I felt that it caused me to burn out in any way.

 

I will say that before trading existed I did almost burn out and almost quit because it was ridiculously difficult to get a Braton Prime Barrel. (we had to run T3D for 30 waves and there was no 5 wave extraction option to consider it a mission complete)  I had to run T3D over 150 times to finally get the barrel.  It was a severe turn off for me.  That kind of thing causes players to burn out for sure.

 

Again...  I'm disagreeing with you not disrespecting you in any way.

DE sees it as a problem, hence the G-Pull nerf. Rather that slapping a band-aid on it. I am suggesting this as a solution to the underlying issue.

 

I do see it as a problem.  I don't like spending time releveling a weapon just to make it useful, immediately losing the progress I made on it up to that point. That's what causes me to burn out. I don't even mind drop rates. I enjoy the loot hunt, and the drop rates seems better than in games like Borderlands 2.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

DE sees it as a problem, hence the G-Pull nerf. Rather that slapping a band-aid on it. I am suggesting this as a solution to the underlying issue.

 

I do see it as a problem.  I don't like spending time releveling a weapon just to make it useful, immediately losing the progress I made on it up to that point. That's what causes me to burn out. I don't even mind drop rates. I enjoy the loot hunt, and the drop rates seems better than in games like Borderlands 2.

 

The drop rates are better than what they used to be, but still can be improved.  Tons of players have in fact  burned out and left in the past couple of years due to drop rate problems, and the game you're playing today is a result of us leaving feedback and our opinions.

 

Well my reply has nothing to do with the g-pull nerf, draco or mesa which you mentioned in your earlier reply to me.  It's clear that you and I disagree because we value different things and approach/play this game in very different ways, which is absolutely fine.

 

I'm going to maintain my opinion on your idea.  There's no need for you to convince me otherwise.  XD

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The drop rates are better than what they used to be, but still can be improved.  Tons of players have in fact  burned out and left in the past couple of years due to drop rate problems, and the game you're playing today is a result of us leaving feedback and our opinions.

 

Well my reply has nothing to do with the g-pull nerf, draco or mesa which you mentioned in your earlier reply to me.  It's clear that you and I disagree because we value different things and approach/play this game in very different ways, which is absolutely fine.

 

I'm going to maintain my opinion on your idea.  There's no need for you to convince me otherwise.  XD

I am just going to keep offering counter points to your counter points.  I know you are too stubborn to come over to my way of thinking, but I am more trying to convince the fence sitters and DE anyway.  Plus, offering a counter reply is a free bump for the thread.

[BrazilianJoe]

OP, That's actually a good idea.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

OP, That's actually a good idea.

thanks, but I am sure others have had the idea before

[ASH_PRIME]

COOL Idea!  +1

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

Great idea. As Warframe currently stands I have no desire to go from mr18 to 19 and I get burnt out just by looking at the new weapons and thinking about polarizing them. Go get yourself a cookie.

[motorfirebox]

Ooooh, that's slick.