Exalted Blade Makes Excalibur A Living Fluctus And Deafeats The Ability Purpose

[GuyOnCrack]

1) You can rush to those enemies head on and deflect their bullets and energy slash away. With Saryn you have to get some cover than find the ideal position to do so.

2) My blind lasts 2-4 seconds with max fleeting and R6 Transient with no +duration mods. I've been testing him for T4S lately and he's far more than capable of surviving with EB alone, especially with Life Strike.

4) True Saryn can get more kills but she has to properly activate them, her kills could be a 15/20 enemies in a room to a meager 5/20 in the room and that's 25 energy with max eff. Unlike Excal with max eff he has more than enough time to slash 20/20 enemies with the same amount of energy so Excal does do it slightly slower but he also does it much more efficiently.

1. Saryn doesn't need line of sight. Stand behind cover, spam Miasma.

2. Yeah RB can last for 2-4 seconds with low duration builds. But what about finishers or the stealth damage later on. RB is just a much a offensive as much as it is a defensive skill.

4. So promoting an active skill where the player can go around the room and slash at enemies is a bad thing or did I miss the memo? Or maybe you need RB to actually kill the enemies at a decent speed later on which cuts into the energy pool by a good chunk.

[izzatuw]

1. Saryn doesn't need line of sight. Stand behind cover, spam Miasma.

2. Yeah RB can last for 2-4 seconds with low duration builds. But what about finishers or the stealth damage later on. RB is just a much a offensive as much as it is a defensive skill.

4. So promoting an active skill where the player can go around the room and slash at enemies is a bad thing or did I miss the memo? Or maybe you need RB to actually kill the enemies at a decent speed later on which cuts into the energy pool by a good chunk.

1. EB (Exalted Blade) doesn't require LOS either. I've been cutting people through walls and closed doors just fine.

4. I recently did another run with Exalted Blade 20 min T4S and even when I was spamming Slash Dash and Radial Blind with it my energy pool never went below 75 and EB was constantly running. When did I say it was a bad thing?

[TaylorsContraction]

Why are you balancing things even above level 100 in the first place? When you're ignoring the majority of the game which is faar below that point.

Because we spend the majority of our time fighting high level enemies. Even if I go to star chart missions they are typically endless ones unless I'm running an alert. As players get stronger and stronger we fight stronger and stronger enemies. No one case about the star chart levels because no one spends much time there. The start chart is balanced as is for new player progression. It's not where high level players soend a majority of the time. I dare say the majority spends it in the void because all prime frames drop there. I'm including odd with the "void".

[Cipherid]

The issue I have isn't so much the ridiculous punchthrough or the thousands of damage each wave can produce, but the fact that his other powers are barely used anymore. No one ever seems to use Radial Javelin or Slash Dash, Blind either gets used to increase EB damage or as a panic/revival button and EB is on almost constantly. His ulti is so good that his other powers are just left on the side.

[Windy_Wind]

punch through of 2.1 meters, problem solved 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Windy_Wind

[RealPandemonium]

punch through of 5 meters, problem solved 

How about the whole issue of getting 90k damage per hit on level 30 heavy Grineer with pretty much no downside?

[S7ORM]

CC frames are grossly underpowered when it comes to lower level and overpowered when it comes to late game. No one complains because they don't do damage so the team has reasonable time to kill the enemies even though the skill is being spammed. But not everyone plays with a team. I personally play solo and most of the community does too. And Excalibur works on a team, AS THE DPS. If you want to talk about team synergy, maybe there is a need for a DPS character?

Also have you actually played Excalibur extensively? Have you? No lying now. Because I know if you have played Excalibur a lot, you would have a lot of moments where you would aim a wave only for the enemy to move to another position. And with the travel time on the waves, you would have to adjust to the new position a few seconds after the first wave past the enemy.

CC frames are not underpowered at lower levels. They are exactly as useful. Yes, they don't have abilities that kill enemies, but they still kill enemies (using guns) and provide exactly as much support as they are supposed to. It's because Power Strength and pure damage abilities don't scale (either up or down -- and they should do BOTH), that they are able to wipe maps faster than CC frames. That doesn't mean that CC frames are underpowered; it means that straight damage abilities are overpowered at low levels, and we know they are underpowered at high levels (with the exception now, of Excalibur).

Bigger numbers is not a solution. All it does is move the point where "Too Strong" goes to "Too Weak" slightly higher. It's still the same issue.

 

I've played him enough -- both before and after the rework to know that the new ability is fun as hell to play, but also incredibly powerful. Yes, you may miss one wave in a large open area. Try a hallway though. Or aim ahead of where your enemy is going. I use almost exclusively non-hitscan weapons so I'm familiar with that tactic.

 

Because we spend the majority of our time fighting high level enemies. Even if I go to star chart missions they are typically endless ones unless I'm running an alert. As players get stronger and stronger we fight stronger and stronger enemies. No one case about the star chart levels because no one spends much time there. The start chart is balanced as is for new player progression. It's not where high level players soend a majority of the time. I dare say the majority spends it in the void because all prime frames drop there. I'm including odd with the "void".

The Void missions are, as you say, supposed to be higher level content. That means they're supposed to be more difficult. Taking the balance point for damaging abilities into Endless T4 completely defeats that purpose. If your balance point is T4 enemies, then what is supposed to be difficult content becomes trivial, and anything BELOW that becomes unbearable to play.

Edited July 14, 2015 by S7ORM

[RealZeroIce]

How about the whole issue of getting 90k damage per hit on level 30 heavy Grineer with pretty much no downside?

How is a that an issue? I do 2 - 3 times more than that with my Dread and anything behind that dies aswel no matter what it is, yes the bow does not have the wave but the arrows are a lot of a hell faster than the waves, better precision, mobility plus it can take out heavies, bombards and ancients faster ...... but not everyone is good with a bow and I can think of a few other weapons that can take them out faster than the EB wave. I am however talking about lvl60+ enemies......... to me personally level 30 enemies is just fodder. 

[GuyOnCrack]

CC frames are not underpowered at lower levels. They are exactly as useful. Yes, they don't have abilities that kill enemies, but they still kill enemies (using guns) and provide exactly as much support as they are supposed to. It's because Power Strength and pure damage abilities don't scale (either up or down -- and they should do BOTH), that they are able to wipe maps faster than CC frames. That doesn't mean that CC frames are underpowered; it means that straight damage abilities are overpowered at low levels, and we know they are underpowered at high levels (with the exception now, of Excalibur).

Bigger numbers is not a solution. All it does is move the point where "Too Strong" goes to "Too Weak" slightly higher. It's still the same issue.

 

I've played him enough -- both before and after the rework to know that the new ability is fun as hell to play, but also incredibly powerful. Yes, you may miss one wave in a large open area. Try a hallway though. Or aim ahead of where your enemy is going. I use almost exclusively non-hitscan weapons so I'm familiar with that tactic.

 

The Void missions are, as you say, supposed to be higher level content. That means they're supposed to be more difficult. Taking the balance point for damaging abilities into Endless T4 completely defeats that purpose. If your balance point is T4 enemies, then what is supposed to be difficult content becomes trivial, and anything BELOW that becomes unbearable to play.

Have you heard of the concept of specialization? This is used in many games where you have a isometrically based team. One character may be really good at healing but suck at damage dealing or one maybe be great at crowd control but suck at team support.

Warframe is a isometrically team based game but there is one problem. The healers and crowd controllers can equal the dps of damage dealers. Any frame can use a Soma P or a Boltor P, so why use an Excalibur when I can use a Trinity which who can survive better and bring more to the table than Excalibur? They will do the same amount of damage because of their primary weapon. That was the issue of the past Excalibur and the issue of damage dealers. At some point, it's a waste of energy to use damage abilities because your weapon will out preform the ability, so why bother with damage abilities when you can have utility ability. People get butt hurt when damage dealers ACTUALLY DO DAMAGE. We come to a point where the damage dealer can actually do damage with their ability and be an alternative to high damage dealing weapons, even though you still need to get up close to do damage later on.

His only CC is Radial Blind but that used more as a damage enhancer than a effective cc, now. Maybe before when his Blind went through walls, you could call the nerf bomb, but now the blind isn't as reliable as other cc.

Also, if we did scale everything to the star chart, shouldn't we start with weapons to make the void harder? Nerf the F*** out of the primaries, secondaries, and melee to fit the star chart. We have to make it so that it takes a whole clip to kill a mob spawn in the void. Because more health and damage equals harder and not more annoying. RIGHT?

[Bizzaro21]

If the game is too easy then it just becomes pointless power fantasy masturbation.  I would prefer this game to be fun and engaging.

it is challenging, you jut should get out of planets and do void or OD, thanks to cal`s rework I can do 60 mins solo in t4/3, b4 i barely made it to 40 with any other frame even valkyr, she`s tough and can`t kill a fly, a real tank, cal`s role is utility/killer/CC

[RealPandemonium]

People need to stop pretending there are roles in this game.  Everyone is a DPS, and everyone has cheese to exploit.  This game doesn't have roles; it has flavors.  People forget this because all they care about is power-grinding, ignoring actual gameplay.  

[Bizzaro21]

People need to stop pretending there are roles in this game.  Everyone is a DPS, and everyone has cheese to exploit.  This game doesn't have roles; it has flavors.  People forget this because all they care about is power-grinding, ignoring actual gameplay.  

there are roles, u can`t count trin as killer can you?? also everyone is free to play however they like, power grind or not, not ur business or decision

Edited July 14, 2015 by Bizzaro21

[Ronyn]

Have you heard of the concept of specialization? This is used in many games where you have a isometrically based team. One character may be really good at healing but suck at damage dealing or one maybe be great at crowd control but suck at team support.

Warframe is a isometrically team based game but there is one problem. The healers and crowd controllers can equal the dps of damage dealers. Any frame can use a Soma P or a Boltor P, so why use an Excalibur when I can use a Trinity which who can survive better and bring more to the table than Excalibur? They will do the same amount of damage because of their primary weapon. That was the issue of the past Excalibur and the issue of damage dealers. At some point, it's a waste of energy to use damage abilities because your weapon will out preform the ability, so why bother with damage abilities when you can have utility ability. 

You're right that there are some serious issues with damage powers falling off in later levels.

Direct damage abilities do need to be tuned so they remain REAL damage options all the way to end game.

Right now many aren't and that is a problem.

And it is also true that all frames can use all weapons giving everyone access to solid damage output.

However, one needs to keep in mind that the weapons do not always equalize the damage output of frames because some frames can amplify the damage of weapons. Roar, Vex armor, Hall of Mirrors, Sonar, Molecular prime..all increase the damage output or the damage taken.

So a soma prime in the hands of a frame who can increase weapon damage will greatly out damage an identical soma prime in the hands of a frame who cannot increase weapon damage output.

This means that in many cases certain frames are clearly better choices for damage output than others.

 

 

People need to stop pretending there are roles in this game.  Everyone is a DPS, and everyone has cheese to exploit.  This game doesn't have roles; it has flavors.  People forget this because all they care about is power-grinding, ignoring actual gameplay.  

I disagree. Even if everyone is effectively a "dps" that doesn't mean there aren't various other roles that they fullfill alongside that. Its the DPS AND (CC or Support or Heal or etc..) style of class design. It's the AND that truly separates the frames in many cases. Folks need to see beyond "dps" being the central factor for what defines a role.

 

 

The Void missions are, as you say, supposed to be higher level content. That means they're supposed to be more difficult. Taking the balance point for damaging abilities into Endless T4 completely defeats that purpose. If your balance point is T4 enemies, then what is supposed to be difficult content becomes trivial, and anything BELOW that becomes unbearable to play.

It's not to say that Warframes scaling isn't off kilter...it certainly needs work..but lets keep our perspective here.

We are talking about a game with vertical progression. In games with vertical progression balance is done at stages.

Things are supposed to be balance for when the player is fighting at their appropriate level.

A level 1 player is supposed to be balanced against level 1 enemies.

A level 10 player is supposed to be balanced against level 10 enemies.

A level 20 player is supposed to be balanced against level 20 enemies.

A level 30 player is supposed to be balanced against level 30 enemies.

A level 30 (min/maxed/)player is supposed to be balanced against end game/high level enemies.

Note: The forma'd/potatoed/min/maxed/best mods set up is warframes equivalent of other games "raid gear"sets, Which make a character FAR more powerful despite still having the same level number next to their name.

 

Point is-A character properly set up for end game is obviously going to trivialize early game content.

Just as a character properly set up for early game is obviously going to get spanked in end game content. 

Things are supposed to be balance for when the player is fighting at their appropriate level.

Granted we need a way to keep all tilesets relevant but that answer lies in other things...and that is its own conversation.

 

TLDR: Worrying about a raid level Excalibur (or any frame) being too strong for early to mid game content just doesn't make sense.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[S7ORM]

Have you heard of the concept of specialization? This is used in many games where you have a isometrically based team. One character may be really good at healing but suck at damage dealing or one maybe be great at crowd control but suck at team support.

Warframe is a isometrically team based game but there is one problem. The healers and crowd controllers can equal the dps of damage dealers. Any frame can use a Soma P or a Boltor P, so why use an Excalibur when I can use a Trinity which who can survive better and bring more to the table than Excalibur? They will do the same amount of damage because of their primary weapon. That was the issue of the past Excalibur and the issue of damage dealers. 

That's why I also have this:

 

Damage mods should not add extra damage -- that means that the better weapon builds are the ones that pump full of DPS.

What they SHOULD do, is modify the percentage of a weapons damage to different types -- for example:

-Serration no longer exists.

Assume a weapon that does Weapon does 300 damage split evenly between puncture, impact and slash.

So, a base 100% damage split into the three base damage types: puncture, impact, slash. (Or two damage types, or one. It doesn't really matter. Depends on the weapon, but for this example its all 3).

Spoilers are good for grouping.

Any mod placed in first slot draws its % from that 100%, and the remaining % is divided back to the original damage types in the same fractions as they originally were. So Piercing Hit would take 10% puncture claimed forever. The remaining 90% is divided evenly between the original 3 types:

 

Then the next mod that is placed in that would change the damage, draws its % from the remaining 90%. So Piercing Caliber would take 30% of the 90% remainig -- that means 27% total damage. Now, 27+10% of the damage is Puncture (from the mods). The remaining 63% is divided evenly through the original 3 base types (that includes puncture, impact and slash. This puncture is from the original weapon, not from the mods).

 

Now, Hellfire takes its 30% from the remaining 63%, meaning 18.9% as fire damage. Now 37+18.9% is taken by the mods, and the remaining 44.1% is split between the 3 base damage types.

 

Now, High Voltage is added on, after Hellfire. It takes 30% from the remaining 44.1%, meaning 13.23% is electric damage -- BUT, electric and heat combine so a total of 13.23+18.9% is Radiation damage, 37% is puncture. The remaining 30.87% is split between the original 3. It also adds status %.

So, in total, 13.23+18.9=32.13% is radiation damage, 37+(30.87/3)=47.29% is puncture damage, 10.29% is impact damage, 10.29% is slash damage.

That way, the order of the mods matters, forcing players to actually think what types of damage they want the most effect from. If you place Piercing Caliber at the front (taking 30% of the 100%) then Hellfire (taking 30% of the 70%) then High Voltage (taking 30% of the 49%) THEN Piercing Hit (taking 10% of the remaining 34.3),

then you get less overall puncture from the mods, and more radiation.

And it's easier for [DE] to balance weapons -- based on the base damage and the initial starting damage types. However, it's also easy to change the major part of the damage of a weapon -- so a mainly puncture weapon can become mainly impact. This lets players use virtually any weapon they want for any level -- say they like bows, but only have the Paris? They can still use it against Corpus. It will always have a trace of its original damage split (the nature of taking percentages of remaining), but the vast majority of the damage is whatever you want it to be.

 

It also removes mandatory mods (pure damage increase) in favour of specializing damage types against the enemy you will be facing.

With this set, you can easily create a wider spread of weapons per tier for balancing purposes, and also to give structure in case you wanted to add more Mastery locking to weapons -- you can easily tell what weapons will do more damage based on a simple base damage*fire rate*clip size calculation. All weapons in that grouping of similar values will have different base % of damage types inherent to the weapons, so a fast firing, low damage-per-shot puncture weapon will still be the same tier as a slow firing, high damage, base electric type weapon.

Yes, they're likely to be used against different enemies, but the DPS would be to more or less even for that tier.

 

That way, we can see what sorts of weapons should be locked out for players on Mercury, etc. And we can lock them easily behind low level Mastery Rank barriers (0,1,2,3,4,5) to give a sense of progression into more powerful weaponry. At each tier level, however, there will be a wide variety of different weapon types -- varying quite a bit because of fire rates, damage per shot, clip size, projectile speed, base damage type spread, base elemental damages, etc. 

So it's not like there's going to be one weapon that is just way better than others (*CoughSomaPrimeSlashPreNerfSynoidGammacorCough*), because DE could balance the DPS to the tier easily (because there will actually BE a structure or guideline on balanced DPS).

inb4 "No mastery locking." You can literally pull through Mastery Rank 3 within your first day of playing. I would know, I did it.

 

Obviously, it would be an extensive overhaul to how damage mods work, and there would have to be a lot of tweaking of numbers, but I think it would be the most effective solution (the mastery locking thing can be ignored if we want to. Just a suggestion).

With this happening, we can tone down the enemy scaling as well. Significantly.

That's just for weapons. Powers will also need looking at after that, because if we weaken weapons and enemies as they are now, powers will be far more OP. For a simple balance before they get reworked, you could just tone down the damage numbers on some of those abilities (when the enemy scaling is reduced).

Now, Multishot. I like the idea of multishot -- having a  % chance to fire extra bullets at no cost. However, having a high chance (90%+ as we do now) essentially makes it a "Damage x2" mod. What we need to see, is what we can already see in Archwing.

Multishot mods need a significantly lower % to happen, like the 30% in archwing. That way, you can either mod for the low chance that you'll get a second bullet, or fill that spot with another consistently useful mod -- like reload speed.

I think after all of this, we'd be seeing a lot more variation in modding with weapons, and more usage from some currently under appreciated mods like reload speed and magazine sizes, and possibly Primed Chamber (or its little cousin Charged Chamber) and the status duration mods (well... maybe not those ones).

Thoughts?

As a running comment on any thread that I think it is appropriate for. Your argument in this quote is more an argument for the need of balance on weapons, rather than an argument for not needing to balance Excalibur.

Balance Weapons and Enemy scaling, and balance frames. All have to be balance around a single idea. Currently, there is no idea there -- no target for balance. This needs to change before we can see any reasonable development on the usefulness of pure-damage abilities and frames.

[GuyOnCrack]

The issue here is that people want to nerf Excalibur because he quote, "makes the game too easy" then they pull out some arbitrary number. Like 40 minutes in T4 is super easy with Excalibur because wave spam, when in actuality, they have to get up close and use radial blind to properly deal with enemies. Yes, you can get to 60 minutes in a T4. I can also do that with my Loki with infinite invisibility and my decked out Soma Prime and it would be easier than doing it with Excalibur.

 

People make it out like Exalted Blade absolutely does stuff that other weapons can't do. Like you guys make it sound like these waves auto target enemies and deal 100k damage and has a 100% status chance. It doesn't.

 

I can just as easily kill enemies I haven't seen yet by shooting my Dread or Quanta with shred into a door. I can just spam the left mouse button to kill those guys. Maybe this game is spam left mouse button to win. We should nerf all the weapons to make the game harder. Why have effective weapons? Those make the game too easy plus you can spam left mouse button. And the ammo efficient on some weapons like the Quanta or the Opticor, too good they need to be nerfed, plus they have like so much damage and you can collect ammo off the ground??!?!?!?!? Like what was DE thinking. Like because of the ammo pick ups, weapons like the Soma Prime and Boltor Prime are able to just replenish ammo. And you can have more ammo capacity and ammo regen. Like this is too strong. We need more bullet sponge enemies at level 30 because that's what most players deal with, so we have to nerf all the weapons to fit that group of players and make 40 to 50 so hard that it's super annoying. But let's not call it annoying, let's call it strategic thinking. Yeah then in T4 let's make an enemy that has a hit scan weapon that insta kills, fires faster than the heavy gunners, and it's has a 99% damage reduction buff to itself and allies. Also make it spawn the most often. That's difficult right? I mean it's hard to play against something like that so it must mean that it's difficult and challenging?

 

Do you sense my sarcasm? Why are you guys mad that there is an alternative to primary weapons? An alternative that isn't as great. Excalibur is a great place to start making the damage frames live up to. He only has one cc move that is unreliable, not that spammable, and is more useful for damage. But he has damage that can keep up because of his kit increasing his power.

 

Final note, if Excalibur was truly op, why don't you use him in every mission. I mean his Exalted Blade can easily defend the cryo pod like Frost's Snowglobe. Or easily kill enemies all around him, like Mesa. Or have mass CC and Like Nyx or Loki. IF he was truly OP, then most people wouldn't bother playing other frames, he would be viable in every mission type. 

[S7ORM]

It's not to say that Warframes scaling isn't off kilter...it certainly needs work..but lets keep our perspective here.

We are talking about a game with vertical progression. In games with vertical progression balance is done at stages.

Things are supposed to be balance for when the player is fighting at their appropriate level.

A level 1 player is supposed to be balanced against level 1 enemies.

A level 10 player is supposed to be balanced against level 10 enemies.

A level 20 player is supposed to be balanced against level 20 enemies.

A level 30 player is supposed to be balanced against level 30 enemies.

A level 30 (min/maxed/)player is supposed to be balanced against end game/high level enemies.

Note: The forma'd/potatoed/min/maxed/best mods set up is warframes equivalent of other games "raid gear"sets, Which make a character FAR more powerful despite still having the same level number next to their name.

 

Point is-A character properly set up for end game is obviously going to trivialize early game content.

Just as a character properly set up for early game is obviously going to get spanked in end game content. 

Things are supposed to be balance for when the player is fighting at their appropriate level.

Granted we need a way to keep all tilesets relevant but that answer lies in other things...and that is its own conversation.

 

TLDR: Worrying about a raid level Excalibur (or any frame) being too strong for early to mid game content just doesn't mask sense.

I'm not trying to have Level 30 warframes balanced to level 10 enemies. I'm just saying that scaling works both directions, so the skills won't be as powerful against level 10 enemies as they will against level 80 enemies. Maybe it does 1k against level 10 enemies (enough to kill them, I believe), but scales up to doing 6k against level 80 enemies (I'm too lazy to actually look up numbers). Scaling doesn't mean just make the skill equally effective against all enemies (so, not doing % of health as damage -- though some skills could utilize this for variety). There has to be some drop off (6k against a level 80 enemy is still a lot, but not enough to kill them. And against a level 100 enemies, maybe 8k damage, which is less % of max health, but still more damage than before) or there is no apparent change in difficulty.

[Ronyn]

I'm not trying to have Level 30 warframes balanced to level 10 enemies. I'm just saying that scaling works both directions, so the skills won't be as powerful against level 10 enemies as they will against level 80 enemies. Maybe it does 1k against level 10 enemies (enough to kill them, I believe), but scales up to doing 6k against level 80 enemies (I'm too lazy to actually look up numbers). Scaling doesn't mean just make the skill equally effective against all enemies (so, not doing % of health as damage -- though some skills could utilize this for variety). There has to be some drop off (6k against a level 80 enemy is still a lot, but not enough to kill them. And against a level 100 enemies, maybe 8k damage, which is less % of max health, but still more damage than before) or there is no apparent change in difficulty.

I don't know....

Only a very small amount of the difficulty should come from any drop off in power effectiveness. Otherwise specific roles tend to fall apart and that ruins diversity.

Difficulty should increase through other means that pushes the players to be smarter and more efficient in their roles.

Like ai that does their better attacks more frequently, more percentage of the special enemy units among waves, less breathing time between onsloughts, etc.

[motorfirebox]

I want this so much. Every damn attack creating a wave defeats the purpose of a melee frame. It also removes any skill needed to use the ability.

 

Different combos could create different waves. Some could do multiple smaller waves, some could do one wide high damage wave etc.

I can see default waves being much shorter-range, with combo waves being longer, but removing the default waves completely would just make Excal a (much, much) weaker Valkyr.

[Rakosta_Kai]

The issue here is that people want to nerf Excalibur because he quote, "makes the game too easy" then they pull out some arbitrary number. Like 40 minutes in T4 is super easy with Excalibur because wave spam, when in actuality, they have to get up close and use radial blind to properly deal with enemies. Yes, you can get to 60 minutes in a T4. I can also do that with my Loki with infinite invisibility and my decked out Soma Prime and it would be easier than doing it with Excalibur.

 

People make it out like Exalted Blade absolutely does stuff that other weapons can't do. Like you guys make it sound like these waves auto target enemies and deal 100k damage and has a 100% status chance. It doesn't.

 

I can just as easily kill enemies I haven't seen yet by shooting my Dread or Quanta with shred into a door. I can just spam the left mouse button to kill those guys. Maybe this game is spam left mouse button to win. We should nerf all the weapons to make the game harder. Why have effective weapons? Those make the game too easy plus you can spam left mouse button. And the ammo efficient on some weapons like the Quanta or the Opticor, too good they need to be nerfed, plus they have like so much damage and you can collect ammo off the ground??!?!?!?!? Like what was DE thinking. Like because of the ammo pick ups, weapons like the Soma Prime and Boltor Prime are able to just replenish ammo. And you can have more ammo capacity and ammo regen. Like this is too strong. We need more bullet sponge enemies at level 30 because that's what most players deal with, so we have to nerf all the weapons to fit that group of players and make 40 to 50 so hard that it's super annoying. But let's not call it annoying, let's call it strategic thinking. Yeah then in T4 let's make an enemy that has a hit scan weapon that insta kills, fires faster than the heavy gunners, and it's has a 99% damage reduction buff to itself and allies. Also make it spawn the most often. That's difficult right? I mean it's hard to play against something like that so it must mean that it's difficult and challenging?

 

Do you sense my sarcasm? Why are you guys mad that there is an alternative to primary weapons? An alternative that isn't as great. Excalibur is a great place to start making the damage frames live up to. He only has one cc move that is unreliable, not that spammable, and is more useful for damage. But he has damage that can keep up because of his kit increasing his power.

 

Final note, if Excalibur was truly op, why don't you use him in every mission. I mean his Exalted Blade can easily defend the cryo pod like Frost's Snowglobe. Or easily kill enemies all around him, like Mesa. Or have mass CC and Like Nyx or Loki. IF he was truly OP, then most people wouldn't bother playing other frames, he would be viable in every mission type. 

 

Basically, what you are seeing a lot of in this thread and others is a backwards complaint.

 

DE made Excal dynamic and multi-functional and their favorite frames aren't designed this way... Enter the complaints.

It's why half the forum comments are complaining about needing a re-work for other frames and the other half are complaints about the need for a nerf/tweak/tuning on Excalibur.

 

I'd rather DE simply arrive at their own conclusions and choose to be moderate about how they handle any potential issues because both groups are half right.

 

Players aren't trustworthy to make relevant decisions on balance changes or it's direction because players aren't objective.

An excellent example is the Synoid Gammacor...  DE gave players exactly what they argued for and ruined the weapon's sustainability (which it needed for the proc). Now it has similar DPS and low sustainability when it really should have been balanced in the other direction.

We know this because the other half of its' function is the proc and the weapon needs to be equipped to build affinity for it. Sustainability should have been of equal importance to DPS and it wasn't to players.

 

Exalted Blade is another Synoid Gammacor issue... What players want to see will ruin the skill in the long run because players aren't being objective or considerate.

[GuyOnCrack]

Basically, what you are seeing a lot of in this thread and others is a backwards complaint.

 

DE made Excal dynamic and multi-functional and their favorite frames aren't designed this way... Enter the complaints.

It's why half the forum comments are complaining about needing a re-work for other frames and the other half are complaints about the need for a nerf/tweak/tuning on Excalibur.

 

I'd rather DE simply arrive at their own conclusions and choose to be moderate about how they handle any potential issues because both groups are half right.

 

Players aren't trustworthy to make relevant decisions on balance changes or it's direction because players aren't objective.

An excellent example is the Synoid Gammacor...  DE gave players exactly what they argued for and ruined the weapon's sustainability (which it needed for the proc). Now it has similar DPS and low sustainability when it really should have been balanced in the other direction.

We know this because the other half of its' function is the proc and the weapon needs to be equipped to build affinity for it. Sustainability should have been of equal importance to DPS and it wasn't to players.

 

Exalted Blade is another Synoid Gammacor issue... What players want to see will ruin the skill in the long run because players aren't being objective or considerate.

I get this. The problem with players is that they ask for a nerf without seeing the whole picture. They ask for a straight nerf without any buffs in other areas to compensate. The biggest example is shotguns. With a damage drop off and no increased damage up close, shotguns have been terrible other than the Hek which is only saved by the augment. True OPiness is where the gun or frame is so grossly over powered, that there is no need to use something else. There is none of that in Warframe, but people still cry out and call OP on what ever they want to complain about.

[TheBrsrkr]

I tried to stay away, I really did......

Nah.

@Guyoncrack

If the Soma prime had that amount of travel time AND infinite punch through AND 200 shots in a clip AND 800 in reserve, yes, it would be ridiculously OP. I still don't see your point.

Even using your examples, this is ridiculous. Dread will kill at most 5 people behind the door, if it hits anything at all. The Quanta has no goddamn ads and the beam procs once per second. Both of these things can also only kill things AT THE DOOR. Not through the walls. Not through the floor. Not behind giant blocks of cover. Exalted Blade provides all the benefits of the guns, with poor limitations.

Tell me why a sword based frame is not using his sword. No, really. I'd love to hear the reason you think 40m of infinite punch through on a wave that can be spammed that can do 50k (I don't care about your build) DPS is balanced on a melee-centric frame.

As I said before, MULTIPLE TIMES, guns have their own checks and balances. From your own example, Dread could kill at most 3people behind that door.

I don't use Excalibur on every mission because I like other frames better. Deal with it. You've simply run out of stupid arguments to make, and are spewing nonsense and blowing everything out of proportion to keep your post count running up.

[Slaviar]

I tried to stay away, I really did......

Nah.

@Guyoncrack

If the Soma prime had that amount of travel time AND infinite punch through AND 200 shots in a clip AND 800 in reserve, yes, it would be ridiculously OP. I still don't see your point.

Even using your examples, this is ridiculous. Dread will kill at most 5 people behind the door, if it hits anything at all. The Quanta has no goddamn ads and the beam procs once per second. Both of these things can also only kill things AT THE DOOR. Not through the walls. Not through the floor. Not behind giant blocks of cover. Exalted Blade provides all the benefits of the guns, with poor limitations.

Tell me why a sword based frame is not using his sword. No, really. I'd love to hear the reason you think 40m of infinite punch through on a wave that can be spammed that can do 50k (I don't care about your build) DPS is balanced on a melee-centric frame.

As I said before, MULTIPLE TIMES, guns have their own checks and balances. From your own example, Dread could kill at most 3people behind that door.

I don't use Excalibur on every mission because I like other frames better. Deal with it. You've simply run out of stupid arguments to make, and are spewing nonsense and blowing everything out of proportion to keep your post count running up.

Ever seen Hysteria? Take away energy waves and you have Hysteria without invulnerabilty. And Hysteria is very weak ability.

 

And if you say someone "runs out of stupid arguments" it means one thing- you're the one who ran out of arguments. And you try to make up for it by attacking people.

[TheBrsrkr]

Everr seen Hysteria? Take away energy waves and you have Hysteria without invulnerabilty. And Hysteria is very weak ability.

And if you say someone "runs out of stupid arguments" it means one thing- you're the one who ran out of arguments. And you try to make up for it by attacking people.

Literally no one said to take out the waves from EB. No one.

Well, tell me how "either don't nerf EB or nerf everything" or "Saryn is more OP than Excal" are rational arguments.

[Slaviar]

Literally no one said to take out the waves from EB. No one.

Well, tell me how "either don't nerf EB or nerf everything" or "Saryn is more OP than Excal" are rational arguments.

These are both very rational arguments. Saryn is more op than Excal and problem lies much deeper than single frame's ability to instagib.

[TheBrsrkr]

These are both very rational arguments. Saryn is more op than Excal and problem lies much deeper than single frame's ability to instagib.

We've been over this before. Several times. Miasma being OP does not make EB less OP. ALL frames and ALL abilities should be changed on their OWN merits and shortcomings. Not because X has more range than Y, because X has crappy range. Not because Y does so much more damage than X, but because X does too little damage. Saying it's not OP because it's not the MOST OP is a stupid argument.