Excal Is Perfectly Fine

[nmuaddib]

Yes.

Spams energy waves, and when those don't 1-shot, they blind and throw more waves.

 

What is wrong with "they blind and throw more waves" if the guy does not go down?? What do you do with your weapon if you shoot and don't kill? You shoot more bullets, right? Maybe you throw a Molecular Prime before the next burst to ensure a kill, right? That is called playing Warframe,,, emphasis on the word PLAYING, not spamming...

 

As an Excal player that you are, you are aware that Radial Blind for example, cannot be spammed, it has a 5 second delay, that can only be dealt with natural talent, and nobody bothers with it. You have to know when to blind, otherwise you are screwed... That is playing in my book, you also admitted that not every thing goes down with one wave, even if you have 3 things stacking damage over EB (the aura, the melee mods, and the frame mods...)

[Kappa64]

What is wrong with "they blind and throw more waves" if the guy does not go down?? What do you do with your weapon if you shoot and don't kill? You shoot more bullets, right? Maybe you throw a Molecular Prime before the next burst to ensure a kill, right? That is called playing Warframe,,, emphasis on the word PLAYING, not spamming...

 

As an Excal player that you are, you are aware that Radial Blind for example, cannot be spammed, it has a 5 second delay, that can only be dealt with natural talent, and nobody bothers with it. You have to know when to blind, otherwise you are screwed... That is playing in my book, you also admitted that not every thing goes down with one wave, even if you have 3 things stacking damage over EB (the aura, the melee mods, and the frame mods...)

When enemies are at level 80, then yes, of course they don't die in 1 hit. 

And yes, Radial Blind has a 5 second delay.

But does that really mean that an energy wave should do tons of damage when an enemy is blinded, AND have more punch-through than any weapon could ever possibly achieve?

You can't just ignore the fact that that's broken as hell.

[nmuaddib]

When enemies are at level 80, then yes, of course they don't die in 1 hit. 

And yes, Radial Blind has a 5 second delay.

But does that really mean that an energy wave should do tons of damage when an enemy is blinded, AND have more punch-through than any weapon could ever possibly achieve?

You can't just ignore the fact that that's broken as hell.

 

Finisher damage is what it is (Blinded + Melee, knocked down + Melee, all the same) you can achieve that in other ways within the game. If you have an enemy incapable of defending himself for any reason, he should go down faster, even one-shot, it simply makes sense.

 

About the wave punch through, you keep mentioning it as if it was a hitscan punch through, which could not be further away from the truth.

- First, it dissipates with a few enemies (otherwise one horizontal wave would be enough to kill dozens of enemies, and we know it is not the case, as you accuse us of spamming, even with the "monstrous" damage...).

- Second, the wave speed (I don't know how many times I have to repeat this) makes is an unreliable projectile, so yeah, I killed some guys behind doors, or cover, but most of the time, PT on that ability works just as an extension of any long or heavy melee weapon. If you swing a Scindo Prime around you, it goes through many enemies, and that is what they achieved with the EB wave, the difference is that it travels a straight line. It was a really well thought adaptation of concept, I will give DE that.

[Kappa64]

Finisher damage is what it is (Blinded + Melee, knocked down + Melee, all the same) you can achieve that in other ways within the game. If you have an enemy incapable of defending himself for any reason, he should go down faster, even one-shot, it simply makes sense.

 

About the wave punch through, you keep mentioning it as if it was a hitscan punch through, which could not be further away from the truth.

- First, it dissipates with a few enemies (otherwise one horizontal wave would be enough to kill dozens of enemies, and we know it is not the case, as you accuse us of spamming, even with the "monstrous" damage...).

- Second, the wave speed (I don't know how many times I have to repeat this) makes is an unreliable projectile, so yeah, I killed some guys behind doors, or cover, but most of the time, PT on that ability works just as an extension of any long or heavy melee weapon. If you swing a Scindo Prime around you, it goes through many enemies, and that is what they achieved with the EB wave, the difference is that it travels a straight line. It was a really well thought adaptation of concept, I will give DE that.

I assume you remember awhile back when Excalibur's Blind just increased the damage done to the blinded enemies, much like the waves do now? Then it was changed to doing individual animations killing each and every enemy, because they realised it was broken before.

 

And now, we have the same problem, except with waves instead of Glaives or Orthos Primes' or some such.

Also the way you describe the waves makes it sound like you're trying to hit Neo with a shoe from 100 meters away.

The Waves are lightspeed, but they are by no means slow at all.

 

And yes, the punch through dissipates with a few enemies, but then next few waves just pass right on through because the first waves killed the first few enemies. 

 

My biggest problem with this is that I have seen more than enough Excal players in the past few weeks simply throwing waves at everything all willy nilly, killing everything in their path because they have 187% power strength and a Prisma Skana. 

 

Just because you play him skillfully does not mean that everyone else does, and just because you've seen a few Excals not do this does not mean it's not a problem.

[LordOfScrugging]

there is only 1 problem with EB, and that is that its waves can damage and destroy Nullifier shields, which defeats the purpose of said unit

 

some people will rage that this is being brought up, but obvious bugs need to be fixed

i think a problem with that is one thing. the Nullifier shield protects the user inside the bubble from being targeted. lets look at it this way. say mesa is targeting enemies with her peacemaker. the bubble causes a kind of blank space in her target that makes it so it seems like nothing is there so she can't target it. i think all powers that you can freely aim should be able to damage the shield, but not the people inside. so ash's shuriken, frosts 1(i actually forgot the name ._.), ember's fireball, EB's waves, etc. they should be able to damage the shield since you aren't targeting the unit inside like most of the warframe's powers do, but the shield. if that makes any sense

[nmuaddib]

I assume you remember awhile back when Excalibur's Blind just increased the damage done to the blinded enemies, much like the waves do now? Then it was changed to doing individual animations killing each and every enemy, because they realised it was broken before.

 

And now, we have the same problem, except with waves instead of Glaives or Orthos Primes' or some such.

Also the way you describe the waves makes it sound like you're trying to hit Neo with a shoe from 100 meters away.

The Waves are lightspeed, but they are by no means slow at all.

 

And yes, the punch through dissipates with a few enemies, but then next few waves just pass right on through because the first waves killed the first few enemies. 

 

My biggest problem with this is that I have seen more than enough Excal players in the past few weeks simply throwing waves at everything all willy nilly, killing everything in their path because they have 187% power strength and a Prisma Skana. 

 

Just because you play him skillfully does not mean that everyone else does, and just because you've seen a few Excals not do this does not mean it's not a problem.

 

John, first let me say that although we disagree, I really enjoyed the discussion so far, is is good to be able to keep things respectful, and to have a good and interesting conversation. I have been in threads, where things went south for a lot less than a couple of replies, for no reason other than 2 different points of view.

 

I do agree that If we only had spamming, poorly skilled Excal on the hundreds (to put in perspective, something in the line of the number of Mesa+Gmags requests we had just a few days ago) running around at every one of our games, we would have a serious problem. We don't even need a super OP mechanic involved, it would just be detrimental to the game, no matter the reasons.

 

But I really fail to see that. I have not witnessed such a high number of Excals playing, he is just viable again, and people do play him more, but not to an unhealthy extent. And the ones that I came across, did not present the kind of gameplay you describe, sincerely, no BS.

 

There are "bad" players with any frame, ability or weapon you can imagine, Excal is not going to be an exception. To give an example, I used to see some Gmags pulling so often in Draco, that without a nekros, Mesa did eventually ran out of energy. Why? If you didn't wait for a bit to bring the orbs to her, you ended up refilling her for just a few points of energy, wasting an orb. The point is, there may be a few irritating Excals out there, but they are not the majority, and are not the ones that are going to rob you from the fun, I think he is such a well thought frame right now (expect for the EB sound) that it is not likely he will damage our gameplay, that is my opinion.

Edited July 14, 2015 by nmuaddib

[Cryhunter059]

not playing it after update. reason is - despite awesome synergy between his powers, Excal become one-trick pony. You play it through one power only.

 

this is sad and shame really.

If you liked playing Excal pre-update, why would you stop? Unless you actually used super jump, which I sincerely doubt, there's been no major changes to the rest of his powers and I don't see anyone forcing you to use his new ult, so why wouldn't you continue playing him? Unless the entire reason you played him before is because nobody except hardcore Excal fans and new players who choose him as their first used him. 

[Kappa64]

John, first let me say that although we disagree, I really enjoyed the discussion so far, is is good to be able to keep things respectful, and to have a good and interesting conversation. I have been in threads, where things went south for a lot less than a couple of replies, for no reason other than 2 different points of view.

 

I do agree that If we only had spamming, poorly skilled Excal on the hundreds (to put in perspective, something in the line of the number of Mesa+Gmags requests we had just a few days ago) running around at every one of our games, we would have a serious problem. We don't even need a super OP mechanic involved, it would just be detrimental to the game, no matter the reasons.

 

But I really fail to see that. I have not witnessed such a high number of Excals playing, he is just viable again, and people do play him more, but not to an unhealthy extent. And the ones that I came across, did not present the kind of gameplay you describe, sincerely, no BS.

 

There are "bad" players with any frame, ability or weapon you can imagine, Excal is not going to be an exception. To give an example, I used to see some Gmags pulling so often in Draco, that without a nekros, Mesa did eventually ran out of energy. Why? If you didn't wait for a bit to bring the orbs to her, you ended up refilling her for just a few points of energy, wasting an orb. The point is, there may be a few irritating Excals out there, but they are not the majority, and are not the ones that are going to rob you from the fun, I think he is such a well thought frame right now (expect for the EB sound) that it is not likely he will damage our gameplay, that is my opinion.

You know, I think in the end, we can at least agree on one thing: People are actually playing Excalibur and not spamming 4.

Which is alright I guess. 

[weezedog]

HE's stupidly strong. Auto parrying with exalted blade is a hassle. He makes other frames feel lack luster cause of his abilities.

Got to fix that last sentence for you:

"Excalibur, who just got a complete rework by the devs, makes other frames (who haven't been reviewd by the devs in 2.5 years) feel lack luster cause of his abilities."

Well no duh, that's what a rework is supposed to do. Come back to me after other frames have had their rework and then we can have this discussion.

[Elkyx]

im just gonna say that my excal is only 21, and this is t3

#proexcalgameplay

[-Kryptyk-]

limbo-oberon-hydroid-volt-ember

 

._.

don't touch my ember.  I will burn you. 

[owendawgx]

I think my biggest problem with the Excal rework is that Exalted Blade is supposed to turn him into the ULTIMATE melee focused frame fitting of the title of a legendary blade, but instead it turns him into something that sits countless meters back and spams blade waves across the map. It doesn't fit his unique theme as a master of blades, it makes him more into a turret aimlessly swinging a pulsing sword around from afar. It doesn't feel right. 

[izzatuw]

Example?

EB gives you auto parry depending on the direction your facing deflecting all bullets even when you're activating Life Support

Not even exaggerating, you can use his ult from the beginning of a mission all the way to the end even if it's 50 minutes in a survival and you could still have 3/4th of your energy left. The energy drain for this ult is super slow. With max efficiency you can kill 10-20 enemies and only use 25 energy or less.

You can attack and deflect at the same time.

The stance scales with your modded melee weapon. Excal by far has the best damage dealing ult.

Nova's ult is a buffer/cc type ult whereas Excal focuses more on the damage.

[Slaviar]

.The stance scales with your modded melee weapon. Excal by far has the best damage dealing ult.

Nova's ult is a buffer/cc type ult whereas Excal focuses more on the damage.

Do you think it's bad? Now other frames should be reworked to match him.

[izzatuw]

Do you think it's bad? Now other frames should be reworked to match him.

Slightly, imo I think it's slightly unbalanced to continuously attack a heavy gunner in plain sight while deflecting all the bullets from the heavy gunner.

Maybe make it so that when Excal attacks he has a chance to block bullets instead of just blocking all the bullets bullets.

[AprilFools]

I would agree with a moderate increase to energy drain, and maybe remove the ability for the energy waves to go through thick walls.

 

Other than that, I think he's fine, and a nice alternative to meta frames.

[S7ORM]

OH boohoo, 4k damage per wave at 2 per second, that's 8kdps, there' are tons of weapons/abilities that deal way more dps than that and are way easier to use, why not call to nerf those too(soma, boltor, pretty much everything that is popular, ability wise there's mesa 4, saryn 4, hell, even frost 4 can deal higher dps in a crowded situation, and many many many more)? Seeing how according to you, 8k dps for 40 meters is clearly too much damage for a game where enemies have infinite scaling and even at around lvl 40-50~ enemies start to have tens of thousands of effective hp if not hundreds of thousands. Also you are not invincible, if an excal is spamming waves he can't really block, and 90% of the times a player is in danger of dying it is not from bullets but rather from things that excal cannot block, things that have an AOE, such as bombard rockets, naplams, or those annoying infested units. Also you only get radial damage blast if you have the syndicate mod equipped on your melee weapon, not everyone have that, even less will actually use it on their build. 

The ability blocks even while Excal is attacking. The only time it doesn't block is if he's hacking a console, reviving an ally, knocked down, or not using Exalted Blade. IT STILL BLOCKS WHILE YOU'RE ATTACKING.

But it's ok, because you can kill those Bombard, Napalms and infested units before they even enter the room. 40m punch through, remember? Just crouch by a doorway and spam EB waves through a wall.

>Even less will actually use it on their build.

Because players in this game are well known to not want an extra 100% damage on their weapons. Even so, the ability is a bit strong. 8k dps and bullet blocking for potentially infinite duration -- I've done entire T4S missions without leaving EB (starting from like the 5-6 minute mark, until 40).

Frankly, I'd just consider an increase in energy cost.

 

 

 there' are tons of weapons/abilities that deal way more dps than that and are way easier to use, why not call to nerf those too(soma, boltor, pretty much everything that is popular, ability wise there's mesa 4, saryn 4, hell, even frost 4 can deal higher dps in a crowded situation, and many many many more)?

Yes, they should also be toned down. The game is devoid of any semblance of balance, and any attempt to achieve such is met with this exact type of criticism. "Why should 'x' be nerfed when 'y' is more powerful?!" is not a valid argument, because the answer is simply "Because 'y' also needs to be toned down."

It's not just about DPS. Excal is for the most part invincible from the front while dealing this much damage, for durations up to infinity, as long as enemies keep spawning.

Edited July 14, 2015 by S7ORM

[GuyOnCrack]

The ability blocks even while Excal is attacking. The only time it doesn't block is if he's hacking a console, reviving an ally, knocked down, or not using Exalted Blade. IT STILL BLOCKS WHILE YOU'RE ATTACKING.

But it's ok, because you can kill those Bombard, Napalms and infested units before they even enter the room. 40m punch through, remember? Just crouch by a doorway and spam EB waves through a wall.

>Even less will actually use it on their build.

Because players in this game are well known to not want an extra 100% damage on their weapons. Even so, the ability is a bit strong. 8k dps and bullet blocking for potentially infinite duration -- I've done entire T4S missions without leaving EB (starting from like the 5-6 minute mark, until 40).

Frankly, I'd just consider an increase in energy cost.

Yes because the enemies all just come through one door way.......... or level 80+ enemies don't have crazy amounts of armor making Radial Blind essential to keeping up in the dps category.

Also blocking only affects the front. Not your back or sides. Try to wave spam 360 degrees and the blocking does jack S#&$ but when you focus on a target all damage is mitigated from the SIDE not from anywhere else.

Edited July 14, 2015 by GuyOnCrack

[S7ORM]

 

 

 

 

So gentlemen, let me see If I get it:

 

- Let's tone down the damage. Depending on how much you do it, we go back to the state of inability to kill, at least within the time frame of a radial blind, so he is up for grabs to enemies, and we just continue to complain about not having good enough frames as usual, or worse, we go back to the mindless aimbots, and auto kill modes, because that is completely fine, Ash can kill at the one hour mark in T4 with his bladestorm, but if you go 40 min with Excal, well, that is ridiculous...

 

- Remove punch through... to what end? Why do we have to remove something than any weapon can have?

 

Please, I see you pointing fingers, but if you are not specific, is like saying any nerf will do, and that only tells me that you don't like it as a matter of preference, and it has nothing to do with balance.

 

But please, tell me what can he do that makes Warframe such an unbalanced game?

 

Is it that everyone only wants to play him? Not true, not even with me, this weekend I wanted to play in teams, so I did it with Frost, Nova and Vauban, and in most of the games (ODD, TDs of various levels) I hardly saw one single Excal.

 

Is he the new meta, something that takes the gameplay away from Warframe (like gmag, according to DE)? Not even close, he is good, but not even with Storm's ludicrous idea of a 180 degrees invincible turret he can be enployed like a meta.

 

So please, tell me what bothers you so much, and how to fix it, no half words.

 

 

Tell me who the hell plays like this?

 

edited for typos

 

That's the point. Who the hell plays like that? Because you WOULD add efficiency and other mods, only INCREASING the efficacy of the skill at being OP.

No, I don't want punch through removed completely, maybe just given a reasonable limit. Maybe tone down the damage, but instead, maybe we just increase the energy cost by a bunch. That way, you can still kill thing without any real issue, but your effectively invincibile, highly powered period is significantly shorter -- but with a good team (Trinity or Limbo), you can jump right back into it again. It's like Loki's invisibility -- really, really good when on, but there's a short delay when its duration runs out where you're extremely vulnerable.

Also, even if the damage were toned down you'd be able to reach massive damage numbers because it scales on the melee multiplier. Use either Slash Dash or Radial Javelin's augments and boom, several times damage multipliers. Or just hit a bunch of enemies with a stick before pulling out the glowy glowy pole.

We already see two excals crouching back-to-back in a hallway spamming EB through the doors on either side. If that catches on, we'll just have another "do nothing and macro one button" playstyle.

I'm not saying it requires an immediate fix. I'm not demanding something be done about it RIGHT NOW. There are more pressing issues, but eventually we need some sort of regulation and balance in the game, and EB will have to be toned down a bit.

[S7ORM]

That's exactly where the problem lies IMHO : DE has chosen the easy way out so far. Instead of reworking the core of the game, they "fix" a thing here and there, until it inevitably breaks a few updates later. The devs need to get their heads together, and actually fix the game. Changing E.Blade equals to time wasted, it changes nothing. That's why I am against it, on pure principle. I want them to fix what's broken, not waste time and money breaking everything else to make it look like the core isn't, as they have done so far.

 

Look at the trial for instance. It's the perfect example of what's wrong with Warframe, it's a complete mess. It's CC everything or die. We don't fight, we just neutralize as many enemies as we can in sight and then it's a race to accomplish the objectives as fast as possible. It sucks, plain and simple. There is no challenge, there is no fun. It's dull, painfully so. People just go there because there's stuff that you won't find anywhere else. We don't play for fun, not even a little, we just play for loot. Once most players get the stuff they want, they never touch it again, because there is no fun in running that content again. I know the same can be said for other games, and I know loot is one of the cornerstones of this genre of game, but we're not talking about other games here, and the other cornerstone, the fun element, is just absent. I just want this game to get better, not sink into a pit of unfair, unfun and broken BS. And it's headed there faster and faster.

 

How can this game be ever balanced if there are TWO different games within the game? This is what's making frames, powers and weapons overpowered for leveled content and crap when endless scaling comes into play. That needs to change. This is what needs all the attention. Not one ability that will be broken soon enough anyway. First fix the core, then bring the frames, weapons and powers in line with it.

 

I know that's just my opinion, many will disagree. And I don't blame them. We all have different opinions and experiences of the game. But I see so many complaints about scaling and the mechanics added within the last 12 months, it's hard not to think I'm in the "right".

Oh! And hum... The poor guy has been bad for 2 years... can't we just let him bask in the sun just a little longer before we throw him back in the trash bin?^^'

 

What's your point? Any frame can do that. It's just a lot easier and/or less boring with some than with others.

Loki for instance. That guy is so "OP" he puts Excal to shame...

Yes, as I've said in another comment, it's not the most pressing issue. I too, would like to see more focus on core issues that have existed for as long as I've been playing (over two years), but eventually it will have to come around.

And yes, Loki is OP. I totally agree, even though he's my main. To quote myself:

Nobody calls out Loki fans, because everyone likes Loki, but it's just as much a problem to the game as Peacemaker, Miasma Spam and Old Invincible Blessing, Vortex/Batille on the old infestation (and on radial disarmed enemies)...

[[DE]Danielle]

Hey Tenno. Please avoid using profanity in your posts and be respectful to one another. If the thread continues to proceed as it has, it will be locked. 

 

Thank you! 

[S7ORM]

Yes because the enemies all just come through one door way.......... or level 80+ enemies don't have crazy amounts of armor making Radial Blind essential to keeping up in the dps category.

Also blocking only affects the front. Not your back or sides. Try to wave spam 360 degrees and the blocking does jack S#&$ but when you focus on a target all damage is mitigated from the SIDE not from anywhere else.

Your invincibility is in 180 degress ahead of you -- why would you be standing somewhere that makes you vulnerable?

When you attack with exalted blade, bullets are still blocked in 180 degrees ahead of you.

When you're in a hallway, enemies come from one of two directions -- ahead or behind you. Level design means sometimes those hallways will have dead ends on one side (which is exactly where camping happens in every other case (except mesa): Vauban + GMag, +Nekros, w/ Trinity, etc.

Or, as I said, there can be a second EB excal facing the other direction. RB is good, yes, but it's not mandatory for massive damage. Personally, I prefer a single cast of Slash Dash with the augment for the 1.5x damage boost on top, which lets me kill things at 40 minutes T3 no problem, in the same EB cast I was in back at 5 minutes into the game.

And once again, we're not balancing the game around level 80 enemies.

Hey Tenno. Please avoid using profanity in your posts and be respectful to one another. If the thread continues to proceed as it has, it will be locked. 

 

Thank you! 

Indeed, but there are some valid discussions going on in this thread.

EDIT: Ooooooh, New posts auto-merge with old posts if you post a new post and your post was the previous post. Cool!

Edited July 14, 2015 by S7ORM

[GuyOnCrack]

Your invincibility is in 180 degress ahead of you -- why would you be standing somewhere that makes you vulnerable?

When you attack with exalted blade, bullets are still blocked in 180 degrees ahead of you.

When you're in a hallway, enemies come from one of two directions -- ahead or behind you. Level design means sometimes those hallways will have dead ends on one side (which is exactly where camping happens in every other case (except mesa): Vauban + GMag, +Nekros, w/ Trinity, etc.

Or, as I said, there can be a second EB excal facing the other direction. RB is good, yes, but it's not mandatory for massive damage. Personally, I prefer a single cast of Slash Dash with the augment for the 1.5x damage boost on top, which lets me kill things at 40 minutes T3 no problem, in the same EB cast I was in back at 5 minutes into the game.

And once again, we're not balancing the game around level 80 enemies.

Indeed, but there are some valid discussions going on in this thread.

EDIT: Ooooooh, New posts auto-merge with old posts if you post a new post and your post was the previous post. Cool!

So using the environment to your advantage is wrong? Also it's not 180, a lot less than that, but people still get wrecked because they have to move around to deal damage.

Again, you need Radial Blind against high level enemies. Once again, if we are not balancing against level 80 enemies, then let's nerf all the weapons too. They can kill way to fast.

[al2606]

there is only 1 problem with EB, and that is that its waves can damage and destroy Nullifier shields, which defeats the purpose of said unit

 

some people will rage that this is being brought up, but obvious bugs need to be fixed

... I don't know why people have a problem the waves damaging Nullifier shields.

 

Try throwing a fireball or a shock projectile at the shield. Heck, pop on Hysteria and try whacking the shield without actually going inside it. Works just fine, no?

[S7ORM]

So using the environment to your advantage is wrong? Also it's not 180, a lot less than that, but people still get wrecked because they have to move around to deal damage.

Again, you need Radial Blind against high level enemies. 

No, it's important to do. That's what I'm saying. "Need" radial blind. It's nice, but you can kill things without it too. I mean, I do. Dunno about you.

 

Once again, if we are not balancing against level 80 enemies, then let's nerf all the weapons too. They can kill way to fast.

I know it's sarcasm, but I agree with it.

Edited July 14, 2015 by S7ORM