How To: Bring Cooldowns Back

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

Before you say

-Cooldowns failed we are never going back

-Cooldowns limit the fast paced gameplay

 

Let me ask you:

Is the current energy system working well? (i would say no)

 

I say yes. The energy system is working very well. I can play however I want. I can spec however I want. I can spam or not spam however I want. You want less diversity in the game and that's not something I agree with.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Hap-muhr

[RavenCorella]

I would wholeheartedly welcome COOLDOWNS in a heart beat.  When so called Ultimates are allowed to be spammed back to back they are no longer Ultimates.  They become the de facto way to play the game because they are utterly overpowered.

 

[DE] has allowed their 3rd person action shooter with Space Ninjas to devolve into a 1 button casino style mini-game where you just spam a button and 5 rounds later see what you get.

 

Send [DE] Scott back to Game Design school and re-take the course on game balance and why allowing your players to chain their most powerful abilities leads to the most boring and repetitive gameplay imaginable.

I partially agree to this, but keep in mind that you don't just press that button and win. You need energy and mods you need to work for before you can achieve that. Not everyone can afford to do that, and let's be honest, no warframe can survive without abilities in a T4.

 

The moment your cover is blown, enemies with hit-scan and aimbot will one hit/kill ANY low-armored warframe, and that is 1/3 of all warframes which rely solely on their abilities.

 

I don't deem this nerf necessary and find it only as a way to piss more people off thus potentially lowering the playerbase. If you don't wanna spam, don't. 

[Malikon]

I dont know how I feel about this.  Both sides claim that their way (cooldowns/no cooldowns) increases diversity and to an extent both are right and both are horribly wrong.  I do know that either direction will grossly effect whichever isn't chosen.  The folks that like to spam would have to change playstyles if cooldowns were implemented, while the folks that dont like to spam have to deal with that currently.   Implementing cooldowns just swaps who is unhappy at this particular time.

 

I'm afraid this is one of those situations where regardless of what gets done, someone will cry giant salty tears that their "playstyle" has been destroyed.  Yes, I put quotes around playstyle because I dont believe some of the ways that some of these folks play can be considered a "style".  That being said, I don't believe cooldowns are a good answer, and neither do I believe the energy system to be working properly. 

 

The fatigue system another poster above mentioned might be a step in the right direction, but other things must be changed in such a fashion that makes combat feel more satisfying and less players consider "spam" to be necessary.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

I say yes. The energy system is working very well. I can play however I want. I can spec however I want. I can spam or not spam however I want. You want less diversity in the game and that's not something I agree with.

Right now we have LESS diversity because people are capable of min maxing ridiculously strong abilities.

And they can spam them.

So they will.

So everyone will, because building saryn for anything other than miasma is a waste of time.

You have less diversity because the only weapons worth considering are god tier soma p, boltor p, amprex, dread , torid, etc.

You dont get to pick idk, the tetra, dera, hind, cernos because they suck.

Under this system, weak weapons have a reason to be taken.

Strong weapons are still strong.

[(PSN)CptCosmic]

150 views and 18 replies so far and not a single upvote for OP's idea. And every single non op reply has been against OP's cool down idea, I think that says something about what the majority want. 

 

because they all want to use their soma/boltor prime without drawbacks.

 

nothing would actually change for ability spammers with the suggestion, instead of efficiency you would mod for cooldown and MAYBE use a lighter weapon. you would still spam your abilities all day long, as side effect you dont have to collect orbs anymore.

 

the difference though is, first it would promote more weapon variety if you absolutely want to get the max out of your abilities instead of always getting the biggest gun you can find and second you have more built variety cause you can use your abilites as oh S#&$ button without modding for them and instead use mods that no one actually uses currently.

[(PSN)MikeCopa]

So, essentially like Mass Effect 3 Co-op.

But no, personally I don't want to limit myself to certain "light" weapons only so I can use the abilities I picked my Frame for.

Also, I don't get why people are upset about the unbalance that is going on in Warframe. Would WF be a full blown PvP game,

granted this would be alarming but it isn't. You don't like the ability spam, I do, that's why I play certain Warframes over others.

I like modding them in an efficient way so I can get the most out of abilities I like while neglecting others I don't like.

This is just my opinion tho...

[(PSN)iBoiz]

Well baldy already said that cooldown is never a solution in devstream.

[Malikon]

Didn't they also say NO PVP in a devstream?  Let us not forget how much design roadmaps and developer statements mean when the community wants something bad enough.

 

 

Clarification of my own opinion:  I do not support cooldowns, and think the energy system has failed.  Neither system will work properly.  We need a third option.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Malikon

[SickoSike]

Didn't they also say NO PVP in a devstream?  Let us not forget how much design roadmaps and developer statements mean when the community wants something bad enough.

 

 

Clarification of my own opinion:  I do not support cooldowns, and think the energy system has failed.  Neither system will work properly.  We need a third option.

PvP 2.0...

They need to fix that there's already people hacking in PvP

[Malikon]

PvP 2.0...

They need to fix that there's already people hacking in PvP

My statement had nothing to do with PVP and was in direct response to the gentleperson above me who said that "Baldy" already said no cooldowns in a dev stream.  It was more of a statement that DE is more than willing to throw previous statements out the window if they think it will benefit the game. 

 

Please move the pvp talk to the proper forums.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

 Neither system will work properly.  We need a third option.

What if: Damaging enemies was the only way to give you energy?

 

Or: Using the "meditate" emote is the only way to give you energy?

 

Nah. Let's do cooldowns.

 

 

So, essentially like Mass Effect 3 Co-op.

But no, personally I don't want to limit myself to certain "light" weapons only so I can use the abilities I picked my Frame for.

Also, I don't get why people are upset about the unbalance that is going on in Warframe. Would WF be a full blown PvP game,

granted this would be alarming but it isn't. You don't like the ability spam, I do, that's why I play certain Warframes over others.

I like modding them in an efficient way so I can get the most out of abilities I like while neglecting others I don't like.

This is just my opinion tho...

-Well, ME3 co-op WORKED. Most weapons were balanced, and there was no cheap ability spammage.

 

-Efficiency mods could reduce the effect of heavier weapons

-New weapon mods could reduce weight

[Malikon]

What if: Damaging enemies was the only way to give you energy?

 

Or: Using the "meditate" emote is the only way to give you energy?

 

Nah. Let's do cooldowns.

We will agree to disagree then.  I was around when cooldowns existed and it wasnt a great experience.  I am around now when energy exists and it's not working out either for exactly the opposite reason cooldowns didnt work.  Can I say what would be great and fix the problem?  No.  Can I say what I have seen and has not fixed the problem?  Yes.

 

We need another option.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Malikon

[Don_T_Shoot]

Didn't they also say NO PVP in a devstream?  Let us not forget how much design roadmaps and developer statements mean when the community wants something bad enough.

 

 

Clarification of my own opinion:  I do not support cooldowns, and think the energy system has failed.  Neither system will work properly.  We need a third option.

 

What if there was just less energy available in a given mission?    Same system we have now just with less orbs and weaker restores?

 

Might become too punishing if implemented with a heavy hand but perhaps the availability could be scaled back a bit?

 

I admit I haven't thought that idea through and there are probably multiple threads already discussing the pros and cons of it.

 

[EDIT] and as a bonus for DE they'd get to nerf Trinity again so the idea might appeal to their sadistic side.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Don_T_Shoot

[Tsukinoki]

I have to disagree with this idea on a few fronts.

One of the bigger ones is the "weapon weight affects cool downs!" that you seem to really be pushing for.

Because think of this scenario that would be very common with your idea:
Would you honestly want to be the Frost or Nekros or Nova that is pretty much forced to equip a lato and nothing else simply so that you can use your abilities effectively as often as you are needed to (especially for nekros)?  Given no way to really defend yourself and no way to actually kill enemies and being completely and utterly relegated to spamming the few abilities you are good for without even the ability to have some fun by killing anything?
Because honestly that is what would happen with your idea, and at least in the current system even if a frame is dragged along for a single ability they can at least kill things and have fun.
You would have the squad members that are now forced into being near useless outside of their abilities with no way to defend themselves simply so that they can actually do something with any efficiency.

And your idea would hit so many corner cases it wouldn't be funny:
-If the ability has a duration does the timer start after you cast the ability or after the duration ends?
Because this just leads to all duration abilities having the same problem that Chaos can have (or arguably worse) because now you have to wait for the duration to finish or all affected enemies to die and then you have to wait another arbitrary length of time which further hampers ability usage, or it goes in the opposite direction where if your ability has any duration at all you don't have any CD at all.
And how would that work with abilities like snowglobe that are only useful because you can recast and stack their HP?
Or how about any of vaubans skills that require spamming to be any good at all?

Basically this is doubly punishing for abilities that have duration, especially ones that were designed around the concept of being able to be spammed.

-How would this work for toggling and abilities that drain a certain energy per second?  Like peacemaker or Exalted blade?  Or even abilities like absorb?
What would be the new duration for the abilities?
If you cancel them early how would that affect your CD rather then letting it go all the way to its most extreme duration?
And I honestly can't see a way to make this work for absorb without making the ability completely useless or utterly broken OP with infinite bubble on a defense pod or something.
Or what about WoF which has a maximum duration while still being a toggle (and is handled horribly IMO but that's another topic)?

-You're removing energy entirely...so what about channeling?
Especially with how that plays into Exalted Blade (not to mention the now massive nerf to all melee combat and life drain and such) and Hysteria?

And while this might (though I doubt it) work for the starchart, what about any endless (or even a few higher level nightmare/T4 that aren't endless) mission where if your CC or abilities lapse at all its instant death?

[Malikon]

Metering the energy income likely isn't the way to handle it.  Sure, it might cut back on spam but I dont know that it will be enough to satisfy the folks that want cooldowns.  I do, however, KNOW it absolutely will not satisfy the folks that like to spam.  So one group thoroughly angry and another possibly angry or unsatisfied doesnt sound like a viable option.

 

I dont really even know for a fact that the spamming of powers is the problem.  I'm leaning towards it being a symptom of a much larger issue that is mainly caused by the game system comprised of Mods, Damage, and Hostile Scaling (henceforth referred to as the "combat system").

 

I think we should address the disharmony in the combat system and get that stabilized first.  By stabilized, I would mean the something similar to the following conditions should be met:

a) Hostiles scale in power* and gain abilities steadily from lower level to higher level.

b) Tenno scale in power* and gain abilities steadily from lower level to higher level relative to Hostiles

c) Weapons scale in power* steadily from lower level to higher level relative to Hostiles

 

Obviously, some might argue that the base of the scaling should be the Tenno or the Weapons instead of the Hostiles. That is perfectly fine.  One of the three needs to be the baseline, and the other two should scale around them.  Only once something like this is achieved can we really tell if ability spam is a real problem or not.

 

*Scaling in power in my eyes would be defined as the gaining of abilities or statistics, up to a pre-specified maximum, determined in reference to a FINITE level rage.  Scaling based on infinite level ranges does not meet this criteria.  Scaling with no pre-specified maximum, or with a default maximum of 99% does not meet this criteria.  Bold, italics, and underline for emphasis.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Malikon

[Don_T_Shoot]

Metering the energy income likely isn't the way to handle it.  Sure, it might cut back on spam but I dont know that it will be enough to satisfy the folks that want cooldowns.  I do, however, KNOW it absolutely will not satisfy the folks that like to spam.  So one group thoroughly angry and another possibly angry or unsatisfied doesnt sound like a viable option.

-snip-

Just to that point, isn't that how you know you've made a fair deal?

 

 

Also, no to cooldowns and certainly hek no to weapon stats/weights affecting efficiency in powers.  Just...no.

[Malikon]

Just to that point, isn't that how you know you've made a fair deal?

Possibly, but Mr Martin left off an important qualifier.  Both sides are initially left unhappy, but the potential for satisfaction is present for both.

 

Sadly, that lost qualifier I dont believe would be met by metering.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Malikon

[Don_T_Shoot]

I'm not sure DE should be terribly concerned about the happiness of constant power spammers.  Unless their metrics indicate that is a significant population, then they should leave it like it is.....hey wait a minute... There's a chance DE has already reached that conclusion.

 

/tinfoil hat donned

[Malikon]

/tinfoil hat donned

Welcome home, brother.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

I have to disagree with this idea on a few fronts.

One of the bigger ones is the "weapon weight affects cool downs!" that you seem to really be pushing for.

Because think of this scenario that would be very common with your idea:

Would you honestly want to be the Frost or Nekros or Nova that is pretty much forced to equip a lato and nothing else simply so that you can use your abilities effectively as often as you are needed to (especially for nekros)?  Given no way to really defend yourself and no way to actually kill enemies and being completely and utterly relegated to spamming the few abilities you are good for without even the ability to have some fun by killing anything?

Because honestly that is what would happen with your idea, and at least in the current system even if a frame is dragged along for a single ability they can at least kill things and have fun.

You would have the squad members that are now forced into being near useless outside of their abilities with no way to defend themselves simply so that they can actually do something with any efficiency.

 

Nobody is forcing you to equip a lato under this model.

Even if you did, the cooldowns would be so d@mn short that YES you could defend yourself.

for example

 

Frost could use freeze like every half second. Ice wave every like 1.5 seconds. Etc. 

So you could defend yourself quite easily. Especially with the upcoming rework.

Nova wouldn't even need a weapon under very short cooldowns.

Nekros is more than a desecrate monkey. Try using the other abilities and watch the magic happen.

 

Any frame could easily defend themselves with such short cooldowns.

 

Regarding duration abilities, that is up to DE to work the magic and fine tune abilities.

 

Again, DE can handle tweaking toggle abilities.

 

Now we can bring back charge attacks.

 

Those missions are supposed to be hard. 

[Twistedsparkle]

Im actually in favor of cooldowns if done right (Me3 is a good example)

thats not me saying that this game absolutely needs them though
there are other solutions of course

but I do think that the energy system could use atleast in some form an update

also I have to comment
alot of people are bashing me3 system here without even knowing its strenghts
in that game you can make either a weapon focused build or an ability focused build
or a build thats versatile in both

so lets just think for a how that would work in warframe
you could make a very weapon heavy build which would increase the time of cooldowns
but the tradeoff is that the weapons would alot stronger

or an ability heavy build which would in turn boost the abilites

or versabuild which would provide you both strenghts with some trade offs for both

again Im not saying that warframe needs this kind of system
but Im saying it is a great system with really good balance and its not a bad Idea to take some pointers from it

[geninrising]

To all those complaining that CD would not work and is a bad idea. What you guys are failing to take into account is the idea that the entire system of scaling and abilities would most definitely need to face various tweaks in order to bring everything into line with said tweaks. The only reason we are in the spam fest situation we are is because of current enemy balance making players feel the need to hit that glorious 4, 3, or 2 time and time again. If things were rebalanced we could have pre-mass efficiency WF back and things would be fantastic. It would honestly be great to have to utilize all tools at our disposal instead of being able to push one button and watch everything explode. As an added bonus here powers could get tweaked to actual make them useful no matter the content without them feeling broken AFK due to spam. As it is if said powers were tweaked to be scaling or synergize well with each other the game would be too damn easy to even ever give a challenge(oh wait it already is if super easy 40+ minute t4 infinite content is any indication).

[shyguyk]

What about a charge system?

 

ex: you start out with 6 casts of snow globe. You can spam 6 right away but you wont be able to do again so for some time.

 

If you know how battlefield 4 handles vehicle weapons you might understand what I'm getting at.

 

I'm not sure what the recharge rate would be though. If its going to stop spam i'd guess around 10 seconds for 4's

 

If its a channeling thing it only has the x sec wait between recasts

Edited July 15, 2015 by shyguyk

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

Right now we have LESS diversity because people are capable of min maxing ridiculously strong abilities.

And they can spam them.

So they will.

So everyone will, because building saryn for anything other than miasma is a waste of time.

You have less diversity because the only weapons worth considering are god tier soma p, boltor p, amprex, dread , torid, etc.

You dont get to pick idk, the tetra, dera, hind, cernos because they suck.

Under this system, weak weapons have a reason to be taken.

Strong weapons are still strong.

 

I still don't understand how having the OPTION to min-max incredible damage makes the game LESS diverse. Adding cooldown timers only means that you add artificial difficulty which basically means you have a delay that you cannot control. Ie, LESS diversity. What you want to do is get everyone to play according to some inner ideal you have about what's right. Newsflash: Not everyone plays Warframe for the same reasons you do. Not everyone subscribes to your idea of difficulty. Not everyone agrees with your idea of what's fun.

 

If DE ever did something to this to Warframe, I'd quit. I've had enough of painfully slow consolitis FPS clones already to last me a lifetime. I'm a ridiculously powerful space ninja, I'd definitely like to remain so.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

Snip

I Laughed so hard when i saw your post and thought of this

http://i.imgur.com/wZyHs0X.png