New Iron Skin, Initial Feedback

[Enlil]

You claim that I'm trolling these boards, resort to profanity, then actually follow my advice and provide the exact anecdotal evidence I was hoping to prompt.  You do the EXACT thing you claim, erroneously, contributed nothing to the conversation.  Not sure you see the hypocrisy there.  Thought you should have it pointed out to you.

 

Getting past wave 20 on Pluto should be hard, in my opinion.  It used to be easy, and it looks like the devs are working on re-balancing things so that it's hard now.  I have stood between 3 level 45 anciencts and crawlers.  Thanks to my guns, they were dead in 2 Iron Skins.  Yes, it broke in the middle of fighting them.  No, I don't think that's a problem with the power.

hate to say, but he has a point in this aswell..

[Jeraggerjack]

hate to say, but he has a point in this aswell..

No, he doesn't have a point. Reactored gear is effectively level 60, so those 3 ancients he mentioned were 15 levels lower than him. He should have been able to beat all 3 easily with needing the ability at all and if his rhino is anything like the average, using ironskin was completely pointless.

The fact of the matter is that Iron Skin as it is now does not scale. It now offers invulnerability to stun, disruption, etc. That's fantastic ... ! for lower level mobs. However, for anything close to level 60 or above it, it's worthless, especially as a taunt. The rhino pops iron skin and its gone, instantly, as if it was never cast. Not working as intended.

As I stated in my previous post, the current incarnation of iron skin was a half assed attempt to appease the masses for a change that never should have happened in the first place.

They should have programmed it to where the invulnerability to toxics, disruptors, etc. stayed as intended with iron skin while changing it to DR. If this could not be accomplished at that time, the ability should have never been touched until it could have been accomplished.

Players and design council members who keep applauding and defending this change are deluding themselves in addition to reinforcing a mentality and attitude that will ultimately end up with this game going the same way Dark Sector did.  At this point, with this attitude, I am wondering why not suggest removing the rhino warframe completely, as it obviously has no place in this game. It does not do a single thing that the frost already does.

You folks keep going on about balancing and skill and then go on to use examples of mobs that are at least 15 levels lower and say its ok, it is NOT ok. It doesn't scale and it doesn't allow rhino to do the job it was intended to do.

I like DE, I really do. They remind me a lot of Volition from back in the late 90s... but that does not mean that I'm going to blow sunshine up everyone's arses. This game does not need balancing. It needs to be challenging , yes, but it does not need to be balanced. The borderlands franchise is very similar to this game. I would strongly suggest following its example when it comes to improving the game.  Improve all the warframes to where they are all awesome and useful and still maintain their unique "flavor". No two frames should feel the same and thus should offer appeal.

Do not excuse and explain away mistakes. Acknowledge them , learn from them, and most importantly, correct them.

Touching Rhino skin before there was a working change to it was a mistake. Trying to balance the game around low level content is a mistake. Not having incentive for players to pursue max level content (outer terminus) is a mistake.

Continuing to excuse, explain, defend, and justify these mistakes is not going to result in a good game. It's going to end up with a burned out community that will spend at most 3-6 months deluding itself before it moves on and leaving DE wondering what the hell happened.

[Lightwire]

 

Getting right into it...

 

The bad

- Yeah, 800 does feel a tad low, especially as you start to get into higher level content. Five level 40 chargers were able to take down IS in a few seconds. That said, it was able to stand up to Phorid's scream and 3-4 hits before breaking.

- Immunity to nauseous crawlers seems to be missing (Was it present pre-7.11? I don't recall). This means that one can effectively stunlock you for long enough that all sorts of other nasties can show up and ruin your day. This missing immunity may be a bug, and I've let Rebecca know about it already.

 

The good

- I really enjoy the new sense of urgency that the damage cap adds. It changes the skill from "I can tank anything in the world and their mothers for this set duration of time" to "I can still tank, but I still have to be cautious about the situations I get myself into". It does make you think a bit more before popping the skill and wading into the fray, which is a good thing. Now I'm not saying that the damage cap is the only way to add this feeling, but it does add it.

- Immunities are back (with exception, see above)! Yay!

- The damage cap is affected by Focus.

 

In summary, I like the change from the relatively more mindless old IS, where you hit the button and knew that nothing could harm you for the next X seconds, to a system where you're still capable of tanking, but you actually have to consider the situations you're getting into. However there could still stand to be some tweaking: Groups of high level enemies seem to tear through the damage cap with relative ease (Though I was able to solo high level stuff pretty well - again, I just had to be careful that I didn't get in over my head). 

 

As many people have explained quite well in previous threads and posts, scalability of the skill is the major issue. It's important to remember that achieving both scalability and balance for a tanking-type skill like Iron Skin will be tricky, though. As of now I believe the plan is to reevaluate Rhino's other three skills and then looking back at Iron Skin to see how it fits in, and I think that's a sound plan.

 

 

I love your interpretation on the new Iron Skin change. It makes you appreciate your powers more than 'click button, yawn and waltz'.

 

My only issue is the aggro mechanic. I just don't feel that it's working properly! I'd use it, and all of my teammates are still being targetted. As a proper tank, the aggro mechanic should just pull everyone in the room as if a beacon of unstoppable force just entered in the room, forcing enemies to go "Ohey, this guy means business!"

 

Certainly would make feeling like the tank a much more supportive and effective role.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Lightwire

[Biscuithammer]

I just wish the Trinity wasn't a better tank. I'd like to see the Trinity Link skill given to the Rhino. Or at least bring back Iron Skin with no damage cap, or an increased damage cap.

[Gearb0x]

No, he doesn't have a point. Reactored gear is effectively level 60, so those 3 ancients he mentioned were 15 levels lower than him. He should have been able to beat all 3 easily with needing the ability at all and if his rhino is anything like the average, using ironskin was completely pointless.

The fact of the matter is that Iron Skin as it is now does not scale. It now offers invulnerability to stun, disruption, etc. That's fantastic ... ! for lower level mobs. However, for anything close to level 60 or above it, it's worthless, especially as a taunt. The rhino pops iron skin and its gone, instantly, as if it was never cast. Not working as intended.

As I stated in my previous post, the current incarnation of iron skin was a half assed attempt to appease the masses for a change that never should have happened in the first place.

They should have programmed it to where the invulnerability to toxics, disruptors, etc. stayed as intended with iron skin while changing it to DR. If this could not be accomplished at that time, the ability should have never been touched until it could have been accomplished.

Players and design council members who keep applauding and defending this change are deluding themselves in addition to reinforcing a mentality and attitude that will ultimately end up with this game going the same way Dark Sector did.  At this point, with this attitude, I am wondering why not suggest removing the rhino warframe completely, as it obviously has no place in this game. It does not do a single thing that the frost already does.

You folks keep going on about balancing and skill and then go on to use examples of mobs that are at least 15 levels lower and say its ok, it is NOT ok. It doesn't scale and it doesn't allow rhino to do the job it was intended to do.

I like DE, I really do. They remind me a lot of Volition from back in the late 90s... but that does not mean that I'm going to blow sunshine up everyone's arses. This game does not need balancing. It needs to be challenging , yes, but it does not need to be balanced. The borderlands franchise is very similar to this game. I would strongly suggest following its example when it comes to improving the game.  Improve all the warframes to where they are all awesome and useful and still maintain their unique "flavor". No two frames should feel the same and thus should offer appeal.

Do not excuse and explain away mistakes. Acknowledge them , learn from them, and most importantly, correct them.

Touching Rhino skin before there was a working change to it was a mistake. Trying to balance the game around low level content is a mistake. Not having incentive for players to pursue max level content (outer terminus) is a mistake.

Continuing to excuse, explain, defend, and justify these mistakes is not going to result in a good game. It's going to end up with a burned out community that will spend at most 3-6 months deluding itself before it moves on and leaving DE wondering what the hell happened.

My point was about wave 20 on pluto.  I presented the anecdote about  level 45 mobs to counter a previous accusation that I had never encountered the situation facing infested that I outlined.

 

You missed my point.  I hope not to miss yours.

 

I have used my Iron Skin in Tower 3 exterminate missions against level 90 corrupted heavy gunners.  It has held out long enough for me to kill them. My experience with the ability does not mesh with your statement that "it's gone ... as if it was never cast."  Does this satisfy your need for posters to face down enemies half again their level before their opinions can be shared?

 

Your argument is aggressive, dismissive and self-aggrandizing.  All that's a pity, because you're pretty much right.

 

I know it's not expected, but if you had read all of my posts in this thread you would see that they build toward the following points:

 

1) The Invul IS was stupidly overpowered and stupidly easy to use.  It was a brain-dead godmode button that I personally spammed while laughing.  It's gone.  Dead and not coming back.  Scott said as much in Livestream #6

2) The current IS with 800 damage is not useless.  The taunt is good.

3) I concede that the current IS is underwhelming at higher levels.

4) I think a  %DR system with CC immunity and the Taunt would be an excellent balance.  It would scale with mods, encourage intelligent play and be a multiplier for Rhino's large health and shield pool.

 

Unsurprisingly, we agree on the final point.  Fixing the "No CC" bug would have addressed the concerns the first nerf raised.  Changing the damage scale from 4000 bonus shield tanking to 800 bonus damage tanking was foolish.  I'm not apologizing for or excusing DE; I'm attempting to respectfully refute points that are without basis in my perception of the game.  Many times in this thread I've failed in that attempt, but I think you've chosen the wrong poster-boy for your "They say everything is fine" campaign.

 

My opinion has changed.  Not because of your attack, but because of Tyrian3k's simple demonstration that DR gives more effective life than any flat damage mitigation under 4k.  A DR system would scale, for free, with Redirection and Vitality.  

 

DE, by the way, doesn't seem to be defending their decision, but listening to our feedback.  They admitted that Rhino is still under review and that they are looking at our conversations to see how things should go down.  It was our "New IS Sux" threads that drove them to make the drastic change they did before correcting the bug.

 

But it's long, thoughtful threads like this one, where we can find common ground to agree on a fix even though we come at the problem from two different angles; it's threads like this one that result in positive, useful change.

[Phoenix86]

So let's wait for what it seems the best solution:

 

A % Iron Skin (80%  again?) increased by Focus, with CC immunity (cost and duration unchanged)

[Enlil]

I've got over 4 million XP on my Rhino.  I've got over a quarter of my 200 hours on Rhino.  I don't clear rooms with buttons, I clear rooms with Scindos and Gorgon fire.  Also, you missed a question mark.

 

You certainly don't seem to have your Rhino Charge and Continuity maxed out, or you'd see just how far you can run with it.  Click it twice and you're over 50 yards away.  Most rooms in this game are less than 20 yards long.

 

I've main-tanked in multiple MMOs.  It's not a common shooter mechanic, but I am familiar with tanking systems.  Having something besides proximity determine aggro is a blessing to the team.  The very idea of a spammable Taunt giving 30%+ bonus Effective Life Time would be decried as broken good in a traditional MMO.

 

I've been playing my Polarized Rhino today and the only time I went down was to a level 61 alert Jackal's grenades.  No issues on anything else.  

 

I still think you're all whining because your utility power is now a utility power, not a god-mode button.  You can pop taunt and hide (le gasp) to draw fire from a teammate reviving another.  You can pull aggro from the pod.  You can protect your Rhino Stomp energy against ADs.  It's a different tool now, in that it is now a tool, not an "I win" button.  

 

How much health do you guys want from it?  1000? (it already is with Focus) 2000? 3463?  You guys are claiming the number's not high enough without determining how high you want the number to actually be.  The best suggestion I've seen is the application of Rhino's Armor DR to the IS.  That would allow savvy players to invest in Focus and Steel Fiber to pump "only" 800 up into ((1.3*800)/.241)=  4315 bonus health.  Would that be enough?  That's 140% total max life in there!  Would that satisfy everyone, or do you just want your brain-dead godmode back?

Here goes the boiling point again.

[Enlil]

If you seriously think ember an tank like rhino pre-IS nerf 2.0  then you havent played ember. No armor, low shields. With IS affecting shields a 80% Rhino is going to to outtank and a 90% ember by leagues. Rhino has higher armor, higher shield cap and more health. Now as far as Trin and frost go, sure they need to be nerfed into percentages as well/ No one is arguing against that except godmode players of those frames and godmode rhino players perhaps.

 

Fact is the original IS was broken. Face tanking anyhting and everything ingame with zero support is idiocy. With the 80% fix Rhino is still the premier tank but needs support in higher levels of play. Thats balanced. I feel alot of the players who are demanding iS go back to full invuln are worried about solo ability. I like soloing myself. But I know there are going to limits to what I can do alone vs other players. The fact is IS is never going back to its old incarnation. To keep on it is just wasting space. 

 

Id spend my time trying to get DE to see how $&*&*#(%& this new fix is instead of pestering them about something they have said will never happen.

No, pls dont nerf trin and fost.. 

[LasersGoPewPew]

maybe instead of a damage cap they should do what the skills name actually implies and make it an extremely high armor bonus that affects the damage your shields take? skin as tough as iron better be able to withstand more damage.

[Tyrian3k]

Scott's note on IS during the livestream wasn't really something I liked to hear, as he thinks that damage absorb is the way to go.

 

I don't know what he has planned for it, but it better be a lot more than the 800 damage we have now.

 

 

 

What could be done is combining damage reduction with absorbing damage (which I think was already suggested by.

 

It would work like this:

Once activated, the player gains X% damage reduction and immunity to all status affects for Y seconds with and additional absorb shield that can take Z damage and lasts until it is depleted. (X, Y and Z are just variables to be set by DE)

 

My intention here is to make the transition when IS expires a bit less harsh in ongoing battles. If the absorb shield is depleted first, you still have damage reduction for a few seconds and if the damage reduction expires first you still have some damage absorb before your shields and health are in danger.

 

Example: 60% reduction (78% with Focus), 3000 absorb (3900 with Focus; affected by the damage reduction) and a duration of 10 s (13 s with Continuity)

With an equipped Focus mod IS could absorb ~17700 damage in this case.

 

DE should really consider making IS Rhino's ultimate and make it cost 100, so that they can increase those values to a higher level without making it spammable.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Tyrian3k

[Zonzai]

So much anger.  You'll all feel better after you sell your Rhinos and roll a frost or trinity.  Trust me, it's like a sigh of relief.  "I can tank again!"

[aranchino]

I honestly think it is ridiculous that Rhino's Iron Skin power got mulled because that was the focus of his suit.  The whole reason I was going to buy Rhino is because of his temporary god mode, but now he has a high susceptibility to damage and Iron Skin doesn't protect him well.

[Kaidinah]

I would want immunities, damage reduction, and the taunt. None of this damage cap stuff. I was okay with 80% damage reduction.

[Jeraggerjack]

My point was about wave 20 on pluto.  I presented the anecdote about  level 45 mobs to counter a previous accusation that I had never encountered the situation facing infested that I outlined.

 

You missed my point.  I hope not to miss yours.

 

I have used my Iron Skin in Tower 3 exterminate missions against level 90 corrupted heavy gunners.  It has held out long enough for me to kill them. My experience with the ability does not mesh with your statement that "it's gone ... as if it was never cast."  Does this satisfy your need for posters to face down enemies half again their level before their opinions can be shared?

 

Your argument is aggressive, dismissive and self-aggrandizing.  All that's a pity, because you're pretty much right.

 

I know it's not expected, but if you had read all of my posts in this thread you would see that they build toward the following points:

 

1) The Invul IS was stupidly overpowered and stupidly easy to use.  It was a brain-dead godmode button that I personally spammed while laughing.  It's gone.  Dead and not coming back.  Scott said as much in Livestream #6

2) The current IS with 800 damage is not useless.  The taunt is good.

3) I concede that the current IS is underwhelming at higher levels.

4) I think a  %DR system with CC immunity and the Taunt would be an excellent balance.  It would scale with mods, encourage intelligent play and be a multiplier for Rhino's large health and shield pool.

 

Unsurprisingly, we agree on the final point.  Fixing the "No CC" bug would have addressed the concerns the first nerf raised.  Changing the damage scale from 4000 bonus shield tanking to 800 bonus damage tanking was foolish.  I'm not apologizing for or excusing DE; I'm attempting to respectfully refute points that are without basis in my perception of the game.  Many times in this thread I've failed in that attempt, but I think you've chosen the wrong poster-boy for your "They say everything is fine" campaign.

 

My opinion has changed.  Not because of your attack,

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

One of the first things that is taught in introductory logic is not how to make good arguments, but how to recognize bad ones.

For your benefit, I've italicized, underlined, and bolded relevant statements in your post to help you see yourself the bad reasoning.

Self-aggrandizing? Pot calling the kettle black much? Also, how am I enhancing or exaggerating my own importance, power, or reputation? You're the one that's claiming to be singled out here as a poster boy.

I find it interesting that you perceived my posts as hostile and then claim that you hope not to miss my point. I believe that I could not have possibly been more clear in what I posted, even if you did perceive my posts as an "attack" and "aggressive" The phrase you were looking for, I think, is "not politically correct.". I also find it interesting that you seem to imply that you have omniscient and omnipotent powers in asserting that I have not read every single post in this thread, including yours.

None of that really matters though. It doesn't affect the truth of what I posted.

The fact of the matter is, again, that iron skin was not broken. It could have used a change, yes, but the change that was in mind was not working as intended and thus should have never happened until a working version was out. There is no "overpowered" "godmode" or any of that for me. I am looking at "working" and "not working."

Also attempting to use the example of one mob to try to change your argument to a valid one when the form is still invalid ( Valid does not mean correct. Learn what testing for validity is if you do not know already) is a waste of time. I can go in front of hyena , pop iron skin, and stand there and its gone in 2 - 3 seconds. That's with every other mob in the room dead. When you're fighting 8+ mobs of equivalent or higher level, Iron Skin as it is does not work. It's gone, instantly, as if it was never cast. Heck, even with 2 or 3 shooting at you it does not hold up for more than a couple of seconds unless you get to cover. With Rhino's slow sprint speed, the role rhino is supposed to fill, and the aggro mechanic, this completely defeats the purpose of IS in the first place.

As it is right now, Iron Skin is fluff. In every situation where it would be needed to cast, it is better not to cast it. In every situation that's been used as an example where iron skin was used, the same results would have been achieved if it wasn't cast in the first place. It doesn't stand up to the test.

 

Edited May 31, 2013 by Jeraggerjack

[SteelSoldier]

I actually have an idea to fix iron skin, it is pretty simple really.

The first second that you cast your iron skin you get 100% invicibility

After that 1 second the damage reduction starts reducing itself to 0 when it reaches it´s max duration.

 

Example Iron Skin, 200 Shield, 6 Seconds

 

The first second grants you complete inviciblity, at 2nd 80% DR, at 3rd 60%, at 4th 40%, at 5th 20%, at 6th it is 0, but the shield also disappears completely.

[WARLOCKE]

Guys, Guys....hold up. I figured out how to play Rhino pro MLG style like some people on this thread. If you cant tank with new IS its you, not the new IS. Here is the pro tip scrubs.......hit IS......run to hide behind cover.....tank behind cover and hope its not Xini. There, now you know.