New Iron Skin, Initial Feedback

[WARLOCKE]

Also, radial blast is still worthless and rhino stomp has always had a niche use. Im confused as to how Rhinos other abilities got buffed. Regardless, I have a sinking feeling DE wont change a thing. Not enough backlash.

[MrMagoolachub]

800, a tad low?

 

More than a tad, on higher level missions it's just a useless ability as it will disintegrate almost instantly after use, this was especially true on harder void missions I did. Some might say "but you shouldn't be able to tank enemies that high level", to which I'd say then what the hell is the point of having the ability at all, to tank easier low level enemies?

 

DE if you read this, I would say unless you plan on increasing 800 to something ridiculous such as 8000, drop the damage cap idea entirely, unfortunately I didn't get a chance to try the 80% damage skin but I believe I would have -much- preferred it to this.

Edited May 25, 2013 by MrMagoolachub

[Gearb0x]

You're not a Rhino player are you.  Rhino doesn't have any good AoE damage.  He can't clear a room with a button.  He can't run away from mobs.  He has to stand there and shoot them.  A 30% boost and aggroing everything nearby is not enough.  That's a couple of seconds of survivability in the late game, in exchange for &!$$ing every mob around you off.  It's a suicide button.

 

I've got over 4 million XP on my Rhino.  I've got over a quarter of my 200 hours on Rhino.  I don't clear rooms with buttons, I clear rooms with Scindos and Gorgon fire.  Also, you missed a question mark.

 

You certainly don't seem to have your Rhino Charge and Continuity maxed out, or you'd see just how far you can run with it.  Click it twice and you're over 50 yards away.  Most rooms in this game are less than 20 yards long.

 

I've main-tanked in multiple MMOs.  It's not a common shooter mechanic, but I am familiar with tanking systems.  Having something besides proximity determine aggro is a blessing to the team.  The very idea of a spammable Taunt giving 30%+ bonus Effective Life Time would be decried as broken good in a traditional MMO.

 

I've been playing my Polarized Rhino today and the only time I went down was to a level 61 alert Jackal's grenades.  No issues on anything else.  

 

I still think you're all whining because your utility power is now a utility power, not a god-mode button.  You can pop taunt and hide (le gasp) to draw fire from a teammate reviving another.  You can pull aggro from the pod.  You can protect your Rhino Stomp energy against ADs.  It's a different tool now, in that it is now a tool, not an "I win" button.  

 

How much health do you guys want from it?  1000? (it already is with Focus) 2000? 3463?  You guys are claiming the number's not high enough without determining how high you want the number to actually be.  The best suggestion I've seen is the application of Rhino's Armor DR to the IS.  That would allow savvy players to invest in Focus and Steel Fiber to pump "only" 800 up into ((1.3*800)/.241)=  4315 bonus health.  Would that be enough?  That's 140% total max life in there!  Would that satisfy everyone, or do you just want your brain-dead godmode back?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Gearb0x

[Tyrian3k]

I've got over 4 million XP on my Rhino.  I've got over a quarter of my 200 hours on Rhino.  I don't clear rooms with buttons, I clear rooms with Scindos and Gorgon fire.  Also, you missed a question mark.

 

You certainly don't seem to have your Rhino Charge and Continuity maxed out, or you'd see just how far you can run with it.  Click it twice and you're over 50 yards away.  Most rooms in this game are less than 20 yards long.

 

I've main-tanked in multiple MMOs.  It's not a common shooter mechanic, but I am familiar with tanking systems.  Having something besides proximity determine aggro is a blessing to the team.  The very idea of a spammable Taunt giving 30%+ bonus Effective Life Time would be decried as broken good in a traditional MMO.

 

I've been playing my Polarized Rhino today and the only time I went down was to a level 61 alert Jackal's grenades.  No issues on anything else.  

 

I still think you're all whining because your utility power is now a utility power, not a god-mode button.  You can pop taunt and hide (le gasp) to draw fire from a teammate reviving another.  You can pull aggro from the pod.  You can protect your Rhino Stomp energy against ADs.  It's a different tool now, in that it is now a tool, not an "I win" button.  

 

How much health do you guys want from it?  1000? (it already is with Focus) 2000? 3463?  You guys are claiming the number's not high enough without determining how high you want the number to actually be.  The best suggestion I've seen is the application of Rhino's Armor DR to the IS.  That would allow savvy players to invest in Focus and Steel Fiber to pump "only" 800 up into ((1.3*800)/.241)=  4315 bonus health.  Would that be enough?  That's 140% total max life in there!  Would that satisfy everyone, or do you just want your brain-dead godmode back?

 

What do 140% help me if we had +400% with 80% damage reduction? Or maybe even get the same damage reduction that Ember has with her skill (91% with focus).

If we take your example of a Rhino with 740 health and 1110 shields which as you said totals up to 3025.5 total damage and add the 91% reduction that Rhino could take 33617 damage. That's just a tad bit more than measly 800 damage, isn't it?

Even if it's just the old 80% reduction Rhino could still take 15128 damage instead of measly 3826.

[HomeyCDawg]

Sadly, I've decided to retire my Rhino until they decide to give him his proper invulnerability back. The first nerf I was kind of able to handle because it still lasted at least a few seconds before your shields were blasted off. Now with the second nerf, when playing against higher level enemies where tanking is actually needed, drawing all of their aggro will cause them to blast iron skin and my shields off in about half a second.

 

Sorry Rhino, but you were a one trick pony, and they took away your trick.

[MaNs1nH0]

So does Focus affect Iron Skin in any way?

 

Also why do Infected Creepers and Laser Walkers get past Iron Skin?

[MXXVI]

Well I say what I've said before elsewhere.

 

As a Rhino player, right now...I'd rather that they stick with what is apparently their plan, and adjust the other abilities before they mess around with IS anymore.

 

Having given it some thought, I don't want the old Iron Skin back. Because with the old Iron Skin back, the Rhino is broken. The Rhino's second tier ability becomes its defining asset, and the others aren't worth burning energy on.

 

And the entire Warframe becomes a dull meatshield.

 

Surely there are better ways to restore the survivability and "tanking" of the Rhino without relying on a single ability?

[Ganpot]

As a Rhino player, right now...I'd rather that they stick with what is apparently their plan, and adjust the other abilities before they mess around with IS anymore.

 

Having given it some thought, I don't want the old Iron Skin back. Because with the old Iron Skin back, the Rhino is broken. The Rhino's second tier ability becomes its defining asset, and the others aren't worth burning energy on.

 

Surely there are better ways to restore the survivability and "tanking" of the Rhino without relying on a single ability?

 

Honestly, I kind of don't want DE to mess with IS any more either.  Not because I like the ability, but because every time they've "fixed" it before they've nerfed the hell out of it.  It's already almost a suicide button on high level missions, so I don't even want to think about how they could break the ability even more. 

 

There's nothing wrong with having a non-ultimate ability define a class.  Excalibur's Slash Dash is the most iconic ability in the entire game.  I think the only reason more classes aren't instantly associated with their 1st and 2nd tier abilities is because (to be very blunt) DE hasn't managed to make most of them useful.  A large portion of players don't even bother slotting in their first tier of abilities. 

 

The reason why Rhino almost certainly needs invincibility is due to enemy level scaling.  The current endgame revolves around finding ways to avoid damage all together (Loki's hologram, Frost's Snowglobe, etc.), becuase enemies will eventually get to a point when they can kill a player within seconds.  A tank needs to be just as effective regardless of enemy level, or else the entire class becomes useless.  I agree that Rhino needs to be more than a one trick pony, but that revolves around buffing his other abilities to make them useful, not nerfing Iron Skin some more. 

[Gearb0x]

What do 140% help me if we had +400% with 80% damage reduction? Or maybe even get the same damage reduction that Ember has with her skill (91% with focus).

If we take your example of a Rhino with 740 health and 1110 shields which as you said totals up to 3025.5 total damage and add the 91% reduction that Rhino could take 33617 damage. That's just a tad bit more than measly 800 damage, isn't it?

Even if it's just the old 80% reduction Rhino could still take 15128 damage instead of measly 3826.

 

Now that, that is a fair and well presented point. Minor nitpick: my example Rhino has 765 hp thanks to Thrakk helm, but that's just a particular detail.    Your comparison of what everyone hated to what exists today is well presented and nicely succinct.

 

I'd like to point out to all those asking about Focus: The OP pointed out it should be applying to the net IS HP.  Max focus gives you 1040 rather than just 800.

[Memnarch]

IronSkin Is a meaningless ability once you meander to a planet where you encounter a cluster of mobs that hit for more than 3 points of damage a shot. So pretty much after saturn? Forget Pluto. Hit it, it drops almost immediatly from reaching damage cap.

 

Nothing has been done about Rhino's mobility which is why Ironskin being what it was - Immunity - Was acceptable. Catch me if you can, but you'll get beat down eventually. Old Ironskin made up for his terrible mobility with the ability to Survive. Currently 800 dmg is squat in a meaningful zone that drop meaningful loot. a pair of lancers can drain that before their Junk guns run dry. and you're left spamming 1 ability over and over again just to walk from 1 room to another.

 

Now all the Greneer kids go *pop* *pop* *pop* look guys i bagged me another Rhino Look how Easy it was! TEE FRAKKING HEE!!!

  It needs to have a MINIMUM duration OR remove the dumb changes you made to it in the first place - the ones that Nobody asked for.

Right now Trinity out-tanks Rhino by Miles and offers more Utility to a broader group set-up.

[Seanjuju]

Honestly, I kind of don't want DE to mess with IS any more either.  Not because I like the ability, but because every time they've "fixed" it before they've nerfed the hell out of it.  It's already almost a suicide button on high level missions, so I don't even want to think about how they could break the ability even more. 

 

There's nothing wrong with having a non-ultimate ability define a class.  Excalibur's Slash Dash is the most iconic ability in the entire game.  I think the only reason more classes aren't instantly associated with their 1st and 2nd tier abilities is because (to be very blunt) DE hasn't managed to make most of them useful.  A large portion of players don't even bother slotting in their first tier of abilities. 

 

The reason why Rhino almost certainly needs invincibility is due to enemy level scaling.  The current endgame revolves around finding ways to avoid damage all together (Loki's hologram, Frost's Snowglobe, etc.), becuase enemies will eventually get to a point when they can kill a player within seconds.  A tank needs to be just as effective regardless of enemy level, or else the entire class becomes useless.  I agree that Rhino needs to be more than a one trick pony, but that revolves around buffing his other abilities to make them useful, not nerfing Iron Skin some more. 

-Ultimates should be unique or superior to all similar abilities

-The current IS is nothing more than a placeholder

-Nerfing isn't the only means of balancing

-DE, in their infinite wisdom, is looking at Rhino's entire ability set, not just IS

Its possible that they don't intend to rework a temporary fix when they're already balancing the entire frame. What's important is to point out all the faults in the temporary IS so they know what's needed. Mechanic suggestions have been taken into consideration and we have yet to see their final fix. It was clever of Thor to get out in front of this by starting the topic but I think everyone's exhausted from pouring ideas/rage into the hot topic thread.

[Tortoos]

Give him 15 seconds of invulnerability back. Make it his 4th skill. Make Rhino Stomp a normal ability but possibly tone down it's duration of disable to match. Replace that awful radial blast with an aoe taunt. Done. What is the problem here. Don't see why this is hard to do or implement and would make him into an actual tank instead of a wall of meat with a lousy iron skin (now), or a brain dead tank with full invulnerability (before).

Also let's face the facts. There is absolutely no reason to play rhino over trinity or frost in his current state. NONE. ZIP. ZERO. He's worthless. Tank skills need to scale, This is like balance 101.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Tortoos

[fishworshipper]

Rhino: One person invulnerable. 15 second duration. CC immunity. Toxic immunity.

Trinity: 8 Second duration. Invulnerability. REFLECTS ALL DAMAGE.

Frost: Immobile area of projectile immunity. 30 seconds.

Which looks best? None, because they all have weaknesses that balance out their strengths. So, lets see what is good now:

Rhino: One person Invulnerable. CC immunity. Toxic immunity. Draws aggro. After 800 damage taken, breaks. 15 seconds duration.

Trinity: 8 Second duration. Invulnerability. REFLECTS ALL DAMAGE.

Frost: Immobile area of projectile immunity. 30 seconds.

Now what looks better?

[PaperAlien]

I'm actually surprised there wasn't another uproar over the new IS, because 800 damage seems to be really neglible at high levels, it's actually worse than the DR version, because with 80% DR you actually get 5x~1000=~5000 effective shields instead of ~1000+800=~1800 effective shields.

I actually really liked that idea some guy had where IS still had 100% invulnerability BUT reduced the damage you dealt. This would let Rhino tank, but it wouldn't be mindless "press 2 because why not," but rather a tradeoff.

[Seanjuju]

I'm actually surprised there wasn't another uproar over the new IS, because 800 damage seems to be really neglible at high levels, it's actually worse than the DR version, because with 80% DR you actually get 5x~1000=~5000 effective shields instead of ~1000+800=~1800 effective shields.

I actually really liked that idea some guy had where IS still had 100% invulnerability BUT reduced the damage you dealt. This would let Rhino tank, but it wouldn't be mindless "press 2 because why not," but rather a tradeoff.

What's the point in uproar when DE hasn't presented a solution yet. For now, I'd rather they focus on rebalancing rhino instead of redesigning a temporary IS. If its going to take more than a week though, something else might have to be done.

[K1LLZ0NE]

DE has been really quite about their plans for Rhino.  Are they satisfied with this new version of Iron Skin?  If not, what is there next approach?  What did they not like about the original Iron Skin?  I have been asking these questions for over a week now and have heard little response.  How can they expect us to really help if they won't include us in their thought process?

[PaperAlien]

What's the point in uproar when DE hasn't presented a solution yet. For now, I'd rather they focus on rebalancing rhino instead of redesigning a temporary IS. If its going to take more than a week though, something else might have to be done.

There isn't, but these forums aren't really known for being reasonable in their complaints.

[Jintachi_Sanumai]

They need to give us better utilities. Ever try using rhino charge into a horde of infested? i get shunted to the side and the ones that i literally bounced off of get knicked down. leaving the rest of the horde intact... Where as an excalibur would have out right killed them all. its more useful as a form of locomotion then any sort of attack or cc. Might as well call the damn thing rhino sprint. Rhino should charge THROUGH enemies, sending them tumbling in his wake. Not deflected off the side of the bridge as the hordes of chargers continue galloping over their 2 stunned allies.

 

I maxed radial blast. Triple or quadruple the damage and make it the 4th skill slot.

 

Replace rhino stomp. Expensive, useless unless your gonna run away. might as well use either radial blast or iron skin instead. Needs to be replaced.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Varo_Sanumai

[Ganpot]

I actually really liked that idea some guy had where IS still had 100% invulnerability BUT reduced the damage you dealt. This would let Rhino tank, but it wouldn't be mindless "press 2 because why not," but rather a tradeoff.

 

*Shameless Grin*  That was my idea (unless someone beat me to it >.>). 

 

 

What's the point in uproar when DE hasn't presented a solution yet. For now, I'd rather they focus on rebalancing rhino instead of redesigning a temporary IS. If its going to take more than a week though, something else might have to be done.

 

That's the thing though.  I'm not sure that DE ever said they would rebalance Rhino after the first Iron Skin nerf.  They just said they'd look him over again.  Which they did, when they nerfed Iron Skin again.  Has anyone seen a post from a DE staff member confirming that the new Iron Skin is temporary?  I was under the impression that this was supposed to be permanent. 

[HomeyCDawg]

Even the description is misleading. There is no such thing as invulnerability that can be shot off.

 

I say we stop calling it "Invulnerability to a max of 800 points" and just start calling it what it actually is; an invisible third healthbar with up to 800hp.

[Seanjuju]

*Shameless Grin*  That was my idea (unless someone beat me to it >.>). 

 

 

 

That's the thing though.  I'm not sure that DE ever said they would rebalance Rhino after the first Iron Skin nerf.  They just said they'd look him over again.  Which they did, when they nerfed Iron Skin again.  Has anyone seen a post from a DE staff member confirming that the new Iron Skin is temporary?  I was under the impression that this was supposed to be permanent. 

  

 

 

Our designer agreed a mistake was made Friday, has reviewed feedback. After testing and implementation, the new proposed system is considered to be working well. All posts that find this proposal unsatisfactory are being reviewed and noted. I urge you to add to these posts once you have tested the changes as well.

 

The feedback on switching his powers altogether, rebalancing everything else, is a long-term fix that cannot be made this week.

 

Short term goal: Get a fixed version of Iron Skin. At this point a complete revert to the original power is not planned.

Long term goal: Review Rhino as a whole, this whole situation has revealed problems players have with Rhino beyond just Iron Skin.

 

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

I'm actually surprised there wasn't another uproar over the new IS, because 800 damage seems to be really neglible at high levels, it's actually worse than the DR version, because with 80% DR you actually get 5x~1000=~5000 effective shields instead of ~1000+800=~1800 effective shields.

I actually really liked that idea some guy had where IS still had 100% invulnerability BUT reduced the damage you dealt. This would let Rhino tank, but it wouldn't be mindless "press 2 because why not," but rather a tradeoff.

the problem is that it's not 5000 effective shields with the first iron skin nerf, the maths might seem fair on paper but high rate of fire is the killer. A group of mid level grineer can take down both versions of the nerfed iron skin quickly because they are doing moderate damage at high speeds.

For example with the current IS if each bullet does 10 damage they only need to fire 80 bullets between them, considering the common grineer use machine guns and shotguns that's nothing.

If a mid level grineer does 20 damage to the previous nerfed version that's 250 bullets to take down 5000 shields, which seems a lot but this is where that rate of fire comes in to play again, we are talking a couple of seconds in a group of grineer.

[Balduron04]

 

Getting right into it...

 

The bad

-Snip-

The good

-Snip-

 

In summary, I like the change from the relatively more mindless old IS, where you hit the button and knew that nothing could harm you for the next X seconds, to a system where you're still capable of tanking, but you actually have to consider the situations you're getting into. However there could still stand to be some tweaking: Groups of high level enemies seem to tear through the damage cap with relative ease (Though I was able to solo high level stuff pretty well - again, I just had to be careful that I didn't get in over my head). 

 

As many people have explained quite well in previous threads and posts, scalability of the skill is the major issue. It's important to remember that achieving both scalability and balance for a tanking-type skill like Iron Skin will be tricky, though. As of now I believe the plan is to reevaluate Rhino's other three skills and then looking back at Iron Skin to see how it fits in, and I think that's a sound plan.

 

 

Feedback:

 

The good:

-I like his ability to regenerate shields now.

-I like that most of his immunities are back.

 

The bad:

-I dislike how Iron Skin seems to break randomly. I lost Iron Skin to 3 Level 20 Infested Chargers before the Shield Recharge kicked in.

-I dislike how Noxious Creepers and their ilk can barf all over the Rhino and make him dance like everyone else. I was very displeased.

-I dislike having an 800 damage cap that I can't see go down. An Icon to let me know when Iron Skin is up would help. Duration Timers on all sustained abilities would help. Things like Iron Skin, Contagion, Link, Overheat, Smokescreen, Invisibility, you know, those neat self buffs that you don't know when they will go down.

 

How I'd Fix It:

Complete Re-balance of the Rhino. Give him more than one Tanking Ability, and let those abilities have synergy. 800 Damage Shield + Taunt is neat, but having an 80% DR + CC Immunity would help it go a lot farther. Please give us more options, not less options. We might have to pop our taunt multiple times during our DR timer, but at least we could make it through till the next wave. Or the next Kill. Or the next 10 feet.

 

To everyone who thinks I want my God-Mode back:

 

Hell yes I do! I want to be a melee-ist in this game. I work very very hard with every other frame to run around, slide in, do my little spin, and prance away hoping I'm not dead yet. I picked up the Saryn cause she has a 60% melee damage amp, and I'm going to enjoy getting my 2 slides with Contagion Activated. I haven't yet as she's not quite as immune to CC as the Rhino is, but I'm working on that.

 

My God-Mode let me fully charge a swing in the middle of an infested crowd and keep me alive for the 2 or 3 swings it took to decimate the whole thing. For the rest of the time, it sat there and looked pretty. I could go anywhere at any time and not worry, cause I have Iron Skin to get me out of whatever I fell into. I miss that. Its an amazing feeling of power when you can do something other people can't. I want that feeling back with the Rhino, and I don't really care how they give it back either.

 

Ending Notes:

 

Every Frame does something Unique. No two frames are close enough to each other to be compared point for point. Every Frame has their spot where they can shine except for One. He's in the shop getting a tune-up, and when he gets back he's gonna Rock House again. Hopefully with a cool Melee Style.

[Ganpot]

Thanks for the direct quote Seanjuju.  Unfortunately, that post doesn't fill me with much confidence.  "Long term goals" are low priority stuff which have a habit of being pushed back in favor of more pressing matters until it's forgotten about.  And DE has already stated that balancing existing content is a lower priority for them than creating new content. 

 

That post also pretty much states that Rhino is not going to get invincibility back (which is what the majority of the posters seem to what, based on what I've read).  DE also seems to think that the new Iron Skin is really good except for a few minor issues (this might be due to the lack of outrage on the forums, because everyone is too busy complaining about Forma).  So I doubt they'll change anything significant for it, which means Rhino is going to keep sucking for the forseeable future. 

[shannerz]

Seriously guys what are you doing, do you even test his stuff before you send it live? Or maybe you should have a small test area for people who play the game or just founders (I'm not one but it would add value to the founders pack) to test future patch changes and provide feedback before you do?

I swear this has made it worse. Now the power spent is not even worth the return in later levels, you end up losing your shield in a second with high level enemies and its just not fun.

Anyone who has said that "oh this change means you play more skilfully or whatever", is wrong. There is an element of timing involved in fighting the AI in this game but by no means is it really that skilful, it's just about having a laugh obliterating things and in a PvE game balance isn't all that important. So they are saying this in order to validate themselves or the rhino they have spent a lot on and so need to justify its use.

I have said before that all you needed to do was keep it exactly the same and play with the duration to balance, make it a number 4 skill and move number 4 to 2 and do the same thing. Decent length to be worthwhile, not long enough to be game breaking. Simples.