New Iron Skin, Initial Feedback

[shannerz]

-I dislike having an 800 damage cap that I can't see go down. An Icon to let me know when Iron Skin is up would help. Duration Timers on all sustained abilities would help. Things like Iron Skin, Contagion, Link, Overheat, Smokescreen, Invisibility, you know, those neat self buffs that you don't know when they will go down.

How I'd Fix It:

Complete Re-balance of the Rhino. Give him more than one Tanking Ability, and let those abilities have synergy. 800 Damage Shield + Taunt is neat, but having an 80% DR + CC Immunity would help it go a lot farther. Please give us more options, not less options. We might have to pop our taunt multiple times during our DR timer, but at least we could make it through till the next wave. Or the next Kill. Or the next 10 feet.

To everyone who thinks I want my God-Mode back:

Hell yes I do! I want to be a melee-ist in this game. I work very very hard with every other frame to run around, slide in, do my little spin, and prance away hoping I'm not dead yet. I picked up the Saryn cause she has a 60% melee damage amp, and I'm going to enjoy getting my 2 slides with Contagion Activated. I haven't yet as she's not quite as immune to CC as the Rhino is, but I'm working on that.

My God-Mode let me fully charge a swing in the middle of an infested crowd and keep me alive for the 2 or 3 swings it took to decimate the whole thing. For the rest of the time, it sat there and looked pretty. I could go anywhere at any time and not worry, cause I have Iron Skin to get me out of whatever I fell into. I miss that. Its an amazing feeling of power when you can do something other people can't. I want that feeling back with the Rhino, and I don't really care how they give it back either.

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Totally agree with this. It was the first thing I thought of, that if they are going to give rhino a second shield, why the hell can't I see numbers and then make decisions accordingly, it's just going to be stand there until, oh wait, no it's gone and oh look I'm dead because I rely on it as my main form of survivability because I have to equip flow and streamline so that I can use my abilities more than once therefore not leaving me with a lot of mod space.

So I either equip tanks mods and don't get to use my powers much, not fun and not really effective. Or in the other hand I equip power efficiency mods making me less tanky and more reliant on an unreliable skill. Again, not fun. It needs the shield value upped with bart or visuals to show shield depletion or some code which can proportionally up the value of the shield by a percentage based on the level of enemies being faced.

Edited May 26, 2013 by shannerz

[Story4]

It just seems complete hypocrisy to nerf Rhino's Iron Skin just because he has invulnerability, but Invisibility and Link which give you invulnerability and increased damage are untouched.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Story4

[Otakuwolf]

"If it's not broke, don't break it"

Sadly the IS has been broken because some whiners complained "His frame is better than mine" or "is a brainless skill because you can just go in and slam everyone in the face" or resist to the most possible and imaginable attacks without a scratch, when that's actually what "TANKING" means.

 

To everyone, and i mean, everyone who wanted a nerf to this, let me ask you something: Did your character die when some godmode IS rhino was in ? Did your computer crash ? Did the game go nuts ? Did ANYTHING BAD happened when Rhino used his Godmode IS ?

 

No ? So what's the matter ? Because he makes more kills than your Excalibur does with a slash dash ? Because it can resist more than your Trinity/Loki/whatever other frame fully surrounded by enemies and smash theyr faces open like nothing ? Because you decided is a "noob brainless" skill ? Does this affect your gameplay in any possible way ? No ?

 

So really, what was the matter ? Was it necessary ? Because the players kept spamming it ?

 

If it's because of that, there are much easyer and lesser invasive ways to fix the thing and make it "less spammable" without breaking it.

 

I'm a Frost player myself and as you can imagine the entire team always rely on me to shield the cryopod in defence missions with the snowglobe, but guess what, even if it's a powerful defensive skill i can't spam it because i have 150 energy and the thing chews up 75 energy, this means that even if it's very handy i still have to pick up energy orbs to keep using it because i can't just spam it brainlessy on the objective (especially considering the cons of the skill), nor i can activate it anytime because i may risk to "waste" if if there are just a few handle of mobs instead of hordes of Corpus/Grineer, and i must stay on the look for the blue things to keep it fueled...

 

Maybe Rhino should be the same, why don't just make it more expensive ? Really, imo this hole mess could been fixed since the very beginning by simply making the skill more "energy wise expensive", so since it would cost more energy, the player can't just spam it around, must choose carefully when to activate it, and must keep refueling it if wants to keep using it. the aggro mechanic is nice though because ok, you're godmode, but everyone comes at you and... guess what happens when your IS runs out and you're surrounded by infesteds, EVEN if the IS was the original one with the aggro added i doubt you may get out alive once the skill time is over.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

That's a great point, invisibility makes you untargetable and gives you a damage boost, sure you can't face tank toxics but that's the only thing. Iron skin needs to go be the opposite, full aggro, invuln but no damage boost. The only balance it needs is 75 energy cost for 10 second duration and slowdown sprint speed or maybe even make you unable to sprint.

[Zonzai]

I've got over 4 million XP on my Rhino.  I've got over a quarter of my 200 hours on Rhino.  I don't clear rooms with buttons, I clear rooms with Scindos and Gorgon fire.  Also, you missed a question mark.

 

You certainly don't seem to have your Rhino Charge and Continuity maxed out, or you'd see just how far you can run with it.  Click it twice and you're over 50 yards away.  Most rooms in this game are less than 20 yards long.

 

I've main-tanked in multiple MMOs.  It's not a common shooter mechanic, but I am familiar with tanking systems.  Having something besides proximity determine aggro is a blessing to the team.  The very idea of a spammable Taunt giving 30%+ bonus Effective Life Time would be decried as broken good in a traditional MMO.

 

I've been playing my Polarized Rhino today and the only time I went down was to a level 61 alert Jackal's grenades.  No issues on anything else.  

 

I still think you're all whining because your utility power is now a utility power, not a god-mode button.  You can pop taunt and hide (le gasp) to draw fire from a teammate reviving another.  You can pull aggro from the pod.  You can protect your Rhino Stomp energy against ADs.  It's a different tool now, in that it is now a tool, not an "I win" button.  

 

How much health do you guys want from it?  1000? (it already is with Focus) 2000? 3463?  You guys are claiming the number's not high enough without determining how high you want the number to actually be.  The best suggestion I've seen is the application of Rhino's Armor DR to the IS.  That would allow savvy players to invest in Focus and Steel Fiber to pump "only" 800 up into ((1.3*800)/.241)=  4315 bonus health.  Would that be enough?  That's 140% total max life in there!  Would that satisfy everyone, or do you just want your brain-dead godmode back?

 

You're out of your mind.  If you're such an experienced rhino player you should know that rhino mostly just shoots things.  You can throw in a few rhino charges and stomps if you want but they aren't going to be very effective late in the game compared  to almost any other warframe's aoe capability.  Or did you farm mercury your entire career?  The point is, why give up everything good about being able to clear a room in a few seconds in exchange for a suicide button?

 

It doesn't save you in bad situations.  It doesn't let you tank.  It just gets you killed.

 

loki has better survivability with invis.  Ash has better survivability with radial blind.  Ember has better survivability with a great armor boost and nukes.  Volt has better survivability with a speed boost, shield and nukes.  Trinity... yeah.  You get the point yet?

Edited May 26, 2013 by Zonzai

[Cpl_Facehugger]

What are you doing where you're taking 1000 damage in 13 seconds?

Getting gunned down by Pluto corpus with their amazingly powerful pew pew lasers.

Seriously, 1000 damage isn't much in high level play.

[K1LLZ0NE]

Why do people keep calling (old) Iron Skin an "I win button"?  It was much less of an "I win button" than half of the other skills in the game.  Some people just don't seem to realize that Iron Skin didn't clear out a room at the touch of a button.  He still had to kill everything himself.  And honestly, 15 seconds to kill an entire room of enemies?  Not even remotely possible.  Unless you are using something like Sound Quake.

Edited May 26, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Phoenix86]

I think DE as a lot of hints by the community... they just have to pick em all together and update Rhino asap.

 

My full rework could be something like this:

 

Rhino Charge: ok skill, maybe just increase range to match Slash Dash.

Iron Skin: move to n°4, increase cost to 100, new functionality: DR 80% (increased by focus), immunity to all cc/poison/drains, duration 5-5-7-10 sec (increased by continuity)

Radial Blast: now ignores Armor (if you actually used it after U8 it deals some nice dmg but it's affected by armor!), instead of Knocking down targets it pushes them back. The more they are near to Rhino, the more they are pushed away.

Rhino Stomp: move to n°2, decrease cost to 50, shake the ground knocking down all targets in the area for 2-2-4-6 seconds.

[NalkorRN]

I think DE as a lot of hints by the community... they just have to pick em all together and update Rhino asap.

 

My full rework could be something like this:

 

Rhino Charge: ok skill, maybe just increase range to match Slash Dash.

Iron Skin: move to n°4, increase cost to 100, new functionality: DR 80% (increased by focus), immunity to all cc/poison/drains, duration 5-5-7-10 sec (increased by continuity)

Radial Blast: now ignores Armor (if you actually used it after U8 it deals some nice dmg but it's affected by armor!), instead of Knocking down targets it pushes them back. The more they are near to Rhino, the more they are pushed away.

Rhino Stomp: move to n°2, decrease cost to 50, shake the ground knocking down all targets in the area for 2-2-4-6 seconds.

The simplest way is to completely revert the changes and consider looking at why it was used so much when it was a god-mode button: It allowed you to safely revive other players, face-tanks those awful Ancient Disruptors, and actually survive on Pluto and Eris. Corpus are surprisingly deadly on Pluto, so Rhino moving as slow as he already does isn't going to save him, but slowing him down even further or unable to sprint (not your idea, saw it further up) would make it almost impossible to revive a fallen teammate while IS is active.

Soundquake got nerfed because of how deadly it was but guess what? Saryn's Ultimate just straight up insta-kills anything not a boss or heavy unit (I think) with the press of a button. Sure the aoe is smaller, but it's insta-cast. So Rhino and Banshee players are miffed at Trinity and Saryn being at least ten times better at doing their (Rhino/Banshee's) main thing.

[Phoenix86]

The simplest way is to completely revert the changes and consider looking at why it was used so much when it was a god-mode button: It allowed you to safely revive other players, face-tanks those awful Ancient Disruptors, and actually survive on Pluto and Eris. Corpus are surprisingly deadly on Pluto, so Rhino moving as slow as he already does isn't going to save him, but slowing him down even further or unable to sprint (not your idea, saw it further up) would make it almost impossible to revive a fallen teammate while IS is active.

Soundquake got nerfed because of how deadly it was but guess what? Saryn's Ultimate just straight up insta-kills anything not a boss or heavy unit (I think) with the press of a button. Sure the aoe is smaller, but it's insta-cast. So Rhino and Banshee players are miffed at Trinity and Saryn being at least ten times better at doing their (Rhino/Banshee's) main thing.

 

Devs have stated they wont revert to original nor now nor later, so better start giving "new" ideas

[Keyza]

I think DE as a lot of hints by the community... they just have to pick em all together and update Rhino asap.

 

My full rework could be something like this:

 

Rhino Charge: ok skill, maybe just increase range to match Slash Dash.

Iron Skin: move to n°4, increase cost to 100, new functionality: DR 80% (increased by focus), immunity to all cc/poison/drains, duration 5-5-7-10 sec (increased by continuity)

Radial Blast: now ignores Armor (if you actually used it after U8 it deals some nice dmg but it's affected by armor!), instead of Knocking down targets it pushes them back. The more they are near to Rhino, the more they are pushed away.

Rhino Stomp: move to n°2, decrease cost to 50, shake the ground knocking down all targets in the area for 2-2-4-6 seconds.

 

Interesting idea, the only problem I have with the proposal is Radial Blast. I feel that knocking them away poses as a disadvantage to Rhino. One of the plus' of Radial Blast at the moment is that they all fall down, giving you easy access to charge swinging one's Scindo and taking out a few guys.

 

One scenario I can see this being effective is knocking away ancients, toxic and the like as well as other melee enemies. Otherwise, we'd still have to waddle to our way to the enemies and may be troublesome if they were ranged.

 

Though I do like the new proposal of Iron Skin, in one of my previous threads I have recommended something similar. My solution to Radial Blast/Rhino Stomp was to combine them as they are and leaving it as No. 3, and perhaps add an aggro mechanic for No. 2.

[Phoenix86]

Interesting idea, the only problem I have with the proposal is Radial Blast. I feel that knocking them away poses as a disadvantage to Rhino. One of the plus' of Radial Blast at the moment is that they all fall down, giving you easy access to charge swinging one's Scindo and taking out a few guys.

 

One scenario I can see this being effective is knocking away ancients, toxic and the like as well as other melee enemies. Otherwise, we'd still have to waddle to our way to the enemies and may be troublesome if they were ranged.

 

Though I do like the new proposal of Iron Skin, in one of my previous threads I have recommended something similar. My solution to Radial Blast/Rhino Stomp was to combine them as they are and leaving it as No. 3, and perhaps add an aggro mechanic for No. 2.

 

Mixing both in 1 skill could be nice, i just dont know if DE will be able to do it.

Well that's why "i moved" Stomp to #2 with only 50 cost, Radial Blast will serve a function like "get away from my downed friend/cryopod" while Stomp will have the function to knock them down and kill them with meele as you said.

 

Yes combining both and make a whole new skill it's surely better on the other side, but maybe is "just asking too much"

[Keyza]

Mixing both in 1 skill could be nice, i just dont know if DE will be able to do it.

Well that's why "i moved" Stomp to #2 with only 50 cost, Radial Blast will serve a function like "get away from my downed friend/cryopod" while Stomp will have the function to knock them down and kill them with meele as you said.

 

Yes combining both and make a whole new skill it's surely better on the other side, but maybe is "just asking too much"

 

I see, based on your scenario's I can see how it could work.

 

Either way both skills in it's current state seems too similar, I guess a simple way of combining it would be to simply increase the damage of Rhino Stomp to match Radial Blast as of the recent update - should suffice.

 

I find the Iron Skin + the aggro mechanic in it's current condition maybe dangerous to use at higher levels, especially when trying to revive downed teammates. Effectively killing yourself and crowding the downed member with enemies, essentially making it more difficult for any other player to res them.

 

Which is why I suggested separating the aggro mechanic from Iron Skin. My initial idea was that the aggro skill: "Warcry", would trigger the aggro mechanic and perhaps give a melee buff to Rhino himself and nearby team mates. Allowing Rhino to deal with the increase threat more effectively while giving nearby team mates who was being mauled a second ago, a fighting chance - also promotes team work.

 

But some has suggested that a melee buff may not be sufficient when say, the enemies are ranged.

[Gungrave_8]

I don't like it. Damage cap is not enough, flat and simple. That's it.
Either remove it or up it. Why? Because it's useless in high DF waves. I activated it, got to my clan mate, healed him, iron skin bursts, next thing I know, I'm on the ground, right where he was, surrounded by gazillion freaks. It was embarrassing, and worst of all it was of no help.
I cannot understand DE, why you fail to make a proper tank warframe? Other then rhino charge and iron skin, the last two are completely useless, energy - waste skills, and I dumped them in favor of more mods that will benefit my, YOU KNOW, tank role.
I'm sure you will never redesign his skills, or make up new. So for the respect of my fellow warframe players, I'll share my thoughts.
 

1st - Make Iron Skin, god mode again. Why? Because Ash and Loki already have god mode ( I agree with the guy, few posts above me), you know invisibility. Practically immortal, and can kick &#! too.

 

2nd - When Iron Skin activates, show the radius of taunting, like aura pulse in a small or large radius, depends on the skill level.
 

3d - Up the damage cap or remove it, because basically now it's a plane and simple suicide button in upper levels, which render's it useless.

Skills:
Like one guy in the forums said, combine Rhino Stomp and Radial blast. Remove the slow - mo, and make it high damage skill for the minions and stun plus less damage for the big ones.

 

Ultimate skill:

Unforgiving: Rhino shouts (or makes some kind of gesture) and enemies run in fear. Each affected will have 0 armor, and he will be unable to attack.
Radius is small, so you godda be swarmed up.

Alternative for stomp and radial blast:
Leap - Rhino jumps and deals x% damage(based on the weapon he's equipped with.) on a single target, and knocks others around him.

 

 

 

 

But in the end of the day it won't change anything now, would it.....

Edited May 27, 2013 by Gungrave_8

[Phoenix86]

A leap attack could be awesome, but we already can do it by jumping + meele attack, better think about something different

[Gungrave_8]

No.
Think of it like the Leap Attack of the barbarian from Diablo. What we can do is... not even a leap, more like small jumps.

[Phoenix86]

mmh... i still think that it would overlap...

 

Yes i know it (played Diablo 2/3 many years, not the 3rd lol), remember that there's Excalibur Super Jump too... that skill would become even more useless if they implement such a skill... i'd rather make a skill like seismic slam! a directional shockwave cone that KD's stuff in the path

[NalkorRN]

Devs have stated they wont revert to original nor now nor later, so better start giving "new" ideas

Then they better overhaul Rhino entirely because IS in god-mode was the only skill worth using because surprise surprise, the other three were very lackluster and still are. Not just by comparison, but in general. After seeing all the new stuff come up in the last few patches, I'm actually afraid of DE even hinting at balancing or re-working anything. The 800 damage cap, as much as it sucks, would probably be better than what they crap out next.

I swear, it's like ever since The Glaive was released, the thought that they can run off nostalgia alone and nothing else has somehow entered their heads.

I refuse to give them any ideas for Iron Skin because I know that they'll screw it up somehow. Look at Trinity, have they even hinted at wanting to change Energy Link+Vampire? There's a reason a bunch of Rhino players mention her in discussions about Rhino.

[Gungrave_8]

mmh... i still think that it would overlap...

 

Yes i know it (played Diablo 2/3 many years, not the 3rd lol), remember that there's Excalibur Super Jump too... that skill would become even more useless if they implement such a skill... i'd rather make a skill like seismic slam! a directional shockwave cone that KD's stuff in the path

Yes, that could be awesome too. However Sonic Boom looks a lot like shock wave. But seismic slam with a giant sword would be cool. I don't think DE will change anything. So I'll play for now. Until I get bored that is.

Excalibur's leap is useless, unless you want to do parkour around the levels or tease the others with "hey, look where I can go and you can't" jump.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Gungrave_8

[Keyza]

Yes, that could be awesome too. However Sonic Boom looks a lot like shock wave. But seismic slam with a giant sword would be cool. I don't think DE will change anything. So I'll play for now. Until I get bored that is.

Excalibur's leap is useless, unless you want to do parkour around the levels or tease the others with "hey, look where I can go and you can't" jump.

Haha One of the only reasons why one would use Super Jump, although it would be Interesting if the physics mechanic allows it to perform a heavier jump attack from the height gained.

[SteelSoldier]

The damage reduction was clearly better, if you have for example 600 shield capacity and then you would use iron armor, you would have the equivalent of 3000 shield capacity

 

Honestly I would bring the damage reduction back, or better yet make it a skill that refills half of your shield and adds resistance on top of it, after the effect ends all the damage done to you will be done in portion back to the enemy in radius where you are standing.

This would emphasize tanking more and rewards you for taking more damage.

Edited May 27, 2013 by SteelSoldier

[K1LLZ0NE]

Devs have stated they wont revert to original nor now nor later, so better start giving "new" ideas

 

Where have you seen this?  All I have seen is that they said they would not undo the nerf.  Going back to the original functionality but increasing cost/ decreasing duration, is not "reverting to original".

[Phoenix86]

In a post in the 19th hotfeedback topic, i dont remember exactly at what page honestly, u can find it there

[K1LLZ0NE]

In a post in the 19th hotfeedback topic, i dont remember exactly at what page honestly, u can find it there

 

I've seen that post.  All they said is that they would not undo the nerf.  Not that they wouldn't return Iron Skin's time limited invulnerability. 

[S.W.O.R.D.]

Rhino needs powerfull protection. No need in damage buff, or you want to make all classes the same, exept looks?

 

If not original IS (what was the best for Rhino balance), then 90% dmg reduction + stun/knock/toxic/stagger immunity. Same duration, same cost. Maybe a full shield restore on use, on top of that.