The Problem With Small Clans

[Tetsmeha]

Not everyone WANTS a bazillion "friends."  For many of us, beyond a certain number of people your interactions become spread so thin than most of them would become acquaintances at best.  It's fine if you don't feel this way--no one's calling for the downfall of large clans--but many of us don't want this.  I really don't understand your hostility, all we want is a fair chance at the clan-exclusive content without having to disband or dilute our small circles of friends.

 

Sorry if I came off as brash or hostile, but a lot of suggestions for small clans gimps larger ones.

The biggest factor in getting the dojo content would be resources and time. Big clans have tons of resources, and thus use less time. Time isn't even really an issue because those resource costs exist to inflate wait time. It's just like how some people have to farm mats, and farm warframe parts. But some people can buy it, because time is the biggest limiting factor and plat exists to shorten it just like dojos.

[Tetsmeha]

What the OP stated and keeps poorly defending is that not only should we not focus on those things, but that we also don't deserve them because we choose not to conform to large organizations.

 

Why are you still stuck on the idea that large clans are filled with dictators and drones?

You can make a small clan grow by making more friends. You know, because friends aren't strangers?

 

[Ageless_Emperion]

Why are you still stuck on the idea that large clans are filled with dictators and drones?

You can make a small clan grow by making more friends. You know, because friends aren't strangers?

 

 

A. Because its a fact of real life and video games. Communities of such magnitude can in principle form friendships and core groups where people know each other, but it is far more likely that they don't. Its a F...A...C...T, I am not just making stuff of the top of my head.

 

B. Because you said something entirely stupid and people called you out on it.

 

C. If your definition of a friend is that of a person that has been playing in the same space as you for months and has never directly interacted with you other than walking by you in the clan hall then sure.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Ageless_Emperion

[zorinho20]

Why are you still stuck on the idea that large clans are filled with dictators and drones?

You can make a small clan grow by making more friends. You know, because friends aren't strangers?

 

Maybe I´m wrong,but talking from my experience,the more people is involved in something,rules have to be more strict,just for easier control.

[Gemini_Jenvas]

lets find the largest clan and all join it, all players. It will spit out weapon BPs so fast, its gonna be glorious!

Why wouldnt everyone want that?

Do you even need to invest mats and samples to get that stuff?

Edited May 24, 2013 by Jenvas1306

[krisp]

I don't think the issue is big clans vs small clans. Rather, the issue consists of the following: why is mindless mass recruitment inherently more efficient at building a clan-specific structure than specialized, selective recruitment?

 

It's backwards. If you want to get the pinnacle of endgame group content in any MMO, you make a clan that selectively recruits the best of the best, forming one or two teams that tackle said content. That is always the best course of action, with mass recruitment being for the people who still want some content but don't have the time and commitment to improve their skills. So if you want competitive content fast, what you don't do by any means is become the Queen of Blades, leader of the Zerg Swarm.

 

On that note, can people please stop fighting with themselves over what size is better for a clan since it's pointless and all you're doing is throwing S#&$ at eachother for no good reason.

[Tetsmeha]

A. Because its a fact of real life and video games. Communities of such magnitude can in principle form friendships and core groups where people know each other, but it is far more likely that they don't. Its a F...A...C...T, I am not just making stuff of the top of my head.

 

B. Because you said something entirely stupid and people called you out on it.

 

C. If your definition of a friend is that of a person that has been playing in the same space as you for months and has never directly interacted with you other than walking by you in the clan hall then sure.

 

A. You state that large communities can create bonds despite their numbers, and then retract that statement to drive the point that it's a fact that it cannot. But there is evidence in real life such as churches where 80+ people can know and form bonds with almost every single member. Youth groups, schools, even work places.

 

B. People called me out, but it wasn't because it was stupid it was because I made a brash statement and people got mad. Small circles of friends can create a guild and invest into it. There isn't a chain of command between them, they will just naturally invest into the clan because it benefits both them and their friends. It's a group effort in which they've invested their time with others to form bonds until their circle grew. My statement about investing in recruiting is no different besides the motivation one might have behind it.

 

C. So you made your clan with people you don't even play with?

[Ageless_Emperion]

I don't think the issue is big clans vs small clans. Rather, the issue consists of the following: why is mindless mass recruitment inherently more efficient at building a clan-specific structure than specialized, selective recruitment?

 

It's backwards. If you want to get the pinnacle of endgame group content in any MMO, you make a clan that selectively recruits the best of the best, forming one or two teams that tackle said content. That is always the best course of action, with mass recruitment being for the people who still want some content but don't have the time and commitment to improve their skills. So if you want competitive content fast, what you don't do by any means is become the Queen of Blades, leader of the Zerg Swarm.

 

On that note, can people please stop fighting with themselves over what size is better for a clan since it's pointless and all you're doing is throwing S#&$ at eachother for no good reason.

 

I find your logical argument to be acceptable. That is the problem when you boil it down.

[Ageless_Emperion]

A. You state that large communities can create bonds despite their numbers, and then retract that statement to drive the point that it's a fact that it cannot. But there is evidence in real life such as churches where 80+ people can know and form bonds with almost every single member. Youth groups, schools, even work places.

 

B. People called me out, but it wasn't because it was stupid it was because I made a brash statement and people got mad. Small circles of friends can create a guild and invest into it. There isn't a chain of command between them, they will just naturally invest into the clan because it benefits both them and their friends. It's a group effort in which they've invested their time with others to form bonds until their circle grew. My statement about investing in recruiting is no different besides the motivation one might have behind it.

 

C. So you made your clan with people you don't even play with?

 

A. Individual cases that serve to disprove rather than support the argument.

 

B. Stupid and brash are very close together you know, it is the reason why your statement irritated me at first.

 

C. No, I made it with people I play with often, I made fun of how "cheap" you definition of a friend is.

 

Anyways a nice voice has spoken, lets take this discussion along those line shall we?

[Tetsmeha]

I don't think the issue is big clans vs small clans. Rather, the issue consists of the following: why is mindless mass recruitment inherently more efficient at building a clan-specific structure than specialized, selective recruitment?

 

It's backwards. If you want to get the pinnacle of endgame group content in any MMO, you make a clan that selectively recruits the best of the best, forming one or two teams that tackle said content. That is always the best course of action, with mass recruitment being for the people who still want some content but don't have the time and commitment to improve their skills. So if you want competitive content fast, what you don't do by any means is become the Queen of Blades, leader of the Zerg Swarm.

 

On that note, can people please stop fighting with themselves over what size is better for a clan since it's pointless and all you're doing is throwing S#&$ at eachother for no good reason.

 

A good summery of dojo problems since the patch. But the problem with mass recruiting is that fresh recruits have no incentive to donate anything towards the guild. I'm not sure if anyone realizes it, but some clan leaders can recruit people right now with the incentive to reach the new content, and kick everybody out once the essentials for the guild hall are built. In the end it's still about recruiting people you can trust because you know they will invest in the guild, making them a valuable friend and asset.

[Tetsmeha]

C. No, I made it with people I play with often, I made fun of how "cheap" you definition of a friend is.

 

Except I defined a friend as someone who isn't a stranger. That's in no way cheap just because it isn't well defined.

[Ageless_Emperion]

Just a thought, but making friends =/= making assets. People are not tools, any thought process along those lines deserves to be squashed.

 

What bothers me is that a group of say 50 people all need to contribute 1/50 of the cost and in most cases even less and say 150 others that have done nothing to earn that get the benifit while 10 people have to slave away at the same goals for longer periods even though they may be better and more focused on them.

[Maully]

Except I defined a friend as someone who isn't a stranger. That's in no way cheap just because it isn't well defined.

 

Yes it is. 

[Zhoyzu]

by increasing materials needed based on clan size makes it better. 

1 small clans arent penalized

2 large clans dont just cake walk through it

3 prevents it from becoming a dead content for ppl in large clans that got everything within the first week

[Tetsmeha]

Just a thought, but making friends =/= making assets. People are not tools, any thought process along those lines deserves to be squashed.

 

What bothers me is that a group of say 50 people all need to contribute 1/50 of the cost and in most cases even less and say 150 others that have done nothing to earn that get the benifit while 10 people have to slave away at the same goals for longer periods even though they may be better and more focused on them.

 

Assets are also defined as a desirable thing or quality. I mean it was pretty brash of me to say new recruits are human capital but if the first thought about friends as assets were tools...lol

[Benisato]

Anyone who complains that small clans are S.O.L on the Dojo is just flat out wrong. Those complaints come from the same self entitled people who *@##$ that its "unfair" that they have to pay to get things faster in the game. My clan has 3 people, has never had more than 3 people, and will probably never have more than 3 people. Yet our Dojo already has 2 rooms under construction, and it will have more as soon as those are complete. If you want the cool stuff that comes with having a Dojo, put in the time to get it. If you don't have the time to get it, don't *@##$ about it when I get it before you because I invested more time / money than you did.

 

At the end of the day, it takes exactly the same amount of time and effort for a 100 person clan to build a Dojo as it does for a 1 person clan, its just a matter of spreading the time and effort over more people. So you can either do it yourself, or get help, but the time you spend sitting on this forum *@##$ing about it, is time wasted NOT getting what you want in an effort to get what you want without working for it.

[Ageless_Emperion]

Anyone who complains that small clans are S.O.L on the Dojo is just flat out wrong. Those complaints come from the same self entitled people who $#*(@ that its "unfair" that they have to pay to get things faster in the game. My clan has 3 people, has never had more than 3 people, and will probably never have more than 3 people. Yet our Dojo already has 2 rooms under construction, and it will have more as soon as those are complete. If you want the cool stuff that comes with having a Dojo, put in the time to get it. If you don't have the time to get it, don't $#*(@ about it when I get it before you because I invested more time / money than you did.

 

At the end of the day, it takes exactly the same amount of time and effort for a 100 person clan to build a Dojo as it does for a 1 person clan, its just a matter of spreading the time and effort over more people. So you can either do it yourself, or get help, but the time you spend sitting on this forum *@##$ing about it, is time wasted NOT getting what you want in an effort to get what you want without working for it.

 

Lul what? It takes the same amount of effort for 100 people to collect 1000 resources each as it would take 1 person to collect 100,000 resources? Math please?

 

You know no one says make it cheap, we want it to be REASONABLE. Hell I have been playing for almost two months and me and my clan don't have enough to even build a hallway, I dropped 150,000 assorted resources on the project and its simply not enough. To get anything out of it we need a reactor and research space. We of course plan to work for it, no one is asking for an easy pass. We just want our efforts to have a more visible impact on the space we are working on.

 

P.S. We don't have mountains of resources because we build a lot of equipment. Well we used to, now its all pooled into this system.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Ageless_Emperion

[Corodix]

Why can't there be multiple versions of each room? The most expensive one could be the current one, then have another that's only 10% of the cost but looks like a rusty old room and then have something in between for average sized clans.

 

Of course making the assets would take a while, but for now a quick fix could be to use the existing assets for all three types and then change them in the future.

 

This way most of the resources go towards making the dojo look better, thus showing off your wealth, etc. But small clans don't lose out on functionality compared to big clans.

[Dat_Krawg]

If you noticed they said that there were almost 30 new weapons released, almost half of those are dojo only and they are quite interesting ones at that. I don't mind grinding mats with my friends but the forma gating and the rediculous resource reqs means that it will take us months of sinking resources into the clan before we get any results while it will literally take others days before they will see results. That's an insane difference.

this i can agree on now i run a small clan with my friends we number only about 12 and we are always together in almost every game we honestly dont mind that we have to grind for out rooms even if its a ludicrous amount but the fact that there are these unique weapons which since they requier an advanced dojo we are likely to never see it makes me sad.

 

now the op has been stateing  cool add new people to your clan and make friends that way but where a close knit group and dont feel the need to throw in a whole group of random people just so we can see what these magic weapons are 

[BETAOPTICS]

I don't get why in these forums it seems to be commonplace assumption that most if not all clans will force you to adapt to a schedule and are seemingly run by some sort of power trippy dictator.

 

I mean, you may very well be talking about big clans only, it still applies, I don't know what this assumption has its basis on.

 

Our clan at the moment has a whooping 10 members, we don't force anyone to do anything, they can play whenever, however, and in whatever way they wish to.

 

Clans I've ran in other games, which have gotten pretty massive (200+ people) went by the same philosophy, you join, and you play the game in whatever way you see fit, so long that way is not "griefing any and all things that show up in my path".

 

And I believe a good number of clans are in the same line, where the only rule is "don't be a prick".

 

I do, however, agree with the motion that if there's a way that small to mid-sized clans may get their own dojo spar-room/weapons lab easier it should probably be applied; and I woudn't be suprised if such rework was to be here before next week.

Yeah, ever thought you would rather be in charge by yourself or let your good friend take the charge and none of you wants randoms there, never crossed the mind? Well what it differs from a random in charge? Many things might happen, for example you might not agree with the clan on certain things. You might not like X and Y build before Z or Q. On top of that some people, apparently very many on this game, like to hang out with friends or not as many people in the clan. People are used to different amount of population, some like many people (+200), some like to keep their friends close and everyone out for this hang out and have fun feeling. Sometimes so many people at the same place can feel overwhelming, distressing even and that is why those people tend to prefer smaller communities.

This is sometimes the case in popular RPG where there is this really popular city that offers valuable stuff and then there are hundreds or thousands of people there, I don't want that. No place of privacy to talk about what matters to me and my friends and no place to hang out with my friends without having to worry about that whatever we talk about does not fade in the massive comment feed of +200 people talking at the same time. To me Dojo is more like an apartment for me and my friends, a place where we can hang out and enjoy privacy and good times, not some public place like they are in big clans because no one, absolutely no one has +200 friends, that is just absurd to think that.

[BETAOPTICS]

Anyone who complains that small clans are S.O.L on the Dojo is just flat out wrong. Those complaints come from the same self entitled people who $#*(@ that its "unfair" that they have to pay to get things faster in the game. My clan has 3 people, has never had more than 3 people, and will probably never have more than 3 people. Yet our Dojo already has 2 rooms under construction, and it will have more as soon as those are complete. If you want the cool stuff that comes with having a Dojo, put in the time to get it. If you don't have the time to get it, don't $#*(@ about it when I get it before you because I invested more time / money than you did.

 

At the end of the day, it takes exactly the same amount of time and effort for a 100 person clan to build a Dojo as it does for a 1 person clan, its just a matter of spreading the time and effort over more people. So you can either do it yourself, or get help, but the time you spend sitting on this forum *@##$ing about it, is time wasted NOT getting what you want in an effort to get what you want without working for it.

 

OK where to start. Generalization sucks and everybody knows it is some of the poorest argument types one can say, it really is.

So I have never complained about having to pay for shortcuts, I'm the one who wants them after all, my money, my decision, no one else. Now imagine this, you have 3 friends and yourself in a clan. You have still stuff to build for yourself as well, then the 3 friends you have, yeah they serve army in the weeks and thus can not be online during weeks, sometimes even weekends. Now if I compare one mans work to 100 or 200 mans work. Guess which one will be faster? So have am I able to compete with that when there is no balancing in the required parts at all.

Of course you could always ask why I don't want to join those clans if the items or time means so much to me. Well answer me this, why aren't I allowed to play this game the way I want with the people I want to play with? It does not matter what side you look it from because it is impossible to give reasons that can be considered true reasons, after all this is a game, I pay part of their living, thus I should be allowed to influence and have an opinion on things I like to be changed a bit. Their job is either to ignore and get worse reputation than they now have or then do something and get better reputation than they now have. DE's choice, which is better?

Edited May 24, 2013 by BETAOPTICS

[BETAOPTICS]

Why can't there be multiple versions of each room? The most expensive one could be the current one, then have another that's only 10% of the cost but looks like a rusty old room and then have something in between for average sized clans.

 

Of course making the assets would take a while, but for now a quick fix could be to use the existing assets for all three types and then change them in the future.

 

This way most of the resources go towards making the dojo look better, thus showing off your wealth, etc. But small clans don't lose out on functionality compared to big clans.

This ^

[ArsVampyre]

Ever since the dojo update in U8, plenty of threads complain about small clans not being able to obtain the new content in a feasible amount of time. Many reasons are thrown around such as not wanted to be in a big clan, wanting the clan to be friends only, or not wanting to be in a clan at all.

 

It's obvious that the dojo has a big emphasis on big clans with loads of materials, and we all know materials come from players to play a lot. But it's unfair to complain to DE about it when those people in small clans don't want to invest in other people.

 

Recruiting to get a big guild is literally farming for human capital. If you don't want players with materials in your clan because you don't want a big clan, that's your fault. Bigger clans will just scoop them up and invest in them and hope they invest their materials back.

 

Also, scaling up costs for bigger clans has got to be the dumbest idea i've ever heard. Sometimes you people just don't understand the concept of a guild or the investment people will put into it.

I'm with you until DE locks 90% of the U8 content, and some pre-U8 content like Snipetron, behind Dojo Research and the like. I shouldn't have to be in a big clan to get access to that content, but evidently I do. Why? Because big clans will encourage people to spend big money in small increments on things like Forma and dojo building rushing. Things small clans and individuals won't do.

I'm not going to spend $30 on buying enough forma to build a single dojo room. And farming it is likely an exercise in futility; the RNG is so crappy that I'll likely have every frame and weapon at 30 before I get enough forma to make one room.

My clan is small, less than 10 members. We're pretty active. I'd be willing to buy rooms outright for some platinum. I'm willing to contribute even a couple of hundred platinum, but not to build a single hallway.

Glaive was the first step toward pay to win. Then Voubon. Now Dojo and it's locked content, and void keys, and 90% of update 8 is behind a paywall. Buy the keys, buy the forma, or get left behind. Oh, and we're going to start nerfing all the old stuff so you can't compete. Bye bye Banshee! Bye bye Rhino! Buy buy Voubon!

Yes, the word choice is intentional.

[Taisho207]

cyrus106, on 24 May 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

....so what I've come to understand, is you're saying "Screw you, your playstyle, your refusal to join a clan of strangers, and all small clans, just because they want a fair chance at the same features as someone else without joining huge clans"

Yeah, screw you too bud.

Thank you.

[cyrus106]

Thank you.

*bows regally* 

Hopefully, all players can get a fair whack at this new Dojo stuff soon