Where Parkour 2.0 Succeeds, And Where It Fails... An Opinion Piece

[Caine2112]

TL;DR at the bottom.

 

Good morning, afternoon, evening, Tenno (wherever you may reside).  :)

 

First, I'd like to thank DE for their hard work and their dedication to making an enjoyable game.  I've logged 600 hours or so as of this post in the last 7 weeks, and am having a great time playing my space ninja game.

 

Before I go into where Parkour 2,0 succeeds and fails, readers please keep in mind that I've only played this game for the past 7 weeks.  As a player in my early 40s years of age, I have always played FPS in the style of Splinter Cell; through slow methodical stealth approaches and the like.  Although I saw other players use coptering and all other manner of zipping through levels, it just wasn't my playstyle.  That said, I can easily understand and appreciate you veteran players going through cotpering withdrawal right now.  Sure it was an excellent method of traversing the game space quickly, but I also agree with DE's stance that melee attacks should never have had replaced actual movement mechanics.

 

Please keep in mind everything I write below is my opinion only.  Others may or may not share my opinion, and that's fine.  But let's keep the discussion constructive.

 

Onto the matter at hand:

 

Where Parkour 2.0 Succeeds

 

1.  Double Jump

This is definitely a much appreciated maneuver that I enjoy.  I have been using this for the past 3 days (as of this post) and I find myself clearing spaces and impediments with ease.  Not much else needs to be said.  Excellent idea and implementation.  Extremely simple to use.

 

2.  Bullet Jump

I like this.  I find myself being able to reach high places or traverse long distances horizontally with ease.  Now, I do kinda miss the old Slide+Jump mechanic that would somersault you forwards in a front flip.  That animation just seems a bit more cool than the aerial torpedo animation we have now, but I'm ok with it in its current implementation.  If DE were to bring back the old one for long distance horizontal jumps, I'd be all for it.  I can live with this new one.  When used vertically, the aerial torpedo animation makes sense.  When used horizontally, well, it's ok.

 

3.  Aim Glide

At first, it was a bit cumbersome, but after using it over and over, I've grown to like this.  On some tilesets (especially Orokin tilesets), I have actually been able to jump off of a high platform, Aim Glide, charge up my Opticor and pull off a headshot completely vaporizing the head of an enemy clean off... and then land.  

 

Epic. Level. Coolness.

 

It also allows you to do some Bullet Jump + Double Jump + Air Glide combos that allows you to traverse great distances and control where you land (more or less).  Takes practice, but I seem to have gotten the hang of this already.

 

4.  Zip Lines

Walking ON zip lines is very cool.  The added bonus that you can stop your movement, take your shots, and keep going is a huge benefit.  The other added bonus that you can jump to another zip line is also very cool, allowing you to reposition or evade enemies.  Even more cool is that said enemies who are using the zip line and pass underneath you. You can just shoot them as they pass by and watch their corpses fall into that deep dark pit.  In a word, Awesome!

 

The big problem I have seen though, is that there are a lot of zip lines that run right under ceilings or objects, and you either get stuck, or you can't even get on those zip lines.  Case in point is that particular Grineer tileset that has 2 zip lines running on either side to the evacuation point where your Liset is waiting for you.  You have no choice now to use Bullet Jump to cross the chasm.  A lot of the zip lines need to be looked at and modified to hang lower OR move impeding objects higher to clear the way.  Wouldn't hurt either if you guys added a whole bunch of them in multiple tilesets to add more ninja possibilities.  I mean, imagine having to cross a chasm using multiple zip lines.  :)

 

Also noticed that Carrier will suck up loot, but you don't actually pick it up until you land on the ground somewhere.  It just all floats above your head.

 

5.  No more auto-rolling while landing from any height

 

This is excellent.  I really love how you now simply land on your feet where you land.  And I love even more that if you do want to roll, you just hit your roll key.  This was a great change.

 

 

Where Parkour 2.0 Fails

 

1.  Wall Dash Horizontal (bunny hopping)

 

This fails spectacularly.  I seriously do not know who in your staff thought this was a good idea, but they seriously need to shake their head in shame.  The animation is utterly stupid.  It feels incredibly cumbersome to use.   And worst of all, IT. JUST. DOESN'T. WORK.

 

Where do I start?  

 

First of all, the massive issue I have with this is that you CANNOT look away from the wall while doing a Wall Dash like you could before with Wall Run.  Because if you do, you jump off of the wall and fall to ground or to your death.  Go ahead and try to do so in the Testing Grounds.  You'll see what I mean.  The ONLY time this can work, jumping from one vertical surface to another, is if they are very close to one another, like in the Testing Grounds.  But honestly, how often does that happen?

 

Second, if you have the misfortune of the hopping animation hitting a curved surface in the wall along your path, say a jutting rock or and angled bit of wall (many Grineer tilesets are like this), the hop mechanic won't continue your movement around said surface, but jump off of it, making you fall into whatever pit is below you.  With the old Wall Run, you would seemlessly run around said curved surface with no issues whatsoever.  The only issue was vaulting at the end, but you guys fixed that.

 

Third, you really have zero control of your character.  You basically are at the mercy of the hopping mechanic, and try as you might to steer your character left, right, up or down or along a horizontal axis, the hopping will always manage to find an edge somewhere to make you fall to the ground (or a pit).  The tutorial for Wall Dashing telling you to hold your left or right direction keys is utter crap.  In order to use said keys, you have to FACE the wall, which means you can't see at all where you are going.  If you can't see where you're going, then what's the point of directional movement??

 

And Fourth, have you guys noticed that you don't Wall Dash in a straight horizontal line along a vertical surface?  Did you notice you actually climb a good 5 to 10 degrees with every hop?  Imagine my surprise when I kept hopping off of certain Orokin walls with a ledge.  Whenever I would hit that ledge, instead of climbing onto said ledge, the system would just make me drop like a rock to the ground below because there was no longer a surface to hop on.  Try it out on the Testing Ground.  You'll see what I mean.

 

Again, I reiterate.  Whoever came up with this part of Parkour 2.0 needs to go back to the drawing board and SERIOUSLY rethink the entire concept.  And feel free to look at my proposals to fix this below.

 

2.  Wall Dash Up

 

Again, very clumsy mechanic that has hampered and hindered more than helped scaling up walls.  Sure, unlike the previous mechanic where you could only run up a wall so high, this one allows you to keep going until you hit the top. However, instead of reaching the ledge and doing a front flip to get on top, half the time you hit the ledge with a jump and the game decides whether you jump onto the ledge, or vault far away from the wall.  Again, you're at the mercy of the mechanic.  Not only that, but there are a plethora of places on various tilesets that you could backflip onto.  Can't do that anymore, and it becomes a cumbersome chore to try to reach those places now.

 

See my proposal to fix this below.

 

3.  Wall Latch

 

This is the new mechanic I had such HIGH hopes for, and was eagerly anticipating.  The concept is cool in thought and mechanic, but very poorly implemented in both a very short timer, and button assignment.  And here's my dilemma:  My mouse's dpi setting is at 800, and it drops to 400 when I aim.  This is my default setting with any game I play, be it this one, Mechwarrior Online, etc.  In Warframe, when I zoom with any gun, this game also has a lower dpi setting for mouse movement while aiming down your sights, and this helps me land headshots with relative ease.  I've also made it work with this new Aim Glide, and for the most part, I'm fine with that particular mechanic.

 

However, binding Wall Latch to the right mouse button is a terrible idea.  Whenever I Wall Latch, if I'm facing the wall when I do so and then want to turn 180 degrees to look behind me, it takes 4 to 5 hard mouse swipes either left or right for me to turn all the way around to where I came from (ergo, behind me).  By the time I do so, I MIGHT have just a second or two to pull off a shot with my Opticor, and then fall to the ground.  And sometimes I have the misfortune of accidentally letting go of my RMB while swiping, so, you guessed it, I drop to the ground.  Completely Unacceptable.

 

This is yet another terribly implemented mechanic that I had such HIGH HIGH hopes for.  Why is there a timer to this ability?  And why is said timer so very short?  Why is your aim zoom mouse button bound to this mechanic?  Again, see my proposals below for better fixes.

 

 

Proposal for fixes:

First, I'll start with how to fix the Wall Latch mechanic, as this will tie in with Wall Dash (Up and Horizontal).

 

Instead of binding Wall Latch to the Right Mouse Button for aiming, bind it to the Spacebar (default Jump key).  We already need to hold the Spacebar to stay on the wall during a Wall Dash anyways, and the VERY SIMPLE solution to Wall Latch is to simply release your movement key.  That's it.

 

So as an example, you initiate a Wall Dash and are moving along the wall.  You want to stop and Wall Latch?  Simply let go of your forward movement key.  You want to go up?  Aim your sights up, and press your movement key and you go up the wall.  All of this while holding down the Spacebar.  This would also mean to completely get rid of the Wall Latch timer, OR if you MUST keep a timer, then extended it to a full 60 seconds MINIMUM.  10 seconds is just way way way too short for a mechanic that should be unlimited in my opinion.

 

The added benefit of this is that let's say you have stopped and want to vault to either another vertical surface or somewhere on the ground.  Aim where you want to go with the mouse, and release the Spacebar.  If you aim straight down, you jump/drop towards the ground and can do a ground slam if you want.  If you aim far away, you launch yourself to where you are aiming, either to another surface that you can latch onto by holding the Spacebar again, or you can try for that Wall Attack on an enemy.  This has huge potential to land those Wall Attacks that are seldom, if ever, used.

 

Additionally, by getting rid of the Wall Latch timer, you can replace the mods with Wall Latch on them with Wall Vault, allowing you increased vaulting distance.

 

 

Second, get rid of the bunny hop and put back Wall Run/Walk mechanic.  (And incidentally, don't use the excuse that some walls can't be run on;  all DE has to do is flatten out the invisible mesh along those vertical surfaces.  Problem solved.)

 

And here's how you fix this:  While on a vertical surface, if you just use your movement key, you Wall Walk at the warframe's base movement.  If you also Hold/Toggle your Sprint key, then you Wall Run at the warframe's Sprint Speed. Want to stop your Wall Run/Walk mid-stride?  Just release your movement key.  You then enter Wall Latch, and can look around, and either resume your movement, or whatever you feel like doing depending on the situation.

 

And this time, keep the unlimited height you can reach like we have now, and bring back the Backflip if we face the wall and release the Spacebar, just like before.  Also, by bringing back the Wall Run/Walk mechanic, you can continue your movement around curved surfaces instead of vaulting off of them with this crappy bunny hop mechanic.  This alone would vastly improve Parkour 2.0 and make it feel like space ninjas again.

 

 

Conclusion

DE, I'm going to continue to play your game.  You guys are developers that really seem to enjoy working on this gem of a game, and so I will continue to support you guys.  I buy a little platinum now and then, and enjoy my time and money spent on this game.

But for the life of me, I will never fathom how the bunny hopping mechanic was ever a good idea and ever passed the design stage of development.  It really never was a good idea, and I have no idea why you guys chose to do it anyways.  It has literally killed 95% of vertical surface movement.  The only good 5% of it is removing the maximum height one can climb up vertically.

 

My personal score of Parkour 2.0 would have to be 6/10.  You guys can do so much better, and although just my opinion as a customer, my proposals for fixes I feel are very good, and would definitely raise my score to 9 or 10/10.

 

Thank you, readers, for reading my post.  Please add to the discussion, or just +1 if you feel the way I do about how much better Parkour 2.0 could be.

 

 

TL; DR:  Read the entire thing, you lazy bastard LOL.  :)

[tactical_surgeon]

I agree entirely ~ 

[Shifted]

Get Rebecca in here, this thread needs to reach devs.

[Prany]

I see two upvotes and add mine. Number changes and I see three. It should have been bigger by that time. Where are all the people? This thread must get big.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Prany

[Caine2112]

Thank you for responding.  I too hope more people read my opinion on the matter.

[Feallike]

Actuallly... The new Wallhop allows you to get by corners by aiming off the wall. It allows you to slightly increase the jump between each hop to get around corners if you do it right. So it isn't that the system is bad it is that you haven't learned it yet. It also lets you get off the wall quickly to use bullet time to shoot the enemy.

 

You do have control of your character by pressing the space in different paces and changing camera angle to aim where the hop is going.  and if you hold it down you stay level no matter what.

 

You have a double jump for wall climbing for those ledges. :/ Use it, it is very helpful.

 

You can wall latch while not looking at the wall I have done it MANY times.

 

The new system gives you SO much control that some players are so use to the old one they are using half the mechanics their given.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Feallike

[muzashi1963]

fk all my yes. +1 x 10 ^ infinity.

[Acaelus]

First of all, the massive issue I have with this is that you CANNOT look away from the wall while doing a Wall Dash like you could before with Wall Run.

 

Yes you can, you just have to adjust your key inputs so that your inputs are actually indicating to the game you want to run towards the wall. Start wall-running, face away and switch from W to A to D, it works just fine once you get used to the controls.

 

Second, if you have the misfortune of the hopping animation hitting a curved surface in the wall along your path, say a jutting rock or and angled bit of wall (many Grineer tilesets are like this), the hop mechanic won't continue your movement around said surface, but jump off of it, making you fall into whatever pit is below you.  With the old Wall Run, you would seemlessly run around said curved surface with no issues whatsoever.  The only issue was vaulting at the end, but you guys fixed that.

 

Again you can actually do this, you simply once again need to adjust your camera direction or key inputs properly so you input the commands to jump towards the curve at the angle you want. You can actually hop across incredibly curved walls, even moreso than the old system. Very tight turns are still just as bad as the old system, but every hop you perform resets your ability to perform a bullet or double jump, allowing you to get back on the wall easily.

 

Third, you really have zero control of your character.  You basically are at the mercy of the hopping mechanic, and try as you might to steer your character left, right, up or down or along a horizontal axis, the hopping will always manage to find an edge somewhere to make you fall to the ground (or a pit).  The tutorial for Wall Dashing telling you to hold your left or right direction keys is utter crap.  In order to use said keys, you have to FACE the wall, which means you can't see at all where you are going.  If you can't see where you're going, then what's the point of directional movement??

 

What? I don't quite understand the problem, I've mentioned a few times in this post already but it seems to still be the same problem, you just have to input the commands in the direction you want to go. I've tried facing directly alongside a wall, running up it, even running backwards towards the camera. Or facing the opposite direction of the wall I want to run on, and running up it or alongside it just fine.

 

And Fourth, have you guys noticed that you don't Wall Dash in a straight horizontal line along a vertical surface?

 

I've noticed that too, and I really wish they'd normalize the pace so that it'd perfectly straight. However you can manually slow down the pace by tapping spacebar instead of holding to go straight.

 

2.  Wall Dash Up Again, very clumsy mechanic that has hampered and hindered more than helped scaling up walls.  Sure, unlike the previous mechanic where you could only run up a wall so high, this one allows you to keep going until you hit the top. However, instead of reaching the ledge and doing a front flip to get on top, half the time you hit the ledge with a jump and the game decides whether you jump onto the ledge, or vault far away from the wall.  Again, you're at the mercy of the mechanic.  Not only that, but there are a plethora of places on various tilesets that you could backflip onto.  Can't do that anymore, and it becomes a cumbersome chore to try to reach those places now.

 

The automatic ledge-grab could do with some reworks with the new system, it seems that for the short moment of the animation you can't actually ledge-grab, and often doing automatic wallhops will cause problems preventing the character from ledge grabbing. However I've never encountered an instance of the hops pushing me away from the wall if my character didn't ledge-grab, in every instance I just hop over the ledge with the wallhop without ever triggering the ledge grab.

 

As for the other point, you can still do the mechanical area's that required backflip previously by simply tapping the directional key away from the wall in order to hop directly away from the wall. It functions the exact same as the old back flip used to but with more away-from-wall momentum instead of upwards momentum.

 

3.  Wall Latch However, binding Wall Latch to the right mouse button is a terrible idea.  Whenever I Wall Latch, if I'm facing the wall when I do so and then want to turn 180 degrees to look behind me, it takes 4 to 5 hard mouse swipes either left or right for me to turn all the way around to where I came from (ergo, behind me).  By the time I do so, I MIGHT have just a second or two to pull off a shot with my Opticor, and then fall to the ground.  And sometimes I have the misfortune of accidentally letting go of my RMB while swiping, so, you guessed it, I drop to the ground.  Completely Unacceptable.

 

This can easily be fixed by simply facing in the direction you want to shoot (if you already know the general vicinity of where you want to shoot) while you're wallhopping which I already explained how to do earlier in this reply. As for the timer it can be increased with mods, but you can also simply just let go and latch back on to the wall, as long as you're holding an input to move towards the wall when you do so you'll latch back to the wall and can continue aiming, if you don't want to use the mods.

 

Most of the problems listed here just seem like lack of understanding of the new mechanics and how to fully utilize them. The solutions to your problems exist, and I've listed them in the responses above. It takes a bit of getting used to because the new parkour system is a lot more responsive to directional input than the old system, and actually requires it a lot more, which can be a bit difficult for older players to get used to since the old system was simply a one button system.

There's a mild lack of automation in some of the mechanics but at the same time a lot of it gives way to a fair bit of freedom in the mobility. Personally I've had no problems with doing anything in the new system.

 

I've played a lot of games with parkour elements too them in my years, it's a very attractive feature to a game for me personally. Thus I've developed a trigger in my head that goes "OOOH! I bet I can totally do this!" every 20 seconds. So far warframe hasn't let me down, every single thing I've tried to do has worked.

[izzatuw]

I found wall hopping to be just fine and had lots more control than our previous wall running. You sure you've been using it enough? I haven't really had the issues you stated. Double jump helps since you can change direction with it.

[Outlander3734]

I really like the wall hopping. Reminds me of Metroid, and makes it way easier than trying to wall-jump off two walls in a third person game. 

 

Also, it works better if you tap rhythmically than if you hold the button. In fact, holding the button should just initiate the old wallrun and tapping should do what it does now. 

 

Also also, this mechanic works very well mixed with all the other mechanics (bullet jump, aimglide, wall latch, etc...)

Edited August 3, 2015 by Outlander3734

[Caine2112]

 

 

 

Yes you can, you just have to adjust your key inputs so that your inputs are actually indicating to the game you want to run towards the wall. Start wall-running, face away and switch from W to A to D, it works just fine once you get used to the controls.

 

 

 

 

Again you can actually do this, you simply once again need to adjust your camera direction or key inputs properly so you input the commands to jump towards the curve at the angle you want. You can actually hop across incredibly curved walls, even moreso than the old system. Very tight turns are still just as bad as the old system, but every hop you perform resets your ability to perform a bullet or double jump, allowing you to get back on the wall easily.

 

 

 

What? I don't quite understand the problem, I've mentioned a few times in this post already but it seems to still be the same problem, you just have to input the commands in the direction you want to go. I've tried facing directly alongside a wall, running up it, even running backwards towards the camera. Or facing the opposite direction of the wall I want to run on, and running up it or alongside it just fine.

 

 

 

I've noticed that too, and I really wish they'd normalize the pace so that it'd perfectly straight. However you can manually slow down the pace by tapping spacebar instead of holding to go straight.

 

 

 

The automatic ledge-grab could do with some reworks with the new system, it seems that for the short moment of the animation you can't actually ledge-grab, and often doing automatic wallhops will cause problems preventing the character from ledge grabbing. However I've never encountered an instance of the hops pushing me away from the wall if my character didn't ledge-grab, in every instance I just hop over the ledge with the wallhop without ever triggering the ledge grab.

 

As for the other point, you can still do the mechanical area's that required backflip previously by simply tapping the directional key away from the wall in order to hop directly away from the wall. It functions the exact same as the old back flip used to but with more away-from-wall momentum instead of upwards momentum.

 

 

 

This can easily be fixed by simply facing in the direction you want to shoot (if you already know the general vicinity of where you want to shoot) while you're wallhopping which I already explained how to do earlier in this reply. As for the timer it can be increased with mods, but you can also simply just let go and latch back on to the wall, as long as you're holding an input to move towards the wall when you do so you'll latch back to the wall and can continue aiming, if you don't want to use the mods.

 

Most of the problems listed here just seem like lack of understanding of the new mechanics and how to fully utilize them. The solutions to your problems exist, and I've listed them in the responses above. It takes a bit of getting used to because the new parkour system is a lot more responsive to directional input than the old system, and actually requires it a lot more, which can be a bit difficult for older players to get used to since the old system was simply a one button system.

There's a mild lack of automation in some of the mechanics but at the same time a lot of it gives way to a fair bit of freedom in the mobility. Personally I've had no problems with doing anything in the new system.

 

I've played a lot of games with parkour elements too them in my years, it's a very attractive feature to a game for me personally. Thus I've developed a trigger in my head that goes "OOOH! I bet I can totally do this!" every 20 seconds. So far warframe hasn't let me down, every single thing I've tried to do has worked.

 

 

 

I have been trying for the past hour in the Testing Ground to do as you suggested to work on, and for the life of me, I'm just not getting it.  Perhaps it's because I'm an older player and my reflexes have dulled over the years, or perhaps (and this is my opinion) the new Parkour Wall Dash system has been implemented with far too many timed keystrokes and environmental variables to make it feel good.

 

Seriously, what I suggested feels far more easy, and far more in control of one's warframe in the environment.  Keep in mind I play this game more akin to Splinter Cell than Unreal.  I can understand you younger players feeling a need for speed.  I won't ever debate that.

 

But would it not be even better to have even more control with the proposals I laid out than this convoluted system of timed keystrokes just to move up and down and left and right and around curved surfaces along a vertical plane?

[Educated_Beast]

I completely agree with all if the posters suggestions. The wall hoping just looks stupid.

Wall running looked slick and smooth, I find myself just ignoring these features because I find them horrendous.

I do agree with the positives you mentioned and your solutions are great. It would make a much cooler system keeping some aspects of the old system which were great (I used to use wall running all the time as well as backflips).

Hopefully they will rework some of this new system blending the good parts of both the old and new.

[Acaelus]

I have been trying for the past hour in the Testing Ground to do as you suggested to work on, and for the life of me, I'm just not getting it.  Perhaps it's because I'm an 

 

Seriously, what I suggested feels far more easy, and far more in control of one's warframe in the environment.  Keep in mind I play this game more akin to Splinter Cell than Unreal.  I can understand you younger players feeling a need for speed.  I won't ever debate that.

 

But would it not be even better to have even more control with the proposals I laid out than this convoluted system of timed keystrokes just to move up and down and left and right and around curved surfaces along a vertical plane?

 

So first of all, when directly quoting and replying to someone using the phrase "you younger players" not only implies your assumption that you're older than the person, which in all matter of fact you may very well be, which is fine. But it also adds a sense of arrogance, which comes with anything when you try to relate age and a certain action that isn't directly dependant on age.

 

Next up, it helps if, when you reply to an entire post regarding multiple different things you actually state what of the massive wall of text you just quoted you're having issues with replicating from the instructions given. There were a fair few things I mentioned in regards to your post, so "it" doesn't really help.

However, I'll assume you were referring to the broad point of my post and referring to being able to perform any wall-hop action in any direction while aiming the camera in any direction, for example:

 

Aiming parallel to the wall and hopping forward, upwards and backwards:

http://gfycat.com/BriefElectricBarebirdbat

 

Doing the above actions while aiming away from the wall:

http://gfycat.com/LimpingInsidiousGalah

 

Turning the camera a full 360* while hopping straight up the wall:

http://gfycat.com/LongSpicyAzurewingedmagpie

 

Or doing all possible movements while turning the camera:

http://gfycat.com/ShyTenderAuklet

 

Of course you can do all of that while turning the camera smoothly and rapidly like you would normally, but to avoid having a horribly shaky camera I tried to avoid spinning the camera a bunch.

This was all done without "too many timed keystrokes" as well... Facing parallel, want to go forward? W. Backwards? S. Up? A. Running upwards, want to face away from the wall instead? Switch from A to S.

This is movement 101, the exact same principal applies to when you're walking on the ground, turn your camera, but want to keep moving in the same direction. It's basic stuff, and not that hard to learn. Does it take a bit of getting used to when used on walls? Sure but there's no huge tricks or massively difficult button combo's involved.

 

Adding on to what I've said already, the old wall-run up a wall and backflip off it to get to a certain area is still possible, actually not only is it possible, it's faster and smoother if you use bullet jump to jump up the wall instead of wall-hopping, which you could use as well if you wanted.

http://gfycat.com/ImmediateZigzagKodiakbear

 

What you suggested sounds more like simply not having gravity, so you can pretty much just walk normally on a wall instead of the floor. It's the exact same system as what parkour 2.0 is, except with walking instead of hopping, and with the option to slow down while running along a wall. I mean really, wall-walking? That's your solution?

Besides, I much prefer the current system because it's a lot more fluid with hops rather than a run/walk along the wall, the hops when used properly and chained together with bullet jumps and such feel SO nice and amazing to use, you can do thing that you never could have in the old system. Hell I'm actually capturing footage for a more bullet-jump based video I want to make, so I'll show an example from that, this is some of the things you can do with the new system, with wall hopping assisting it, this is the essence of the new system that feels 100X better than old wall running ever did.

http://gfycat.com/AlarmedWhiteKilldeer

 

Honestly I don't see why a brand new system that works and does exactly what all the people are complaining it doesn't do, should be changed or reverted practically to the way it used to be, because people refuse to learn and adapt to a new system that is far more flexible than the old one.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

This is good stuff, upvoted. I don't really understand the need for the wall hopping when the old animation was good enough. Maybe use the hopping animation when you're trying to build up speed or wanting to run across a gap in the wall? 

[Volume]

Some good suggestions here.

 

I'm a fan but at the same time I like it the way it is. It would be good if the sideways and upward walldash was more fluid, though.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Volume

[theammostore]

You can indeed go around corners. I have done so many times. It takes a bit of work but it is possible.

[Caine2112]

-snip-

 

First of all, assuming the tone of my reply was arrogant is really a choice you made, not mine.  I wrote what I wrote with a clear mind and zero arrogance or malice.

 

Second, it is your opinion that this new bunny hopping system is better.  I disagree with it, and I've stated why in my OP, and I stand by what I wrote.  And you have disagreed with me and have stated why as well.  So on this point, we will agree to disagree.  Many who have responded have agreed with my stance, and a few have agreed with yours.  Therefore, I feel it is safe to assume that there are a lot of players on both sides of this fence.  How players will react to the way this new system feels, and whether player retention continues or falters, only time will tell.

 

The fact you are making videos on the new system is cool.  Perhaps folks will learn a thing or three from your endeavors.  I have tried for a few hours now in the Testing Ground to do as you pointed out, and for the life of me, I'm just not getting it.  My reaction time is just too slow, and I fall to the ground (or the pit of death) far too often.  I have thus resigned myself to use the crappy bunny hopping mechanic as little as possible, and resort to using Bullet Jump to accomplish just about any distance I need to travel.  My use of Wall Dash is around 2-5% of the time, with Bullet Jump replacing the other 95-98% of my movement requirements.

 

And this is a real shame, because I was seriously looking forward to Parkour 2.0, and this new Wall mechanic is a massive disappointment.

 

Which is why I stated my proposals to change the system to a sort of hybrid of the previous one, and this new one.  Remember, I play this game a lot like I would Splinter Cell (slow sniping, perching, and systematic stealth executions for as long as I can sustain it).  Except when it comes to Infested zones; I just melee the hell out of them and enjoy that.  I understand fully that a majority of the player base love to rush through the missions as fast as possible and require the movement mechanics to do so.  I, however, am unable to play that way.  I just don't have the reflexes to turn my mouse on a split second moment to face the correct way on that one hop along a wall.  Hence, my proposals.

 

I'm not sure where you accuse me of wanting no gravity in the game; my stance is quite the opposite as a matter of fact.  The gravity in the current system is just fine as is.  I don't see any need to change it.  Also gives a reason to use Zephyr from time to time to change things up.

 

Lastly, I always quote the wall of text or just snip it.  Picking and choosing lines or paragraphs can lead to taking things out of context.

[Cerebrum123]

@Caine2112, I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I really hate the idea of wall latch being tied to holding jump. I use a controller on PC, and it would be a nightmare. I would not be able to aim at the same time as a wall latch because of it. I wouldn't mind if players had options for this, but changing it in a mandatory way would make playing with a controller a nightmare. 

 

I use a controller because of a certain medical problem that makes games that use a mouse for aiming extremely hard. Games without good controller support are extremely problematic for me. Unfortunately, Warframe has mediocre controller support for the time being. Many of the suggestions I see being made make many problems worse. /rant

[Phaedruslives]

I don't really know how one can argue the kangaroojackframe 2.0 bunny-hopping is better. I get that there will be people that disagree, but overall it's pretty absurd looking, and using magic glue as a replacement for quick shots while wall-running isn't aesthetically interesting; or fun for that matter. As it further propagates the casual bias that DE has been sprinting towards for a long time now. It feels clunky and less responsive. I no longer have the same sense of speed and freedom in movement that I did before. Naturally, this came as a bit of a shock. Given that a feature called 'Parkou 2.0' seemed to imply a greater sense of movement. Instead we get something trying and failing to be Overgrowth, with a dash of Max Payne and magic wall shooty glue for good measure. I feel like I'm dealing with aliens on this one. My sensibilities don't seem compatible at all with the people who made these decisions and pushed for them to be implemented in the game.

[ArbitUHM]

I don't really know how one can argue the kangaroojackframe 2.0 bunny-hopping is better. I get that there will be people that disagree, but overall it's pretty absurd looking, and using magic glue as a replacement for quick shots while wall-running isn't aesthetically interesting; or fun for that matter. As it further propagates the casual bias that DE has been sprinting towards for a long time now. It feels clunky and less responsive. I no longer have the same sense of speed and freedom in movement that I did before. Naturally, this came as a bit of a shock. Given that a feature called 'Parkou 2.0' seemed to imply a greater sense of movement. Instead we get something trying and failing to be Overgrowth, with a dash of Max Payne and magic wall shooty glue for good measure. I feel like I'm dealing with aliens on this one. My sensibilities don't seem compatible at all with the people who made these decisions and pushed for them to be implemented in the game.

I can argue that. It's a matter of opinion. It reminds me of wire-fu movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. The old system i.e. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time method doesn't look nearly as nice because Warframe completely lacks PoP:SoT's 90 degree walls and regimented block system. Parkour 2.0 procedural parkour is way more fluid and aesthetically interesting than the old system of locking you into an animation until it inevitably fails when you hit a bit of level geometry.

 

I also just have to laugh when people say the new system is comparatively "clunky and less responsive". If anything, the new system is too responsive - it requires a bit too much input from the player to keep running on the wall, with the tradeoff that you can do a whole hell of a lot more i.e. traveling up, down, reversing direction, wall clinging, etc. And clunky? Yeah, I loved how in the old system if you released jump just as you touched the wall you'd go careening off at high speed, likely slamming into and then slowly sliding down a wall... or just falling off a wall because it was too lumpy to wall run on... etc etc

 

People just need to give it more time and realize it requires more active effort and skill, but it's a hell of a lot more fun and engaging then "hold space when you get to that one tile that has a flat wall, otherwise copter/air attack everywhere".

[Phaedruslives]

I can argue that. It's a matter of opinion. It reminds me of wire-fu movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. The old system i.e. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time method doesn't look nearly as nice because Warframe completely lacks PoP:SoT's 90 degree walls and regimented block system. Parkour 2.0 procedural parkour is way more fluid and aesthetically interesting than the old system of locking you into an animation until it inevitably fails when you hit a bit of level geometry.

 

I also just have to laugh when people say the new system is comparatively "clunky and less responsive". If anything, the new system is too responsive - it requires a bit too much input from the player to keep running on the wall, with the tradeoff that you can do a whole hell of a lot more i.e. traveling up, down, reversing direction, wall clinging, etc. And clunky? Yeah, I loved how in the old system if you released jump just as you touched the wall you'd go careening off at high speed, likely slamming into and then slowly sliding down a wall... or just falling off a wall because it was too lumpy to wall run on... etc etc

 

People just need to give it more time and realize it requires more active effort and skill, but it's a hell of a lot more fun and engaging then "hold space when you get to that one tile that has a flat wall, otherwise copter/air attack everywhere".

 

When we refer to the wall-hopping specifically, can you honestly say that - that is more aesthetically compelling that a wallrun? I don't know, dude. I can't get behind that one. I really wish that I could, and that I wouldn't have to wince internally every time I see my character jump awkwardly about a wall like a ponce.

[vaugahn]

For the wallrun/hop thing, what I'd like to see is holding space allowing you to run across the wall, and tapping space allowing you to jump like we have now. The jumps are nice for fine control, but there's a lot of places where it would just be cleaner to run. It would also be nice to have the old shooting while wallrunning back.

[Caine2112]

@Caine2112, I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I really hate the idea of wall latch being tied to holding jump. I use a controller on PC, and it would be a nightmare. I would not be able to aim at the same time as a wall latch because of it. I wouldn't mind if players had options for this, but changing it in a mandatory way would make playing with a controller a nightmare. 

 

I use a controller because of a certain medical problem that makes games that use a mouse for aiming extremely hard. Games without good controller support are extremely problematic for me. Unfortunately, Warframe has mediocre controller support for the time being. Many of the suggestions I see being made make many problems worse. /rant

 

I understand and sympathize with your situation.  Although I do not have your issue personally, I do lack certain reflex control over my mouse, which is why using the Aim function on my mouse hard is for me for Wall Latching, and why I suggested the Spacebar instead.

 

Given your situation, what alternate button on your controller would help you better?  Or is the current configuration to your liking?

Edited August 5, 2015 by Caine2112

[Caine2112]

For the wallrun/hop thing, what I'd like to see is holding space allowing you to run across the wall, and tapping space allowing you to jump like we have now. The jumps are nice for fine control, but there's a lot of places where it would just be cleaner to run. It would also be nice to have the old shooting while wallrunning back.

 

This would be a good compromise to start with, and build from there.  

 

However, if you keep tapping the spacebar, how do you continue to stick to the wall?  Wouldn't you keep dropping bit by bit until there's no more wall to Wall Dash on?  Maybe introduce a 1 second timer between Spacebar taps, and if you elapse, you fall?

 

Thoughts?

Edited August 5, 2015 by Caine2112

[Cerebrum123]

I understand and sympathize with your situation.  Although I do not have your issue personally, I do lack certain reflex control over my mouse, which is why using the Aim function on my mouse hard is for me for Wall Latching, and why I suggested the Spacebar instead.

 

Given your situation, what alternate button on your controller would help you better?  Or is the current configuration to your liking?

Currently, only a bumper or trigger will work for a key, and the only intuitive one is what's already in use. Right now jumping is done with A, and aiming with Right Stick. Holding A to stick to the wall would mean we couldn't aim with a controller. Which ruins the whole point of wall latching to begin with.

 

I'll make this clear, I'm not against you having an option to rebind it so it works with space. I am against them changing it so that I have to use a jump to latch. Any keybinding I can think of that would allow me to aim and latch with that system would ruin a lot more than it would fix.