Saryn Rework

[Carl_Bar]

Time for another rework thread. Amongst the top mentioned frames for a rework is generally Saryn. Now this is I admit a frame I don’t have right now. It's on my to get list but I'm not there yet. So much of what I'll have to say is based on a combination of various provided information's in the threads that spawned this and the application of common sense.

 

 

Venom: Venom suffers from a really simple pair of basic flaws. Firstly the whole propagation mechanic means that even if you bring a weapon build to easily set them off, if your team mostly doesn't you'll have a hard time getting it to propagate. Secondly, most enemies till a certain point go down in very short order, so an ability like this that needs a long time to do even a few hundred damage becomes nearly worthless as you'll get virtually no damage out of it. And by the time enemies are taking long enough to die for it to tick it dosen;t do enough damage to be even worth considering.

 

Molt: Molt is generally looked on somewhat favourably. But honestly given it's got less effective health than rhino's iron skin, cant dodge, and naturally draws aggro so I struggle to see how this can remain truly useful at it's intended role of a temp damage sponge for saryn and teamates beyond the mid levels. It's possible I'm missing something but it doesn't look like a very good ability beyond a certain level.

 

Contagion: What's to say, it just doesn't add enough oomph to make her melee hit hard enough to be worth it.

 

Miasma: The odd duration mechanics promote frame builds that avoid making the rest of her skills practical. But like most pure damage ultimates it wouldn’t be very useful without some serious QoL adjustments beyond mid levels if it didn’t have that.

 

 

 

Suggestions:

 

 

Venom: Venom places 2/3/4/5 spores on a target within 60 meters and the same number of spores on all enemies within 10/12/14/16 meters of the initial target. Spores can be popped dealing 2.5%/5%/7.5%/10% of the targets maximum health split evenly between viral, corrosive, and gas damage types with separate 10% proc chances for each. If a target dies with spores still attached they will consume the body to deal the above listed damage per spore remaining to every enemy within 5/6/7/8 meters of the corpse. Damage numbers are based on the maximum health of each individual struck, not the corpses health when it was alive. Enemies killed by one spore detonation cannot themselves detonate. Spores last for 30 seconds after which they mature and burst dealings 50 each of gas corrosive and viral damage with a 10% proc chance for each.

 

Molt: Molt's Shields and Health are now equal to 100%/200%/300%/400% of Saryn's own total values. Now inflicts corrosive, gas, and viral damage of the listed amounts with separate 100% proc chances for each type.

 

Contagion: Now costs 25 energy to activate and consumes 2/2/1/1 energy per second while active. Contagion adds 25%/40%/60%/75% extra each of corrosive, gas, and viral damage to Saryn's melee attacks, her slam attacks now propagate through obstacles and have an increased radius of 1/2/3/4 meters. Enemies killed by melee attacks will explode dealing the same damage as a slam attack, (including this abilities bonus's t damage and radius), and finishers will stun all enemies within 3/5/7/9 meters for 4/6/8/10 seconds.

 

Note: Damage bonuses scale with power strength, stun duration scales with power duration. Stun radius and slam attack bonus radius do not scale with power range/duration/strength at all.

 

Miasma: Miasma creates a travelling damage aura around Saryn for 10/20/30/40 seconds dealing 20/30/40/50 each of Gas, Corrosive, and Viral damage per second to all enemies in a radius of 20/25/30/35 meters. These cannot proc except on the final pulse of the ability which is a 100% proc chance for each of the three types of damage. However enemies in the area of affect have their maximum health and armour reduced by 50% for the duration and enemies killed in the area of affect by any means will spawn gas clouds with a radius of 3/6/9/12 meters dealing 70/80/90/100 toxin damage per second. They persist for 5/10/15/20 seconds.

 

 

 

Main concepts of each effect:

 

Venom: the different ways in which spores can work provides uses for both spore popping builds and quick killing builds, whilst basing radial damage off the hit targets maximum health combined with various things that reduce the damage types means your not getting a 25 energy molecular prime without the CC but nor are you getting a low damage ability that doesn't scale. The procs add considerable debuff potential as well. A small punch on the end ensure damage is always dealt even if it fades off for any reason, only relevant at the lowest levels but still.

 

Molt: Mostly a QoL buff with the new damage types being more useful across a range of opponents, some very nice procs, and scaling health that means a high level saryn can back a very tough molt to draw fire with.

 

Contagion: Again 3 damage types for maximum multi-target utility. Slam buffs and on death effects add considerable additional AoE potential, and the finisher boost makes finishers much, much more useful for srayn.

 

Miasma: By decoupling the damage from duration there's no reason to nerf her molt or venom through the floor to maxamise it, and the heavy debuffs and end of affect debuffs as well as mixed damage types provide both a reliable degree of damage vs all target types, but also ensure high utility long after the damage effect has faded to obsolescence.

 

 

Now lets see if i can break my record of one reply in a rework thread :p.

[SusahCariAlias]

saryn is good, no need rework. there's so many frames who really need rework, which need to raise them from the grave.

[p3z1]

saryn is good, no need rework. there's so many frames who really need rework, which need to raise them from the grave.

 

Saryn is a one-trick pony last I used her. Put negative duration and max power str and efficiency makes her a press 4 to win like mesa. Only difference is mesa's other skills are useful, unlike saryn's. So she isn't good atm, she needs a rework.

 

Too bad some other frames also need a rework, like ember

[Rexian]

The whole beauty with Saryn now is that her elemental effects like Toxic/Viral/Corrosive is seperate from each other, using Contagion for Corpus units, Venom during defenses/survival with mass enemies around her and Corrosive for armored enemies as well as the potential room clear. Even with low duration 3/4 abilities is worth using.

 

This mixing it all up, would break Saryn for me in a lot of senses as I'd lose control over what procs I want. Also it'd kinda make her a caster frame, rather than the front liner she was introduced as. Personally, remake her Venom (a maybe on that one) and definitely change/remove Molt. Even with Regenerative Molt a Furis with augment is better so you don't lose damage/range/efficiency.

 

After reading through this, I'd drop Saryn as a main frame if this got remotely close to happening, and no it's not because of Miasma change purely, it's the Contagion change too. Glaive + Contagion = 1 shot nullifiers for days. I'd be happy with Digital Extremes just giving her a new second ability (since compared to Lokis Decoy, it's useless and well.. only used if you've spare energy and can be bothered) and more armor. She've less armor than Excalibur, and as I said before she got introduced as a front line warframe taking the heat, she even have lower movement speed than him. To me, that's a insult.

 

Also the whole less duration effecting her miasma and such, to me makes her interesting compared to other frames, it's not like Frost/Volt deals more damage with their fourth abilities because of less duration. Also Saryn with her third and fourth ability works wonders on Triton or anywhere you might go high lvl against corpus. Because it's not hit scan, I'd say she becomes a quite skillful warframe as your Miasma isn't that effective against shielded units, though Contagion is. Though at that lvl, you can't head tank everything. And I as I said play her with Glaive Prime as a combo (though I always have a glaive with me no matter of frame, just found it more trusty than any other melee weapon xD).

Edited August 16, 2015 by Rexian

[Domaik]

I've played for many years now and I believe that saryn does not need a rework at all...She's fine the way she is. She was tweaked when needed and stands in a very good place right now. No need for rework in my opinion...

 

Miasma is strong indeed but balanced, try to use it at T4 past 30 minutes...she can only melt so much...

 

Plus her regenerative molt augment just gives her so much survivality and takes agro off...it's just so good.

 

her number 1 too works wonders in high level runs where the viral procs are very welcome.

 

The only skill missing some usability is her number 3 but it's nothing to panic about in my opinion, after all the different procs she can make are very useful against all factions if you know how to use her! Don't just rush in using 4 all the time. Study the damage 2.0 table weaknesses and you'll soon learn to bypass corpus' shields with her or take advantage of her number 3 in infested defenses!

Edited August 16, 2015 by Domaik

[(PSN)kira4715]

Unfortunately while some of the suggested changes are good separate procs per skill would be better also for the people saying she is "FINE" or "GOOD AS IS" no she needs a rework badly... But unfortunately DE will never likely rework saryn because people like Domaik say she's "fine" >_>

[Enchillado]

I agree that Saryn needs some rework, but all your suggestions does not solve anything with this frame. I'd say that this topic is completely useless. And what's with those ranges? Do you want to cover the entire map with these abilities without even modding range above 100%?

Edited August 16, 2015 by Enchillado

[Misgenesis]

Again a DoT/Aura suggestion for Miasma, can we stop with that. Its a nuke.

 

Just fix the duration issue and make some other improvements. Her other skills are what need work.

[Carl_Bar]

Again a DoT/Aura suggestion for Miasma, can we stop with that. Its a nuke.

 

The current version is a DoT. More to the point if you're going to keep a non-CC ability working beyond a certain point you have to really build in a debuff and that requires it to last more than a few seconds.

 

@Rexain: Your not losing any of that, in fact with explicitly separate proc chances your getting all the procs as options.

 

Also what you love about contagion is explicitly one of the things wrong with it. Toxin damage is pure unmitigated garbage on it's own because corpus non-robotics aside it does recued damage or no bonus damage to basically everything.

 

@Enchillido: care to elaborate and actually provide feedback.

[Misgenesis]

The current version is a DoT. More to the point if you're going to keep a non-CC ability working beyond a certain point you have to really build in a debuff and that requires it to last more than a few seconds.

Not in the traditional sense. Fix the duration issue, increase the stun period and add a corrosive proc. Something like that.

 

Not another aura.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

 

Molt: Molt is generally looked on somewhat favourably. But honestly given it's got less effective health than rhino's iron skin, cant dodge, and naturally draws aggro so I struggle to see how this can remain truly useful at it's intended role of a temp damage sponge for saryn and teamates beyond the mid levels. It's possible I'm missing something but it doesn't look like a very good ability beyond a certain level.

 

Molt's intended role is not damage sponge. It's to draw attention away from Saryn, allowing her to slip away to cover and make a second assault. Also can be used to remove any proc instantly, then it pops and does Viral to everything nearby. Mine has a duration of 4 seconds, and it's more opportune than any duration build.

[Carl_Bar]

It's to draw attention away from Saryn

 

And how does something that doesn't even last 5 seconds do that? Oh right it doesn't.

 

Of the frames i own only Obroen does not have something that could be considered a defensive ability and one of the things experience has rammed down my throat is if you're in deep enough to need a sudden defensive boost you need more than a few seconds of time.  Unless your some quickscope headshotting god, (i know they exist but they're dammably rare), you just aren't  going to kill enough of the bad guys in 4 or 5 seconds to make a difference to how deep in the crapper you are. You need a lot more time than that if you're going to thin the herd enough to get back on  a stable level. 4 or 5 seconds might buy you another 4 or 5 seconds as they reposition if you can get some solid cover. But once they catch upto you you're still just as deep in the crapper as before. Nothings changed except your down a chunk of power. If your genuinely finding it useful for anything more than a proc cleanser at that duration i submit your either in a tiny minority as far as quick scoping goes or your using it when you could just use your legs instead.

 

@Misgenesis: DoT's don't get any more traditional than miasma. At least in the context of warframe. Remember my point about venom and how terrible long low damage DoT's are. Warframes traditional DoT's that actually function are all short duration unless they're fairly high damage per tick. Which is what was going for here. High damage without going to the extreme's of a direct nuke.

 

Also no, your idea is bad. it's just rhino stomp 2.0, (or a few other abilities i can name). The whole point of using superpowered versions of the elemental procs was that they associate with saryn very directly.

[(PSN)Yoshi_Bones]

I've played for many years now and I believe that saryn does not need a rework at all...She's fine the way she is. She was tweaked when needed and stands in a very good place right now. No need for rework in my opinion...

Miasma is strong indeed but balanced, try to use it at T4 past 30 minutes...she can only melt so much...

Plus her regenerative molt augment just gives her so much survivality and takes agro off...it's just so good.

her number 1 too works wonders in high level runs where the viral procs are very welcome.

The only skill missing some usability is her number 3 but it's nothing to panic about in my opinion, after all the different procs she can make are very useful against all factions if you know how to use her! Don't just rush in using 4 all the time. Study the damage 2.0 table weaknesses and you'll soon learn to bypass corpus' shields with her or take advantage of her number 3 in infested defenses!

Thank you, finally someone else who completely understands Saryn. Too many people are tired of seeing Miasma doing what it's good at, destroying mobs of worthless enemies. The biggest arguments I've seen for changing Saryn are:

1) Miasma falls off at end game, and doesn't provide utility - it actually does have utility, it stuns enemies for its duration. Obviously with a nuke build this duration is short, but it's long enough to stun a heavy and kill it with your gun, while taking a chunk of health at the same time. A duration build would make this stun last longer, but the short range makes it outclassed by CC abilities like radial disarm, chaos, prism, etc.

2) Everyone mods for one ability and ignores the others - against high level heavies the first ability I use is venom to score the viral proc. I don't use molt as a sustained decoy because I'd rather just drop enemies as they spawn, so I use it as a panic button when I get overwhelmed. I don't use contagion because melee is melee, so I either quick melee something to death when it gets too close, or I use a melee specialist like Valkyr. Additionally, I find this argument very weak because a ton of frames are used for 1 ability, especially in a group setting. When was the last time you asked a frost to use something that wasn't snow globe? Does Mesa get recruited all day for shooting gallery? How many people are running around right now with their frame AND melee builds dedicated to running exalted blade the entire game?

If we're going to talk about frame reworks, let's talk about frames like Ember and Oberon, who are generally regarded as not being specialized or strong enough to warrant a spot in a Tower cell.

Edited August 16, 2015 by (PS4)Yoshi_Bones

[Ronyn]

Saryn could use a few tweaks..not a rework by any means.

Molt is a bit too squishy to effectively distract high level enemies for even a couple seconds.

Her 3 should either be a lot more powerful to her melee AND/OR it should affect both her melee and her guns AND/OR it should affect the whole team.

[Temfist]

have you taken a look at my Saryn Rework? https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/507332-temphis-suggestion-series-the-saryn-rework-toxic-serpentine-bruiser/#entry5666927

 

I think one of the main issues I've had with Saryn myself is that in terms of power design and character, there is actually potentially room to make her powers give her some personality (gameplay wise and aesthetically).

 

(I feel having "Venom" spread to nearby targets was sorta a neat idea but ultimately is hard to visually represent it's effectiveness without it doing flat damage when it spreads. I also think having Contagion be limited to just a melee buff kinda feels like a tacked on move, rather then one that compliments her playstyle.)

 

That said, I think the fact that she is a one trick pony can be easily resolved by making her entire kit build off of stacking different types of poison procs and getting some sort of symbiotic benefit from it. I used her Ultimate for that, but there are a lot of different ways you can go about making her entire kit work towards a single focus and provide a solid playstyle incentive without making players feel like the character "must be played a certain way" to be effective.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Temphis

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

She is fine how she is, and Molt works fine with a low duration build.

[MasterControl]

I agree with OP. All of her abilities are affected by duration, but a negative duration Saryn is too good to not use, so it doesn't quite make sense to use anything else. Her 4 is the culprit - Building for long duration makes it nearly nonsensical to use. An idea I've been toying with is leaving it basically the same as it is now, remove negative duration scaling, and make Miasma create a cloud of corrosive gas around the area she casted that has a 30% chance to stun every 5 seconds, scaling with strength, as well as a guaranteed stun on cast. Basically, making it an area of denial tool that would allow a clever Saryn to escape being surrounded at any level as well as give an opportunity to kill what's inside. It fits her theme of being able to get out of any situation without making her overpowered. Personally, I feel her 3 has to go entirely, but I don't know what else to put there, though I would be okay with it staying if it were a channeled abillity. Her 2 is already really good, I use it to get rid of otherwise lethal status procs and draw fire. Finally, her 1 is fine. It's good scaling late game because viral, the only problem it faces right now is a duration reliance on a negative duration frame.

[Viedra_Lavinova]

Unfortunately while some of the suggested changes are good separate procs per skill would be better also for the people saying she is "FINE" or "GOOD AS IS" no she needs a rework badly... But unfortunately DE will never likely rework saryn because people like Domaik say she's "fine" >_>

 

+1 to you and the OP. It seems the community is split on this topic with no end.

 

Saryn is a one-trick pony last I used her. Put negative duration and max power str and efficiency makes her a press 4 to win like mesa. Only difference is mesa's other skills are useful, unlike saryn's. So she isn't good atm, she needs a rework.

 

Too bad some other frames also need a rework, like ember

+1 I agree 100%

 

EDIT: https://warframe.com/news/numbers-warframe-powers A log from a few months ago detailing warframe power frequency, and ultimately leading up to Excalibur's rework. Notice how Miasma is 2nd place, Saryn is in the exact same position as Excalibur now. It's only a matter of time, you can't even argue against it.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Viedra_Lavinova

[Carl_Bar]

Ok a bit off things at the moment, (stuff happened irl), so this reply may not be upto full standards but i'll give it a go.

 

@Yoshi_Bones: 

 

1. I honestly didn't know about the stun it currently has so that's cool. The wiki doesn't mention it and i've never heard anyone else mention it. But the scaling problem is precisely why i've worked on the debuffs for it and other skills.

 

2. I didn't say the viral proc isn't useful. But 25 energy for something that's hard to apply to multiple targets and that you can get fairly readily from many weapon builds is hardly spectacularly useful. And most of the rest of what your saying is stuff i'm trying to address from a QoL poV. Though the molt change isn't just about raising molts effective duration for oh crap, it also adds some important team utility by providing effective damage mitigation for the whole team.

 

Also the devs have repeatedly stated time and again that they want all abilities used and useful The degree to which they achieve this is variable but seriously many frames are not just about one specific skill. They can be built that way but they still have uses for others. Saryn is a miasma bomber and nothing more.

 

@Thempis: I'd seen it but for some reason i find the format of your rework posts hard to read. Also i'm not a fan of your tendency to go "this is boring throw it out". Generally i look at an ability and ask; what is this supposed to do? followed by; Why doesn't this work as a useful effect? And then try and figure out what i need to add or modify to make it work. In some cases of course a total rebuild is required. A lot of what excal has gotten over the years but especially the jump removal and replace with parkour 2.0 is a perfect example of this done well.

 

Thats not to say your style is bad btw, just not my own preferred style. It's part of why i haven't tried oberon yet. I'm not sure how to fix most of his powers without totally changing their functionality a lot.

 

@Numbers: Yeah that's so demonstrative thanks for posting it.

[akira_him]

We basically need a duration build for her

Venom: Now called Contagion, reduce enemy damage and accuracy + current viral proc/spreading

Molt: fine

Contagion: called Venom now, buff melee damage and gets "Overheat"

Miasma: stun and reduce damage/accuracy of enemies

[vashyoung]

Miasma: Miasma creates a travelling damage aura around Saryn for 10/20/30/40 seconds dealing 20/30/40/50 each of Gas, Corrosive, and Viral damage per second to all enemies in a radius of 20/25/30/35 meters. These cannot proc except on the final pulse of the ability which is a 100% proc chance for each of the three types of damage. However enemies in the area of affect have their maximum health and armour reduced by 50% for the duration and enemies killed in the area of affect by any means will spawn gas clouds with a radius of 3/6/9/12 meters dealing 70/80/90/100 toxin damage per second. They persist for 5/10/15/20 seconds.

 

 

smell like dragon age eh?? arcane warrior?

Edited August 17, 2015 by vashyoung

[Carl_Bar]

Never played it so no idea. It was just a case of adding a lot of cool debuffs to it that are relevant to endgame and raising it's duraton enough to make em work.