The Problems With Rhino And Ash

[owendawgx]

DISCLAIMER: This is specifically talking about Rhino and Ash due to the nature of their kit having massive potential, but no consistent payoff.

 

So, what is the problem with Rhino and Ash? 

 

Well, it comes down to how their abilities are used. Allow me to explain.

 

While Rhino's ability set offers some decent benefits to his team, he is stuck in between being a tank and a support, and ends up doing not particularly well at either. At low levels, Iron Skin is ridiculous, while at higher levels, it isn't even worth the energy. This makes him fail as a tank. Similarly, his CC, while great in concept, coincides with his usage as a tank, being able to run into a group of enemies and stomp, which, for previously stated reasons, isn't really a viable decision, and renders his supportive capabilities practically null.

 

Next, Ash. Ash and Rhino are similar in that they are practically OP up to a certain level, where they become instantly useless. With Ash, Bladestorm has a RIDICULOUS amount of damage, which continues for quite a while, however it quickly becomes obsolete because, while the damage potential is high, it takes far too long to execute, with unreliable targeting as well. And Shuriken, while it has decent damage as well, only striking two targets makes it no where near being worth it. Not to mention, the lack of range on his invisibility augment prevents him from the one niche role he could ever really achieve. 

 

So, I suggest a complete re-look at these two frames' signature abilities (Iron Skin and Bladestorm) with QoL or other slight buffs to some of their other more lackluster skills (Shuriken).

 

I grouped these two together, since it is really only one ability that prevents them from filling their role, whil other frames are in need of almost complete reworks (Saryn/Ember).

[(PSN)GiantChoco]

for rhino in late game you would rely on roar to buff the team and rhino stomp to suspend enemys iron skin would just let you take damage for a bit longer and think charge is well used to knock back lines of enemys 

 

for ash blade storm is armor ignore and it already has high base damage  so it would take a very long time to have it do even a tiny amount of less damage and even though it might be a bit slow it doesn't matter ash and his clones do target a ton of enemys 

shuriken is meant to be spammed on stronger targets 

 

I would say you should use these frames more before saying things like this (maybe not rhino his a bit overrated and some  his players arnt exactly the best ones)

Edited August 17, 2015 by (PS4)GiantChoco

[Volinus7]

Ash is OP up to lvl999 he can one button remove all the armor by seeking shuriken.

Teleport instant health refill

Godmode Smokescreen

I rarely use bladestorm since 3 of his abilities are so good.

[Scottie_Auren]

I'd definitely like to second the appeal of a rework for Rhino. I think he's the best looking frame, and a lot of fun to play, but he just isn't as useful as other frames in high level/ endless missions. A few potential suggestions regarding iron skin: (obviously not all the changes should be made, but a subset or just food for thought.)

 

-> make the hp pool similar to Frost's Snowglobe. Brief invulnerability period that adds damage to hp. (Allowing it to scale to the mission level.)

 

-> make the hp use armor's damage reduction

 

-> change hp amount to be calculated off of rhino's shields/ health/ armor stats

 

-> allow iron skin to be recast while active, adding more hitpoints into the skin (again, looking at Frost's Snowglobe)

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

... or (and this is my personal preference) a complete rework of Iron Skin:

 

Iron Skin should be used for a slow moving, tank frame, allowing Rhino to protect the party by redirecting attention to him. Additionally, with the newer focus on toggle/ channel abilities, Iron Skin seems like a good fit.

 

New Iron Skin: 

 

-> drains energy while active (or is just a flat toggle)

 

-> disables the ability to sprint, bullet jump, wall climb(hop); and/ or slows movement speed significantly

 

-> in a large radius, makes targets fixate aggo on Rhino, and passive threat is boosted significantly. (Similar to Loki's Decoy, Sayrn's Molt.)

 

-> provides immunity to all status effects, knockdowns, and staggers

 

-> provides flat damage reduction (no hitpoints) to all incoming damage to shields and health (percentage perhaps modified by armor value)

 

-> prevents any shield-bleed through damage (toxin)

 

 

Just food for thought.

 

Edit: Oh!, and perhaps a Syndicate Augment: While Iron skin is active, any health damage to allies within a certain radius is instead transferred/ split between Rhino and the ally.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Aurentus

[Xplain9]

I agree with Rhino in that he kinda fails at being a tank, I think Iron Skin should take in count armor just like Frost Snow Globe. About Ash, I would like to see Shuriken targeting more enemies, and the Smoke Screen augment distance should be increased for sure. I don't have problems with any of the other abilities of Rhino or Ash.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Xplain9

[xLordKogax]

BladeStorm

 

I love it, just wish it was faster with better animations

 

Imho its like a Multi-Stealth kill with Clones. Sucks that You alert enemies when in Bladestorm which i think he shouldnt.

I think he should stun all enemies marked by BS with a Smoke cloud leaving enemies choking available for allies to perform Finishers

 

Except for the enemies being attacked by Ash/Clones xP

 

Smoke screen needs AoE cloud that Chokes enemies opening them up to finishers for Ash and allies that lasts as long as the casters duration.

This should fix Smoke Shadow opening a Window for allies to enter your Cloak

 

I say this all the time yet noone hears these great ideas -_-

 

One guy says My concepts are Cancerous xP 

Edited August 17, 2015 by ShadowsofKoga

[(PSN)inuyasha279]

Shuriken has an auto slash proc which automatically goes through everything and has an aug to remove armor.

Why would you want range on invisibility? Do you want to stun enemies that much? If you ment duration put arcane trickery on. Invisible for 20 seconds as a chance whenever you hit a finisher.

Ash has a niche, finisher damage.

Shuriken does bleed which is basically finisher, smoke bomb makes stealth finishers easier, teleport opens up enemies for finishers and bladestorm does finisher also. So no his powers go through armor and shields.

Ash does not become instantly useless.

Edited August 17, 2015 by (PS4)inuyasha279

[xLordKogax]

Shuriken has an auto slash proc which automatically goes through everything and has an aug to remove armor.

Why would you want range on invisibility? Do you want to stun enemies that much? If you ment duration put arcane trickery on. Invisible for 20 seconds as a chance whenever you hit a finisher.

Ash has a niche, finisher damage.

Shuriken does bleed which is basically finisher, smoke bomb makes stealth finishers easier, teleport opens up enemies for finishers and bladestorm does finisher also. So no his powers go through armor and shields.

Ash does not become instantly usless.

 

Correct!

 

Ash does Finish Her Damage! xD

 

Yet Bladestorm has to strike certain enemies Multiple times, when he should actually just Finish enemies one hit.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Easiest possible Iron Skin change: make its health function exactly like Snow Globe's health.

 

From the wiki:

 

Upon activation, the globe skin is invulnerable for 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds. All incoming damage that is absorbed during the invulnerability period is converted into health and added to the globe's skin's base health. 500% of your armor value is also added to the globe's skin's base health.

[Hochstepanzerjager]

Rhino's powers are fine, they just need to be buffed a bit.

 

Iron Skin should be able to be boosted by Armor mods, and Stomp's strength should be boosted to make him high tier viable, but able to scale appropriately based on his frame level, to prevent him from being too OP at lower ones. Roar works fine as it is, and Charge should allow you to "bounce" from one enemy to the next.

[JalakBali]

Wuh wha what?

 

Rhino only sucked at higher levels if you only rely on his Iron Skin. Stomp ignores levels, it's a crowd control that's great as long as you have the guns to kill the helpless enemies. Roar is still the best damage buff. If you want to make Rhino viable at higher level you just need to stop playing at like you're in newbie levels.

 

Ash might falter at highest level only because his abilities are not crowd control. But he can still dish more damage than most frames and like someone said before, with Syndicate mods his abilities are still super useful as long as you're not relying on pressing 4 and taking a break.

 

Stop playing the game at the high levels using strategies that only worked on low levels, or thinking a frame should be able to solo all content.  Also to the people who said their abilities need to be buffed so they could trivialized high levels like they did low levels, you're literally asking the devs to make Ash and Rhino be made even more invincible at low levels. They're already 'easy-mode' for anyone at low levels.

[KnightCole]

Rhino should be the one frame that has his armor modifiers also apply to his shields and health. 

[bubbabenali]

Uhm sidequestion: Does Bladestorm kill now instant with Covert Lethality?

Edited August 18, 2015 by bubbabenali

[xLordKogax]

Uhm sidequestion: Does Bladestorm kill now instant with Covert Lethality?

 

I believe Bladestorm isnt affected by Covert Lethality

[Zachatoo]

Uhm sidequestion: Does Bladestorm kill now instant with Covert Lethality?

Nope. BUT! You can teleport to an enemy to open the enemy up to a finisher, insta-kill with covert lethality.

[Ronyn]

Stop playing the game at the high levels using strategies that only worked on low levels, 

The strategies we learn early on are supposed to be what we need to have mastered by end game.  

Sure, we can all pick the powers on our frames that are still viable at high levels to keep going through content but the truth is that ALL powers should be good at high levels. 

 

 

 They're already 'easy-mode' for anyone at low levels.

So you're saying that a level 10 rhino with level 10 gear and the mods one has by level is super string against level 10 enemies?

Or are you taking a high level frame to low level content and then calling it OP at low levels?

 

Roar is still the best damage buff.

The best? Roar buffs offensive damage by 50% at base. Sonar amplifies damage to enemies by 500% at base.

[Zachatoo]

The best? Roar buffs offensive damage by 50% at base. Sonar amplifies damage to enemies by 500% at base.

Roar is a buff, Sonar is a debuff. And Sonar requires aiming. I do agree that Sonar is in the vast majority of cases better.

[Jeetza]

Both of them are perfectly fine and viable. Ash does large amounts of finisher damage so he stays useful into the late game. Rhino has a large stun with his ulti and can over double his team's damage. I don't see any more problems with them then any other frames in the game. The fact you say they become useless late game tells me you aren't playing them right or are using an ill-conceived build. Both of them have lots of end game viability if played right.

[Ronyn]

Roar is a buff, Sonar is a debuff. And Sonar requires aiming. I do agree that Sonar is in the vast majority of cases better.

Roar is a buff/sonar is a debuff. True, but the end result is the same.

Hence the comparison is relevant when people try to claim Roar is the "best"..when it really isnt.

 

Sonar requires aiming weapons though the spots are so big and the enemies so slow I don't find that any sort of barrier.

Plus powers very often hit those spots without the need of any aim at all. 

[Homer87]

I'd definitely like to second the appeal of a rework for Rhino. I think he's the best looking frame, and a lot of fun to play, but he just isn't as useful as other frames in high level/ endless missions. A few potential suggestions regarding iron skin: (obviously not all the changes should be made, but a subset or just food for thought.)

 

-> make the hp pool similar to Frost's Snowglobe. Brief invulnerability period that adds damage to hp. (Allowing it to scale to the mission level.)

 

-> make the hp use armor's damage reduction

 

-> change hp amount to be calculated off of rhino's shields/ health/ armor stats

 

-> allow iron skin to be recast while active, adding more hitpoints into the skin (again, looking at Frost's Snowglobe)

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

... or (and this is my personal preference) a complete rework of Iron Skin:

 

Iron Skin should be used for a slow moving, tank frame, allowing Rhino to protect the party by redirecting attention to him. Additionally, with the newer focus on toggle/ channel abilities, Iron Skin seems like a good fit.

 

New Iron Skin: 

 

-> drains energy while active (or is just a flat toggle)

 

-> disables the ability to sprint, bullet jump, wall climb(hop); and/ or slows movement speed significantly

 

-> in a large radius, makes targets fixate aggo on Rhino, and passive threat is boosted significantly. (Similar to Loki's Decoy, Sayrn's Molt.)

 

-> provides immunity to all status effects, knockdowns, and staggers

 

-> provides flat damage reduction (no hitpoints) to all incoming damage to shields and health (percentage perhaps modified by armor value)

 

-> prevents any shield-bleed through damage (toxin)

 

 

Just food for thought.

 

Edit: Oh!, and perhaps a Syndicate Augment: While Iron skin is active, any health damage to allies within a certain radius is instead transferred/ split between Rhino and the ally.

I wouldn't go with any of these changes - they effectively give Rhino a pair of broken crutches. May I suggest some different changes?

 

Iron Skin would have more HP, but also a damage reduction based on armor values, but a max damage reduction of a percentage (say around 75%) making steel fiber or armored agility wanted mods for Rhino to maximize this.

 

Aggro managing is also key. There are times where you can't be holding aggro (yes, even as the tank), so I'd toss out the threat level idea.

 

I'd also toss the movement handicap idea - Quick and fluid movement makes enemies less likely to hit you. This change suggests that you paint a bulls eye on yourself and nail yourself to the ground for enemies to shoot you.

 

As far as the augment... Iron Shrapnel should already be a part of the ability - it would be priceless if you took a lot of damage to Iron Skin to simply discard and reapply a fresh Iron Skin and proceed to the next room. Since Rhino already has some support ability, why not make an augment and call it Iron Will? Allies near Rhino will gain additional armor. This will address both the tanky side and the supportive side to Rhino in one swift move.

[RoosterTheRed]

Rhino Prime mainer here. 

 

The problem with Rhino is that if you use him with a firearm of some sort, he's a god. 

 

But if you go in for a melee kill.... He's too slow and cumbersome to evade incoming fire, and too un-tanky to absorb that damage. 

 

I melee almost exclusively, and to make my Rhino Prime viable end-game, with a melee weapon, I've had to trick him out with ridiculous power strength (that does nothing if I pause for even a moment), and immense movement speed. Arcane Vanguard, Rush, Armored Agility, and that power strength means he can rip a T4 Survival apart, even at 60 minutes, if he has a good melee. When his DPS drops off, I have just enough duration to make Roar viable. 

 

 

 

The problem is that not everyone is going to want to do that, especially when Exalibur is SO much more endgame viable right now. So perhaps he does need a change...

[JalakBali]

The strategies we learn early on are supposed to be what we need to have mastered by end game.  

Sure, we can all pick the powers on our frames that are still viable at high levels to keep going through content but the truth is that ALL powers should be good at high levels. 

 

In that case, Iron Skin is *too good* for lower levels. It should drop after a few shots like in high levels. It's supposed to be an extra layer of protection. It's not supposed to be your complete replacement of shield and health.

 

Yes, lower levels is supposed to train you but let's face it, practically all low level Rhino players pressed 2 and forgot he has other powers. Also, most frame's powers worked less well in high levels with the exception of some frames. For instance, Ember and Frost. Ember won't kill much in high levels with her powers and you can't rely strictly on Snowglobe to protect you. That is the point of high levels: your powers are not as strong as they were when you're killing level 10s. Otherwise where's the challenge?

 

 

So you're saying that a level 10 rhino with level 10 gear and the mods one has by level is super string against level 10 enemies?

Or are you taking a high level frame to low level content and then calling it OP at low levels?

 

Actually, yes. A Rhino once he got Iron Skin is 'easy mode' in low levels. Not OP, but compared to other frames in similar gear? Easy mode.

 

The best? Roar buffs offensive damage by 50% at base. Sonar amplifies damage to enemies by 500% at base.

 

You need to shoot at Sonar's weak points to gain the bonus. It also doesn't amplify all damage from allies. If we used that criteria, then Molecular Prime is the best "buff".

[bubbabenali]

I believe Bladestorm isnt affected by Covert Lethality

 

 

Nope. BUT! You can teleport to an enemy to open the enemy up to a finisher, insta-kill with covert lethality.

Thx, well Bladestorm is strong enough by it self I guess.

[Ronyn]

In that case, Iron Skin is *too good* for lower levels. It should drop after a few shots like in high levels. It's supposed to be an extra layer of protection. It's not supposed to be your complete replacement of shield and health.

 

Yes, lower levels is supposed to train you but let's face it, practically all low level Rhino players pressed 2 and forgot he has other powers. Also, most frame's powers worked less well in high levels with the exception of some frames. For instance, Ember and Frost. Ember won't kill much in high levels with her powers and you can't rely strictly on Snowglobe to protect you. That is the point of high levels: your powers are not as strong as they were when you're killing level 10s. Otherwise where's the challenge?

 

Actually, yes. A Rhino once he got Iron Skin is 'easy mode' in low levels. Not OP, but compared to other frames in similar gear? Easy mode.

Iron Skin has a problem but not the one you think it is.

Iron Skin is not supposed to "drop after a few shots" at any level. It is supposed to be a defensive tool that allows rhino to absorb shots for both himself and his allies. That is why DE put aggro on it (its in patch notes). The problem is the aggro on it doesn't work worth a crud anymore so people view Iron Skin as a selfish power that only serves to let rhino bypass obstruction and have an easier time.

Alternatively no one suggests that Snowglobe is supposed to be popped in a few shots because folks see the value of how it protects multiple team mates and an objective. Iron Skin is supposed to be doing the same job but in a different way.

 

Rhino and Frost are the two frames that DE directly refer to as Tanks in their official Videos. They are both supposed to be bringing the value of team defense into every level of the game. One by making a wide barrier that protects and the other by pulling enemy attacks to himself.

 

At no point did I suggest that people should rely strictly on one power for protection. In fact, jumping to that just because someone suggested a power is underperforming doesn't make sense. All powers should remain effective at all levels, they should all continue to do their job at all levels, and the challenge should come needing to from properly use all powers together with less room for human error.

 

You need to shoot at Sonar's weak points to gain the bonus. It also doesn't amplify all damage from allies. If we used that criteria, then Molecular Prime is the best "buff".

The only criteria that makes sense to compare is "what power creates effective damage amplification".

In which case, both Sonar and Molecular prime raise it higher than Roar. 

As for Sonar, shooting the dots is easy as heck. And sense sonar is literally 10 times as powerful as roar, even if you miss the dot on more than half your shots it will still result in more damage output that roar. Besides, powers will often hit the dots as well.

It's not even a contest. 

[Thumper3]

   At low levels, Iron Skin is ridiculous, while at higher levels, it isn't even worth the energy. 

 

 

 

You do know that IS makes Rhino immune to CC abilities of enemies right?  Being able to ignore the ragdoll of Heavy Gunners and the drag of Ancients is VERY 'worth the energy' in my experience.  Not to mention negating the energy drain from Disrupters.

 

I agree it needs to scale better for it's primary purpose to be better at higher levels, but the secondary benefits of it are still very useful and should not be changed.