Why I've Lost Trust In De

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Ok...I never called him a hypocrite and I was just trying to be nice and agree to disagree but I guess it back fired hehe. I should've explained exactly what I would agree on with auraelus but I didn't have time earlier to do it because I was posting while at work...excuses excuses I know but it true. I did say IF warframe turns into a pay to win game then yes I would agree with auraelus. I wouldn't recommend it to friends but I would still think it was worth the time and money I spent. Now if it went pay to win then no it wouldn't be worth our time and money because no pay to win game is in my opinion.

1. It is already pay to win.

 

2. I don't see him saying that he regrets spending money on the game, only that it is not worth spending money on it in its current state.

 

3. Even though he didn't say it from what I saw, it is perfectly justifiable to regret having spent money on the game. I know that plenty of people wasted real money buying plat which they used to buy a Prisma Skana and the appropriate augment mod to use with Excal. That is more than enough reason to regret having spent the money and to be put off of spending money on plat again in the future.

[vaugahn]

1. It is already pay to win.

 

This game has many problems. That is not one of them.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

This game has many problems. That is not one of them.

we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.

[master_of_destiny]

I'm noticing a pattern to this, and I don't think DE is stupid.  If those two statements are correct, it follows that they notice the same pattern.

 

Let's talk frankly about player investment.  You can spend plenty of time in game, you can experience hours of "fun," and you can come to a wall.  Either the game has become broken, you've eaten through all the content, or you've seen through the Skinner box that this game is and become disillusioned.

 

I started playing slightly before Archwing, and managed to stick with the game up to MR 18.  Considering the content that I couldn't access, that was 100% completion of regularly available weapons, frames, companions, etc...  When I reached that point, I looked back and asked one question, was I having fun.

 

It dawns on me that I wasn't.  I was grinding for progress, grinding for RNG loot, and doing all of this on 3% of the available locations in the game.  If most of the game is grinding, and you don't even engage in the game equally, then you've got a progression of numbers.  I felt accomplishment, because my MR goes up.  I felt accomplishment, because that random item finally dropped.  You can simulate both of these things with a tally counter and a random number generator.  Press the number generator, click the tally counter until you've gotten that many clicks, and each time try to do it in less time than the one before.  Sometimes the generator produces a small number, but sometimes you get a huge number where you just have to keep pressing the button.

 

 

I won't deny that Warframe does a decent job of hiding the Skinner box.  Having to reset weapons to power them up should theoretically force you to redo low level content.  Drops are based on worlds, so you have to grind specific worlds for resources.  Content squirts out at a good pace.  All of these things are good, but they can't fix a Skinner box.

 

 

 

OP, I made the same comments as you are making now a few months ago.  When I started with Warframe my friend, who were in the open "beta" before release to everyone, said the same thing to me.  It seems like everyone doesn't want to believe it, but after enough time it dawns on people.  Warframe is a deeply flawed game, that is kept alive largely by a willfully blind player base that is willing to excuse any poor decisions.  DE talks at the players, rather than with them.  DE shows insane levels of pride in their efforts, to the point where valid criticism seems to be ignored because it is criticism.

 

I feel like this is AA.  Hello, my name is <name>, and I haven't logged onto Warframe in almost two months.  I realized it was a problem in my life after the third game breaking bug in two hours ejected me from the game and I rage quit.  The rage quit had been building for quite some time, and it started with every update discovering new ways to be unfinished.  Archwing being absolutely and utterly unplayable was my first sign that the relationship might be abusive.  The point where the idea crystallized was a whole month of crashes every other mission because I used an AMD GPU.  What finally broke me was having all four lives taken from me by one bombard and losing a 40 minute survival, because Zephyr's Turbulence somehow magnified the damage of a rocket.  I was in sight of the ending, but I respawned, was instantly annihilated, and repeated until I got the game over screen.  It was then I knew Warframe was abusing me, and was just a tarted up Skinner box that expected for me to pay for the privilege of being a part of the longest beta game test in history.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll buy that Warframe is hard to code.  I'll buy that DE is doing their very best to get the job done, and they take pride in their work.  Here's my problem.  Assassin's Creed: Unity had a huge development team and insane resources, but still managed to release as a bug fiesta.  Warframe has been out for more than two years, with development time before that release.  Terraria is developed by, functionally, a team as big as the developer stream personnel.  Despite this, they're at release 1.3 in four years.  Each new release has a list of bugs that are smaller than most minor updates to Warframe.  Terraria is stable, it uses RNG in a reasonably fair manner, and has a smaller scope to match a much smaller development team.  Despite this, if you spent the $10 on a copy at release, you've gotten access to all updates free.  No "you have to pay if you want inventory slots" catches, no extended periods where the game didn't work.  No crashing to desktop.  The developers even answer people on their forums, and if you've got fair criticism they respond.  Talk about customer service, enthusiasm for a game, and releases that make most other developers seem to not have any QA in place.  Warframe could be like that, but it isn't.  We're beta testers, we're not particularly cared about by the developers (their streams are talking at us, not with us), and our opinions don't matter. 

 

If this was a restaurant, rather than a game, would you pay money?  The service occasionally completely forgets they've seated you.  You're given unlimited free garlic bread, but are charged if you need something so basic as a fork to eat your meal.  If you order soup, sometimes you'll wait 20 minutes and be served a sandwich.  Whenever you complain that you ordered soup you are ignored.  Once you finally dig into the sandwich, you find that the bread is half toasted and half raw, the meat still raw, the rest of the toppings are visually correct but taste of cardboard, and every five minutes the chef walks out, takes you sandwich back to the kitchen, heats up the meat a bit, and returns you the sandwich with one less or changed topping.  When you go to pay for your meal, you realize that the server has walked out and keyed a naughty word onto the side of your car.  What you see from the outside is a beautiful restaurant, which serves gorgeous food.  Once you've been to the restaurant, you know that appearances and impressions are counter to your experience.  The staff may love their jobs and be proud of the restaurant, but you'll never come back to that nightmare.  The squandered promise from Warframe, combined with lackluster mechanics, is what kills it.  All that promise, wasted so carelessly, is a knife to the heart.

 

 

Edit:

Minor grammatical changes.

Edited August 22, 2015 by masterofdetiny

[FelisImpurrator]

It's honestly the Detron release all over again. It's almost like DE doesn't expect anyone to enjoy their game.

Or, they're too optimistic, and expect people to have fun with their game instead of rushing toward the fastest way to suck fun out of it and ruin things that were added to the game because someone thought "Hey, this sounds awesome" and hoped that maybe this time, people wouldn't turn it into a new and improved way to let a bot play the game for them. Which isn't to say I'm fine with it, because maybe they really should just stop releasing things without assuming the worst-case scenario - that someone's going to come in and break everything if they add this or that feature without overhauling several other systems at the same time.

 

Cynicism is one thing, but did this have to sound so... pretentious? Most games are Skinner Boxes. That's the point of them, unless you're playing a game specifically designed to be artistic and not centered on progression (e.g., Monument Valley, Stanley Parable). The biggest difference lies in the amount of subjective value (i.e., fun) the box can give you before you tire of it, and really, you, a single player, do not get to dictate the answer to that question for everyone else.

 

A game is "abusing you" because you run into game-breaking bugs? So... DE just intentionally leaves them in to torment you specifically? That would be funny if it didn't sound so paranoid. Last I checked, DE's main issue was being too ambitious for their capability... and you almost had a point there, but a game the size of Terraria (and I say this as a fan of Terraria from way back before they even had the Crimson) really isn't comparable due to the massive differences of scale involved. Tell me, does the Terraria forum have this many posts? For that matter, does it have this many posts and threads that are just pure, unfiltered, unhelpful rage - where every second or third thread after a major update is a complaint that "x is useless" because it can't help people get the most loot with the least effort?

 

I notice a penchant for inaccurate and rather overblown metaphors on any side of the fence in this debate, and to be entirely honest, personally, I'm finding it to be a bigger annoyance than DE's shortcomings. I detest the "WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!" conspiracy-theorist attitude, where if you disagree you're simply not quite as "enlightened" as those who have "seen the truth", and this is the main message I get from you. I'm quite willing to listen to well-reasoned, well-thought out arguments founded in logic and not overwhelming emotion, but unfortunately, this is none of those things.

Edited August 22, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[ArbitUHM]

 

I'm noticing a pattern to this, and I don't think DE is stupid.  <snip>

....

 

I'm sorry, but that was quite a mishmash of terrible analogies and hyperbole.

 

I won't deny that Warframe uses a lot of Skinner Box elements to keep people hooked, but at it's heart it has compelling elements that stand on their own. I like the visual design, I like the bits of story they have released, and the core shooter elements are solid. Parkour 2.0, as an example, is something that was added that greatly increases the skill cap and fun of the game, but a significant portion of the community resisted it because it might slow down how quickly they get rewards. In fact, the community routinely asks for, uses, and defends abilities and weapons that totally destroy the challenge of the game because it makes the game puke out rewards faster. This is why a lot of community feedback should be ignored, and why the restaurant analogy is completely off base. The customer is asking for things that are horrible for them and might even kill them.

 

The plain fact is, if you're not having fun parkouring around and playing around with all the weapons and warframes the game gives you, then you've simply hit the limit of enjoyment that you can derive from the game. But people keep playing past this point for the rewards, and then the game suddenly becomes a deplorable Skinner Box. The game shouldn't be dismissed as a Skinner Box because people lack the discipline to set the game down when they stop having fun. 

Edited August 22, 2015 by ArbitUHM

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Balance changes happen, life goes on.

And with any luck, Peacemaker will be next.

And with any luck u maybe do more than a 20 minute surv on mercury

[-dicht.Amducias-]

....

I'm sorry, but that was quite a mishmash of terrible analogies and hyperbole.

I won't deny that Warframe uses a lot of Skinner Box elements to keep people hooked, but at it's heart it has compelling elements that stand on their own. I like the visual design, I like the bits of story they have released, and the core shooter elements are solid. Parkour 2.0, as an example, is something that was added that greatly increases the skill cap and fun of the game, but a significant portion of the community resisted it because it might slow down how quickly they get rewards. In fact, the community routinely asks for, uses, and defends abilities and weapons that totally destroy the challenge of the game because it makes the game puke out rewards faster. This is why a lot of community feedback should be ignored, and why the restaurant analogy is completely off base. The customer is asking for things that are horrible for them and might even kill them.

The plain fact is, if you're not having fun parkouring around and playing around with all the weapons and warframes the game gives you, then you've simply hit the limit of enjoyment that you can derive from the game. But people keep playing past this point for the rewards, and then the game suddenly becomes a deplorable Skinner Box. The game shouldn't be dismissed as a Skinner Box because people lack the discipline to set the game down when they stop having fun.

How did Parkour 2.0 raise the skill cap?

As you said we just get through missions slower, we need to polarize our warframes again to fit a parkour mod in the exilus slot and in the end i was one of those complaining the most about 2.0 and getting answers like: you should first play it... Im already faster than anyone i played with i found methods to move almost as fast as before but i doubt they are intended.. and for that Parkour 2.0 did not raise the skill cap im still pressing only 3-5 buttons all the time repeatedly

[RealPandemonium]

How did Parkour 2.0 raise the skill cap?

As you said we just get through missions slower, we need to polarize our warframes again to fit a parkour mod in the exilus slot and in the end i was one of those complaining the most about 2.0 and getting answers like: you should first play it... Im already faster than anyone i played with i found methods to move almost as fast as before but i doubt they are intended.. and for that Parkour 2.0 did not raise the skill cap im still pressing only 3-5 buttons all the time repeatedly

As much as I dislike this poster's attitude, he is right about "Parkour" 2.0, which basically took parkour out of the game and made it really easy to fly around missions with hardly any map knowledge or skill development.  You really don't need any movement mods at all, though.  

[ArbitUHM]

As much as I dislike this poster's attitude, he is right about "Parkour" 2.0, which basically took parkour out of the game and made it really easy to fly around missions with hardly any map knowledge or skill development.  You really don't need any movement mods at all, though.  

What do you mean by "took parkour out of the game?" Parkour did not exist in the game prior to U17 - there was only air melee/coptering and wall flinging, none of which are parkour by any stretch of the imagination. There was occasionally a flat wall you could run on but there was no reason to do it unless you thought it looked cool.

 

The current system OTOH encourages you to aim glide, wall jump, and wall latch as much as possible because of the massive accuracy penalties enemies get while doing so. Jumping from wall to wall requires more effort and timing but gives you more control.

 

If you want to you can just bullet jump + double jump + air roll everywhere, but there are incentives to do otherwise.

[Dualstar]

And with any luck u maybe do more than a 20 minute surv on mercury

And maybe youll come up with something to say other than useless trolling.

[RealPandemonium]

What do you mean by "took parkour out of the game?" Parkour did not exist in the game prior to U17 - there was only air melee/coptering and wall flinging, none of which are parkour by any stretch of the imagination. There was occasionally a flat wall you could run on but there was no reason to do it unless you thought it looked cool.

That's true, but instead of trying to refine the system and add new elements to make it more Parkour-y and look great, they scrapped most of it and went full space magic on it.  The end result looks silly and more contrived than it was before.  Also, moving around the map without abusing melee mechanics required map knowledge and the mastery of certain skills.  It was challenging and rewarding (except for melee maneuvers trivializing it.)  Now you just spam slide jumps everywhere.  There's nothing to learn besides the basic maneuvers.  

[RoninJed]

1. It is already pay to win.

2. I don't see him saying that he regrets spending money on the game, only that it is not worth spending money on it in its current state.

3. Even though he didn't say it from what I saw, it is perfectly justifiable to regret having spent money on the game. I know that plenty of people wasted real money buying plat which they used to buy a Prisma Skana and the appropriate augment mod to use with Excal. That is more than enough reason to regret having spent the money and to be put off of spending money on plat again in the future.

Umm ok all I'm going to say to that is...no it is not pay to win. This isn't a competitive PvP game so I don't see how it is p2w at all. If warframe goes all call of duty then yes it would be p2w but that's not going to happen because DE is focused on making it a co-op (or solo) game where you play against the AI. Oh I have the prisma skana to and it still works hehe. Edited August 22, 2015 by RoninJed

[RealPandemonium]

Umm ok all I'm going to say to that is...no it is not pay to win. This isn't a competitive PvP game so I don't see how it is p2w at all. If warframe goes all call of duty then yes it would be p2w but that's not going to happen because DE is focused on making it a co-op (or solo) game where you play against the AI. Oh I have the prisma skana to and it still works hehe.

DesecratedFlame is competing against himself, so I guess it is p2w for him.  In either case, this is pay to not wait vs pay to win, since you can always grind for stuff.  Paying players can just get it a little sooner than you, or no sooner if you're lucky.  Only stuff like slots and potatoes are locked behind a paywall, but you can get the plat from trading if you put in some effort.

Edited August 22, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[ArbitUHM]

That's true, but instead of trying to refine the system and add new elements to make it more Parkour-y and look great, they scrapped most of it and went full space magic on it.  The end result looks silly and more contrived than it was before.  Also, moving around the map without abusing melee mechanics required map knowledge and the mastery of certain skills.  It was challenging and rewarding (except for melee maneuvers trivializing it.)  Now you just spam slide jumps everywhere.  There's nothing to learn besides the basic maneuvers.  

I guess I'm curious what maneuvers people were using that required map knowledge. If you're referring to the chimney-like areas that screamed HEY CHAIN A BUNCH OF VERTICAL WALLRUNS AND BACKFLIPS TOGETHER, I didn't find that any less silly and contrived than what we have now.  And what "mastery of certain skills" are you talking about? Wall flinging? That looked horrible and was difficult to control.

 

It's true that bullet jumping trivializes those old void "puzzles" and whatnot, but the tradeoff - fluid looking parkour that can be integrated into combat - is worth it IMHO.

 

Also I like the bunny hops. :P

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Umm ok all I'm going to say to that is...no it is not pay to win. This isn't a competitive PvP game so I don't see how it is p2w at all. If warframe goes all call of duty then yes it would be p2w but that's not going to happen because DE is focused on making it a co-op (or solo) game where you play against the AI. Oh I have the prisma skana to and it still works hehe.

DesecratedFlame is competing against himself, so I guess it is p2w for him.  In either case, this is pay to not wait vs pay to win, since you can always grind for stuff.  Paying players can just get it a little sooner than you, or no sooner if you're lucky.  Only stuff like slots and potatoes are locked behind a paywall, but you can get the plat from trading if you put in some effort.

 

It is P2W, but we will just go around in circles if we argue about it.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

I get what you are saying.But in some cases,DE gives us what we want and in other cases they don't.

[Kalenath]

I guess I'm curious what maneuvers people were using that required map knowledge. If you're referring to the chimney-like areas that screamed HEY CHAIN A BUNCH OF VERTICAL WALLRUNS AND BACKFLIPS TOGETHER, I didn't find that any less silly and contrived than what we have now.  And what "mastery of certain skills" are you talking about? Wall flinging? That looked horrible and was difficult to control.

 

It's true that bullet jumping trivializes those old void "puzzles" and whatnot, but the tradeoff - fluid looking parkour that can be integrated into combat - is worth it IMHO.

 

Also I like the bunny hops. :P

 

Yeah, some people either can't be bothered to hop on enemies or cannot figure out how to do it. It is HILARIOUS. You do it right and you rarely take damage while moving except from AOE effects.

 

So yeah, some people want the old glitchy system back because it made them feel 'leet' to go so fast it broke the game. I get that learning a new way is hard. Change is always hard.

 

But some of us actually spend time MOVING AROUND in missions now instead of standing under the Frost's Snow Globe and waiting for the timer to run out/enemies to stop spawning. I know, I know, THE HORROR! Actually being MOBILE, AGILE and HOSTILE in a video game? WHO THE **** wants to do THAT?

 

 

Me.

 

Edited August 22, 2015 by Kalenath

[FelisImpurrator]

And with any luck u maybe do more than a 20 minute surv on mercury

Son, if you need Peacemaker to go more than 20 minutes anywhere, I have bad news for you.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

What do you mean by "took parkour out of the game?" Parkour did not exist in the game prior to U17 - there was only air melee/coptering and wall flinging, none of which are parkour by any stretch of the imagination. There was occasionally a flat wall you could run on but there was no reason to do it unless you thought it looked cool.

 

The current system OTOH encourages you to aim glide, wall jump, and wall latch as much as possible because of the massive accuracy penalties enemies get while doing so. Jumping from wall to wall requires more effort and timing but gives you more control.

 

If you want to you can just bullet jump + double jump + air roll everywhere, but there are incentives to do otherwise.

How is Superman flying around considered Parkour?  At least wall-flinging required knowing the game.  I like bullet jumping, but it is not parkour.

[Kalenath]

How is Superman flying around considered Parkour?  At least wall-flinging required knowing the game.  I like bullet jumping, but it is not parkour.

 

So... how many people know what REAL Parkour is? (I do. One of my sensei practiced it. VERY cool. And no, he could not wall run on a vertical surface for more than ten feet without shifting to another surface. Kind of like... wait for it... hopping.)

 

More importantly? How many gamers CARE what real Parkour is?

 

I for one do not play this game in the expectation that I will see real world physics and real world explanations for a far future cybernetic space ninja being able to do things. I play it to have fun making minced meat of Grineer, Corpus and Infested.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Kalenath

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

So... how many people know what REAL Parkour is? (I do. One of my sensei practiced it. VERY cool. And no, he could not wall run on a vertical surface for more than ten feet without shifting to another surface. Kind of like... wait for it... hopping.)

 

More importantly? How many gamers CARE what real Parkour is?

 

I for one do not play this game in the expectation that I will see real world physics and real world explanations for a far future cybernetic space ninja being able to do things. I play it to have fun making minced meat of Grineer, Corpus and Infested.

I know what it is and have done it (not competitively). And no, it is nothing like the bunny hopping we have now. You don't kick off a wall and suddenly get pulled back to it like a magnet. It's a violation of physics.  Running up a wall, on the other hand, is completely possible so long as you have enough force pushing you towards the wall. So the old system was more parkour-like.

 

And again, you spend more time bullet jumping, woo falling, and air rolling than you do actually wall hopping. I am thankful for since the hopping is so terrible, but it is not parkour.

[RealPandemonium]

I guess I'm curious what maneuvers people were using that required map knowledge. If you're referring to the chimney-like areas that screamed HEY CHAIN A BUNCH OF VERTICAL WALLRUNS AND BACKFLIPS TOGETHER, I didn't find that any less silly and contrived than what we have now.  And what "mastery of certain skills" are you talking about? Wall flinging? That looked horrible and was difficult to control.

 

It's true that bullet jumping trivializes those old void "puzzles" and whatnot, but the tradeoff - fluid looking parkour that can be integrated into combat - is worth it IMHO.

 

Also I like the bunny hops. :P

I'm mostly referring to parts of maps that you could vault off of to increase speed, as well as parts of the map where chaining wallruns could preserve your momentum.  Having to be creative about moving around efficiently was supposedly the purpose of the update but instead they effectively made everyone able to copter in the direction of their choice.  

[BaIthazar]

At the moment, Warframe is not a game I would spend money on.  It's a fantastic game

 

these 2 sentences contradict each other.

 

developers change everything, wether it be a much loved aspect, or a hated feature.

they do this to see how it works out.

if it doesnt, they usually switch back.

 

you may hate an upcoming change when you read the patchnotes.

and love it after you actually tried it out.

 

also, 10 pages of negative feedback does not equal 10 pages of valid feedback.

 

example:

DE talking about how the Opticor doesn't need any reworks.

Players saying the Opticor needs a buff would be considered Negative Feedback.

but seeing how the Opticor absolutely does NOT require a buff, the Feedback becomes invalid.

 

Game developers know what they are doing.

while some players come up with great ideas and changes.

that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of gamers (in any game) have no idea what they are talking about when they try to meddle with development

 

 

 it gave a very underused and disliked warframe a use.

 

I don't remember Hydroid being disliked at all

 

 

All that "feedback".......wasn't. You saw WHY the changes were needed. P Swarm only allowed Hydroid to actually kill if you wanted loot. EB working with syndicate mods mean that they were the best choice, killing diversity. G pull was forcing every player to center around Mag. When it came time for change, there was outcry, yes. But what did you say, Don't do it because it's balanced? Don't do it because it's actually not a problem? Don't do it because it doesn't break the game? No.It's don't do it because I'm not as EFFICIENT. Don't do it because I don't like nerfs. Don't do it because it doesn't affect me negatively, and those who are negatively affected are whiners. These are not good enough reasons.

 

all of this

Edited August 22, 2015 by BaIthazar

[Thaumatos]

these 2 sentences contradict each other.

Not really.  Maybe they are mutually exclusive points that don't sound coherent when put together, but they're not a contradiction.  Its not a logical requirement to spend money just because you think something is good.

 

For that matter, it isn't a logical requirement to not spend money on things you think are bad.  If that were the case, logically we should only have to pay our taxes if we think taxes are fantastic.