Survival Balancing

[(XBOX)KalDavos]

If life support is turned off.. logic stands to reason that the tenno would use thier archwings.. this is where i think the logic is flawed.. maybe to keep logic intact survival just needs to be about survival.. fighting endless hordes and surviving.. sometimes simple is better.. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by (XB1)KalDavos
Fixed typos

[--Q--uaint]

19 hours ago, Wandrecanada said:

Solo to group scaling could even include increasing instances of bombs or having multiples appear.

Please no, there’s too little teamwork/staying together in Survival anyhow.

19 hours ago, Wandrecanada said:

Lastly reduce infinite scaling and cap time allowed by stopping spawns at a certain time limit (so it follows the listed enemy ranks).

Interesting idea, I suppose, but then there'd be an end to the killing before we're ready. And that makes me sad.

1 hour ago, (XB1)KalDavos said:

logic stands to reason that the tenno would use thier archwings

I lol'd. True story.

1 hour ago, (XB1)KalDavos said:

about survival.. fighting endless hordes and surviving

Yes, this please. Make progression based directly on killing enemies so we can get to the tougher enemies faster. Or y'know, add a difficulty slider :/

 

[(XBOX)Snicket002]

Remember Gears of War Horde mode? I would be all over something like that in warframe

[--Q--uaint]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Snicket002 said:

Remember Gears of War Horde mode? I would be all over something like that in warframe

Nope. Would you mind explaining what, specifically, you'd like carried over into Warframe?

[(XBOX)Snicket002]

6 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Nope. Would you mind explaining what, specifically, you'd like carried over into Warframe?

Stronger and more numerous enemies each wave, the ability to create traps, offensive weapons, defensive strongholds, and it never ends until you die (yet you still keep rewards)

Disclaimer: It has been a long time since I played Gears of War so if any of the above stuff is incorrect about horde mode then it is because I haven't played it in a long time and am too lazy to google it.

[(PSN)acethefox]

On 08/26/2015 at 7:33 PM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

No, You don't need LS in surviva at all, .  Remove it entirely, and make the mode live up to it's name.  Keep all the same mechanics, of getting a reward every 5 minutes and enemies becoming stronger.  The mode would work better than ever, by not relying on RNG and pod camping, and it would be way more fun as a straight up horde mode.

 

EDIT:

 

For the people going to complain about tension, just have a group of assassins (e.g. stalker, gustrag 3, syndicate squads) released at every 5 minute mark.

Dude 20 mins in and stalker shows up. I'm so down for that you don't even understand, he's like the one thing that feels like I respectable boss in the game. Him on top of mountain's of enemies, and if you ignore a boss more appear till you're overwhelmed. All of the yes.

[CortezHextus]

On 8/25/2015 at 5:19 PM, Dualstar said:

Not sure about reducing the drop rate, theres already too much of a perception that Nekros is is a must-have for survivals...

 

Infact, had an idea;

 

Remove PLS entirely.

 

Instead of restoring a set amount of remaining time, using the LS capsule will simply prevent the mission from failing until the next one arrives.

 

When the next one arrives, players have a certain amount of time to activate it before mission failed.

 

This will require players to move at some point, will end those boring tunnel camps everyone only ever seems to do, and it removes the dependance on loot drops for the mission to continue, and it kills the noob trap of players just using the capsules as soon as they arrive without realising what it actually does.

I want to take this idea and expand on it. Because it is amazing.
What if instead of just dropping LS capsules the Lotus starts working on hacking schematics for the facility you're in. After an amount of time she identifies the location of secondary life support facilities. This could spawn a tileset behind any available locked door or unexplored area. These could be heavily defended areas, like the sabotage 2.0 reactors and spy vaults. You'd have to break into them as a team to temporarily re-activate life support in an area for a time. Eventually the enemy will manage to lock that system down more permanently and you'll have to go searching for the next one.

LS capsules could be 3 times you're out style drops by the Lotus as a stop gap if you fail to take a secondary life support facility before it is destroyed by the enemy.

Just a thought.

 

 

[--Q--uaint]

1 hour ago, CortezHextus said:

I want to take this idea and expand on it. Because it is amazing.
What if instead of just dropping LS capsules the Lotus starts working on hacking schematics for the facility you're in. After an amount of time she identifies the location of secondary life support facilities. This could spawn a tileset behind any available locked door or unexplored area. These could be heavily defended areas, like the sabotage 2.0 reactors and spy vaults. You'd have to break into them as a team to temporarily re-activate life support in an area for a time. Eventually the enemy will manage to lock that system down more permanently and you'll have to go searching for the next one.

Do you start working on the next Life Support location during the current one, or do you spend lots of time without LS?

[CortezHextus]

21 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Do you start working on the next Life Support location during the current one, or do you spend lots of time without LS?

In my mind a round would work like this.

You get on site and the Lotus gives you the usual message that they've cut life support. She advises you she suspected something like this might happen and immediately drops a life support capsule near you. This takes your timer from a starting point at around 20% to 100%. Then you get "hang on Tenno. I'm working on options, for now continue the mission."

So you fight for a bit until you hit say 5 minutes. Then your oxygen starts to deplete. The Lotus sends you a message like "I've found an Auxillary life support system the Grineer are using to keep their shock troops going. I've marked it on your map, take it. Use it for yourself."

So, racing against the clock, you fight your way to the room and take it from a fortified team of enemies. Once you have it it buys you say 5-10 minutes and then you have to go get another one. There should be a fail condition as well. Maybe after you arrive, if it takes you too long to take the room it self destructs and you fail to get that life support buff. In cases like this the Lotus has 3 capsules she can send your way to make up the difference but if you keep failing you eventually have to leave.

I'm just spitballing so by all means the idea would need some refining. But it seems like a more interesting version of survival centered around exploiting enemy infrastructure rather than straight up murdering them.

[--Q--uaint]

3 minutes ago, CortezHextus said:

I'm just spitballing so by all means the idea would need some refining. But it seems like a more interesting version of survival centered around exploiting enemy infrastructure rather than straight up murdering them.

I like it, though having the life support sometimes deplete and sometimes not is... odd. I feel like the gauge should change color or something like that to indicate that there's a continuous influx maintaining it.

Would the facility need defending after you activate it?

[CortezHextus]

8 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I like it, though having the life support sometimes deplete and sometimes not is... odd. I feel like the gauge should change color or something like that to indicate that there's a continuous influx maintaining it.

Would the facility need defending after you activate it?

Makes sense to me. An indicator showing when you have active life support and a notification from Lotus when that active life support ends would be ideal.

The Idea is getting big now but I like the idea of defending it. My initial idea was it was just a passive length of time that life support would be active before the enemy finds a way to shut it off again. But maybe you have to defend both the Life Support room which contains the control console the enemy can lock down and potentially destroy to prevent you from re-activating it. Additionally maybe the enemy would send demolition teams to ventilation shafts/distribution in rooms around the Life Support room proper. Forcing the Tenno to split their forces to prevent the enemy team from cutting off their new supply of air (beginning the countdown again and forcing the team to relocate once more). This keeps the mission from devolving into Defense 2.0.

I will say this sounds like terrible fun to me, but it does tread the line between Survival and Mobile Defense. For me that's OK as roaming rooms on an endless exterminate mission eventually loses its charm.

 

 

 

[--Q--uaint]

1 hour ago, CortezHextus said:

Additionally maybe the enemy would send demolition teams to ventilation shafts/distribution in rooms around the Life Support room proper. Forcing the Tenno to split their horses to prevent the enemy team from cutting off their new supply of air (beginning the countdown again and forcing the team to relocate once more). This keeps the mission from devolving into Defense 2.0.

I don’t like the idea of having to split their forces, but I like the idea of demolition troops.

Perhaps the idea would be: you go into the room and disable the self-destruct by disconnecting its power. The enemy brings in the power carriers from Excavation, and they try to feed the self-destruct while you kill them and feed the LS.

Disabling the other systems like the self-destruct means the system is deteriorating and will force you to find a new venue at some point.

This makes it different from defense, interception, mobile defense, and excavation.

How’s that?

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Warframes should be able to function without life support. Still hate the idea of it

[CortezHextus]

18 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I don’t like the idea of having to split their forces, but I like the idea of demolition troops.

Perhaps the idea would be: you go into the room and disable the self-destruct by disconnecting its power. The enemy brings in the power carriers from Excavation, and they try to feed the self-destruct while you kill them and feed the LS.

Disabling the other systems like the self-destruct means the system is deteriorating and will force you to find a new venue at some point.

This makes it different from defense, interception, mobile defense, and excavation.

How’s that?

Sounds very interesting.
I think we have created a pretty cool idea here.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 hour ago, CortezHextus said:

Sounds very interesting.
I think we have created a pretty cool idea here.

So the enemies want to be blown to smithereens? Sounds kinda weird

[CortezHextus]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

So the enemies want to be blown to smithereens? Sounds kinda weird

I think he means a self destruct system for the Life Support room.

[--Q--uaint]

9 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

So the enemies want to be blown to smithereens? Sounds kinda weird

A self-destruct for the LS machine itself would not kill them, most likely.

I mean, they're already sucking all the life support out of the ship…

Also, given the way the enemies attack us, I think it’s reasonable to say that they don’t really care for self-preservation.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Instead, how bout a alert timer...if the players fail to reset the timer wen its needed, specialized high tier enemies are released. Such as bursas, nullifiers, and bionic juggernauts at twice the level of the current enemies.

[(PSN)vamp6x6x6x]

Funny thing is that I was telling my friend the other day how I think it would be interesting if there was kind of an ultimate survival mode where the melee enemies could break your life support or at least damage it so that you get less out of it when it gets used.
 

This wouldn't replace the normal survival mode, just an extra thing for people who want a challenge. And maybe it could have a better chance at giving you fusion cores or certain mods as incentive to do it.

[--Q--uaint]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)vamp6x6x6x said:

Funny thing is that I was telling my friend the other day how I think it would be interesting if there was kind of an ultimate survival mode where the melee enemies could break your life support or at least damage it so that you get less out of it when it gets used.

Given the way LS capsules spawn, that'd be a bad idea. You'd basically just have to kill fast enough to get enough drops to keep going without getting 50% or more of your Lotus capsules.

[Beaverdog]

Survival is by far the most enjoyable mission type for me and welcome this change.

I recently came back to Warframe and used to burn the midnight hours blood pumping on T3 survival and on planet side, it has to be said that things get really interesting and at randonm times quite frantic after the 35-40 minute mark, the mix of elements between risk and reward has to be done on the fly and this is great, there are some who are not risk takers and survival is not for them! which is fine! however the risk is worth the effort and push 60+minutes if you can because if you need resources, credits, experience points it is there in bounties in my experience. there is nothing more enjoyable then seeing a 2 -4 man squad doing a slow tactical retreat to the exit while literally spraying and praying that you make it out alive:)

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Beaverdog

[magusat999]

I don't see how this is helping gameplay in later times of Survival, because what happens is the PLS drops start decreasing to a crawl. Since there is a small nerf now - and I don't understand why you would nerf the drops when they actually need to be increased, or at least keep them consistent across all levels of play (take away the diminished drops at higher levels) - it seems it is just making it more difficult to continue playing as the levels increase. It was already difficult, not due to the enemy scaling, but due to the decrease in PLS drops. You kill ten times as many mobs and still end up running out of air - should not happen. This just makes it seem like you'll run out exponentially faster. So, no - I'm not crazy about this change - unless we can get confirmation that the drop rate will not decrease as time advances???

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

On 4/1/2016 at 5:56 PM, ChronoEclipse said:

I don’t like the idea of having to split their forces, but I like the idea of demolition troops.

Perhaps the idea would be: you go into the room and disable the self-destruct by disconnecting its power. The enemy brings in the power carriers from Excavation, and they try to feed the self-destruct while you kill them and feed the LS.

Disabling the other systems like the self-destruct means the system is deteriorating and will force you to find a new venue at some point.

This makes it different from defense, interception, mobile defense, and excavation.

How’s that?

Different factions need different tactics, if ever so slightly. The infestation wouldn't do this, and where would the void enemies get these? They are stuck in the void with everything they brought in, unless a survival is sort of a mix with a sabotage...

[IcicleFerret]

I find survival to be the most brain-dead mission type. It's basically just a variation on the defense mode, except instead of guarding a pod and being fixed to a relatively vulnerable location, you can move around and only have to guard yourself, which reduces the sense of risk. On higher levels, like in Sorties, the large capsules are insufficient to keep you going but the enemies are next to impervious, making it difficult to gain enough life support to finish the mission. At lower levels, it's just boring as the enemies die so fast; I've taken to hunting down all the chests and lockers in the map just to keep myself awake. Somewhere in-between is the frustration of losing a mission because you were too focused on staying alive to be able to activate the life support capsules.

I think Survival should be more about surviving hordes of enemies than micromanaging life support. My fellow Tenno have suggested what I think are some awesome gameplay tweaks that could really invigorate the game mode: Slowly hamstringing the player by draining shields; making them move from room to room as enemies sabotage their own systems; adding timers that require players to accomplish a task before additional mayhem is released. These all sound more fun than just mowing down an endless number of mooks and the occasional heavy unit to collect their drops.

Another thing I dislike about survival is just how much DE likes to make us play it for good Void drops. I know some players (who aren't me) really love spending 40+ minutes in Survival, and I'm not suggesting we remove the game type, but can we please make survival less mandatory? We have 3 endless mission types already: Defense, Survival, and Interception. Can't we figure out some way of evenly distributing the good drops among these instead of cramming them in T4 Sur rotation C?

[(PSN)vinfive]

Stop sugarcoating. If you're gonna nerf PLS then come right out and say it. Don't feed me cake with broccoli in the batter. With that being said, whatever, its so slight it seems rather pointless.