So I Got Tired Of Mesa Complaints

[TheBrsrkr]

Nothing i said was bait, you just dont have a better response as to why EB is OP. You say his range makes him OP yet ignore a the negatives of the ability. Not to mention Trinity doesn't even have a range on her 4th, Novas is at least double and has no LoS and goes through walls. Loki is at least even to EB, but you dont want to pay attention to their OP 4ths, probably because they are your mains.

Literally everything you said was bait, because literally everything you're disputing was something I never said. Did I say that the range was OP? No, you said it was a melee ability, and I said melee abilities don't have a 40m range. You make unbased assumptions and somehow think that we should discuss every frame except Mesa in a thread about Mesa. So yes, this is bait, and very low quality bait at that.

[ThePrimarchSystem]

I've receated this with 20 Level 100 Corrupted Heavy Gunner Eximus. 

The result was success.

There is more to Mesa than Peacemaker.

 

Edited September 1, 2015 by ThePrimarchSystem

[Sibernetika]

if you people really want to nerf it that bad then reduce its range to a fixed 25 meters, and boosts its damage by a crap load to compensate, but leave the mechanics alone 

[-Vane-]

Now let us all take a moment to complain about op complaining about complaining. OP will most likely complain about my post. And then someone else will complain even more.

[RazrOutlaw]

if you people really want to nerf it that bad then reduce its range to a fixed 25 meters, and boosts its damage by a crap load to compensate, but leave the mechanics alone 

The people crying for nerfs to her are just complaining because of draco making things to easy for newer players, veterans are salty that a new player with only 6 months has already reached rank 17, altough this are just a few persons the impact it caused on the communitty was huge, I would love that the duration mesa players would have such importance as the ones complaining about her.

PS: this is a really nice solution and it would be still a great ability for defense missions, changing what make her strong (her range, altough I would prefer the rework on maps like draco better) and buffing what she lacks.

[LordChronos]

So you then make a thread about Mesa complaints... Nice.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

I will go out on a limb and support you here. I am a big fan of Mesa...all four of her abilities. And if you look at my profile she isn't even my main go to frame. And I'm going on record saying I don't mind peacemaker one bit. I play sechura A LOT so when I can do 5 and out in the least amount of time and there's a Mesa willing to oblige me...I'm more then happy. So I say keep her the way she is.

[Culaio]

Lots of people want "turret" ult to be removed from mesa and replaced with something like excalibur extalted blade, I personally would HATE that, mesa ult is reason why I got that frame: I wanted to do cool gunkata stuff like in equilibrium movie, but I believe it is possible to satisfy both fans of "turret" ult and people who want extalted blade-like ult, instead of replacing one with another lets make that mesa ult has both "turret" and mobile mods, how could it work:

when you press 4 you enter mobile version of ult, and by pressing one of buttons you switch to turret mode which works like current ult(but with less ridiculous range) turret mode would be used for enemies that surrounded you, and by pressing button again you would switch back to mobile mode.

 

I mentioned this idea in another topicabout mesa ult rework and one guy(FelisImpurrator) in the thread created his own idea kinda based on my concept, here is his idea: 

 

How about this:

-Peacemaker is moddable (with its own UI separate from your secondary; it shows as an 'extra secondary'), is likely a crit weapon, has a magazine but reloads extremely quickly (ballpark range - Vectis Prime reload). Other abilities can be cast freely.

 

-Either it's a channeling ability, and energy restrictions apply just like EB, or it's like Provoke and each shot consumes energy (scaling with efficiency - and possibly with "max spare ammo" mods). But considering it has much longer range than EB, it should probably be balanced to not be sustainable forever. Hard cap?

 

-When you activate the ult, holding down LMB while stationary does the same thing as old Peacemaker but at short (less than half) range.(this part I dont completly agree with I believe its too short)

 

-Aiming down sights triggers the alternate mode, which is the headhunting mode with slow I described - both pistols manual. Slower movement speed, weakspot highlight, huge multiplier (OR dealing finisher, to get past armor) on heads, cone slow scaling with range and strength (with minimum range and slow; no Speed Nova effect).

 

-Running and parkour are enabled, and shooting without ADS but while moving triggers a hybrid mode where one pistol auto-aims (half fire rate since it's one, and also short range), and the other is manual (full range and gets the headshot bonuses, possibly slowing the enemy that's directly under your sights, but also half fire rate.)

 

-Auto-aim will also try to seek out heads like Deconstructor, but of course it shouldn't be perfect.

 

The idea being - good aim is rewarded massively, but bad reflexes aren't punished excessively. The ability should have short, long, and medium range options respectively, and incentives to go mobile/exert effort in using it. A gunslinger should be able to mow down enemies at short range, but also hunt heads at a distance, picking out the weak spots in the hardest targets before they get close enough to engage. At the same time, the ability shouldn't be an eternal killzone sustained by a team of single purpose energy feeders, brutally overpowered at low levels and next to useless at high levels where lazy farmers would just quit and restart.

 

 

 

We then further expanded on his idea:

-mesa ult turret mode should decrease amount of bullet hitting us since one of important factor's about gunkata in equilibrium is that its supposed keep you outside of enemy lines of  fire.

-regulators in ult also replace melee weapons, so we could hit enemies with our guns and do combos of hitting and shooting, kinda like Redeemer weapon in warframe.(Custom gunkata stance)

 

 

[RazrOutlaw]

 

Lots of people want "turret" ult to be removed from mesa and replaced with something like excalibur extalted blade, I personally would HATE that, mesa ult is reason why I got that frame: I wanted to do cool gunkata stuff like in equilibrium movie, but I believe it is possible to satisfy both fans of "turret" ult and people who want extalted blade-like ult, instead of replacing one with another lets make that mesa ult has both "turret" and mobile mods, how could it work:

when you press 4 you enter mobile version of ult, and by pressing one of buttons you switch to turret mode which works like current ult(but with less ridiculous range) turret mode would be used for enemies that surrounded you, and by pressing button again you would switch back to mobile mode.

 

I mentioned this idea in another topicabout mesa ult rework and one guy(FelisImpurrator) in the thread created his own idea kinda based on my concept, here is his idea: 

 

How about this:

-Peacemaker is moddable (with its own UI separate from your secondary; it shows as an 'extra secondary'), is likely a crit weapon, has a magazine but reloads extremely quickly (ballpark range - Vectis Prime reload). Other abilities can be cast freely.

 

-Either it's a channeling ability, and energy restrictions apply just like EB, or it's like Provoke and each shot consumes energy (scaling with efficiency - and possibly with "max spare ammo" mods). But considering it has much longer range than EB, it should probably be balanced to not be sustainable forever. Hard cap?

 

-When you activate the ult, holding down LMB while stationary does the same thing as old Peacemaker but at short (less than half) range.(this part I dont completly agree with I believe its too short)

 

-Aiming down sights triggers the alternate mode, which is the headhunting mode with slow I described - both pistols manual. Slower movement speed, weakspot highlight, huge multiplier (OR dealing finisher, to get past armor) on heads, cone slow scaling with range and strength (with minimum range and slow; no Speed Nova effect).

 

-Running and parkour are enabled, and shooting without ADS but while moving triggers a hybrid mode where one pistol auto-aims (half fire rate since it's one, and also short range), and the other is manual (full range and gets the headshot bonuses, possibly slowing the enemy that's directly under your sights, but also half fire rate.)

 

-Auto-aim will also try to seek out heads like Deconstructor, but of course it shouldn't be perfect.

 

The idea being - good aim is rewarded massively, but bad reflexes aren't punished excessively. The ability should have short, long, and medium range options respectively, and incentives to go mobile/exert effort in using it. A gunslinger should be able to mow down enemies at short range, but also hunt heads at a distance, picking out the weak spots in the hardest targets before they get close enough to engage. At the same time, the ability shouldn't be an eternal killzone sustained by a team of single purpose energy feeders, brutally overpowered at low levels and next to useless at high levels where lazy farmers would just quit and restart.

 

 

 

We then further expanded on his idea:

-mesa ult turret mode should decrease amount of bullet hitting us since one of important factor's about gunkata in equilibrium is that its supposed keep you outside of enemy lines of  fire.

-regulators in ult also replace melee weapons, so we could hit enemies with our guns and do combos of hitting and shooting, kinda like Redeemer weapon in warframe.(Custom gunkata stance)

 

 

I think DE gave mesa that range because peacemake is still a line of sight ability, while everyone like's the idea of the EB like rework I personally think it's bad, for two reasons

Number 1: we really don't need the same ability twice, It would kill the fun and unique feeling you get when using excalibur, because mesa would be the same, just with a pair of pistols

Number 2: Do people don't realize how op this would be? I mean, everyone that plays excal knows how strong EB is, now, if mesa ults gets reworked like this, she will most likely get even less drain than excalibur, because she wouldn't be able to lifesteal while chanelling her ult, like excalibur does, so you'll need the extra energy to cast shooting gallery & shatter shield, also making it like excalibur EB would mean that mesa's gonna be able to cast all of her abilities while her ult is toggled, do you imagine the power of Ballistic battery?, not to mention how secondary mods are broken, and some secondary's are even better than primary weapons, imagine you run a mesa, with full efficiency, max transient fortitude + intensify, with a max arcane awakening on her helmet + her syandana, and with a lex prime (71.8% crit chance, 3.2x crit multiplier, 6k base damage with elemental and physical damages) and add ballistic battery to the mix, are you guys ready to see those 10 million crit with a warframe ability?. Then the circle begins again, nerf mesa, too op, blah blah blah.

She is fine as she is, people just need to get over it.

[Culaio]

I think DE gave mesa that range because peacemake is still a line of sight ability, while everyone like's the idea of the EB like rework I personally think it's bad, for two reasons

Number 1: we really don't need the same ability twice, It would kill the fun and unique feeling you get when using excalibur, because mesa would be the same, just with a pair of pistols

Number 2: Do people don't realize how op this would be? I mean, everyone that plays excal knows how strong EB is, now, if mesa ults gets reworked like this, she will most likely get even less drain than excalibur, because she wouldn't be able to lifesteal while chanelling her ult, like excalibur does, so you'll need the extra energy to cast shooting gallery & shatter shield, also making it like excalibur EB would mean that mesa's gonna be able to cast all of her abilities while her ult is toggled, do you imagine the power of Ballistic battery?, not to mention how secondary mods are broken, and some secondary's are even better than primary weapons, imagine you run a mesa, with full efficiency, max transient fortitude + intensify, with a max arcane awakening on her helmet + her syandana, and with a lex prime (71.8% crit chance, 3.2x crit multiplier, 6k base damage with elemental and physical damages) and add ballistic battery to the mix, are you guys ready to see those 10 million crit with a warframe ability?. Then the circle begins again, nerf mesa, too op, blah blah blah.

She is fine as she is, people just need to get over it.

 

Huh ? Of course I agree making it exactly like extalted blade would destroy it uniques but if you read the idea from my post you would realize that this idea is to make it DIFFERENT from extalted blade. I LIKE current ULT but the problem is that after while of using it, it gets boring which leads to me switching to another frame pretty soon, so yeah as a fan of gunkata I like it but holding button for a while is getting boring I would want to be able to incorporate its ult with normal gun fights, lets not forget that her ult doesnt scale really well to end game but if scaled better then it would become OP on open maps like draco..

 

Most of your worries about it being OP can be adressed by balancing it properly.

[RazrOutlaw]

Huh ? Of course I agree making it exactly like extalted blade would destroy it uniques but if you read the idea from my post you would realize that this idea is to make it DIFFERENT from extalted blade. I LIKE current ULT but the problem is that after while of using it, it gets boring which leads to me switching to another frame pretty soon, so yeah as a fan of gunkata I like it but holding button for a while is getting boring I would want to be able to incorporate its ult with normal gun fights, lets not forget that her ult doesnt scale really well to end game but if scaled better then it would become OP on open maps like draco..

 

Most of your worries about it being OP can be adressed by balancing it properly.

I did read your post about having the old peacemaker and the rework at the same time, whie I think this is a solution that would please both the stationary mesa fans and the ones that want the exalted pistols, there will still be complains about her ult, just because of draco, so my suggestion is go ahead, implement this changes to her ult, make it so the people that complain about 1 of her four abilities doesn't require any of the players effort enjoy using her, while keeping the defensive turret everyone loves, that would be kinda complex, It'd be like having 5 abilities in one frame, but since equinox is here, this can for a fact happen, just don't nerf, change, rework anything of the normal peacemaker, the problem isn't the ability, it's just how it suits for maps like draco, then, the maps are the ones that need rework, would you imagine if draco had walls all around that tiny box everyone camps on? or if it was like the orokin interception? no one would take mesa there, ever again, or at least not with the stationary peacemaker build.

[mistninja314]

Where's the room where this video was taken? I want to test out some of my weapons also >_<

[Wolfdoggie]

You just added an extra reason to have her deleted.

[RazrOutlaw]

Where's the room where this video was taken? I want to test out some of my weapons also >_<

That room is the simulacrum, to gain access to it you need to buy the key from cephalon simaris at your nearest relay for only 50,000 standing, once you've done this you can access to it in the left part of simaris simulacrum (close to the door)

[JDP04]

i personally love when people spam mesa's ult.. i really love to watch her obliterate enemies lol. The affinity that i got when in the end of mission are just icing on the cake. :)

But thats maybe because i enjoy playing as support. :D

[Cpl_Facehugger]

So...lvl 95 Heavy Gunners are endgame? Since when? Even friggin raids have less tanky and broken enemies. 

 

Raids start at level 70 and push past level 105 at some points. Level 95 heavy gunners are wouldn't be out of place in raids.

[Rakosta_Kai]

 

I can see it now one day people will call for Tonkor nerfs all over the show.. " I was running melee only and someone with a Tokor killed everything in 1 shot before I got there pls nerf"

 

Already happening... will happen more when others get bored of the lols with it

 

 

Absent all that....

 

Mesa is a great solo frame(good) and a dream for farmers and bots (bad), but not that fun for team members that want to contribute in all aspects (kiss of death).

Peacemaker is going to get adjusted at some point...

 

The hope is that it gets re-worked into something fun as opposed to merely being nerfed through the floor.

[Sibernetika]

if they really want to change it just reduce its range and buff its damage, dont make it another excal... we will see mesa running all over the place with regulators all the time, and then we will see everyone complaining too powerful please nerf >.>

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

Literally everything you said was bait, because literally everything you're disputing was something I never said. Did I say that the range was OP? No, you said it was a melee ability, and I said melee abilities don't have a 40m range. You make unbased assumptions and somehow think that we should discuss every frame except Mesa in a thread about Mesa. So yes, this is bait, and very low quality bait at that.

His 4th IS a melee ability, LOL like are you serious? Mesa's nerf/rework is requested because of her synergy with other frames.I have made 0 assumptions and stated multiple facts. You obviously just want to ignore all my facts/defense so this conversation is pointless. You're stuck on changing 1 frame with zero basis tht she has alone. Her 4th's problem is a problem multiple frames have but you only want to scream Mesa, so im done, goodbye.

[Oriviagene]

Lol those players that complains a lot wants free potato but doesn't want free loot generated by mesa

Very smart....NOT

[vaugahn]

if they really want to change it just reduce its range and buff its damage, dont make it another excal... we will see mesa running all over the place with regulators all the time, and then we will see everyone complaining too powerful please nerf >.>

 

Since you've decided to forget about it, I'll say it again: Mesa's problem does not stem from any stat attached to Peacemaker. The problem is with the design of the ability itself. Changing stats around will just make it into a differently-statted version of a bad ability, it won't fix anything. An outright nerf or buff for Peacemaker is a terrible idea.

[Mac2492]

Note that OP explicitly mentioned Peacemaker and called out everyone who says it's overpowered, so the Peacemaker discussion is justified.

 

The key issue that people have with Peacemaker isn't the strength of the skill. It's not even that strong. The issue with Peacemaker is that it's either non-interactive and trivializes gameplay (low/mid levels) or it's simply useless (high levels). The player is essentially playing the game without playing while everyone else in the room is forced to do the same. Whether or not this hampers "fun" is subjective, but I don't believe most people enjoy doing nothing during their gaming sessions. Against higher level enemies it's absolutely useless. This is why people want it reworked. When it works it trivializes the game, but when it doesn't it's useless.

 

"Peacemaker is for early game to mid game where you want to rush through all of the cannon fodder to get to the real fun part"

 

Peacemaker is for when you want to rush through the game. While I don't believe it's good design to create skills that allow players to bypass a huge portion of your game, I also don't have any issue if players take advantage of such skills to get to the point of the game that's more fun to them. The problem arises when you have players in your squad who don't feel the same way. Place yourself in others' shoes. The first few runs might be amazing free loot yay, but how long can you really enjoy sitting in rooms where you literally do nothing but pickup items because you can't even look at an enemy before it's vaporized by Peacemaker? This isn't even an exaggeration. In any mission where Peacemaker is useful, it's too useful and doing anything aside from supporting Mesa or using Desecrate/Frost Globe serves no real purpose.

 

The rest of Mesa's kit is fine. That's why no one really complains about it. I feel like the ones who want Mesa completely removed/reworked simply don't know how to express their frustrations with Peacemaker properly.

 

Just keep in mind that everyone has different ideas of fun. It's not that you shouldn't have fun, but sometimes you need to talk amongst your team so that you aren't ruining the experience for three other people. If you like playing Mesa without Peacemaker, just ignore the jerks who insult you for it. You aren't doing anything wrong. If you like playing Mesa with Peacemaker, just realize that your team may or may not appreciate you playing the game for them. As with most things in life, it comes down to "don't be a jerk".

[RazrOutlaw]

Note that OP explicitly mentioned Peacemaker and called out everyone who says it's overpowered, so the Peacemaker discussion is justified.

 

The key issue that people have with Peacemaker isn't the strength of the skill. It's not even that strong. The issue with Peacemaker is that it's either non-interactive and trivializes gameplay (low/mid levels) or it's simply useless (high levels). The player is essentially playing the game without playing while everyone else in the room is forced to do the same. Whether or not this hampers "fun" is subjective, but I don't believe most people enjoy doing nothing during their gaming sessions. Against higher level enemies it's absolutely useless. This is why people want it reworked. When it works it trivializes the game, but when it doesn't it's useless.

 

"Peacemaker is for early game to mid game where you want to rush through all of the cannon fodder to get to the real fun part"

 

Peacemaker is for when you want to rush through the game. While I don't believe it's good design to create skills that allow players to bypass a huge portion of your game, I also don't have any issue if players take advantage of such skills to get to the point of the game that's more fun to them. The problem arises when you have players in your squad who don't feel the same way. Place yourself in others' shoes. The first few runs might be amazing free loot yay, but how long can you really enjoy sitting in rooms where you literally do nothing but pickup items because you can't even look at an enemy before it's vaporized by Peacemaker? This isn't even an exaggeration. In any mission where Peacemaker is useful, it's too useful and doing anything aside from supporting Mesa or using Desecrate/Frost Globe serves no real purpose.

 

The rest of Mesa's kit is fine. That's why no one really complains about it. I feel like the ones who want Mesa completely removed/reworked simply don't know how to express their frustrations with Peacemaker properly.

 

Just keep in mind that everyone has different ideas of fun. It's not that you shouldn't have fun, but sometimes you need to talk amongst your team so that you aren't ruining the experience for three other people. If you like playing Mesa without Peacemaker, just ignore the jerks who insult you for it. You aren't doing anything wrong. If you like playing Mesa with Peacemaker, just realize that your team may or may not appreciate you playing the game for them. As with most things in life, it comes down to "don't be a jerk".

 Non-interactive and trivializes gameplay, but that is the main problem with all the other 4th abilities in warframe, the only way they differ with mesa is you are able to move, but it doesn't require more intelligence than pressing a button, so I think people complaining about peacemaker should take a moment to check all the other fourth abilities in warframe, they are all brainded press 4 to win (or press 4 and spam E), I highly agree on asking your teammates if they'd like you to use peacemaker, I've joined pubs on sechura as mesa, and I always asked them if they want me to turret the way to the 5th round, cause maybe I'm messing with their effigy or they just like to slice up infested.

[DxAdder]

A cool down for peacemaker then we can go apply this solution to other frames to "balance them"

[vaugahn]

  I think people complaining about peacemaker should take a moment to check all the other fourth abilities in warframe

 

Let's look at every ability in the game and ask ourselves one simple question:

 

Does this ability lock me in place and prevent me from using my controls for a minute and a half?

 

If the answer is yes, that ability has a problem. If the answer is no, that ability may still have problems, but it doesn't have the problem of being completely mindless.