Solution Against Runners Without Lowering The Ttk

[ZeroSample]

 

jump to 7:45

 

escaping in quake is part of the game too, and theres very high TTKs too, still, if that is desirable or not, is a decision, not a law, also in quake you loot weapons, so your ttk and mechanics are tied to what you can grab instead of what you choose, and dont forget that wf`s chases are happening in 4v4 maps, if there where 1v1 maps the thing should be a lot different

 

Well,there seem to be 2 major differences, that need to be considered.

First of all, the mobility of that game seems to come mainly from the map designs.

There are teleporters and all maps seem to have mutiple stages.

The characters themselves, seem to only be able to do regular jumps and walk/run.

Warframe's mobility on the other hand, comes from the individual mobility,the game features.

Warframes are able to move around eratically,in various ways.

A higher TTk would make it that much harder to get kills, at all.

The 2nd difference that should be considered, is the fact that the matches include objectives.

(i.e. the weapons and other items ,such as armor,that give you a clear advantage over the opponent

 and that you don't want them to have,if possible.)

Those objectives enable you to force fights and let you get ahead,if you control them.

In Warframe on the other hand, there're no such things.

There's no noteable penalty for just running away and only choosing the fights, you can win easily.

Note that i have never played the game showcased.

This is merely what i gathered, from the parts of the video I watched.

If I'm mistaken on those points, feel free to enlighten me.

Edited September 11, 2015 by ZeroSample

[Murph_HKM]

Well,there seem to be 2 major differences, that need to be considered.

First of all, the mobility of that game seems to come mainly from the map designs.

There are teleporters and all maps seem to have mutiple stages.

The characters themselves, seem to only be able to do regular jumps and walk/run.

Warframe's mobility on the other hand, comes from the individual mobility,the game features.

Warframes are able to move around eratically,in various ways.

A higher TTk would make it that much harder to get kills, at all.

The 2nd difference that should be considered, is the fact that the matches include objectives.

(i.e. the weapons and other items such as armor,

that give you a clear advantage over the opponent and don't want them to have,if possible.)

Those objectives enable you to force fights and let you get ahead,if you control them.

In Warframe on the other hand, there're no such things.

There's no penalty for just running away and only choosing the fights, you can win easily.

Note, that i have never played the game showcased.

This is merely what i gathered, from the parts of the video I watched.

If I'm mistaken on those points, feel free to enlighten me.

Your points aren't invalid, but WF does have all those things that allow you to force fights. They're just bundled into one thing called energy.

If you try to run away and don't grab any energy and allow your opponent to build up large quantities, you're going to get rekt due to some of the super lame ultimates we have (I'm talking about the ridiculously huge AoE's and such). 

 

[-InV-igo95862]

Let's not bring CS into the discussion because it's clearly in an irrelevant genre (just like we don't talk about Starcraft here). 

 

As for UT, OK it's also the God of video games. Who says video games can only have one god ...

 

UT also has tactical retreat -- this video, filled with players taking shots, running away, coming back, etc.: 

 

 

 

If by tactical retreat you mean a trade of shots when yes there is a plenty of tactical retreat. However, what happens in Warframe is not a tactical retreat in that meaning. In Warframe you can do full mode "RUN AWAY" and the enemy will only see your heels.

 

 

Weaker frames should have better abilities, e.g. Mag has better abilities than Ash or Rhino. Excalibur (used to) have better abilities than Rhino or Frost.

 

But the forum has more complaints about abilities than about EHP. So abilities are constantly nerfed and nerfed and nerfed to the point that every frame has mediocre abilities. 

 

Everyone should have powerful abilities. This is what makes frames different. Frost is named Frost because his Freeze, Ice Wave, Snowglobe and Avalanche has a common theme of snow and cold. Right now the name "Highest EHP" is more suitable to him. I barely cast anything playing him.

 

 

Your points aren't invalid, but WF does have all those things that allow you to force fights. They're just bundled into one thing called energy.

If you try to run away and don't grab any energy and allow your opponent to build up large quantities, you're going to get rekt due to some of the super lame ultimates we have (I'm talking about the ridiculously huge AoE's and such). 

 

 

The only instant kill ultimate left is Hysteria. Everything else was pretty much nerfed.

[Murph_HKM]

 

 

 

The only instant kill ultimate left is Hysteria. Everything else was pretty much nerfed.

Instagibs aren't the only indication that something is stupid.

Playing against someone who plays a Frost and spams their slow while hiding in a small room, or a Rhino who gathers energy and repeatedly uses Stomp in a closed space, or an Excalibur who only engages in a confined area with Exalted Blade.

 

I'm not saying they're "broken", but I'm saying if you don't contest the energy at all and are playing against an even skilled play who gathers all the energy, you're going to get canned.

[ZeroSample]

Your points aren't invalid, but WF does have all those things that allow you to force fights. They're just bundled into one thing called energy.

If you try to run away and don't grab any energy and allow your opponent to build up large quantities, you're going to get rekt due to some of the super lame ultimates we have (I'm talking about the ridiculously huge AoE's and such). 

 

That's what the "noteable penalty" was for.

Keep in mind, there are several ways to get your hands on energy.

We generate erergy by ourselves, slowly but surely.

In theory, it's entirely possible to just run and hide until your energy bar is filled to the max.

There's also the possibility of getting energy via kills.

Not to mention, mods that give you energy bonuses.

Also, most of the abilities can't compare to what seems to be given, in the other game's objectives.

I mean, just imagine objectives unlocking a sechura penta,giving you max overshields or straight out doubling your hp.

That's definitely not something you'd hand out to the opponent,without a fight.

Edited September 11, 2015 by ZeroSample

[elele]

Everyone should have powerful abilities. This is what makes frames different. Frost is named Frost because his Freeze, Ice Wave, Snowglobe and Avalanche has a common theme of snow and cold. Right now the name "Highest EHP" is more suitable to him. I barely cast anything playing him.

 

"Powerful" as in "squishy frames having high-dmg easy-targeting abilities to take down tanks" and "tanks having low-dmg abilities for CC support, area denial etc." 

 

Like in every proper PVP game with multiple classes: 

 

glass cannons (low EHP, high dmg)

tanks (high EHP, low dmg)

 

So for example Rhino is pretty well balanced against Mag. Volt is pretty balanced against Ash. 

 

The only problem is Frost, because he's simply better than Rhino. Therefore no reason to play Rhino if you have Frost. 

[elele]

In Warframe you can do full mode "RUN AWAY" and the enemy will only see your heels.

 

In 1v1 this tactic is pointless: if one cannot win a fight, he still can't win a fight even after he runs away and comes back. 

 

In 4v4 of course people will "run away" from harder fights and pick on easier targets. Don't think there is anything wrong with that.

[(PSN)Double991]

Running and dueling IS the pace of the game. Just like BF3 is not "slowed down" because you need to run a hundred meters to the frontline. 

 

If fast pace is what you're looking for, there is always COD. 

 

If the game has to end by time limit because people were running away, then there's a problem. You won't get much rep in a kill based mode if all you do is run away.

 

In battlefield you have vehicles to get around quick as well as various spawn points you can select. I'm not a CoD person.

[-InV-igo95862]

"Powerful" as in "squishy frames having high-dmg easy-targeting abilities to take down tanks" and "tanks having low-dmg abilities for CC support, area denial etc." 

 

Like in every proper PVP game with multiple classes: 

 

glass cannons (low EHP, high dmg)

tanks (high EHP, low dmg)

 

So for example Rhino is pretty well balanced against Mag. Volt is pretty balanced against Ash. 

 

The only problem is Frost, because he's simply better than Rhino. Therefore no reason to play Rhino if you have Frost. 

 

You know that PvP game with multiple classes also have movespeed differences. In Team Fortress 2 Heavy is far slower then Scout. Right now Warframe has no movespeed difference. (since most movespeed comes from Parkour 2.0 which is equally fast for everyone)

 

The fact that you compare different frames against each other only shows the lack of uniqueness between them. Rhino should not be same as Frost. He should be different.

 

Rhino is offensive tank. Cast Iron Skin, Charge in to enemies, Roar to deal more damage, Stomp to kill fleeing opponents.

Frost is defensive tank. Cast Snowglobe, defend it with Ice Wave and Freeze, cast Avalanche if someone dared to come in.

 

But here is a problem. You can't cast all 4 abilities that makes your frame different. To cast all 4 abilities you need 250 energy but the limit is 100.

 

I have long suggested a system with more efficiency on abilities but limited with cooldown to prevent spamming. In it Volt could really be Volt since he will cast lightnings of different sorts, Frost could really be Frost since he will use ice and snow in various ways...

[Murph_HKM]

You know that PvP game with multiple classes also have movespeed differences. In Team Fortress 2 Heavy is far slower then Scout. Right now Warframe has no movespeed difference. (since most movespeed comes from Parkour 2.0 which is equally fast for everyone)

 

The fact that you compare different frames against each other only shows the lack of uniqueness between them. Rhino should not be same as Frost. He should be different.

 

Rhino is offensive tank. Cast Iron Skin, Charge in to enemies, Roar to deal more damage, Stomp to kill fleeing opponents.

Frost is defensive tank. Cast Snowglobe, defend it with Ice Wave and Freeze, cast Avalanche if someone dared to come in.

 

But here is a problem. You can't cast all 4 abilities that makes your frame different. To cast all 4 abilities you need 250 energy but the limit is 100.

 

I have long suggested a system with more efficiency on abilities but limited with cooldown to prevent spamming. In it Volt could really be Volt since he will cast lightnings of different sorts, Frost could really be Frost since he will use ice and snow in various ways...

This would actually be kinda cool

[Lord_Noctus]

EHP and skillbalance would be easier i guess if tankier frames would get their speed and bulletjump reach nerfed.

[JonBenj]

EHP and skillbalance would be easier i guess if tankier frames would get their speed and bulletjump reach nerfed.

 

Pity things like this can't be implemented for trial. I'd like to see how that goes. Although as i main Ash Prime and im sure he would come under the tank catergory, i would'nt like a nerf to mobility i'd rather his survivability stats reduced.

 

Initially i was against your suggestion, and i am in the way that you first suggested, but i now see that running is a thing, especially against decent players who run with the tough frames.

[Aggh]

 

jump to 7:45

 

escaping in quake is part of the game too, and theres very high TTKs too, still, if that is desirable or not, is a decision, not a law, also in quake you loot weapons, so your ttk and mechanics are tied to what you can grab instead of what you choose, and dont forget that wf`s chases are happening in 4v4 maps, if there where 1v1 maps the thing should be a lot different

Dueling in quake has a lot more resource management and timing to it than warframe.  In quake you need to memorize and take optimal routes to health/armor spawns throughout the match while trying to kill your opponent.  It's an essential part of the game and adds actual depth because of the timing and memorization it requires. 

 

In warframe you just run back to one of ~3 health spawns on the map any time you're losing a fight.  It's just a restart on your health.  Anyone can do it, it requires little knowledge and very little skill to do so due to movement animations, weapon accuracy and the ttk on high ehp frames.

[Lord_Noctus]

 

u still have ash :D

[JonBenj]

u still have ash :D

 

I know, I'm a boring aged player who doesn't like change and isn't fast enough to chop and change between frames like you youngsters hahaha.

 

I like Ash's situational powers which you can't rely on - Well Blade Storm is a bit of a crutch sometimes.

Edited September 11, 2015 by JonBenj

[rockscl]

Dueling in quake has a lot more resource management and timing to it than warframe.  In quake you need to memorize and take optimal routes to health/armor spawns throughout the match while trying to kill your opponent.  It's an essential part of the game and adds actual depth because of the timing and memorization it requires. 

 

In warframe you just run back to one of ~3 health spawns on the map any time you're losing a fight.  It's just a restart on your health.  Anyone can do it, it requires little knowledge and very little skill to do so due to movement animations, weapon accuracy and the ttk on high ehp frames.

 

well, like i said, we are looking at 1v1 situations that are played in 4v4 maps, in un-even matches, so, bring that dedicated server, i know it will be soon tm

[elele]

Rhino is offensive tank. Cast Iron Skin, Charge in to enemies, Roar to deal more damage, Stomp to kill fleeing opponents.

Frost is defensive tank. Cast Snowglobe, defend it with Ice Wave and Freeze, cast Avalanche if someone dared to come in.

 

Except there is nothing to "defend" in this game. 

 

People tried the snowglobe tactic and nobody liked it because everyone hates camping. 

 

Maybe when the objective-based game modes are introduced, Frost and Rhino can have different roles. ATM they're just two tanks, one better than the other. 

[Lordricker]

Well at least they gave rhino a mod. But before the start trying to make the frames with in the tank category different I think they should make the light vs tank frames different

[Aggh]

I think a nice start would be setting all prime frames to the same stats as their normal counter parts.

 

well, like i said, we are looking at 1v1 situations that are played in 4v4 maps, in un-even matches, so, bring that dedicated server, i know it will be soon tm

Dedi servers won't change how mind numbingly boring it is chasing down kills all game because ehp, movement animations, health drop and ttk balance all make running for a health drop an incredibly easy way to reset any fight you're losing.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Aggh

[elele]

how mind numbingly boring it is chasing down kills 

 

Chasing is part of the fun. 

 

I don't want COD-style fights AKA "you shoot him first you win".

[Aggh]

Chasing is part of the fun. 

 

I don't want COD-style fights AKA "you shoot him first you win".

If it actually took some skill/calculated decision making to run you'd have a point.  But every time I chase down someone I know it's because they aren't willing to fight it out and would rather just go get a reset for a second try.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Aggh

[elele]

If it actually took some skill/calculated decision making to run you'd have a point.  But every time I chase down someone I know it's because they aren't willing to fight it out and would rather just go get a reset for a second try.

 

So you chase them down like they're rabbits. If you can pwn them the first time, you sure can pwn them the second time. 

 

This game's PVE content is centered around "one-shotting stupid enemies that stand still". It's nice to have a PVP mode where you have to chase and shoot a target running all over the place. 

[Lord_Noctus]

Chasing is part of the fun. 

 

I don't want COD-style fights AKA "you shoot him first you win".

would only end like that if we make lower ttk with a roll (if u take my idea) u can still dodge to cover and then go for running away to refill hp. its just that its waaay to easy right now

Edited September 12, 2015 by Lord_Noctus

[-InV-igo95862]

Except there is nothing to "defend" in this game. 

 

People tried the snowglobe tactic and nobody liked it because everyone hates camping. 

 

Maybe when the objective-based game modes are introduced, Frost and Rhino can have different roles. ATM they're just two tanks, one better than the other. 

 

There are plenty of stuff to defend. You can camp in Anihilation around some points like in corridors or on energy spawns. In CtC you can defend with stolen cephalon. As much as you hate camping it is still a legitimate strategy.

 

Chasing is part of the fun. 

 

I don't want COD-style fights AKA "you shoot him first you win".

 

Except that you can't chase. The person running away is in advantage. Shooting will slow you down allowing them to escape.

 

 

So you chase them down like they're rabbits. If you can pwn them the first time, you sure can pwn them the second time. 

 

Except next time they can pwn you! Unless there is a massive difference in skill level. Engagements are not directed by same scenario over and over again. Even MR0 can kill me with lucky ground slam.

[elele]

 

Except that you can't chase. The person running away is in advantage. Shooting will slow you down allowing them to escape.

 

.

But if they don't shoot back (cuz shooting slows down escape) you're at advantage because you'r damaging them without them damaging you?

Even after they grab an HP orb, you can still kill them. Takes a while for orb to respawn.