Energy (And Health) Regeneration

[Asgir]

This has been brought up a few times already, but since i could not find any hints that changes are planned, i decided to bring it up again:

 

I don't like the way how energy does not naturally regenerate but instead has to be replenished by picking up blue orbs that are dropped by enemies. The reason why i don't like this is twofold (and i am quite aware that both arguments have already been brought up in similar form some time ago)

 

1. The way how it feels lore wise:

So you have this cool warframe with all kinds of cool abilities - except that you actually don't. Before you can really use those abilities, you first have to kill some enemies and pick up their blue orbs. So it feels more like you actually channel their power and not yours, which you can do because they are nice enough to deliver it to you.

 

2. The way it plays:

Of course this is highly subjective, but to me this mechanic feels very clumsy and detrimental to a fluent and fun gameplay. I don't want to decide which abilities i can use how often depending on how many blue orbs are randomly dropped by enemies -  I want to decide that only based on my warframe loadout.

In my opinion there is a good reason why this mechanic (mana/energy does not regenerate but instead has to be replenished by potions or something similar) has been abandoned by almost all games since early 2000.

 

So in my opinion the best approach would be to cut out the blue orbs all together and replace them the with a relatively quick (modifiable) innate energy regeneration.

If you don't feel the same way, i think you should still consider to at least add a slight innate energy regeneration (perhaps on the level of energy siphon) to address point 1 and a bit of point 2.

 

 

Without going into details here, i think a slow innate health regeneration would also be beneficial.

edit:

Good reasoning for health regen from this thread:

 

Yeah but not everyone mains Trin man :/ you gotta account for the fact that not all players will have lifestrike, health pads, or a healer on their team. Even if you don't take any serious damage you're guaranteed to die eventually due to slash/toxin procs, it's just going to happen and there's no way around that. If you give the player slight health regen then you aren't screwed if you don't have lifestrike or health pads. and besides we're trying to stray away from mandatory mods on builds (the whole damage/multi-shot being constantly used issue) so we shouldn't have to always plan around having lifestrike or heal pads. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Asgir

[LilLemay]

I wouldn't be against a very slow regeneration of both, as long as it was as slow as an un-ranked energy siphon/rejuvenation depending on which resource you're talking about, that way the regeneration of it isn't too fast.

[(PSN)AngelShur]

By adding the right Aura Mod you can regenrate energy

 

Energy Siphon

Edited September 30, 2015 by (PS4)AngelShur

[FaintestAura]

It can be a bit troublesome when combined with either rejuvenation or energy siphon. I believe energy orbs exist  to prevent abuse of powers from press 4 to win frames.

Edited September 30, 2015 by FaintestAura

[Anatolius]

By adding the right Aura Mod you can regenrate energy

 

Energy Siphon

but that doesnt seem too fair to warframes that were destined with a V polarity

which honestly got the short end of the stick to some people (cept Ash I guess)

It can be a bit troublesome when combined with either rejuvenation or energy siphon. I believe energy orbs exist  to prevent abuse of powers from press 4 to win frames.

unless they removed those aura all together and all aura polarities had something worth putting on

[Sync527]

That'd be nice tho, if they did that, I think they should keep the dropping orbs for a quicker regen...

[(PSN)AngelShur]

but that doesnt seem too fair to warframes that were destined with a V polarity

which honestly got the short end of the stick to some people (cept Ash I guess)

unless they removed those aura all together and all aura polarities had something worth putting on

 

1st: Forma

 

2nd: If... then... Yeah

[Marthrym]

I always thought innate health and energy regeneration were the best way to go, since most auras are made irrelevant by Energy siphon and Rejuvenation (with a side of Steel Charge for a few frames like Valkyr and now Ash) outside of endless modes where Corrosive Projection becomes unfortunately mandatory in most scenarii. So many aura mods are pointless and/or useless because of their rather underwhelming effects, it's sad really.

 

I'd give energy regen the same strength as with a maxed Energy Siphon, since it's slow enough, and many channeled abilities cancel its effect completely.

For health though I wouldn't use the equivalent of a maxed Rejuvenation, it would be too potent IMHO. A toned down effect would be nice though, especially for all the frames that do not have any way to regenerate health other than Life Strike or health pads. It would also alleviate slightly the early-game issues new players meet very often because of Bleed and poison procs.

 

We could also make it so that these innate effects either stop once a certain health percentage is reached, or slowed down even more. I don't want the few "healer" frames to feel redundant because of it. Though come to think of it, even with a Rejuv aura I am always happy to see a Trinity/Obi in the team.^^

Edited September 30, 2015 by Marthrym

[Sync527]

It can be a bit troublesome when combined with either rejuvenation or energy siphon. I believe energy orbs exist  to prevent abuse of powers from press 4 to win frames.

Would putting cooldown time on skills affect the feel of the game???

[Ada_Wong_SG]

Energy Siphon for Energy, Rejuvenation for HP.

Rage + Life Strike... for non healers

Or simply...  Energy Vampire, Blessing

 

My guess is all frames is pretty much useless without any energy, 
even with energy chances are you might be overwhelmed by enemies

and risk getting your shield and HP emptied 

Thus using Trinity as main, I solve the issue of being overwhelmed, as long as I have energy, 
I have HP and Shield, which might keep me alive better than peacemaker or exalted blade.

 

Or... just carry a few restores in case you are caught in a pinch 
 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Ada_Wong_SG

[FaintestAura]

Would putting cooldown time on skills affect the feel of the game???

Well considering the fast paced nature of this game, definitely 

[Bobtm]

I blame oldness for this one, but I prefer when health doesn't doesn't just passively regenerate.  Energy pools are another story where their passive regeneration or not is dependant on the game in question.

 

Within Warframe at the moment there's already an issue of energy being too abundant, so I can't say I'm on board with adding passive energy regeneration unless it's a super low number.  Like an unranked Energy Siphon for instance, but that low of a regen is practically irrelevant due to the general pacing of the game, so it'd feel like a mostly irrelevant addition.

 

For the health one, this whole staple of so many games where players just heal up from everything that doesn't kill them without having to really do anything is (purely in my opinion) just lazy.  So many games these days are trivially easy, and this whole infinite passive healing is a core part of the degredation in difficulty.

 

Basically I'm not in favor of the propoed additions of passive regeneration of these two pools.  Doesn't mean I'm right of course, but regardless it's my stance on this sort of thing.

[LilLemay]

Energy Siphon for Energy, Rejuvenation for HP.

Rage + Life Strike... for non healers

Or simply...  Energy Vampire, Blessing

 

My guess is all frames is pretty much useless without any energy, 

even with energy chances are you might be overwhelmed by enemies

and risk getting your shield and HP emptied 

Thus using Trinity as main, I solve the issue of being overwhelmed, as long as I have energy, 

I have HP and Shield, which might keep me alive better than peacemaker or exalted blade.

 

Yeah but not everyone mains Trin man :/ you gotta account for the fact that not all players will have lifestrike, health pads, or a healer on their team. Even if you don't take any serious damage you're guaranteed to die eventually due to slash/toxin procs, it's just going to happen and there's no way around that. If you give the player slight health regen then you aren't screwed if you don't have lifestrike or health pads. and besides we're trying to stray away from mandatory mods on builds (the whole damage/multi-shot being constantly used issue) so we shouldn't have to always plan around having lifestrike or heal pads. 

As far as energy goes sometimes people don't want to bring Energy Siphon, some people don't have it, and some frames just don't fit it. and unlike what AngelShur thinks we shouldn't have to forma a frame just to make the aura give us health or energy regeneration, and if you do that you have to choose either health OR energy, since the two have differing polarities

[Asgir]

I believe energy orbs exist  to prevent abuse of powers from press 4 to win frames.

I would argue that it is exact the other way round: the orbs are what allows you to abuse your abilities. If you depend on your energy regeneration, then you can only cast so many 4 per minute no matter how many enemies there or how lucky you are in them dropping orbs.

[LilLemay]

For the health one, this whole staple of so many games where players just heal up from everything that doesn't kill them without having to really do anything is (purely in my opinion) just lazy.  So many games these days are trivially easy, and this whole infinite passive healing is a core part of the degredation in difficulty.

 

While I agree that it would make the game easier, I do think that there should be some sort of health regeneration, or like I said, assuming you're doing and endless mission and you don't take any serious hits, you're guaranteed to die at some point due to toxin/bleed and there's no way around that without healing

[Sync527]

Well considering the fast paced nature of this game, definitely 

Even if the CDs are only on the ults? and the cooldowns don't have to be long as in MOBA long...

[Asgir]

While I agree that it would make the game easier, I do think that there should be some sort of health regeneration, or like I said, assuming you're doing and endless mission and you don't take any serious hits, you're guaranteed to die at some point due to toxin/bleed and there's no way around that without healing

 

I completely agree.

[JustaBucket]

I've brought this topic up before, because I was a little irritated that energy siphon seems to be the go-to aura for non melee frames and for when not doing the 4x corrosive projection thing. Innate energy regen coupled with turning the energy siphon mod into a regular mod that increases energy regen instead of being an aura. Same could be done with rejuvenation.

[LilLemay]

While I agree that it would make the game easier, I do think that there should be some sort of health regeneration, or like I said, assuming you're doing and endless mission and you don't take any serious hits, you're guaranteed to die at some point due to toxin/bleed and there's no way around that without healing

I was thinking and if you think about it even if you never get shot, even once, you still wouldn't be able to get around this due to toxin Eximus, so even if you never get shot once you're still guaranteed to die at some point. Unless you're Valkyr, A healing frame, or have some way to heal yourself

[Sync527]

What if they just put in the innate energy regen only, and energy siphon would just mean that you'd regen twice the amount? If so, why not up the base energy cost of skills? They don't have to put in a health regen so that support frames like Trin wouldn't be obsolete...

Edited September 30, 2015 by Sync527

[Tsukinoki]

Would putting cooldown time on skills affect the feel of the game???

Yes it would.

Fun fact: warframe actually used to have CDs on its abilities way back in early CBT.

It sucked hard and was horrible.  And it slowed down the pace of gameplay to "clear a room with abilities and guns....wait at door until you can use abilities again...move into next room and repeat"

And this happened with every single tile in the game, and the maps used to have less tiles back then and it still add 15 minutes to each mission.

DE removed the CDs because of how horribly it affected gameplay.

 

Even if the CDs are only on the ults? and the cooldowns don't have to be long as in MOBA long...

This has quite a few corner cases:

What about channeled abilities without a max duration?  When would the CD occur and would it be affected by how long you were using it?  Such as Absorb or Sound Quake.

What about abilities that are channeled and have a max duration, such as Prism for Mirage?  What about ending them early?

That idea isn't as simple as you think it is.

Overall CDs just don't work with this game.  DE tried it before and it failed hard and they don't want to go back to it.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[Leavith]

Now Lets not be ignorant the idea behind the energy siphon is great but we can easily describe this as being a good decision.

The energy orb and both health orb are quiet the good mechanic but people gameplay would be affected by the idea of removing energy orb.

While some of you say it would be abuse the abuse would only occur once the energy is accounted for by using fleeting expertise and streamline. I cannot see us having an innate energy regeneration level independent to an actual mods as reason for abuse of the mechanics.

You would require both energy efficiency mods to both run the this idea of abuse and that in itself it would be that all energy would have to be based on duration that can hit more then 25 and as well the energy pf the speed that it is being gain would be  required to excel the energy cost.

A 100 energy cost skill if you gain 2 energy per sec would need to be 50 sec for it to even matter.

plus if we make each energy speed and recovery be different via warframe for example Volt being electricity it means he can channel energy more in itself.

with the energy count being the fact that we can gain 50 energy in 2 sec with energy orbs as oppose to 100 energy in so many sec.

Without true ideology saying that energy regeneration would cause abuse would be incorrect WHY because simple as said their all our energy have high energy cost.

Any situacion only reason why this idea would be rejected is because of people builds that require high amount of energy because of blind rage or 100 level power and consumption time magic.

Just look at the fact that Excal energy blade power gain energy form the orbs which is just an example.

As someone mention Energy orbs are the reason for their being an issue with spam 4 because you only need1 energy of the many killed to drop 1 orb

As for health regen is already planned to be put in play i believed.

[LilLemay]

Now Lets not be ignorant the idea behind the energy siphon is great but we can easily describe this as being a good decision.

The energy orb and both health orb are quiet the good mechanic but people gameplay would be affected by the idea of removing energy orb.

While some of you say it would be abuse the abuse would only occur once the energy is accounted for by using fleeting expertise and streamline. I cannot see us having an innate energy regeneration level independent to an actual mods as reason for abuse of the mechanics.

You would require both energy efficiency mods to both run the this idea of abuse and that in itself it would be that all energy would have to be based on duration that can hit more then 25 and as well the energy pf the speed that it is being gain would be  required to excel the energy cost.

A 100 energy cost skill if you gain 2 energy per sec would need to be 50 sec for it to even matter.

plus if we make each energy speed and recovery be different via warframe for example Volt being electricity it means he can channel energy more in itself.

with the energy count being the fact that we can gain 50 energy in 2 sec with energy orbs as oppose to 100 energy in so many sec.

Without true ideology saying that energy regeneration would cause abuse would be incorrect WHY because simple as said their all our energy have high energy cost.

Any situacion only reason why this idea would be rejected is because of people builds that require high amount of energy because of blind rage or 100 level power and consumption time magic.

Just look at the fact that Excal energy blade power gain energy form the orbs which is just an example.

As someone mention Energy orbs are the reason for their being an issue with spam 4 because you only need1 energy of the many killed to drop 1 orb

As for health regen is already planned to be put in play i believed.

I don't think anybody ever said anything about removing the energy orb :p just a slight innate energy regen too

[Sync527]

This has quite a few corner cases:

What about channeled abilities without a max duration?  When would the CD occur and would it be affected by how long you were using it?  Such as Absorb or Sound Quake.

What about abilities that are channeled and have a max duration, such as Prism for Mirage?  What about ending them early?

That idea isn't as simple as you think it is.

Overall CDs just don't work with this game.  DE tried it before and it failed hard and they don't want to go back to it.

Good point...

But say that innate energy regen was actually going to be implemented--this is just a what if--how would it be implemented in such a way that over-abuse of skills (although, imo, skills were meant to be abused for fast-paced gameplay) could be avoided but the overall fast-pace feel of the game wouldn't be affected significantly that it would impede a quick mission progression?

[EvilChaosKnight]

Considering the presence of slash procs, magnetic procs, toxic auras and energy leech eximi I don't know why we DON'T have innate regen for health or energy yet.

 

Health orbs also don't seem to drop from the enemies at all. Not to mention that 25hp orbs are absolutely NOTHING for a frame with Vitality on, as 25hp is literally 3.4% of a 740hp pool. Unless you get tons of them (like with Desecrate) those orbs might as well not exist.

Energy orbs DO drop from the enemy but once again RNG decides how powerful we might get. That's kinda not healthy for a game design.