My First Impressions On 17.5.2 [Pvp]

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I have been playing conclave since update 10, there are many active pvp forum visitors who share the same history as myself. But I was always open to change, when 16 dropped and PvP 2.0 came out I enjoyed it quite a bit. Sure there were issues, but they were not bad enough to cramp my style. I was still playing decently and I enjoyed it. I felt in the right place. Of course some updates came and go with changes I liked and disliked, but for the most part, respected. Untill this update

 

I went back today, to try out the new movement speeds and the nerfs and buffs. And I am not trying to exaggerate here, I'm not over shooting it nor am I kidding. But this might just be the worst conclave build I have ever played. It has fundamentally changed the entire core of the game, and it has destroyed the foundation of it and the reason for this is because you touched movement.

 

Lets start with the basics, since u10 conclave as been a very movement centric game with a focus on positioning movement and a sprinkle of good aim. To me and to many others, to be in the right spot all the time, is much more important than to have good aim. Sure they are both mandatory but no game forces a player to master movement so diligently other than warframe.

 

Then you mess with the movement on tanks. Which was completely uncalled for. Gimping movement should never be a option in this game. Nerf tank health, nerf their passives nerf anything but their movement. Because as of now the abysmal movement speed and jumps are nowhere near compensated for the health that we can take. It is better to copter than to bullet jump with a tank, its is a pain to go over obstacles with a tank. Why not just nerf the EHP of tanks, that would have been soo much better than gimping the movement, movement is everything in this game, and it should not be touched in that way.

 

Now of course I played outside of my tank zone as I use different frames all the time. Movement seems alright but no where near as fast and fun as it used to be.

 

Then the Vectis. oh man the Vectis. There has been arguments over arguments about this and well it has been done. The Vectis class is now not viable, in the words of someone who has used in since u10. Like I said before in a very complex movement system like warframe has with all those complicated animations, its VERY hard to get headshots unless the target is standing perfectly still and even at that you have to consider p2p problems like Reg time delay, lag compensation. With this nerf you took a weapon that benefitted a good hand and made it into a weapon that benefits no hand. If this is a way to make snipers be conservative and hang back, than it will not work, warframe is not made for that. Warframe is movement based, and because of that needs hard hitting snipers that can be adapted by players to use in close quarters situations, like longshot blindfiring and zoomers.

 

This update has made the game slower, and it's boring now. The game is imply not fun, I see myself just running around like nothing, constantly chasing targets for mins on end. It went back to that bait and switch tactic that was present many updates ago. To put it quite simply, it caters to newer players, it frustrates older players like myself and overall detaches from the original unique core qualities of your game. Warframe provided an experience where I can fling myself across the map and get a head shot mid air, it was exhilarating it was fun, but now I see myself smashing my keyboard keys so I can mount a wall.

 

To put it simply, I feel that you should revert these changes. The Vectis nerf was uncalled for, no one wants to hit a rhino 3 times under enemy fire, its not worth it. The movement is gimped beyond belief for many warframes.

 

Why not just equalize all warframe stats across the board.

Give all warframes good fast movement speed.

Reduce the TTK

 

Theres are just 3 out of many of the thing you could of done, to make warframe a more balanced game while still sticking to the fast paced core of what it is all about. And that's how I feel you should proceed with this, these changes are grounding players too much, they are punishing skilled players for dominating a weapon that they mastered and they are degrading the unique aspect and quality of the game.

 

This game is focusing too much on variety, we need quality fun gameplay.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Eureka.seveN

[-InV-igo95862]

Complains Rhino is too slow.

 

Complains Rhino is hard to hit.

 

Logic?

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Complains Rhino is too slow.

Complains Rhino is hard to hit.

Logic?

Lol clearly you did not read. I said a sniper should not 3 shot rhino. I also stated that with complex animations that warframes do, it is difficult to land a head shot. Because the target is slow, it does not detract from the fact that the variety of movement makes the target hard to hit. You are relating "hard to hit" with one variable which is not the case.

Essentially now movement may be slower. But with the vecis Nerf its more difficult to land 3 shots on a target that constantly bobs his head.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Eureka.seveN

[Phasedragon]

I've said it before, but this is simply a symptom of the lack of matchmaking. Lately I've been taking a braton excal build just so that if I get put against new players I can switch to that and they won't complain and get everything nerfed.

[JonBenj]

Agree. And as Phaseshifted mentioned - matchmaking is having an effect on how the game is being tailored.

 

Players who can't aim or move; complain bitterly - and we see these corrosponding changes. imo.

 

I've been playing PVE a bit more - due to fustration with seemingly constant adjustments to mobility in PVP.

 

Run around with +20% to bullet jump and Rush, then go play a round in PVP..

 

Me and alot of other more qualified players have said, Warframes strength is in its mobility system, where PVP is concerned.

Edited October 9, 2015 by JonBenj

[elele]

Why not just nerf the EHP of tanks,

 

A low HP tank? I loled. 

[Pythadragon]

To add on to what E7 is saying-

 

In a highly skilled match, slow bullet jump frames are in practice, just as difficult to hit as fast bullet jump frames.

 

Pytha what? How does that Make Sense?

 

In a highly skilled match:

I'd say that 3/4 of aiming is 'fine' aiming. If you are good enough to keep your cursor on a fast moving frame, you are good enough to keep your cursor on a slow moving frame. This is 'course' aiming.

 

Fine aiming is dealing with all the instantaneous movement options an enemy has to 'dodge'. The issue with 'fine' aiming is this: 

 

At any given time, you have at least 7 ways to instantaneously change your direction of movement. 

1. jump

2. double jump

3. front flip

4. roll (side flips while aiming to either side + backflip, as well)

5. bullet jump

6. wall jump

7. copter

 

Bonus: Some melee animations also instantaneously contort your character model as well, so 8.

 

Special note: Sprint speed does not affect any of the above! at all! sprint speed only affects 'traveling', but not combat maneuverability.

 

And after that, you repeat another option. Again. And again. And Again. This instantaneous movement is not telegraphed and cannot be predicted. Compounded with lag, this is the real issue with aiming vs skilled players if you can cross the thresshold of keeping up with 'fast bullet jump speed'.

 

Only one of these options is affected by bullet jump speed! Maneuverability at high levels is not affected by the recent bullet jump changes.

 

For those who have trouble keeping up with fast bullet jump speed, fast frames are harder to hit. For those who can, bullet jump speed is not the big issue.

 

-----

 

All of these options you have for instantaneous movement is what makes Warframe unique, along with the fast movement speed in general. However, ALL of these movement options need to be accounted for when trying to balance 'tankiness vs maneuverability/speed'.

 

Just looking at ONE of these factors (the bullet jump!) doesn't change things when you have so many other options of avoiding fire at any given moment!

Edited October 9, 2015 by Pythadragon

[-InV-igo95862]

If you want to move fast pick someone fast. Tanks are for high HP and low movespeed. Warframe is an RPG shooter. It has different characters with different abilities and stats. Warframe are strong in one area and weak in another. Before the movespeed reduction the only way to make tanks balanced was to make their abilities useless. The problem with that is there would be little difference in tanks. Rhino and Frost were basically same as their abilities did not show their strengths. Have you wondered why Ash abilities were so bad? Now they are buffed. Warframes can be unique rather then bunch of stats.

 

Vectis - it still two shots squishier frames. In a truly competitive game the power level of weapons are equal among each other and do not relate to the skill levels. This way there would be much greater variety of weapons in high skill games. Take Dota 2 for example. Here is a recent match between two highest tier teams: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1843563913 As you can see in one team there is the highest skill cap hero (Wisp) and one of the lowest (Slardar) The high skill high power objects are actually a creation of anti competitive and casual games like Call of Duty. It gives player a sense of superiority over other players. However, then it comes to high skill there would be very limited choices.

 

Besides nobody taken your speed from the lower health warframes. Some of them even became faster.

Edited October 9, 2015 by -CM-igo95862

[Nighttide77]

E7... uh, dude...where have you been on these forums?  People have been discussing and asking for movement speed nerfs to high EHP frames for a good while, now, and we finally got it.

 

If you want to chase down players, shouldn't you use a light frame with better maneuverability?  In this instance, it makes a Loki able to catch up to a Rhino as they're trying to run away from your Vectis.  At the same time, it means changing playstyle based on the EHP of the frame you choose, not just based on the powers of the frame.  This was...kinda the way Tribes: Ascend was...when I played it...even though it was pretty good, they discontinued its dev...made me sad...

 

I know how frustrating it is to have to 3 shot anything, and that headshots are primarily random occurrences due to Warframe's movement set (especially compared to other shooters), but...it still 2 shots all frames with Oberon's EHP and lower (at least according to the most recent hotfix notes).  Shoot, I still one-shot Excals with Daikyu.

 

If bows 2 shot, and snipers 2 shot, where is the reward for bows?

[Rubbertubtub01]

I agree with Pythadragon and Eureka.

 

Movement speed is also the reason i disagreed with the daikyu nerf. Since the daikyu is projectile based weapon you have to predict where the player will be. As Pythadragon has said, there are 8 ways to instantaneously change your movement direction, making it impossible to predict where the player will be. 

 

With this being said, landing shots with the Daikyu is kind of a random occurance mixed with a little skill. The daikyu should 1 shot with the current movement system. 

 

You might think that since tanks movement speed was nerfed, the daikyu shouldn't be able to 1 shot them... but it should be able to. These tank frames are still capable of fast movement and instantaneous changes which doesn't separate them from faster moving frames. 

 

And if you do actually manage to land a shot, you gotta charge it again and repeat the process. By the time you land another shot, their shields would have already recharged, making it possible to tank another shot while in a roll.

 

The Daikyu should 1 shot. And the vectis nerf should be reverted as already stated above.

[-InV-igo95862]

If you want to return Vectis damage and make Daiky one shot then you need to buff other weapons to compete with them.

 

However, this open a pandora box. Why have multiple types of bows if there is one that one shots?

[Rubbertubtub01]

A low HP tank? I loled. 

 

In CS-GO, their players are exactly the same. Same health, same movement, same everything. and that game is extremely popular.

 

In my opinion, all frames should have same everything. The only thing that should change with the frame is shields and the sprint speed. Frost should be slowest and loki should be highest with frost having highest shields and loki the lowest. Bullet jump should remain the same for every frame. I would love to play loki in PvP but he is at a distinct disadvantage because of low HP and shield. 

 

I don't mind if you disagree, it's just my opinion.

 

 

If you want to return Vectis damage and make Daiky one shot then you need to buff other weapons to compete with them.

 

However, this open a pandora box. Why have multiple types of bows if there is one that one shots?

 

Charge time bro, charge time.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Rubbertubtub01

[-InV-igo95862]

In CS-GO, their players are exactly the same. Same health, same movement, same everything. and that game is extremely popular.

 

In my opinion, all frames should have same sprint speed, health, shield, everything. The only thing that should change with the frame is the sprint speed. Frost should be slowest and loki should be highest. Bullet jump should remain the same for every frame. I would love to play loki in PvP but he is at a distinct disadvantage because of low HP and shield. 

 

I don't mind if you disagree, it's just my opinion.

 

Because that game is a full time shooter. Warframe is an RPG.

Edited October 9, 2015 by -CM-igo95862

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Because that game is a full time shooter. Warframe is an RPG.

Already the developers have segregated themselves from the pve aspect of the game other than the variety. I think it would be better for the game if they disregarded the RPG elements and made a straight up shooter with unique movement controls

[Rubbertubtub01]

Already the developers have segregated themselves from the pve aspect of the game other than the variety. I think it would be better for the game if they disregarded the RPG elements and made a straight up shooter with unique movement controls

 

Exactly

[elele]

Already the developers have segregated themselves from the pve aspect of the game other than the variety. I think it would be better for the game if they disregarded the RPG elements and made a straight up shooter with unique movement controls

 

Then why would I play this game instead of Quake arena ...

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

A low HP tank? I loled.

But did I say, to give tanks a low ehp? I said Nerf it and keep the movement, as in. Lower it not to an extreme extent. But okay

E7... uh, dude...where have you been on these forums?  People have been discussing and asking for movement speed nerfs to high EHP frames for a good while, now, and we finally got it.

 

If you want to chase down players, shouldn't you use a light frame with better maneuverability?  In this instance, it makes a Loki able to catch up to a Rhino as they're trying to run away from your Vectis.  At the same time, it means changing playstyle based on the EHP of the frame you choose, not just based on the powers of the frame.  This was...kinda the way Tribes: Ascend was...when I played it...even though it was pretty good, they discontinued its dev...made me sad...

 

I know how frustrating it is to have to 3 shot anything, and that headshots are primarily random occurrences due to Warframe's movement set (especially compared to other shooters), but...it still 2 shots all frames with Oberon's EHP and lower (at least according to the most recent hotfix notes).  Shoot, I still one-shot Excals with Daikyu.

 

If bows 2 shot, and snipers 2 shot, where is the reward for bows?

Why should I have to forcefully pick a roster of frames that I do not like so I can move faster. Even at that, the pace of the game has reduced, its more grounded than before and it makes it feel like any other third person shooter. People have a problem with movement because they can't hit, why is it that I can do just fine with an auto and hit a target running/B jumping far away just fine. I'm notnot even a supreme player, I'm maybe slightly above average. The game now is just more frustrating.

As for your bow argument. I have been smashed by daikyu users while using my vectis, I get evenly matched by someone with a Paris prime. There is no gap between bows and snipers. Snipers put you at a disadvantage when close, bows do not. Snipers excellent in long ranges bows not so much as they require more finesse and skill. Now sniping is a cringe fest it feels like an ordeal to kill one guy.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Then why would I play this game instead of Quake arena ...

No one is stopping you from playing quake arena. Also quake is fundamentally different to a game like warframe just on the basis that one is 1st person and the other is 3rd person. Just that changes there entire game, also the movement is a lot different. So for you its preference, by they are no where near the same.

[elele]

No one is stopping you from playing quake arena. Also quake is fundamentally different to a game like warframe just on the basis that one is 1st person and the other is 3rd person. Just that changes there entire game, also the movement is a lot different. So for you its preference, by they are no where near the same.

 

It is a rhetoric question. 

 

You do understand the selling point of WF (just like Destiny) is the grind for new gears and frames right? You get rid of the RPG element by equalizing the frames and gears, then the game turns into a third-rate Quake clone with a TPS twist. I don't even want to explain more. 

[rockscl]

just 1 thing:

 

you ask to reduce EHP on tanks in order to preserve their speed, but picking a wet paper frame will grant you reduced ehp with high speed

 

thats all

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

just 1 thing:

 

you ask to reduce EHP on tanks in order to preserve their speed, but picking a wet paper frame will grant you reduced ehp with high speed

 

thats all

Thats one of the things they can do, they could of done litterally anything but what they did in this update. This update killed conclave. You cant avoid AOE casts with good reflexes, you cant be mobile anymore even with a lighter frame. I was playing around with a few frames and when i tried to bullet jump it was a joke. Even on lighter frames I felt like a rock.

 

Now frames with higher speeds will be favoured, because warframe is centric on mobility so baiscally it turned the game insideout. 

[-InV-igo95862]

, you cant be mobile anymore even with a lighter frame. I was playing around with a few frames and when i tried to bullet jump it was a joke. Even on lighter frames I felt like a rock.

 

Lie. Many warframes have become faster then before. Now you actually have to choose who you want to play.

[Murph_HKM]

I've said it before, but this is simply a symptom of the lack of matchmaking. Lately I've been taking a braton excal build just so that if I get put against new players I can switch to that and they won't complain and get everything nerfed.

I agree brother.

Balance the game at noob level = no balance at elite level.

 

Balance at elite level = balance across all phases.

[BoyTitan]

Dude you have the maturity of a 12 year old. Due to your obnoxious rants in game today just going to flat deem this post as something that should be ignored.

Edited October 9, 2015 by BoyTitan

[Phasedragon]

Dude you have the maturity of a 12 year old. Due to your obnoxious rants in game today just going to flat deem this post as something that should be ignored.

Who the f$!# are you talking to?