Trinity Overhaul (If I Were God-Emperor For A Day)

[TheBrsrkr]

Logic please.

You sure you're in the right forum?

[DaganEldr]

You sure you're in the right forum?

I actually second their statement. Logic would be a great thing to have instead of a single phrase of three repetitive words.

 

(But I do wish there were more of it around here.) :I

[joe1288]

YOU THINK THAT WILL SAVE YOU FROM OUR FLAMES?

 

BEHOLD, AND DESPAIR

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... now, on topic. I agree that WoL and EV needs to be changed, and I like that EV idea. Not a fan of that WoL change though. And IMO, Link doesn't need a rework.

 

And all Blessing need is to not count self-damage. Capping it at level 75% won't be all that useful for high levels, as starting from level 60 or so, enemies deal obscene amount of damage ( A level 65 Corpus Tech can kill a 95% DR Shatter Shield Mesa in mere seconds ), and yes, I think 99% DR is completely fair considering that it requires either quick reflex, Quick Thinking, or suicidal party members to actually get that number.

*puts that mod on Ignis with Ember Prime* Yeah son, the flames are real *_* lol

 

Ok, so I like some of your trinity changes. Well of Life is totally useless true. To put it into perspective, I use it less than I use saryn's venom now or chroma's scream XD However, link is no...just no, leave it as is. Trinity is highly squishy and she needs that when that bombard nullifier combo walks around the corner especially. Maybe a damage drop off of damage reflected (put it as the same as her resistance on how much she reflects, so 75 percent reflect), but other than that I love link. For blessing, you do have a duration timer on that overshield right.....because otherwise valkyr, hydroid, limbo, loki, and ash will all just go invulnerable/invisible and laugh as they gain like 9999 overshield lol. As for the blessing mechanic change....idk how to feel about it. On the one hand yes I can see where you are coming from for it, but getting to 99 percent blessing on tough planets/void is very risky as that quick thinking stagger can throw you for a loop (or when a heavy gunner just unloads on you making for infinite stagger lol). Your energy vampire idea is actually kind of nice in my opinion, making trinity more active on how she uses her abilities. For raids though man it would be tough to change as that freaking battery would drain you dry without lucky and well placed energy vampire insta kills for those orbs. Overall interesting and good ideas here, however a few warframes are in line for rework before you (like my favorite poison goddess saryn lol), so you might need to wait a little lol

[Kettunen]

I could live with these changes.

[Towermice]

Why would I ever give so much effort to restore my health when I could just hit an enemy once with a life-strike weapon

Why would I ever need to cast at half energy when A)most of my abilities are duration based. and B) I have 450+ energy maximum

"Let me just remove her only offensive capabilities"

 

Good luck ever completing the raid if trinity gets heavily nerfed.

[Chroia]

1.) Well of Life

Why it's bad:

Agreed.

Rework:

How often do you have your team all within 10 meters of an enemy? The same enemy?

Off the top of my head, only when you're getting overrun in a Defense.

Further, you're either 'penalizing' ranged or melee.

No issues with the actual mechanic.

Intent is to

* Allow Trinity to create a life leech based "fortified position" that the team can use. Tactical landscaping is fun.

* Give a useful way to heal team without immediately reaching for Blessing

How static is Warframe supposed to be?

Is 'camping' and good or bad tactic?

1b.) Pool of Life

Why it's bad:

Agreed.

Rework:

Um. Wow. O.O

At first glance, this looks amazingly useful.

Will have to think about it.

2.) Energy Vampire

Why it's bad:

Leads to abusive strategies where players exist solely to pump their team with energy,

Agreed.

said team being able to benefit from effectively infinite energy without any effort of their own. The Trinity player is doing a fair amount of work, thank you very much.

This leads to a trivialization of the energy economy and ultimately less gameplay because players being supported this way never have to think about the cost of using their powers or whether they can afford to use their most expensive abilities at any given moment.

This is primarily because of Energy Efficiency. EV just makes exacerbates it.

Not disagreeing, but if only one of these things will be addressed, it should be Eff, not EV.

Also enables goofy level-agnostic script kill capability when used in combination with with Well of Life.

True, but impractical to use.

Rework:

The ability that Trinity casts most often is EV.

Even with your rework.

*shrug*

Not particularly useful.

Also, what's stopping indiscriminate AoEs from killing your EV target? Same as now, really.

And there is some penalty for losing your EV target.

Have it pulse-apply a buff with X duration every X-Y seconds? This gives you a bit of safety margin if you unexpectedly lose your target.

3.) Link

Why it's bad:

Leads to abusive strategy where reflected self-damage is used to nuke enemies without really engaging in any gameplay.

Um, maybe I just don't play Trinity right, but Warframe's pretty much quantity > quality, atm. At levels where you're better off nuking yourself than just shooting the bad guys, you've got so many enemies around that nuking them 3 at a time oughtn't be that efficient.

And that's before going into 'support' enemies. (Ancients, Nullifers, Roombas, possibly etc.)

Am I wrong here?

3b.) Abating Link

Why it's bad:

Agreed.

Still surprised that Corrosive Projection didn't get the Infested Impedance treatment.

Rework:

Off the top of my head, I think this'd work for me.

4.) Blessing

Why it's bad:

Agreed.

Rework:

Damage resist value is based on total of health AND shields lost from most damaged team member, not only health.

Just means doing some math and remodding my Glaive from pure Toxin.

Resist value is capped at 75%.

Less self-damage required? Alright.

Also, why stop there? Why not drop it to 50%? 33%? This is a serious question. Is balancing for potentially a quarter damage easy enough?

Blessed players receive full health and shields.

Power Str?

Blessed players also start to charge 10% of their maximum shield capacity as overshield, each second, so long as they do not take damage. Overshield charge ends for an individual player when that individual takes damage.

Hm. Alright, I guess?

Intent is to

* prevent players from total immunity

* reduce the attractiveness of abusive self-damage strategies by increasing performance in non-extreme cases

Non-extreme cases don't require 99% DR, lower is usually sufficient already.

* give a useful purpose for preemptive Blessing rather than being only reactive

Works for me.

Responses inline in red where text-blocks. Edited October 13, 2015 by Chroia

[[DE]Momaw]

Revised and expanded as per some feedback.

[[DE]Momaw]

How often do you have your team all within 10 meters of an enemy? The same enemy?

Off the top of my head, only when you're getting overrun in a Defense.

Further, you're either 'penalizing' ranged or melee.

No issues with the actual mechanic.

 

The idea here is for Trinity to actually be smart with where she does this and not just be able to boost the entire team regardless of where they are or what they are doing, and for team mates to see that there is an opportunity for a heal if they need one. I'm really interested in powers being more interactive and require a bit more engagement from the players on the team rather than just Bam! here's your buff. Worth pointing out that if supporting with life leech is really your thing, with minmaxed Range it would go to over 30 meters.

 

Um. Wow. O.O

At first glance, this looks amazingly useful.

Will have to think about it.

Pool of Life too stronk. Changed, please review.

 

Also, what's stopping indiscriminate AoEs from killing your EV target? Same as now, really.

 

Key difference is that the victim poops out a pile of energy orbs, which means that each player must actually go over and pick them up. Sure your EV victim will sometimes get nailed by indiscriminate AOE but said AOE spammers don't get to just stand one place and do it over and over. There is at least some game left because people would have to move around.

 

Also, why stop there? Why not drop it to 50%? 33%? This is a serious question. Is balancing for potentially a quarter damage easy enough?

 

I think it will be. 75% damage reduction is a lot, but it's not outright invulnerability. Players still have to think about what they are doing and not stand directly in the fires of Mount Doom.  I don't want to change the purpose of Blessing, because frankly I enjoy playing Trinity too! But the godmode needs to go.

 

It does at the least reduce the difference in hypothetical damage range that a player team can experience, from a Pro-Trin team compared to a No-Trin team, to a factor of 4 rather than a factor of 100. Which is a heck of a lot more sane for balance.

[Flowen231]

IMO trinity doesn't need any changes.

Seriously.

[atom]

4 energy siphon? What?

 

Consumables are not free.

 

Using abilities freely is the problem. Removing the energy system completely is game breaking because the game was built around powers having a cost. Removing that cost destroys balance. 

so you don't think that making 1/4 of frames act as a limited range battery and nothing else is enough of a balance for this?

[rawr1254]

 

IMO trinity doesn't need any changes.

Seriously.

 

[Attel_Malagate]

I'd just say she is fine as she is now, I dont see any need to change her set, maybe the ability to cast in air because parkour 2.0 made you a lot more agile, but otherwise, I would say that her abilities are surprisingly well synergised.

[Kolos1001]

 

IMO trinity doesn't need any changes.

Seriously.

 

IMO trinity does need to be changed a lot.

Seriously. 

 

See how that actually provides 0 feedback?

 

so you don't think that making 1/4 of frames act as a limited range battery and nothing else is enough of a balance for this?

Correct. They changed Blessing because it effectively removed the idea of running out of life. EV removes the idea of running out of energy. You're removing aspects of the game in which it was balanced around(How powerful an ability is compared to its cost). Removing the cost of those directly breaks that.  

[atom]

Correct. They changed Blessing because it effectively removed the idea of running out of life. EV removes the idea of running out of energy. You're removing aspects of the game in which it was balanced around(How powerful an ability is compared to its cost). Removing the cost of those directly breaks that.  

there are balancing checks in place already for that sucha as channeling powers not being able to receive energy and the fact i mentioned earlier. those are tradeoffs that make it balanced imho. too much balance can hurt the fun in this pve game that throws hordes of mobs at you encouraging you to spam abilities.

i'd like to add that you can spam abilities just fine without ev just with energy siphon and max efficiency with exactly the same tradeoff as sacrificing a frame to make it a battery (75%). this feature is in no way game breaking ... it's fun and the intended way to play the game

Edited October 14, 2015 by ..atom..

[Kolos1001]

there are balancing checks in place already for that sucha as channeling powers not being able to receive energy and the fact i mentioned earlier. those are tradeoffs that make it balanced imho. too much balance can hurt the fun in this pve game that throws hordes of mobs at you encouraging you to spam abilities.

Or you know...actually use your weapons for once? Unheard of right? 

 

While it's true that channeling powers do not receive energy. They can get about 5+ minutes from one EV the second their channel ends. There is no waiting like their would be from E.siphon or limbo. The only real drawback is you lose out on solo play. Seeing how this is a co-op game I don't find that to be a huge deal personally. 

 

In a team she is gamebreaking. 

[atom]

you are really exaggerating there with 5+ mins from 1 ev. also ev trin build is not good for solo play

 

what about players that like to play casters and not so much weapons? F#*$& them right?

[rawr1254]

Or you know...actually use your weapons for once? Unheard of right? 

 

While it's true that channeling powers do not receive energy. They can get about 5+ minutes from one EV the second their channel ends. There is no waiting like their would be from E.siphon or limbo. The only real drawback is you lose out on solo play. Seeing how this is a co-op game I don't find that to be a huge deal personally. 

 

In a team she is gamebreaking. 

Awwww. We all had energy the entire game. We all didn't die. We all got a lot of kills. We all got the same loot. Nerf please..................

[Kolos1001]

Awwww. We all had energy the entire game. We all didn't die. We all got a lot of kills. We all got the same loot. Nerf please..................

Yup. It's in Beta. Things will be changed. Deal with it. 

 

you are really exaggerating there with 5+ mins from 1 ev. also ev trin build is not good for solo play

 

what about players that like to play casters and not so much weapons? F#*$& them right?

But I'm really not. EV restores a ridiculous amount of energy instantly. Toggle ability drains(Outside peacemaker) are extremely low making it so one EV will likely fill their entire energypool

 

Generally good casters are separated from bad ones with how well they manage their energy(Or cooldowns depending on the game). EV removes that. Could you imagine a game where you have inf energy and 0 cooldowns on people's most powerful abilities? It's kind of ridiculous. 

[atom]

Yup. It's in Beta. Things will be changed. Deal with it. 

 

But I'm really not. EV restores a ridiculous amount of energy instantly. Toggle ability drains(Outside peacemaker) are extremely low making it so one EV will likely fill their entire energypool

 

Generally good casters are separated from bad ones with how well they manage their energy(Or cooldowns depending on the game). EV removes that. Could you imagine a game where you have inf energy and 0 cooldowns on people's most powerful abilities? It's kind of ridiculous. 

you can already fill your energy pool with restores. i think your real issue is with efficiency in this case. anyway there are tradeoffs both for maxed efficiency and for using ev trin in a team already. you want a more tactical game which warframe is not with the amount and scaling of enemies we have. i get it tbh that's exactly the game i imagined when i started playing with open beta but it seems it's not what the devs intended. the great thing about warframe tho is the sandbox attributes it has so if you want certain limitations for your game you can use and impose them for yourself/team without affecting the whole game for other players in a negative way.

 

i want to say no to proposed changes of making stationary targets and not killing them a reward. we already had that a while ago and it was reworked to what we have now due to popular remand and slowing down gameplay

Edited October 14, 2015 by ..atom..

[Kolos1001]

you can already fill your energy pool with restores. i think your real issue is with efficiency if you think hard enough.

I really wish people would stop using consumables as an excuse for a skill being broken. Consumables have a cost...the cost being actual materials. Make EV cost 10k per use and I'll say it's balanced. 

[rawr1254]

I really wish people would stop using consumables as an excuse for a skill being broken. Consumables have a cost...the cost being actual materials. Make EV cost 10k per use and I'll say it's balanced. 

SO just for S#&$s and giggle lets make EV cost health LOL synergy with blessing now ftw

[vazerd68]

I like EVERYTHING about your rework.

 

note : your EV rework favorizes the use of carrier, that need some tweaks imo.

 

suggestion :

What about having power strenght increasing reflected damage from link ?

If it sounds too powerful maybe with some formula like  dmg x (1+ (strenght*0.5)) ?

[atom]

I really wish people would stop using consumables as an excuse for a skill being broken. Consumables have a cost...the cost being actual materials. Make EV cost 10k per use and I'll say it's balanced. 

ev build also has a cost. like i explained you need to use trade offs in the build and sacrifice one player to effectively be a battery for the team. if that is no cost idk what is

[Kolos1001]

ev build also has a cost. like i explained you need to use trade offs in the build and sacrifice one player to effectively be a battery for the team. if that is no cost idk what is

I think DE is trying to get away from pressing one button over and over. Another reason to change EV. Thanks. 

[atom]

i agree that DE is trying to make all skills on a frame useful and get rid of 1 trick ponies which i personally agree with (trin is far from a 1trick pony btw)  but at the same time realize it ruins other player's fun that want to specialize a frame for one ability. hopefully they can do it and please both camps like the have with past reworks. not like the gmag nerf i mean which tuned it into a totally useless not worth the slot thing.

 

my main point here is that if u don't enjoy having ev trin on the team nobody is forcing you to. however asking for a drastic rework that would break this ability will ruin many players idea of fun please keep that in mind and try to be fair.

Edited October 14, 2015 by ..atom..