Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Pride]

almost all of maismas potential damage was transferred into potential damage from spore which utilizing spore properly with a good toxin aoe weapon returns all of the damage maisma once had

[Sonicbullitt]

Setup really doesn't take long, especially now that spores spread on death. One marked enemy is usually enough. If you are really using too much energy then I must say you take a look at how you are going about it. In addition her abilities can cause feedback loops in tougher crowd groupings using lash or an aoe weapon. Spores popped by aoe weapons still spread to enemies near so constant popping with something like ignis means results happen fast and reliably.

it still takes too much time. If you just use her first ability not it doesn't take long to set up but using her 1 2 and 4th in a rotation takes time and energy.  My problem is it's not enough , while viable it is not much better then the first incarnation besides being able to spread it via molt. Not to mention her 3 and 4 are useless. Excalibur for example would have killed a group of enemies by the time saryn does with the same level enemies. She still needs more work, it's a nice step in the right direction but as of now she's mediocre compared to other frames . 

 

almost all of maismas potential damage was transferred into potential damage from spore which utilizing spore properly with a good toxin aoe weapon returns all of the damage maisma once had

 

Nice try, but no using all her skills together she is still less effective. We also don't get corrosive procs from misama anymore

Edited November 6, 2015 by Sonicbullitt

[Enedora]

Spore is uncapped, and utilizing quick destruction of spores makes the ability insane. in-sane.

 

I run banshee normally as my raid frame. From the perspective of a Banshee player, Saryn's freaking Spore is nuts. Test it out instead of complaining. If you can't think of a reason, test one out. It won't take you long if you get the gist of my point (or if you're reading the yae-sayer threads)

[RyanGo]

Just throwing in my 2 cents, maybe it was just the build I used but it seems like Regenerative Molt + Rage is just pure FUN. It's like you have to skirt around the edge of dying to fill up your power meter and then start casting everything. Really awesome, can't wait to try and get better at it to try to maximize the energy gain without actually dying.

 

Another thing though it did seem like I barely had a use for miasma but that was mainly because everything was dying too quickly...will try out at higher levels

[hukurokuju5]

^ IS RIGHT

 

100% viral proc is reallllly strong.  

[DSMatticus]

Summary:  Saryn is perfectly fine.

 

Read my thread on it if you want a further explanation, but to put it simply, Try using Spores. Using Spores right completely obliterates Miasma in terms of strength.

A viral proc is an x2 damage multiplier. Spores, specifically, is a slow and clumsy way to spread viral procs. As a whole, spores is one of the worst damage multiplying abilities in the game. You are right that spores is better than new miasma - that does not mean Saryn is fine, that means Saryn's whole kit peaks at "worst in the game at the thing she does best" and goes downhill from there.

[Helleborr]

Miasma can be synergetic with viral procs from Red Veil, but that still is a quirky mechanic and takes away choice instead of adding it. Also, I can't believe they didn't make spores detonate on target death, which still means you may spore a target and watch it get killed without spreading anything.

So, to set up a target, it has to be tough, so it can live through a melee strike which would set up toxin, a spore cast and then a spore popping shot, while being in a crowd of enemies. Saryn also has to stay alive while doing all that. Good luck with that.

Overall I agree with OP. The rework is meh. Saryn now has too little damage for too much work, almost no readily available utility, she's forced to use melee weapon to get to her full potential while not having the defenses of melee frames, and she'd better be using a Red Veil augment/weapon too. This is too much hassle for too little reward, and as much as I like her concept, I didn't play her when she was boring "press 4 to win", and I'm not gonna play her now that she's "press a whole lot of buttons and still fall short".

[rawr1254]

I can't think of any reason to bring Saryn instead of Banshee.

 

Viral and toxic procs? That's cute. You'd need 20-30 Saryns to deal the same amount of damage as one Banshee and one Mirage with a maxed-out Ignis and 284% Power Strength.

 

Oh, it uses a weapon? Guess it doesn't count then, even though that's what Mirage's powers actually do. Wait, don't some of Saryn's powers require use of a weapon, too?

Ok well lets bring a banshee and a saryn to a game and we'll see who kills more at the end. Yes Banshee hits high numbers but thats it. Its 1 kill per sonar hit. Saryn its hit a spore now fk ton of enemies be taking damage. Yea you can bring your ignis and guarantee a bunch of resonance but even then your only dealing damage to that one enemy at a time.

Edited November 6, 2015 by rawr1254

[Synitare]

So...

 

Old Saryn: Enemy has 50000 health = 5 miasmas  Min energy needed 25*5 = 125

New Saryn: Enemy has 50000 health = 1 spore 1 miasma 1 molt Ok yea nerf sure Energy needed 12.5+6.25+25 = 43.75

 

Nerf no? Buff yes only you have to be smart to see it.

 

So ridiculously false. If you have max efficiency, then you absolutely do not have max duration. If you have max duration, you don't have max range. If you have max range, you don't have max strength. If you have max strength, you have neither max effiency nor duration.

 

Trying to max strength and duration would net you the following (just quick math using numbers from the wiki and warframe builder, might be small errors):

 

Miasma 4678 total x 4 (200% from toxin and viral procs, and counting the viral status as an additional 100%) = 18750 @ 125 energy

Spore 28x3 damage per second over 38.2 seconds = 3254  @ 31.25 energy

Molt 568 + 284 per tick for 9 ticks = 3124 @ 62.5 energy

 

Total damage over 38.2 seconds = 25128 for 218.75 energy. This also has a maximum range of ~5 meters.

 

Looks like a nerf to me.

 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Synitare

[Sonicbullitt]

Miasma can be synergetic with viral procs from Red Veil, but that still is a quirky mechanic and takes away choice instead of adding it. Also, I can't believe they didn't make spores detonate on target death, which still means you may spore a target and watch it get killed without spreading anything.

So, to set up a target, it has to be tough, so it can live through a melee strike which would set up toxin, a spore cast and then a spore popping shot, while being in a crowd of enemies. Saryn also has to stay alive while doing all that. Good luck with that.

Overall I agree with OP. The rework is meh. Saryn now has too little damage for too much work, almost no readily available utility, she's forced to use melee weapon to get to her full potential while not having the defenses of melee frames, and she'd better be using a Red Veil augment/weapon too. This is too much hassle for too little reward, and as much as I like her concept, I didn't play her when she was boring "press 4 to win", and I'm not gonna play her now that she's "press a whole lot of buttons and still fall short".

 ikr , glad someone understands my point I also didn't understand why they didn't make the spores spread on death, many times i have just had enemies die outright before they spread or killed by players before they can. Saryn right now really isn't pub friendly, for her to even be somewhat effective you have to have a group build warframes specifically around her to feed her energy and cc as well as not wipe everything out before the spores spread. So you either need a dedicated group or play solo.   

[Enedora]

I had to answer this point in my own thread, but I'll do it again here.

 

In what world will you have one 50k hp target in an empty room. Let's do six of them

 

With six of them, New Saryn kills them in less than two seconds with one cast of Spore. If you've read anything to do with my thread, you'll understand how.

[Whulfgar]

Boost the damage of the Spore tic by 3 times = viable damage aoe for early game with low cost. Molt could use some HP love. Get rid of Toxic Lash completely, replace it with a new ability that shoots a toxic ball (like frost, ember, volt etc) from range that does damage and leaves a longish duration toxic dot that spreads when Spore gets spread. Keep Miasma mechanic the same but increase damage of the tics by at least 50%. Problems solved. 

 

If you really want to keep Toxic Lash then it needs an additional buff of armor or something because she is too squishy now to be in melee range in lvl 50+ runs. Shes not a tank anymore. Just make her an awesome ranged Dot caster. Ya know, like a venom spitting snake. 

[Drizty]

just fix energy costs please :)
or make molt automatically have spores on it on cast ( that way we don't have to use so much energy using spore and molt for the combo )

[rawr1254]

Ok either way how about playing the frame instead of looking for another way to only use 1 skill.

[DSMatticus]

Why do I have to keep saying this in every discussion about Saryn? Every single one? A viral proc is a 2x damage multiplier. Do you want to know what other damage multipliers look like in this game?

 

Nova's mprime: 2x damage multiplier. Covers entire map in a single cast, no extra work required. Crazy good built-in slow debuff. Comes on a frame with actual scaling power damage (antimatter drop).

 

Banshee's sonar: Literally can't go lower than 2x damage multiplier in any build; usually 5x+. Covers huge area in a single cast, no extra work required. Requires actual aiming or an AoE weapon. Comes on a frame with crazy good crowd control.

 

Rhino's roar: Easily 1.9x multiplier without seriously hurting duration or range, so yeah you can give all allies within 25m +90% damage for 40 seconds. Comes on a frame with acceptable crowd control, and whose upcoming rework will probably be an actual buff.

 

Saryn requires as much work as a resonance Banshee to keep up her damage multiplier trick, but for all that extra work still only gets results on par with Rhino and Nova - and all three of those frames have very good tricks above and beyond damage multiplication, whereas Saryn has... uhh... huh.

[horcruxpotter]

Hi. First of all, thank you so much for keeping the game updated and interesting DE :)

I must say, I never cared for Saryn before, but since I liked the synergy shown in previous devstreams, I decided to build one and get her ready for Wednesday. At first, I was a little disappointed, but after some testing... my god. She's awesome! I wasn't playing her the right way, and I assume most people haven't really tested her enough. She's a beast right now, and I'm going to point out her positives and negatives so you guys can see (based on my play testing):

 

The good:

 

- Spore is by far her best ability, in my opinion. The recent update now allow spores to be spread when enemies die, so it's even better now. Some might think that DoT's don't have a place in this game, but I personally think they play well, specially since they come with status effects, and we all know how good Viral procs are, specially when there's no armor (corrosive projection). 

 

- Molt is awesome for spore spreading, but can also serve as a decoy to attract enemy fire. Miasma can overcharge the molt and increase it's explosion damage, although it's not really that relevant. It can be used to spread spores without having to come close to the enemies and stay safe if you equip range mods, which is really good for those people who don't want to be forced into melee. Also, can detonate your molt with miasma or by casting it again. The molt itself will give toxic status to enemies within molt's range, so your miasma will be fully charged for maximum damage.

 

- Toxic Lash is a great way to introduce Saryn into melee. She gets a nice buff to her melee damage, and you can proc toxin with each strike and spread deceases in the range effective range of Spore. With the recent changes to Spore mechanics, you can run exterminate missions full melee, and spread toxic and viral procs without needing to recast Spore.

 

- Miasma deals less damage, but has a higher potential if you buff it with toxin and viral procs. Duration is needed, so forget about your old low duration builds. Miasma is more like an additional DoT, instead of a nuke, but can deal a great amount of damage to light armored targets if you find the right balance between duration and power strength.

 

- Her passive fits her new play style, nothing much to point out here.

 

 

The bad:

 

- A little slow. Saryn could use an increase to her movement speed.

 

- Miasma doesn't do well against heavy armored targets. I've tested damage against lvl 80 Corrupted Heavy Gunners, and she tickles them at best. In order to allow Miasma to be effective in high lvl void missions, you might need 4 corrosive projections, and that requires a group of 4. Miasma will do great against light armored targets though.

 

- A little more survivability would come in handy for players who would like to go full melee into high lvl endless missions. It's really good for spreading deceases, but I think she needs a more reliable way to fight in the face of enemies. For example, Excalibur can come close to enemies with slash dash, that will give him Invincibility while dashing and also will knock down the enemies that don't die from Slash Dash damage. He also has a long range radial blind to improve his survival skills. He can do all that while wielding a melee weapon, no Exalted Blade needed. Same goes for Valkyr with high health and armor, and Chroma for his insane armor capacity, just to name a few.

 

- She's a hungry little girl. She consumes too much energy.

 

 

Final Notes: 

This is actually a very positive rework. I watched the way saryn was played before, and I tried her out once using a friend's account, and her play style felt really boring to me. I'm used to vertical bullet jump, radial blind enemies mid air, slash dash mid air into enemies, use dragon nikana to rip them apart, roll to dodge melee units, horizontal bullet jump, vertical slash dash, ground slam, slide attack, activate exalted blade, deactivate exalted blade, etc etc. So yeah, running around and pressing 4 isn't for me.

 

I feel she's more entertaining now, and I think players should test her out well and keep an open mind before expressing how they feel about her. Also, try to test different builds and try to find the one that suits you most. I personally use a max range build (overextended + stretch). You can spread deceases all across the tileset of Draco, and miasma will have a really big area of effect. Your fellow tenno will love you for it, since you're cutting health of enemies by half.

 

[EchoesOfRain]

So I tried Saryn with a stretch mod, my Quanta Vandal, built for Blast and Corrosive with Combustion Beam....HOLY **** Spores are so easy to spread. Kill one enemy and suddenly everything has a Spore on it. Not even further away enemies are safe. Definitely made the rework flow very nicely for me, Since I now have both ranged and close range options for spreading Spores

[Synitare]

Ok either way how about playing the frame instead of looking for another way to only use 1 skill.

 

I don't want to play the frame. The frame is not fun or rewarding to play. Kinda the issue.

[EmptyDevil]

Molt

 

This ability should scale with health, shields, and armor mods.

[Pro3Display]

So I tried Saryn with a stretch mod, my Quanta Vandal, built for Blast and Corrosive with Combustion Beam....HOLY **** Spores are so easy to spread. Kill one enemy and suddenly everything has a Spore on it. Not even further away enemies are safe. Definitely made the rework flow very nicely for me, Since I now have both ranged and close range options for spreading Spores

out of pure curiosity can i know the level of enemies?

[Lightsmith]

1 click instant room clear isn't there anymore, but those abilities are on their way out.

[-Sensei-Legacy-]

am i the only one who think we went from spamming 4 to spamming combination 2,1,4?

 

on the positivie side i can really notice the difference in the spreading of the spores which i find great, however the rework in general is a bit dissapointing.

 

i dont even know what to use my saryn for, she is just taking place in the inventory.

[Synitare]

Banding, I was more referring to rawr1254. As for what you've done, Hikou Prime and Spore is carrying your entire build. While yes it's useful, it's not something you can base an entire frame around and say it's fine. Saryn was nerfed. Hard. Just because she can be effective with a very particular setup does not change this. The rework was supposed to make her more interactive. You've essentially traded pressing 4 for pressing 1 and left click. Most importantly, she's just not fun to play. She wasn't particularly fun before, but at least she had the nuking to compensate.

[Enedora]

out of pure curiosity can i know the level of enemies?

Seriously. it doesn't matter. Have any form of blast proc (especially concealed explosives) and spore is pure insanity.

[Volinus7]

Saryn has no role in the team other than a low level steamroller.

Defense? Better use Frost

Hard CC? Vauban Mirage Nyx

Flat damage? Nova Excal Valkyr

While the recent changes are good and bad that balanced out as a slight buff they don't fix the main problem of saryn.

Saryn lacks scalability she has no reliable defense hard CC or ultra high flat damage.

[Here comes the fix]

Miasma should do corrosive proc on each and every ticks.

This will gives her a role as armor breaker improves scalability.

Seriously

Spore does viral proc

Molt&Lash do toxin proc

Why Miasma doesn't do any proc at all?????

Of all warframes there're only two flat damage ultimates that can't do proc which are Maim's Blast and Miasma.

The revisited idea is good but it should fix the main problem not the trivial one.