Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[DSMatticus]

So, I went into the simulacrum with a relatively balanced Saryn build (80% duration, 175% efficiency, 145% range, and 130% str; leaves enough mod slots for vitality, rage, and regen molt), a quad-barrel sancti tigris, and a max fire rate concealed explosives hikou prime.

 

For my first test, I spawned 6x level 40 heavy gunners. I used miasma to stagger them, and then killed all six gunners in five shots of my sancti tigris. I took a tiny bit of shield damage, because apparently one didn't get the memo that he was supposed to be staggered. All in all, the fight was over in seconds.

 

For my second test, I spawned another 6x level 40 heavy gunners. I dropped spores on one, and then let loose with the exploding ninja stars. The spores spread instantly, and concealed explosives popped them almost as soon as they appeared; my enemies' models were obscured by the exploding postules' clouds, tiny numbers filled my screen, and my frame rate was, apparently, halved by one of the spores' viral procs. While the results were visually impressive, that is also the only way in which they were impressive. It took 74 exploding ninja stars to kill the first heavy gunner. I had to recast spores twice, because somehow the chain "broke" and all my spores disappeared. I took ~500 health damage (I never took cover, but I was running and jumping to reduce their accuracy). At this point I called it quits because it obviously wasn't working; a bunch of the other heavy gunners still had half their life bars left.

 

I'd also like to point out that I repeated this test with 6x level 60 heavy gunners, and the results are basically the same - a couple miasma's (solely for stagger, the damage is trash) and a couple reloads to wipe them with the sancti tigris, "all the ammo I have plus some" to wipe them with the hand-held rocket salvo + spore.

Edited November 6, 2015 by DSMatticus

[SwartJas]

If this is such a huge nerf why then at the end of the game using only her skills do i have the most kills and the most damage. If it was a huge dps nerf then this would no longer be possible

If you had an Equinox in that party you would not be the top damage dealer. I am using Equinox as an example here, beacuse of the charge mechanic, its not an instant nuke, but for the same set up time and cost you get a better net effect.

 

To sound cliche, Red Veil gives you free viral procs(provided you use their weapons/mods), so any frame can do it make use of the instant halving of enemy HP at a range that is nothing to scoff at. I will agree that the spores spread very easily, but as others have mentioned, there are easier ways to effects that double your DPS.

 

 

The old miasma was a great ability, it was a low cost high damage, short CC, in my opinion it was a good example of an "Oh S#&$" ability. You don't have that with Saryn anymore. We now HAVE to build her a specific way if you want to be as efficient at killing and using energy as possible, couple this with the reduction in survivability, due to people using an augment that should have been part of molt from the beginning, and you end up with a sub par frame that doesn't fullfil any role that can not be done better by another frame.

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

Yea, from the looks of it some like the rework but for the most, its not liked. Just revert the changes and go back to the drawing board, this rework clearly wasn't thought out. It went from spamming 4 to spamming 1 and 2, literally no need to use 3 and 4. If anything keep 1 and 2 but completely rework 3 and 4 and give 2 innate regen.

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

That's not what Im getting at. We dont want an entire frame that makes CP obsolete. 

We already have a frame that makes energy pies obsolete.

Im looking at you trinity.

[Racter]

I just came here to post about this, sad someone beat me to it. You should make some tweaks to your build IMO (I'm using this http://goo.gl/O5J2Bu and you actually don't even really need the Blind Rage, could throw literally anything other than Narrowminded in there and still be good to go). This way the spores go pretty much everywhere (slightly greater range than pre nerf Miasma, spread centered around where the spore popped). I tested this in the opera house room (shown in video), the white tree room (two levels with the hole in the middle, enormous, recently added to mobile defense) and was easily hitting pretty much the entire room with spores at once. You only have to recast it after everything dies and it does a pretty obscene amount of damage. Duration isn't that crucial, I ran all the way down to 25% and all the way up to 183%. 25% still worked fairly well it was just occasionally difficult to get the chain started. I would say anywhere from 50-100% is solid, anything over that is a waste. Range is by far the most important factor. I also tried a Gas Ignis, but found it to be quite a bit weaker than the Hikou P for this.

 

Ignore her other 3 abilities entirely and try this out, trust me. You can even get the HP up to ~67% and run a gas status build. If it procs, that should spread as well via the spores, though I didn't stay long enough to find out as this was still easily obliterating packs of level 80 mobs. I don't really think it'll work well for Draco just because of the way the spawns are placed, but just about any other actual mission it's ridiculously good.

 

Retry your test with 20 Heavy Gunners, or better yet go run an actual mission where you can easily get more than 20 in a cluster. It increases exponentially in strength based on the number of mobs present. Weird that you had an issue with the chain breaking, I did ~15 runs working out what I wanted exactly in terms of build and don't recall seeing that once, but I was doing missions rather than Sims so had more mobs to work with at any given time. I was also throwing out 3 at a time to get the party started faster.

 

The new Miasma sucks, the dependence on her 1 and 3 (or 2+1) to make it do more damage is neat on paper but doesn't really work effectively in the actual game and it's a nightmare to mod for. Spore bombing with Concealed Explosives is easy to set up and is super easy to use.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Racter0325

[SaucyTuckermax]

Saryn has been NERFED to the ground...End of story...I can't believe how many people are trying to argue about this. There is no reason at all why I should have to cast 2 abilities before the ulti one actually does something besides completely suck. Change her back DE...

[Xarteros]

Certain people need to stop complaining that:

~'Augment mods are hard to get'. They are only hard to get if you actively avoid the various options of player trade or syndicate farming. Don't complain about not wanting to use the options we already have

~'Saryn is no longer a "nuke" frame'. No frame should only have one ability of any serious use, and any warframe that does needs some serious love. You can build heaps of frames for nuking, but it shouldn't be their only/entire function

~'Pressing multiple buttons is too hard'. What you ought to be complaining about is that the extra effort of setting up ability combos isn't rewarding enough, not that it shouldn't exist at all. Skill should always be rewarded over noobery.

~'Warframe has no place for DoT'. If you attack an entire room with effective DoT and clear it in 30 seconds, it's basically the same as spending 30 seconds to sprint around one-shotting the enemies there. What you should be arguing is that the changes aren't effective enough, not that they shouldn't function as DoT's.

~'Spore needs soft-targeting'. It actually already has soft-targeting, in case you haven't actually tried Saryn recently. You can, however, feel free to argue about the effective soft-targeting range or that it should have AoE/cone based casting

~'Melee is useless'. Anyone trying to argue that Saryn can't utilise Toxic Lash because melee is 'bad' has never used Melee properly. Melee can easily be one of the most dependable sources of high damage in the game, and having a melee damage buff ability is far from useless.

~'The entire rework needs to be reverted'. No, there is a lot of great potential in the rework that can fix Saryn from being so useless and boring. Try to fix the changes to make them better instead of demanding they restart the entire thing, because you're not helping anyone achieve anything.

Easy fixes

Stats:

~Either boost health back up to normal and keep the increased armour as is (keeping her as a slow tanky frame) to compensate the increased need for melee action, or increase her speed and revert her health/armour values to the previous settings (making her a bit less armoured, but faster and just as healthy)

~Increase power strength of all abilities (Melee damage boost of Toxic Lash in particular) to make it more worthwhile to sacrifice duration/efficiency mods for a bit of extra strength (currently boosting strength just isn't worth the loss). I'm not talking ridiculous amounts, but compared to the base strength of other damage-frames, she's pretty low.

~Increase base range of all abilities to make it more feasible to sacrifice a bit of range for other mods. Currently, her range is so low that increased range is mandatory for basically every possible build. If she's going to become a plague-spreading caster-themed frame, she needs comparable range.

Abilities:

~Spore: Casting spore with no target needs to lay a spore on yourself (but visually smaller, to make it less visually crowding). This means you can wear spores like a sort of armour, spreading to enemies if they burst them with damage, allowing you to continue spreading spores without always directly targeting enemies. Casting Molt needs to transfer any spores on your body to the Molt, instead of forcing you to re-cast more on the Molt. 

DE need to make it so spores burst from enemy death are at normal range, while spores ruptured by Toxic Lash or direct shots are at increased range, to reward skill more.

~Molt: As mentioned above, Molt needs to shed any Spores that Saryn has cast on herself, which then function as normal. Molt should scale off Saryn's shields/health/armour, as well as power strength. Molt could do more damage with an increased range based on how quickly it dies (based on percentage of remaining duration), so even if it is getting one-shot by enemies, it's at least doing more against them at a larger range. 

~Toxic Lash: Needs to apply to nearby allies, like War Cry. Must be re-castable, so you can re-cast it for allies without needing to wait for its duration to end. This makes Saryn much more of a team player, giving allies a damage buff. It also means that allies can help burst Saryn's spores and continue spreading viral procs

Instead of a blocking bonus, Toxic Lash should give Saryn (and affected allies) a small regeneration effect based on the ticks of the Toxin procs each attack inflicts. This means stacking heaps of toxin procs also stacks a fair amount of health regeneration and makes Saryn awesome for team play, while also compensating her own survivability issues. As toxin procs end on enemy death, so would the regeneration, so you would need to keep engaging new enemies to keep the healing up, preventing it from being OP. Saryn's passive 25% boost to status duration means she would potentially regen more out of each Toxic Lash proc than her allies using other warframes

~Miasma: Needs to fill the area with a cloud, instead of only affecting enemies present at the time. Any enemy inside the cloud or who later enters it needs to be stunned initially, with a random chance to be stunned by each tick of damage. This gives her back a bit of CC which adds to her survivability and her usefulness in a team. Damage needs to be stackable, so multiple casts of Miasma can turn choke points into DoT death traps, leaving Saryn free to use her other abilities instead of spamming 4 so frequently. If an enemy leaves the Miasma zone(s), they need to continue to take the damage over time for the remaining duration(s), otherwise the damage would be negligible. 

Probably most importantly, Miasma needs to go back to doing corrosive procs per tick. Her damage is otherwise laughable because although base corrosive damage is useful, high-armoured enemies just scale up so ridiculously at high levels.



With these changes, Saryn has methods of mild-healing and boosting team-mates, without overshadowing the more support-focused frames. She gains a more solid role in a team, being able to lay down Miasmas to protect against close-range enemies and guard choke points or defence points. She can reduce enemy health and armour with her viral and corrosive procs, she has a bit of CC for emergencies and better support for more diverse mod builds. The changes from the rework become much smoother and easier to use, since she can stack spores up on herself prior to engaging in combat and spread them by enemy shots or by using Molt at will. Molt becomes more survivable at late game, and becomes more potent if it does end up being destroyed prematurely.
 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Xarteros

[bubbabenali]

Saryn has been NERFED to the ground...End of story...I can't believe how many people are trying to argue about this. There is no reason at all why I should have to cast 2 abilities before the ulti one actually does something besides completely suck. Change her back DE...

Won't happen. I try to find a build that works for me and put her to the Limbo shelve.

For now I just have to much fun with Ember + Ignis.

If you found irony in this post you've been here for more than a year.

[Racter]

^ IS RIGHT

 

100% viral proc is reallllly strong.  

 

The viral proc is only half of why it's good, it's the fact that you can get 9? 10? spores per mob to detonate instantly multiple times per second. Against one single mob, that's ~450 per explosion before bonuses, which again, can happen multiple times per second.

 

Look at the other thread for more details https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/557115-breaking-the-new-saryn-what-nerf/

Edited November 6, 2015 by Racter0325

[SilentMobius]

Nerf, I don't really care about miasma, but the reduction on EHP is a real issue for me, nothing in the new kit increases her survivability and it relies on using a span of abilities limiting energy availability for life strike and delaying the time-to-kill resulting in even more damage making it's way through.

 

I'm all for the armour increase but the base health needs to go back or even go further up than it was IMHO. DE want us to be using melee weapons (for lash) then we need the survivability to match.

 

Once the survivability is back up I'll be happier.

[fatpig84]

They fixed Spore.

Good going.

 

Now she can go back to playing spam spore/venom + molt aggressively like she used to.

But better. Now that is a buff.

[Xarteros]

I stopped reading when OP said the build depended on using explosive weapons to detonate the spores.

I don't have to use specific weapons to get good damage out of most other warframes, same should go for Saryn.

[TheBrsrkr]

Couldn't just use the mega thread for this?

[rawr1254]

I stopped reading when OP said the build depended on using explosive weapons to detonate the spores.

I don't have to use specific weapons to get good damage out of most other warframes, same should go for Saryn.

Yea cause valkyr and excalibur dont have weapons that make their skills better. Volt benefiting from crit weapons. ember benefitting from heat. banshee from crit weapons. bless trin needing a glaive. but yea we hate all those frames then

[RayPerth]

Buff: molt + spores debuff + miasma single cast damage

rework: synergy skilled

nerf: miasma DPS + time consuming combo

 

win

 

HP+armor+energy was never my concern.

Edited November 6, 2015 by lazy529

[Judgebanks]

. banshee from crit weapons.

Do you even play this game?

[DraccoDoom]

I dont think it's either a buff or a nerf. saryn imo is still the same, does the same thing, except now you need more buttons to do it

And way more energy.

[Ins.]

It would be cool if molt also acted as a range increaser to miasma, most people blabbing that you do more damage now than before dont realize you loose a ton of range.

 

As in, you cast molt, and if you cast miasma in range of molt, molt detonates and increases miasma range. Would be awesome.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ins.

[rawr1254]

Do you even play this game?

Yea cause those million numbers everybody brags about comes from regular dmg. Why do you think most banshee players use sybaris

[Judgebanks]

It's a nerf.

[Pride]

I wish I knew what the blast radius of the Hikou was, but it's an obscenely useful tool with Spores, because if you see a group of them you can just aim the ground or the wall nearest to them and get more hits off. Like aiming a Rocket launcher, when aiming at a ground or wall it's the splash that nets you kills. if you aim right at them you can hit, but you can also miss.

 

Not to mention, the Hikou makes a laughingstock of the nullifiers, using their shield as a wall to mount explosions to pop spores.

actually even better if you build a toxin hikou hitting a single target directly will make the spores spread the toxin it procs to all the effected enemies because victory is sweet and expanding your damage up to twofold even further sounds pretty good eh?

[asarasa]

plz change back her hp ( now she need more hp its goes good with 3)

[RiouHotaru]

Why do I have to keep saying this in every discussion about Saryn? Every single one? A viral proc is a 2x damage multiplier. Do you want to know what other damage multipliers look like in this game?

 

Nova's mprime: 2x damage multiplier. Covers entire map in a single cast, no extra work required. Crazy good built-in slow debuff. Comes on a frame with actual scaling power damage (antimatter drop).

 

Banshee's sonar: Literally can't go lower than 2x damage multiplier in any build; usually 5x+. Covers huge area in a single cast, no extra work required. Requires actual aiming or an AoE weapon. Comes on a frame with crazy good crowd control.

 

Rhino's roar: Easily 1.9x multiplier without seriously hurting duration or range, so yeah you can give all allies within 25m +90% damage for 40 seconds. Comes on a frame with acceptable crowd control, and whose upcoming rework will probably be an actual buff.

 

Saryn requires as much work as a resonance Banshee to keep up her damage multiplier trick, but for all that extra work still only gets results on par with Rhino and Nova - and all three of those frames have very good tricks above and beyond damage multiplication, whereas Saryn has... uhh... huh.

 

Because your examples are sort of apples and oranges.

 

Nova: Antimatter Drop requires significant effort to boost and while it has AoE it lacks Spore's potential chain hopping.  Also, M.Prime is an Ult (thus costing more energy) that requires you to Maximize duration to give it the range it needs  Not to mention it's animation time.

 

Banshee:  Sonar has a travel-time like M.Prime, requires aiming at specific points, and needs an entire augment to gain Spore's ability to propagate to other targets.  Still requires more energy.

 

Rhino: Roar is a decent buff but unless they made it recastable, you have to make sure everyone is in the area.  Also it's a #3, costing 75 energy at base, and has a much longer animation.  Also, enemy debuff ability isn't necessarily equitable to a party buff ability.  Spore not only inflicts damage, it ALSO inflicts the proc.

[Pride]

Lol at one point in time I seen a mag get most dmg and kills in void

mag shield polarize kicks so much &#! in the void tho all those little shield drones? yah they are floating bombs that turn any ally they buff into a bomb not to mention moas are 90% shield thus they are BIG bombs it might not be pure corpus where its a guaranteed map clear but its still 90% as good

[Zamary]

Remove Toxic Lash ffs. It does not fit her AT ALL. We have good melee frames now, you do not need to keep forcing more.