Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Ceryk]

Saryn uses a lot of energy to set up her combos. This would just make it impossible for her to maintain her energy usage. And it would be stupidly OP so the damage would get cut way down by the devs and I'm pretty sure that's not what you're after.

And to be perfectly honest, there isn't a whole lot of reason to use Miasma outside of emergencies now in the first place unless you are intentionally trying to keep playing her the old way, which just doesn't seem energy efficient.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ceryk

[i_Lex]

no reason for a change again just cast mold put spores on it hit 4 and done.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

Where's the Both/ Neither option?

Because I think both kinda happened.

My bad.

[DSMatticus]

she actually pushes out more DPS than all frame when it come to end game really, she can viral proc the entire room within a 2-3 second and reduce all enemy hp by half

I may actually start foaming at the mouth.

 

Listen. Viral procs are a 2x damage multiplier. They double your effective DPS. That is what they do. Roar builds already did this. MPrime already did this, while slowing the enemy. Sonar builds, if you can aim, already did this and way, way, way more. If you could press a button and put a viral proc on every enemy on the map, then... you would have an ability that is on par with several other abilities already in the game! Saryn does not have some uniquely scaling ability. Abilities like this have existed the entire time, and this is apparently your first time noticing. Or maybe you just never realized that +100% damage for you is identical to -50% health for enemies. I don't know. Whatever. If you say things like "she actually pushes out more DPS than all frame [sic]..." because of her viral procs, then you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

The only thing thing people have discovered to do with new Saryn that might go anywhere is exponential spore stacking; get a bunch of enemies together, put spores on them, and then use an AoE weapon with a high fire rate explosive weapon (like hikou prime + concealed explosives) to pop every single spore with every single explosion. Sure, individual spores are trash, but if you could pop hundreds or thousands of spores per second it could add up to real damage. Unfortunately, I've tried this in the simulacrum and in actual missions and the real DPS is substantially lower than the theoretical DPS (though I think if you combine it with a hardore toxin proc it would be workable, since toxin procs are added to the spore burst damage). But let's be honest, even if someone gets this working as real DPS comparable to alternatives it's going to be nerfed; it wrecks frame rate even harder than Mirage.

Edited November 6, 2015 by DSMatticus

[_Je_Suis_Bruxelles_]

Theoretically Saryn got buffed.

Practically she joined Limbo and Equinox;frames with great potential but so complicated to use in a fast pace game.

Personally I used Saryn only to speedrun certain missions,like t4 ext.

Now ,I'll switch to Excal,no loss there.

I would like to think that people with more time and patience,will uncover Saryn's strenghts ,but I fear that she will become a rare encounter once this update blows over.

No matter the numbers,most players will choose a straight forward frame.

[RealPandemonium]

What falsehoods?

a quarter second stun and a "nuke" that is about as powerful as Volt's. 

Miasma's stagger lasts at least: 4 seconds on humanoids, 3 on most Infested, and 2 on Chargers (drones are not affected.)

 

Current Miasma base damage after full synergy is (350 * (3 +1)) * 3 = 4200 at base duration, where increasing duration increases total damage and lowering duration lowers total damage.  Old negative duration Miasma had 4500 base damage.  With a raw damage comparison, new miasma is a 10% damage nerf, but since the enemies are Viral procced (and new spore pretty much guarantees that this will be the case since it procs 100% reliably and can actually be used alongside Miasma in the same build now,) new Miasma is effectively dealing 8400 base damage, which is an 86% increase over the old Miasma (assuming that you weren't Viral proccing the whole group by some method.) 

 

Overload base damage is 1012 but is increased by various factors, including headshot-eligibility, proc overlap, and up to 1/3 damage increase depending on how close enemies are to the cast point (this is before any environmental electronics are accounted for.)  Unless Overload is cast under optimal conditions (barring electronics,) it is unlikely to match Miasma's output. 

 

 

You do realize that Saryn could spread viral before 17.10, right?  'if you count the viral proc it's actually 86% stronger' is a blatant lie, as if you were playing against high-level enemies you were already viral procing them before using miasma.

A 2 second Venom didn't really allow for effective spore distribution and didn't have guaranteed procs, either.  Using spore, I was able to reliably spread Viral status to the entirety of Draco, from end to end, with one cast of Spore that cost me 6.25 energy.  A 2 second Venom could not have done that remotely reliably. 

 

Out of curiosity, what mechanism were you using to spread Viral procs with a 2 second Venom?

 

One last thought: I especially like how it was apparently wrong for Saryn to nuke whole groups in a second while its perfectly okay for Excalibur to do the same. 

 

In order for Old (aka, good) Miasma to function, Saryn needed to get into close proximity to a group. This is still true, except that now, Miasma is mostly a garbage nuke worth about as much as Overload, with a stun lasting a fraction as long as Sonar or Chaos. 

 

But Excalibur? You put him in the same proximity to the same group? One, two energy waves, and the group is dead. In a blink. In the cast of one ability for 25 or so energy. 

 

Of course, Saryn has to work just to get within Miasma range of a group. Use her decoy, spam Spores, dodge and juke. All to get within range to launch a Miasma you hope will kill something.

 

Meanwhile, Excalibur just blinds the room, Dashes into the group - killing on the way - and nukes them all with Exalted Blade energy waves, taking down straggers with his Javelins. 

 

None of which is to say Excalibur needs a nerf. Quite the contrary. This should be the new bar frames need to MEET. Instead, DE is nerfing other frames into the ground at Excalibur's feet and I for one would like to know why. 

Excalibur's balance see-saw is DE's greatest debacle in my eyes.  Current Excal is ridiculous, and no one who wants the game to make sense should condone his design.  Level XXX enemies is not Warframe.  It's Exploitframe.   Let's get back to real gameplay. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Synitare]

Again you people are ONLY looking at miasma. You have to look at all the numbers. with a viral proc with that health itd already have done 25000 dmg in a millisecond how is that a nerf?

 

I already debunked your blatantly false claims in another thread. Might as well post it here too since you seem to still be trying to pass if off as being true:

 

So ridiculously false. If you have max efficiency, then you absolutely do not have max duration. If you have max duration, you don't have max range. If you have max range, you don't have max strength. If you have max strength, you have neither max effiency nor duration.

 

Trying to max strength and duration would net you the following (just quick math using numbers from the wiki and warframe builder, might be small errors):

 

Miasma 4678 total x 4 (200% from toxin and viral procs, and counting the viral status as an additional 100%) = 18750 @ 125 energy

Spore 28x3 damage per second over 38.2 seconds = 3254  @ 31.25 energy

Molt 568 + 284 per tick for 9 ticks = 3124 @ 62.5 energy

 

Total damage over 38.2 seconds = 25128 for 218.75 energy. This also has a maximum range of ~5 meters.

 

Looks like a nerf to me.

 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Synitare

[akira_him]

Miasma's stagger lasts at least: 4 seconds on humanoids, 3 on most Infested, and 2 on Chargers (drones are not affected.)

Current Miasma base damage after full synergy is (350 * (3 +1)) * 3 = 4200 at base duration, where increasing duration increases total damage and lowering duration lowers total damage. Old negative duration Miasma had 4500 base damage. With a raw damage comparison, new miasma is a 10% damage nerf, but since the enemies are Viral procced (and new spore pretty much guarantees that this will be the case since it procs 100% reliably and can actually be used alongside Miasma in the same build now,) new Miasma is effectively dealing 8400 base damage, which is an 86% increase over the old Miasma (assuming that you weren't Viral proccing the whole group by some method.)

Overload base damage is 1012 but is increased by various factors, including headshot-eligibility, proc overlap, and up to 1/3 damage increase depending on how close enemies are to the cast point (this is before any environmental electronics are accounted for.) Unless Overload is cast under optimal conditions (barring electronics,) it is unlikely to match Miasma's output.

A 2 second Venom didn't really allow for effective spore distribution and didn't have guaranteed procs, either. Using spore, I was able to reliably spread Viral status to the entirety of Draco, from end to end, with one cast of Spore that cost me 6.25 energy. A 2 second Venom could not have done that remotely reliably.

Out of curiosity, what mechanism were you using to spread Viral procs with a 2 second Venom?

Excalibur's balance see-saw is DE's greatest debacle in my eyes. Current Excal is ridiculous, and no one who wants the game to make sense should condone his design. Level XXX enemies is not Warframe. It's Exploitframe. Let's get back to real gameplay.

off topic, the only thing ridiculous about exca is the shockwave range of exca is infinite, I wish its damage fades as it travels

[DSMatticus]

Miasma's stagger lasts at least: 4 seconds on humanoids, 3 on most Infested, and 2 on Chargers (drones are not affected.)

Part of the problem is that miasma's stagger is not very reliable. For example, if you cast miasma next to a heavy gunner - even if your miasma drops before their slam (and you're host, so lag isn't an issue) - they will perform their slam and come unstaggered. Given that miasma's range is trash and less people are running overextended (hell, given how mod hungry Saryn is less people are running stretch) people are having to get closer than ever before to use miasma as a stagger, and so they're noticing enemies that aren't getting staggered because they were already in some kind of animation that gave them immunity to miasma's stagger for some reason.

 

I don't know if that was always there and I never noticed it, or if that's a new thing, but it's quite touchy as far as CC goes and not particularly practical for getting up close and personal.

[Sloan441]

In terms of effectiveness and playability, she got buffed.

 

In terms of survivability, she got nerfed.

 

The health nerf was totally unwarranted, especially if the light of her being now a melee focused warframe. The armor buff doesn't even begin to make up for it. Her health needs to be reverted or her armor seriously buffed to get her back to where she was.

 

She is more fun to play, but even with regenerative molt it's difficult to keep her going in face of very high level enemies when you have to melee for maximum effectiveness.

[XxCurtennoxX]

Honestly, I find it the same as most frames, even with the armor, when enemies get stronger, that armor won't really matter much, and what gets me killed isn't the lack of damage mitigation, but that I'm too busy cooking up the ideal pathogen (gotta proc that Toxin before using the spores) that I end up having to many enemies up close. In Triton for Example I only notice her Survivability being meh when Corpus Tech start snipping me from far (that Supra really hurts, it hurts a whole lot more than the heavy gunners and at higher levels those things won't forgive you for not being lightning fast), which makes it harder to cook up the pathogen that I want when I need it, so I have to either spot them and kill them right away or use Miasma for 3 extra seconds.

 

I guess that they went with "you are not a nuke anymore, you are not required to jump into the middle of the enemy mob anymore, you are now a beefy caster with a different Miasma, so, less HP".

Molt could offer some kind of mitigation but I don't think it should be the whole duration, but a few seconds as in a way to get out without certain death if the enemy doesn't switch to firing at Molt. But only because Molt is iffy, many times the enemies won't even look at it and will go past it straight to you, so the whole point of using is wasted, and then at higher levels it just pops too fast (while in lower levels sometimes you want it to pop and enemies aren't strong enough, so you have to cast it again to pop it).

Funny part is, you spend more time near enemies than before, so you infact need MORE hp.

[(PSN)Cwellann]

+1

 

Why hasn't DE forced you into a cubicle yet?

[Hammahness808]

I'll just start off by saying I don't care that Miasma doesn't kill most enemies any more with just a push of the button, even though, that's what drew me to her when I was MR8. Overall, I like the new changes and use spore and molt very heavily now and rarely fire off miasma anymore. However, I still think there need to be tweaks and changes to her abilities and would like to offer multiple suggestions.

 

Before continuing, would just like to offer some opinion on Dots in general. Warframe in it's current state is quite quick-paced. Dots, being damage over time don't really follow this pace. Players are generally trying to kill enemies as quick as possible (to finish the mission, farm, or as a form of defense), running through enemies to an objective, or trying to defend themselves from not being killed. Anything longer than past the 5-6 second range for damage, wouldn't really be relied upon, especially if it isn't incredibly high damage or didn't offer some form of defense/crowd control (stuns).

 

That being said...

 

Spore

I feel like is a great ability at the moment but don't think it would make it overpowered to give it a 3.5m or 4m ability radius on the affected target zone. To give it a chance to cover more than one enemy with it upon first cast.

 

 

Molt

It has the ability to remove status effects on self and provide a means to draw enemy fire and attention away from one's self. That being said, with it's amount of health, around level 40+, it dies very quickly and doesn't output a whole lot of damage. It should scale slightly better to higher levels. I have a couple of suggestions

 

-Increase the base range of the explosion (15-18m?) and give it a nice stagger effect to all affected enemies, so that even when it dies quickly at higher levels, it provides some relief from attackers.

-Have health of Molt scale to Saryn's mods like Redirection, Vitality, and Steel Fiber.

-I've seen it so many times suggested now, a 3-4 second invulnerability stage.

 

Toxic Lash

As far as I can tell, the damage, status chance, cost, and elemental combination on the ability is fine. However, forcing players to move to a melee stance (switching to melee weapon) in order to access block and therefore access the damage reduction on this ability, forcing them to get into melee range to deal damage, while giving it only a 40% damage reduction base on block is a bit weak. Many other frame abilities that cost 50 energy provide much better damage reduction. My suggestions below are for increasing the damage reduction in different ways

 

-Add an innate Reflex Guard at 10-15%, so not switching to melee still gives damage reduction.

-Split the damage reduction to 20% to Saryn while ability is active and keep the additional 20% to blocking.

-Innate chance of releasing toxic fumes that stun a nearby enemy for 1-2 seconds, having a 50% chance of releasing on a nearby (10m?) enemy every second.

-Simple way, increase the base damage reduction when blocking to something much higher.

 

 

Miasma

Now, to the ability that I really want to dig into, the 4th and generally "Ultimate!" ability. Usually expensive and meant to change the situation of the fight to the frame's advantage drastically. Miasma having no CC and meant to be a pure damage ability is fairly expensive or weak compared to other frame's similar abilities. The range is generally low and for the lack of defense/crowd control, it does poor damage by itself. Yes, the option to increase the damage through ability combinations makes it strong but, other frames don't have to do the same amount of work to be able to rely on their ability to do consistent and high damage.

 

It's total damage was reduced with the change and with the different status combinations, we can make Miasma do up to +200% of it's original damage before cast. However, straight damage abilities don't scale well and this method takes slightly longer to setup than casting it immediately. Giving the enemy time to receive more damage from allies or for them to damage you more. I think it should be more than just a straight damage ability and compared to other frame's AoE damage abilities, it's not worth the 100 energy cost. Below are some of my suggestions to change this.

 

-To better compare to similar AoE damaging abilities (for near the same cost), increase base range to 20m. It's better for me to reserve the energy I would spend on Miasma and just cast spore on a few opponents and hit them with weapons like Kohm, Amperex, Atomos, Ignis, or Synoid Simulor.

 

-To make it a better "High cost" ability and worth it's high cost, allow it to stagger enemies for each damage tick or debuff enemies by reducing affected enemy movment speed and damage.

 

-Miasma could benefit from being changed into a toggle ability, since it would have the bonus damage from status effects more actively. With that said, it would be awesome to add a corrosive proc chance (20%?) per second for better damage scaling.

Edited November 6, 2015 by TGKazein

[djternan]

The spirit of the rework is great.  I like the idea of the abilities all working together and making each other stronger.  In practice though there are a few issues.

 

Problems

1) Energy

The abilities are fairly expensive if you want to get all of the combos going.

 

2) Survivability

Saryn has Molt which is OK but isn't guaranteed to save you.  You may still take damage from bombard rockets or the stray enemy that isn't as attracted to Molt as they are to Saryn.  At low levels this is fine but at higher levels this ability is a bit too iffy to rely on it for the entirety of your survivability.  Yes, the augment is nice but all it should be is a nice addition, not a necessity.  She even has a melee exclusive skill, Toxic Lash, so she should be more tanky than she is now.

 

3) Scaleability

Spore continues to be incredibly effective at any level but her other abilities, Miasma in particular, tend to fall a bit short.

 

 

Solutions (Changes/Additions to Abilities)

1) Give Spore a kind of stagger when it attaches to an enemy.  I'm thinking the same animation as when a target gets hit with Energy Vampire from Trinity.  This would give Saryn better CC since a single cast of Spore can end up infecting entire rooms.

 

2) Make Molt invulnerable to enemy attacks for a small amount of time (either a couple seconds or a percentage of its total duration).  This will prevent it from being killed in one shot.  This is also the same mechanic Frost's Snow Globe uses.

 

2.5) Make Molt act like Quick Thinking.  When you're in range of Molt (the same range as it's explosion radius) fatal damage is transferred to Molt the same way Quick Thinking would drain your energy.  This would give Saryn significantly better survivability.  I don't think this would be overpowered because it isn't complete invulnerability and it relies on Saryn being near Molt.  I don't know if Molt should be completely invulnerable to taking damage from this during its invulnerability period as mentioned in suggestion 2.  If Quick Thinking is also being used damage would be transferred to Molt first, when Molt dies then it would be taken from Saryn's energy pool.

 

3) When Toxic Lash breaks a spore on an enemy have it return 5 energy to Saryn.  This encourages the use of Toxic Lash to build energy for casts of Miasma and Molt.  Since none of her reworked abilities are particularly spammable easy energy gain won't be a problem.  With her added survivability from suggestion 2 and 2.5 this skill should stay viable with any melee weapon even in high level content.

 

4) The idea to make Miasma deal bonus damage to enemies that have toxin or viral procs was a great idea.  I'd like to take it one step further and say that in addition to dealing the bonus damage for each type of proc if an enemy is affected by BOTH procs Miasma would deal finisher damage to them.  This wouldn't have much of an effect on enemies in low level missions because their resistances don't play too much of a role.  This would, however, make Miasma much more viable in high level missions.  This isn't overpowered because it requires you to set up the combo to make full use of it.  The reward here would be great for the amount of work you put in to get it.

 

Edit:

Another suggestion I've seen pop up a few times is to have Molt HP and armor scale with Saryn's HP and armor mods along with strength mods.  This would also be a good change.  Molt is stationary so adding to its health and armor won't make the ability too powerful.

Edited November 6, 2015 by djternan

[mcryseria]

I agree with everything stated. I just want to add ability range to the list of problems since stretch (overextended to an extent) is mandatory for any build as well. Survivability is a problem because we're forced to use our abilities at close range in order to do significant damage. Molt should really have the same mechanic as Frost's Snow Globe (being invulnerable for a few seconds then scaling depending on the amount of damage it was dealt while invulnerable). Molt can't last 3 seconds versus enemies above level 30. Having to use 2-3 more abilities just to do significant damage takes a toll on our energy reserves. Energy cost for Toxic Lash and Miasma should be reduced by 25 points respectively or what you have stated about toxic lash returning energy. Some sort of CC on spore would really help the frame on higher level missions. I really hope that miasma could somehow have a 100% corrosive proc w/c is unstackable (-25% enemy armor only).

[mcryseria]

Saryn's current problems are energy cost, range and survivability. These suggestions are great.

[djternan]

I agree with everything stated. I just want to add ability range to the list of problems since stretch (overextended to an extent) is mandatory for any build as well. Survivability is a problem because we're forced to use our abilities at close range in order to do significant damage. Molt should really have the same mechanic as Frost's Snow Globe (being invulnerable for a few seconds then scaling depending on the amount of damage it was dealt while invulnerable). Molt can't last 3 seconds versus enemies above level 30. Having to use 2-3 more abilities just to do significant damage takes a toll on our energy reserves. Energy cost for Toxic Lash and Miasma should be reduced by 25 points respectively or what you have stated about toxic lash returning energy. Some sort of CC on spore would really help the frame on higher level missions. I really hope that miasma could somehow have a 100% corrosive proc w/c is unstackable (-25% enemy armor only).

 

You're right about range but I think it's only a problem with Miasma.  Increasing the range to 18 or 20m would be sufficient though.

 

Straight up energy cost reductions just seemed a little boring to me though it isn't necessarily a bad idea.  I thought that gaining energy from popping spores with Toxic Lash fit more with the new theme of abilities combining in different ways.

 

I agree that a corrosive proc from Miasma would be really nice and fit well.  Her other abilities are guaranteed to proc, Miasma should probably have that too.  Another thought I had was it might cool if it kept its corrosive damage type but dealt a gas proc to all enemies affected.

Edited November 6, 2015 by djternan

[Arghastar]

Why does it "need" this?

Edit: not trying to be rude, just trying to provoke creative discussion.

Ultimate not stack now, so this change not lower dmg or make Saryn OP again. If ultimate will be "always on" it'll free hand for something else, makes Saryn more mobile. That's why.

[taiiat]

Would it be op or no?

it would be very slow at stripping Armor, so no.

 

Multiple casts should be able to pull of "total armor removal".

at neutral Duration, to completely Strip the Armor of an Enemy, you'd need to cast it at minimum 7 times.

 

minimum 7 Corrosive Status to bring Armor down low enough where you'll realistically deal enough more Damage for it to matter.

minimum 11 Corrosive Status for their Armor to be mostly stripped, making that Lv100 Enemy feel more like a Lv60 Enemy give or take.

minimum 20 Corrosive Status for their Armor to be almost completely gone. at this point the Enemy should feel pretty squishy. 1% of original Armor.

24 Corrosive Status for their Armor to round down to 0%.

 

 

it's just flavor to add to the theme, not a feature that will see much use. but since it adds to the Theme, i say why not ofcourse.

 

could we make molt serve its purpose: to stand long enough so Saryn can recover?

use some strategy when you place Decoy Abilities, and they are extremely durable. because they attract attention without getting hit/getting hit very little.

 

Decoy Abilities are just one of the few Abilities in the game that actually asks the Player to use strategy to make them highly effective.

more Abilities should be like them.

because you're supposed to be using the Abilities and playing the game with the Abilities, the Abilities aren't supposed to be playing for you.

and if you press a button and results just suddenly happen, the Abilities are playing for you, you're not playing.

 

- - - - - 

 

Edit:

and i don't think i can be bothered to argue with derps about it after this but - the Damage Output of the Warframe is effective. if you only think of Warframes as one Ability with legs, then yes, a lot of things are terrible.

but they have 4 Abilities. actually use them.

i'm sure someone will quote me and try to explain with biased incorrect math as to why this or that needs to have it's Damage Multiplied 100fold.

but i'm not going to listen. all i can say is actually get some experience with the Warframe, so that you know what you're talking about.

Edited November 6, 2015 by taiiat

[Arghastar]

no reason for a change again just cast mold put spores on it hit 4 and done.

My idea not for dmg, just for gameplay

[Aeryes]

If you could do me a favor?

 

If you have a Sonicor, can you try it with your Saryn. It basically causes explosions, and ragdolls, and I'd be curious to know if it works well or gets in the way of how you use the spores on units.

 

Can confirm this basically explodes entire waves in a few shots. Any explosion weapon works but the sonicor definitely feels the best. :P Torid and Ignis are a lot of fun too and all three seem to be pretty damn effective when it comes to spreading spores on a big scale.

[Hammahness808]

Straight up energy cost reductions just seemed a little boring to me though it isn't necessarily a bad idea.  I thought that gaining energy from popping spores with Toxic Lash fit more with the new theme of abilities combining in different ways.

 

I agree that a corrosive proc from Miasma would be really nice and fit well.  Her other abilities are guaranteed to proc,

I can agree to this, related to the OP. However, instead of 5 energy per hit, have it increase the chance of an energy orb dropping from an enemy instead.

[Yutoka]

The New Saryn is bulS#&$.

[(PSN)Eluminary]

Warframe is a fast pace killing game, you can kill 10-15 things before you even get to the second tick, damage over time abilities are just not so great for this game so I'm in the Nerf camp. It's mostly due to transient fortitude IMO it made her miasma above the threshold of strength that made people complain on fourms too much about it. Basically she was god for 60ish and under enemies, which is a large part of the overall game except when doing long duration endless missions or trials.

I have a while before this gets to ps4 and I'll try it out I'll see if I can make a build that works for her but I'm guessing she's going to be out of my heavy rotation after this goes through but warframe has lots of frames to choose from nerf one ill just go to something else that's fun.

[Kiochy]

Molt may leave some bits of itself on saryn which boost her armor/health/takes damage like rhino's armor/...

 

the problem I'm facing is agaisnt lvl 60+ corpus/grineer I'm shot down Before I come up close. Once I'm close, the fight is fair.

 

molt helps but at level 70+ it's uneffective.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Kiochy