Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[akira_him]

Toxic Lash isn't "useless". I'm not sure you're understanding how to properly use the synergy between her abilities. In fact, Toxic lash is the biggest part of spreading viral across the entire map. ALL of her abilities are used now, not just Miasma. That does not make her a "one trick pony".

I don't need it to pop spores, since killing the mob/pop spore with a gun (you gonna need gun to kill anyway since miasma doesn't kill anymore) is much safer than going in melee, toxic lash is useless at its current state

Edited November 8, 2015 by akira_him

[Buzkyl]

Until you start playing any tower 2+ mission...

 

 

 

Halving enemy HP is useful through any point in the game, especially on higher levels. I said nothing about viral damage, i was talking abotu Viral procs

[akira_him]

Halving enemy HP is useful through any point in the game, especially on higher levels. I said nothing about viral damage, i was talking abotu Viral procs

Halving enemies HP is like a x2 multiplier of any damage, sure it is useful but it doesn't have to be Saryn

You can argue you can stack it with other frames' abilites, but Saryn offers the least to the team and she is the first one to be swap out from the squad

Trinity is almost a must in high level game with coordinated squad, you got 3 slots left to put all kinds of buffers there

next slot would be CC, most likely to be loki or nyx, 2 slots left if you use augmented loki

last 2 slots (for stacking buffs) could be any combination of mirage/nova/banshee/ember(yes, ember, accelerant has better damage bonus and more spamable than miasma for stun in a coordinated squad, and fire blast is a great panic button)

You may ask where's Saryn, no, no place for her since damage is irrelevant compared to guns in high level and her CC is crap compared to those 4 frames

Edited November 8, 2015 by akira_him

[Culaio]

There is as much grinding in the game as you want it to be. Yes, the engaging content is lacking, besides the Raids and a few quests (Natah and Darvo's were really cool though). That doesn't mean you have to do mndless stuff that don't amuse you ! You don't need the last Trinity prime part, the normal one works just as fine. You don't need to farm parts to gain ducats, if you play the Void for fun you'll get more than enough in two weeks, and most of what Baro sells nowadays is junk anyway.

 

Do learn about the lore ! Do play those archwing missions ! Do some pvp ! Nobody forces you not to :)

 

If you want, we can meet tonight (that would be like, in 12 hours for me) and we can have some fun together. ?

 

The thing is that I dont have that much time, around 2-3 hours a day, and only sometimes more,  to get ducats I must farm for primes and to farm for primes I need to farm for keys, many of which have give primes that are worth very little ducats, and lets not forget that RNG can really screw you over, for example did four runs on T3 capture(or mobile defense, I dont remember which) and out of those four runs three were formas >_>.

 

Another problem is that I am getting sick of looking at void title set, but must do missions there everyday to keep up with ducat demand every two weeks. I am hoping that new starmap will somehow fix it, sadly it looks like it wont show up in update 18 or even 18.5.

 

Dont think I will be on today later, I have more time during week then during weekend, but feel free to add me to friends, maybe we will both have some free  time eventually to play together :)

[achromos]

Halving enemies HP is like a x2 multiplier of any damage, sure it is useful but it doesn't have to be Saryn

You can argue you can stack it with other frames' abilites, but Saryn offers the least to the team and she is the first one to be swap out from the squad

Trinity is almost a must in high level game with coordinated squad, you got 3 slots left to put all kinds of buffers there

next slot would be CC, most likely to be loki or nyx, 2 slots left if you use augmented loki

last 2 slots (for stacking buffs) could be any combination of mirage/nova/banshee/ember(yes, ember, accelerant has better damage bonus and more spamable than miasma for stun in a coordinated squad, and fire blast is a great panic button)

You may ask where's Saryn, no, no place for her since damage is irrelevant compared to guns in high level and her CC is crap compared to those 4 frames

 

Being honest.  A Saryn with a Equinox is a good combination imo.  Constant Application of Damage through a easy to use combo...  Spore, and then Toxic lash.  if you are safe to be in melee range.  Which if you use Molt, that can take some heat off of you for a few seconds to get your combo started.  Once you do that, tap Miasma.  Very economic.

 

Or if you want to Viral proc a whole room, Cast molt, Hit it with spores, then hit miasma.  If you've brought a decent AoE weapon that has Gas for the element, you will be able to spread it through and being honest... I've done MORE damage as Saryn on average compared to Rework Mesa, and even against multiple mirages.  Why?  That Damage over Time is brutal once it's set off properly, however that takes a somewhat competent Saryn user and a team not trying to actively shut down said combo because can (and they can easily at lower levels... not so much at higher levels thankfully).

 

It's not a hard thing to do, it's not skill.  It's getting a rhythm down and learning it (some people cannot or wont).  However I believe Saryn has a slot in any raid, with my build I can take down level 70 Eximus Heavy Gunners (Spore + Toxic Lash with Molt to take a bit of the damage for me until I can lock the gunner down)  and while I'm doing that I am also Procing dots and spores on enemies in the same room and damaging them.  Then if I really want to get farther up the Damage numbers I can Use 4, deal around 2.5k per tic on heavy gunners (3.8k btw on unarmored same level). With my build I get 2 Ticks and .8 which is another 2kish damage right there.  7k+ Damage on EVERY enemy even with only -30% Armor to enemies through Corrosive Projection and this isn't including all the viral and toxic proc damage (that... does fall off a little once you get past level 70) however Viral still works fine in cutting enemy health in half regardless if it hits a level 25, or 250. 

 

Granted a ash can use bladestorm and wipe up those gunners too, and quicker and less costly  However I believe that this will be balanced out.  As in.. Ash will be brought down slightly, and Saryn will gain... hopefully some Efficiency because even at 70% efficiency it hurts.

 

I will admit, from playing as Saryn since her Rework that she needs:  Better efficiency, slightly more damage, and slightly better survivability either through her health/armor being raised (they want us to get into melee with toxic lash right?),  or her molt gaining a 2 or 4 second damage immunity like frost's bubble where it gains health on the damage it receives.  It may be because I never played the pre-rework Saryn, but I believe she is fine.

Edited November 8, 2015 by achromos

[bubbabenali]

Massivewide spreading Viral procs are always useful, always.

Ignis, your best friend.

Best combined with WoF (+400% damage) or Molecular Prime (+200% damage - just like a viral proc, wich will be aplied by the Ignis on top)

[Buzkyl]

Halving enemies HP is like a x2 multiplier of any damage, sure it is useful but it doesn't have to be Saryn

You can argue you can stack it with other frames' abilites, but Saryn offers the least to the team and she is the first one to be swap out from the squad

Trinity is almost a must in high level game with coordinated squad, you got 3 slots left to put all kinds of buffers there

next slot would be CC, most likely to be loki or nyx, 2 slots left if you use augmented loki

last 2 slots (for stacking buffs) could be any combination of mirage/nova/banshee/ember(yes, ember, accelerant has better damage bonus and more spamable than miasma for stun in a coordinated squad, and fire blast is a great panic button)

You may ask where's Saryn, no, no place for her since damage is irrelevant compared to guns in high level and her CC is crap compared to those 4 frames

 

This is the thing with people arguing the meta. No one wants to change the meta

 

Saryn has no place in a co-ordinated squad? Says who? Spore itself spreads viral procs far greater than any gun is capable off and Combine with Toxic lash is fully capable of melting higher level enemies. That does not take into consideration that Saryn could even ignore the possibility of using toxic and simply build a range+ duration build for spore to keep enemies across the map weakened long enough for them to be easily picked off by her allies.

After all, if it is a co-ordinated squad meaning all frames would be building off each other.  If Saryn doesn't fit your squad set up then that is fine, everyone has preference. However saryn is extremely viable because of Spore wide reaching effects.

 

For high level play i could comprise a team of  Trinity for energy generation (which itself is not mandatory because of restores), Saryn for Spores, Banshee for DPS boost and a Loki to simply remove guns.

[Necr0Ra1se]

Do you understand that with this topic you are killing further Saryn rework by saying "She's fine no work needed". She is still P4W and boring...No change in mechanic..Rework isn't finished.

[Frosty_2.0]

This whole combo path doesn't gel well with WF's energy system. It's not consistent, it's kinda either Everflowing with Restore-spam/Trin (and if she stops you suddenly have no energy flow) Or Reliant on random drops from lotsa enemy fodder.

In Mass Effect 3 Co-op, power combos work implicitly because casting is entirely based on cooldown efficiency (weapon loadout also determines cooldown efficiency), actually feels more natural & rhythmic than the stop/start of relying on old-skool pickups - very un-"space-mage-ninja" like IMO.
Also, most all ME3 combos are 2 steps to detonate and cross classes, so achievable through the intensity of combat.

Combos aside; I feel Saryn's slow movement speed more keenly than ever, and with little CC, her survivability is worse - especially in melee.

Moult, Spores/procs should not be dispelled when Saryn enters a nullifier field.

Toxic Lash/Contagion:
Should give an additive extension to melee range (let's say +1m for example). This would:
 - Boost ability to close on enemies, making up for her slow movement a little
 - Make short range weapons viable & enable them to proc better
 - Suit Saryn's theme & design, including theme of the ability itself ("Contagion" / "Lash")

Add a nice WF energy lash effect on there to and it'd be very apt (and show your actual strike range clearly)

Miasma should have greater stun/CC added to it, perhaps per tick + corrosive damage/proc. Seems to be good ideas for Miasma floating around this colossal thread, more recently though:

Make miasma a toggle ability with similar drain to ember. Tweak the damage a bit and how it increases with her 1 and 2.

 

Right now she is VERY energy hungry and the results aren't as good with a comparable frame with the same energy usage.

 

Making her Miasma a toggle ability with relatively low, yet constant damage that spikes with the use of her other abilities will keep the engagement without breaking the energy pool. The duration mods will also have more benefit

I like the aura concept spiking damage/additional-effects when her other abilities hit. Add a CC element like Banshee's Silence stun on entering the aura or stun ticks to all proc'd enemies.

[Enno69]

The thing is that I dont have that much time, around 2-3 hours a day, and only sometimes more,  to get ducats I must farm for primes and to farm for primes I need to farm for keys, many of which have give primes that are worth very little ducats, and lets not forget that RNG can really screw you over, for example did four runs on T3 capture(or mobile defense, I dont remember which) and out of those four runs three were formas >_>.

 

Another problem is that I am getting sick of looking at void title set, but must do missions there everyday to keep up with ducat demand every two weeks. I am hoping that new starmap will somehow fix it, sadly it looks like it wont show up in update 18 or even 18.5.

 

Dont think I will be on today later, I have more time during week then during weekend, but feel free to add me to friends, maybe we will both have some free  time eventually to play together :)

I get where you are coming from, but maybe you just need to relax a bit, it's ok if you're not at top level, if your mastery is not the highest or if you don't have the lastest item from the Void trader :)

 

Why are you so obsessed with ducats lol ? As I said earlier, there is really no necessity to farm intensively for them. Save them for something you really want, once, from the Trader, rather than everything you believe you need when you don't ;) What is your MR ? If you're a newer player I'd recommand you to simply focusing on your frames, your gear, and learning the mechanics of the game. If you're experienced then you know all that :)

 

I wil add you for sure.

[akira_him]

This is the thing with people arguing the meta. No one wants to change the meta

 

Saryn has no place in a co-ordinated squad? Says who? Spore itself spreads viral procs far greater than any gun is capable off and Combine with Toxic lash is fully capable of melting higher level enemies. That does not take into consideration that Saryn could even ignore the possibility of using toxic and simply build a range+ duration build for spore to keep enemies across the map weakened long enough for them to be easily picked off by her allies.

After all, if it is a co-ordinated squad meaning all frames would be building off each other.  If Saryn doesn't fit your squad set up then that is fine, everyone has preference. However saryn is extremely viable because of Spore wide reaching effects.

 

For high level play i could comprise a team of  Trinity for energy generation (which itself is not mandatory because of restores), Saryn for Spores, Banshee for DPS boost and a Loki to simply remove guns.

viral proc results time to kill an enemy without shield halved

which could be achievable by any damage buffing ability, the prime example would be a nova for her x2 multiplier

you don't what a trinity in your group, ok let's do this

say a squad of nyx or loki/banshee/nova/ember

lets swap Saryn into the squad,energy is not the concern since restores is a thing, and only damage from guns matter in this case and no formaing aura slot

Ember to Saryn: 250%mod-able heat bonus to 200% fixed damage bonus of all, fire proc stun 24/7 from WoF & 4s stun for accelerant to 4 second stun (could be provided by banshee), lost of knock-back

Banshee to Saryn: 500% mod-able damage bonus of all on weakspots to 200% fixed damage bonus of all, max. 10s stun to 4s stun (could be provided by ember), lost of knock-back

Nova to Saryn: keeps the 200% fixed bonus, 60s slow to 4s stun (could be provided by banshee&ember)

do you want me to list more, like full eclipse mirage?

even all of them using CP, Saryn still offers the least to the team

Saryn is kind of fun watching spores messing up around, but she is not even on par to others

 

another story in Raid because you have 8 slots, you can spam as much as you can as long as you have 4cp

Edited November 8, 2015 by akira_him

[SomeCrackHead]

lol why is toxic lash not a toggle..????

[Rhaenxys]

Would it be that much if they change the blocking damage reduction from toxic lash to a normal damage reduction like shatter shield as an example? i know every frame is unique but mesa has a powerful shield while is not even a melee frame, it has more sense to give a DR to saryn and it doesnt create any imbalances.

[SomeCrackHead]

LoL, you are not comprehending, she is still a one trick pony that DE doesn't want her to be

I don't hate they nerfed miasma, I hated that nothing was changed of being a one trick pony

 

edit: by that I mean miasma was the only useful ability, now being spore is the only useful ability

molt is still meh without an augment, and contagion is still crap since enemies come in all direction

but you can't just go ahead and tell us now only #1 is her useful ability as this is not a well argument considering we could say this for all the frames.

[Buzkyl]

viral proc results time to kill an enemy without shield halved

which could be achievable by any damage buffing ability, the prime example would be a nova for her x2 multiplier

you don't what a trinity in your group, ok let's do this

say a squad of nyx or loki/banshee/nova/ember

lets swap Saryn into the squad,energy is not the concern since restores is a thing, and only damage from guns matter in this case and no formaing aura slot

Ember to Saryn: 250%mod-able heat bonus to 200% fixed damage bonus of all, fire proc stun 24/7 from WoF to 4 second stun (could be provided by banshee), lost of knock-back

Banshee to Saryn: 500% mod-able damage bonus of all on weakspots to 200% fixed damage bonus of all, max. 10s stun to 4s stun (could be provided by ember), lost of knock-back

Nova to Saryn: keeps the 200% fixed bonus, 60s slow to 4s stun (could be provided by banshee&ember)

do you want me to list more, like full eclipse mirage?

Saryn is kind of fun watching spores messing up around, but she is not even on par to others

 

another story in Raid because you have 8 slots, you can spam as much as you can as long as you have 4cp

 

And here you are re-illiterate the same mantra.

 

Saryn does not fit my squad set hence she is not up to par with other frames. Which is exactly what you did when your reasoning Saryn into a squad, of your creation to show that she is not up to par with the frames you mentioned. That's fallacious reasoning as replace Saryn with Volt or even Chroma and the essence of your statement would remain the same. You speak of a well co-ordinated team however you simply glance over my Team in favor of your own.

 

As yourself said, The viral proc lessens the times taken to kill and any which is achievable though any damage-boosting ability. The same works inversely, I could replace a damage boosting frame with Saryn and simple add another CC frame or any other of my choosing. Modding for high levels is not as strict as you imply and there are alot of flexibility.

[akira_him]

but you can't just go ahead and tell us now only #1 is her useful ability as this is not a well argument considering we could say this for all the frames.

Most frames only have 1 useless skills default by the skill itself, most likely it is #1

I could list it all if you want me to, people spam one skill doesn't mean other skills are useless

smoke bomb is useful without blade storm

decoy is useful without invisibility/disarm

absorb is useful without chaos

but Saryn has like 2.5 of the skills that are pretty much useless on their own, both before (venom and contagion)and after(miasma and toxic lash) the revisit

[GhostLacuna]

Toxic Lash isn't "useless". I'm not sure you're understanding how to properly use the synergy between her abilities. In fact, Toxic lash is the biggest part of spreading viral across the entire map. ALL of her abilities are used now, not just Miasma. That does not make her a "one trick pony".

 

It is useless if:

 

1.You do not want to melee at all something the ability forces you to do.

2. you face any higher leveled grinner or corpus, since while you wack at one group the other spread out groups will kill the S#&$ out of you from range.

3. consider that its blocking portion is less at 194% power strength aka 78% block then the basic blocking of a dragon nikana which is 85%

4. its single target and once you start to swing you can no longer block.

5. Saryn has 1 single option for CC and that is her ultimate. a energy intensive extremly short lived stagger that you cant mod to extend the stagger for. Nor does it work reliable. Both heavy gunners and bombards are out of the stagger with a single ground pound. so it they do that as you cast miasma you are out of luck.

6. Her survivability is S#&$, Molt cant stand up to level 42 enemies more then 2 seconds not to mention enemies in real content.

the shorter molt lasts the less healing you get from regenerative molt since you know healing ends instantly when the molt is destroyed.

7. Consider that the melee boost from lash to your melee is crap. We talk about a modifier of 1.39 at 130% power strength, 1.56 at 185% power strength, 1.72 at 239% power strength. That is laughable. Its so low and the difference between 130% power and 239 power is so damn low at 0.33 that its not even worth modding for.

 

And as Akira_him said its faster, safer and costs less energy to just pop the spores with ignis or haku prime with conceled explosives to name just a few weapons that scales with spore better then toxin lash ever will.

Edited November 8, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[akira_him]

And here you are re-illiterate the same mantra.

 

Saryn does not fit my squad set hence she is not up to par with other frames. Which is exactly what you did when your reasoning Saryn into a squad, of your creation to show that she is not up to par with the frames you mentioned. That's fallacious reasoning as replace Saryn with Volt or even Chroma and the essence of your statement would remain the same. You speak of a well co-ordinated team however you simply glance over my Team in favor of your own.

 

As yourself said, The viral proc lessens the times taken to kill and any which is achievable though any damage-boosting ability. The same works inversely, I could replace a damage boosting frame with Saryn and simple add another CC frame or any other of my choosing. Modding for high levels is not as strict as you imply and there are alot of flexibility.

She is not on par with other frames hence she is not fitting my squad,don't swap my reasoning

Let's use your set up then, trinity/saryn/banshee/loki (cooperated squad using toxic or viral)

let's swap saryn out with:

Ember, you gain 24/7 fire proc, knock back and 250% or more damage boost (cooperated squad using heat + viral), and spamable stun

Nova, x4damage or x2 damge with 60s slow, no stun, but you have banshee

 

Saryn has better survivability? come on you have trinity in your squad

Why it has to be Saryn, don't tell me because of fun, if it is because of fun you don't have cooperated squad from the begining

Edited November 8, 2015 by akira_him

[akira_him]

-snip-

Equinox, I totally forget her

I guess her day form would synergise well with spores

and yes, Saryn will now have a place in raid (I didn't play raid but I went like level 80s in void), since you have 7 members to do the rest of the job

[Buzkyl]

Why it has to be Saryn, don't tell me because of fun, if it is because of fun you don't have cooperated squad from the begining

 

Why it has to be Saryn? Preference, some people would want her abilities over others.

 

So co-operative squads can't be fun and perform well at high levels.

 

 

Well i'm going to leave you with that rigid opinion of yours, which regardless of your opinion of her she is quite viable at high levels in team play because of Spore. If you don't want to see it yourself then I'm not going to continue any further.

 

Like i said earlier, no one wants to change the meta, people are very comfortable in thier cookie-cutter builds.

[akira_him]

 

Well i'm going to leave you with that rigid opinion of yours, which regardless of your opinion of her she is quite viable at high levels in team play because of Spore. If you don't want to see it yourself then I'm not going to continue any further.

 

Like i said earlier, no one wants to change the meta, people are very comfortable in thier cookie-cutter builds.

That's why I hated this revisit, still spamming 1 skill without any alternatives

Spores, Spores, Spores

like Miasma, Miasma, Miasma

I understand people have their choice base on their preference

but objectively Saryn is among the worst frame next to Mag (Mag actually kills BTW, and pull is a nice CC, in some case she is better than Saryn currently is) after the revisit

She needs more than spore

at least she has a nice skin of the price of 2 meals in my city and kills in draco by just spore

Edited November 8, 2015 by akira_him

[Rankii]

If anyone is still defending this rework, try this video on for size.

 

 

It's not necessesarilly the actual way she plays is useless, it's more the fact that the numbers don't back up any way to scale into late game.

 

as well as his thoughts on possibly fixing it

 

Common sense? Field testing? Realistic conditions? C-comparisons with a rework that actually WORKS?!

Hide this from the forums! It's too much truth for them to handle. The sheer amount of minds blown would cripple the playerbase for weeks.

[djternan]

I have taken Saryn into both high level Infested and T4 survivals. The problem was not her lack of energy, damage, or CC, it was her survivability. Sure, her single target DPS is not that great, but her damage increses EXPONENTIALLY as the group of enemies increases (Due to Spore transfering Toxin procs). It is her survivability that sucks. Without any sure-fire way to keep those Bombard rockets in check (Molt does in one rocket) Saryn has trouble being able to even doe her toxin thang because all of the time is spent spamming Molt to stay away from those rockets.

So... along with a EHP re-buff, she could really use a DR ability (and I hate DR abilities because I think they are lazy ways to increase survivability, but it would fit Saryn's role quite nicely).

I thought it would be cool to have Molt act like Frost's Snow Globe where it is invulnerable for a couple seconds and scales with damage received while invulnerable. Then I would want it to act like Quick Thinking for Saryn where Molt's health would take damage to stop lethal damage to Saryn.

That would be a bit more interesting than just slapping a 95% damage resistance onto Toxic Lash.

[GhostLacuna]

spore still only gives a 100% viral proc for a base duration of 6 seconds.  Sure its nice and all to lower health with 50% but that is the viral procs doing something any status weapon modded for viral can do just as well.

 

The only thing spore has going for it is how easily it can spread if the mobs stay close enough to each other.

 

Viral procs do nothing at all against shields and the pitiful damage from spore alone is actually halved against shields.

 

I am still pissed i didn't had the reaction time to take a screenshot of my 0 damage tick on spore against an enemy in the void.

 

Granted this was a build to make its damage as low as possible but still 0 damage ticks are hilarious.

 

Only if you combine spore+lash or spore plus toxin will you see any real damage.

 

so instead of press 4 and 2 from time to time, you now have press 1 and 3 then 2 at times to heal up.

 

incredible the complexity of using saryn is now mind blowing.

 

I press more buttons just by starting to buff up in any given mmo or rpg. 

 

skyrim is more complex and that is a dumbed down version of the elder scrolls.

[GhostLacuna]

Common sense? Field testing? Realistic conditions? C-comparisons with a rework that actually WORKS?!

Hide this from the forums! It's too much truth for them to handle. The sheer amount of minds blown would cripple the playerbase for weeks.

 

I know we must protect their innocence, otherwise they could learn something their favorite youtuber has not shown them.

 

I mean doing any testing yourself is bad right?

 

To bad i leaned critical thinking...

 

Spore+ lash works given certain parameters go beyond that and it starts to fall apart fast.